Healers need an overhaul

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I wouldn't consider how healers are currently designed to be "gameplay". Variety is great, but I don't think "one is designed with the Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare slop that we have now, and the rest are varied and interesting" to be actual variety. Make them all well-designed. I don't care if the Sylphies think spamming one button over and over and over again is "fun". It's not.

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if it was varied as sebazy said, and you don't find that one specific class fun... it's as simple as not playing it. same with people who aren't into tanking, they just don't play a tank.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

I said previous now removed spells are irrelevant since people who started playing as a healer after the fact didn't experience those spells to begin with? because how would people weigh in on content they simply didn't play before and have no way of playing now to have a sound opinion on it? pretty sure I stated multiple times that the current state of healers isn't good, but it's what we have, implying that I do think the team is very much capable of making a mistake. it's implied that the people who played the class back then want it back to how it used to be with more dps involvement, implying they've been around long enough to be called "veterans" of at least healing if nothing else. newbies implying people who only know the current style of play, and often across this thread there have been people believing people who enjoy the latter style of playing as simply incompetent.

it's very unlikely anything in this entire thread will change anything, considering that the developers are clearly happy with the direction they're going. that point is rather moot, considering not a single one of us appears to be changing anything at all.

if you don't understand what I'm saying, you can ask me to explain it again.

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"if you don't understand what I'm saying, you can ask me to explain it again"- from my perspective, I would saying that usually people seem to get your point,- although some points can be hard to read at times (for me).

You can repeat it as much as you want, that's your right, if you don't change your argument I likely won't agree with it any more. I'm more than happy to add more details to bolster my own argument if it helps.

Imagine a new player in this game. I will agree, said new player did not experience old abilities. However, those new players will interact with veteran players in various players. Some will get curious and perhaps investigate, and ask why they don't have those old abilities anymore and they may want them. Your stating that they "have no sound reason to want hem" discredits any new player who joins this game, no what their prior history is. that's a pretty big - and false in my mind-assumption of player skill.

If you doubt that anything will change, and you don't even answer direct questions that ask you to post examples that back up your statements- once again- why do you even post here? aren't you just wasting your time?

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

I said previous now removed spells are irrelevant since people who started playing as a healer after the fact didn't experience those spells to begin with? because how would people weigh in on content they simply didn't play before and have no way of playing now to have a sound opinion on it? pretty sure I stated multiple times that the current state of healers isn't good, but it's what we have, implying that I do think the team is very much capable of making a mistake. it's implied that the people who played the class back then want it back to how it used to be with more dps involvement, implying they've been around long enough to be called "veterans" of at least healing if nothing else. newbies implying people who only know the current style of play, and often across this thread there have been people believing people who enjoy the latter style of playing as simply incompetent.

it's very unlikely anything in this entire thread will change anything, considering that the developers are clearly happy with the direction they're going. that point is rather moot, considering not a single one of us appears to be changing anything at all.

if you don't understand what I'm saying, you can ask me to explain it again.

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I mean the whole game's population isn't just new players, and even if it is, there's still merit to looking back to the past.
What the game HAD is not irrelevant to the conversation just because "uwu NEW PLAYERS ARE HERE GET LOST BOOMERS! UWU"

Whether or not this thread will change anything is up to the devs, but at least people here that have a problem with healers can dump their problems here.

You deciding that "oh man, this thread isn't gonna change anything so might as well accept this polished poop as reward thanks dear Yoshi P" is very unproductive.

The team made a mistake, we're telling them we don't like it, we're using the previous iterations as a concrete reference to how we liked healer design. Period.

You coming in here saying , "Oh yeah your point is irrelevant xd, cause nothing's gonna change xd, cause might as well accept healers as it is now xd, because i'm a new player xd, old healer design is irrelevant xd" is just not a good argument to have my friend.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

"if you don't understand what I'm saying, you can ask me to explain it again"- from my perspective, I would saying that usually people seem to get your point,- although some points can be hard to read at times (for me).

You can repeat it as much as you want, that's your right, if you don't change your argument I likely won't agree with it any more. I'm more than happy to add more details to bolster my own argument if it helps.

Imagine a new player in this game. I will agree, said new player did not experience old abilities. However, those new players will interact with veteran players in various players. Some will get curious and perhaps investigate, and ask why they don't have those old abilities anymore and they may want them. Your stating that they "have no sound reason to want hem" discredits any new player who joins this game, no what their prior history is. that's a pretty big - and false in my mind-assumption of player skill.

If you doubt that anything will change, and you don't even answer direct questions that ask you to post examples that back up your statements- once again- why do you even post here? aren't you just wasting your time?






given we 9the forum we, I hope I don't come off

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pretty sure I answer whatever's directed to me? I'll rephrase then, the people who actually played with the skills will know better than the new players who at most can only look up and read up how gameplay with those old skills were, and at the very least I think we can agree on the experience of actually playing with said skills vs just reading and seeing them in action? I'm posting here for the same reason you seem to be, to put my two cents out there, that's pretty much it, I'm not expecting anything to come of it? not meaning to come off that way if I am.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

the same could be argued of any game... kill X before X kills you. a redundant argument; healer quests and any solo instances require some type of damage from the healer, yes. but a little chunk of damage =/= healers being dps in all but name. healers do have too many "HEAL" and not enough "OTHER". we just seem to disagree on what "OTHER" should be, i guess. but it's not unreasonable to.. outsource dps duties to dps and tank duties to tanks.. seems like they were outsourced to healers to begin with. don't get me wrong, i'm not saying healers should 0 damage whatsoever, that'd just be counterproductive. but current kits being able to out dps actual dps classes, and still want more dps? really?

so lemme get this straight... you, we'll call you "veterans", are asking for your old "outsourced" toolkit back, and the new people are saying "nah we like it as is"... and new people are unaware of how the class was before. but how the class was before is irrelevant if people like the class how it currently is now. so i have to ask, since that seems to be the vibes i'm getting from that list bit, what makes the opinion of people who want their old kit "superior" to those who are happy with how the class plays now? clearly the devs favor the latter and not the former, and there ARE in fact people who prefer it how it is now. ++ it seems the veterans are unwilling to accept the newbies opinion on the class, while saying their opinion is the "better" and "correct" way for the class to run?

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They didn't outsource just our DPS but everything

Virus was a debuff that healers (and SMN) had access to that would cause the target to deal less damage. Healers would rotate its usage between them to allow for them to help mitigate heavy hitting attacks as needed. They took this skill away from healers, broke it up into 2 parts and returned them as Addle/Feint for DPS roles. It is no longer available at all for Healers to utilize.
They removed Stoneskin 1+2 from WHM because "shields were too powerful". Now, WHM is the only healer incapable of applying AoE shields to the party, which is something even PLD and WAR can do.
Then we have all the free healing that Tanks have gotten as well as the utility heals that SMN/DNC bring (with RDM popping up periodically) which lowers the already low healing requirements even more.

What's the next expansion going to do? DNC gets heals added to Standard and Technical Step? RDM's Embolden gets a HoT added to it? Tank invulns get lowered down to 3 minutes across the board? It just gets to a point that there's hardly anything left for healers to do and it's getting worse with each expansion. I had a WAR and SMN tell me to just DPS and not worry about healing in Expert roulette the other day on my SCH (guessing they were a couple or something). That's depressing as all hell when I can't even do my job because I'm literally not needed outside of people doing Duty Finder for tombstones.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

They didn't outsource just our DPS but everything

Virus was a debuff that healers (and SMN) had access to that would cause the target to deal less damage. Healers would rotate its usage between them to allow for them to help mitigate heavy hitting attacks as needed. They took this skill away from healers, broke it up into 2 parts and returned them as Addle/Feint for DPS roles. It is no longer available at all for Healers to utilize.
They removed Stoneskin 1+2 from WHM because "shields were too powerful". Now, WHM is the only healer incapable of applying AoE shields to the party, which is something even PLD and WAR can do.
Then we have all the free healing that Tanks have gotten as well as the utility heals that SMN/DNC bring (with RDM popping up periodically) which lowers the already low healing requirements even more.

What's the next expansion going to do? DNC gets heals added to Standard and Technical Step? RDM's Embolden gets a HoT added to it? Tank invulns get lowered down to 3 minutes across the board? It just gets to a point that there's hardly anything left for healers to do and it's getting worse with each expansion. I had a WAR and SMN tell me to just DPS and not worry about healing in Expert roulette the other day on my SCH (guessing they were a couple or something). That's depressing as all hell when I can't even do my job because I'm literally not needed outside of people doing Duty Finder for tombstones.

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I agree the debut should've stayed as well as stoneskin up until sage became a thing, with a dedicated shield healer like sage, whm also having an apparent powerful shield is rather unneeded, I'd think? assuming who's heals are still the most potent, fair tradeoff, lose the powerful shield for most potent heals. dnc/rdm utility heals do come in handy if they're used properly, but I do think they should be taken (maybe even dancer's aoe shield?) and returned to the jurisdiction of healers. utility that could be in the jurisdiction of healers shouldn't be given to everyone else, I' think.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

pretty sure I answer whatever's directed to me? I'll rephrase then, the people who actually played with the skills will know better than the new players who at most can only look up and read up how gameplay with those old skills were, and at the very least I think we can agree on the experience of actually playing with said skills vs just reading and seeing them in action? I'm posting here for the same reason you seem to be, to put my two cents out there, that's pretty much it, I'm not expecting anything to come of it? not meaning to come off that way if I am.

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again, we disagree on the "know better'. Know "differently" - yes. You are basically invalidating new players opinions and perceptions as if they were new-born babies who had never played any game, had never healed in any other game or were incapable of talking to veteran healers and discussing these skills.
So to summarize (1) no, new players are not limited to "look up and read" and (2) new players may- not always- bring valuable experience and context that should not be discounted.

I can explain it again if that isn't clear.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

if it was varied as sebazy said, and you don't find that one specific class fun... it's as simple as not playing it. same with people who aren't into tanking, they just don't play a tank.

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I don't like the other three healers' aesthetics. And I've played WHM longer than the Sylphies who want to rob the job of good design because Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare is "fun". It's not. And I resent my main being lobotomized just so people who'd rather watch a movie than play a game can pretend they're "healing".

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

the Sylphies who want to rob the job of good design because Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare is "fun".

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They don't find spamming Glare fun they find getting yelled at for messing even less fun.

Between spamming glare and lower chance of messing up and getting yelled at and having a more engaging rotation but higher risk of failure and getting called out by an angry player they go for the boring but safer option.

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Originally Posted by Sesera

They don't find spamming Glare fun they find getting yelled at for messing even less fun.

Between spamming glare and lower chance of messing up and getting yelled at and having a more engaging rotation but higher risk of failure and getting called out by an angry player they go for the boring but safer option.

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On the flip side, it is more likely people are going to get annoyed because how braindead easy it has become when failure happens. The easier certain task to do, the more people would expect you to get it done properly because, why not? It's.... easy right?.

I said 'annoyed' because 'yelling' would get you reported :p