Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

I'm not sure what that means? The game is designed for what I want, and the rules are design and enforced where how I want to play and enjoy the game is acceptable to the developers of the game. The situation is great for players like me.

A bad player is fine in a mmo, and failed dungeons is ok as well. At the end of the day it is just a game, and progression is the only enjoyment you have in the game. Players like myself I can understand don't like, or want to group with, but I accept it, and these people views because I like my convenience of fast made groups.


Also, is it really going against the grain? I find that tons of people who play this game kinda has the mindset I do. I self improve all the time. I get better at playing the way I want and enjoy the game. When I play melee. I don't do positionals because that is not fun, and got enough on plate with rotation and dodging stuff. And will gladly do less dps for what is enjoyable to me. When I am force to group up and doing things slower bothers the people in the group...It is what it is. At times we can't come to agreement, and someone toes got to get stepped on. Just know that this is just one group one small part of the content in the game.




Yup, that is also better because puts less pressure on person. Unless after the run is over the said player does not care about how the person plays because it does not bother you anymore.

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1) Under technicality, if your choice of play means we can't complete the dungeon in 90 minutes of time because you are actively refusing to do your role, you are breaking the ToS yourself. "Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc" being the exact quote. By expressing through your refusal to play, if it ever caused the dungeon to be unclearable that is listed as prohibited. You're just lucky you're playing the least impacting dps.

2) On top of that, you don't play melee. I don't see why that's your example. Your only capped class is Dancer. You don't have to worry about positionals, but based on how you act, I get this feeling you don't dance either.

3) I don't know whether to be glad or not you're playing a dps instead of a tank or healer. At least when you're being dead weight since you admit to not wanting to play the least bit proper since you don't find it fun, as a dps people can just drag your corpse, but if you were a tank or healer at least something could get more clear as you'd get kicked so much more often.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

1) Under technicality, if your choice of play means we can't complete the dungeon in 90 minutes of time because you are actively refusing to do your role, you are breaking the ToS yourself. "Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc" being the exact quote. By expressing through your refusal to play, if it ever caused the dungeon to be unclearable that is listed as prohibited. You're just lucky you're playing the least impacting dps.

2) On top of that, you don't play melee. I don't see why that's your example. Your only capped class is Dancer. You don't have to worry about positionals, but based on how you act, I get this feeling you don't dance either.

3) I don't know whether to be glad or not you're playing a dps instead of a tank or healer. At least when you're being dead weight since you admit to not wanting to play the least bit proper since you don't find it fun, as a dps people can just drag your corpse, but if you were a tank or healer at least something could get more clear as you'd get kicked so much more often.

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I said when I play it, does max level only thing that matter?

Also, how you are acting right now is the reason why we have rules in the game to protect players. I also use to be a healer, and it was ok. Like I said the content was design that I could heal how I wanted and we got job done. I just enjoy dancer right now.


Nothing in the TOS at all says that I got to play how you want, just because it takes longer. Your example is wrong. I am playing the best I can for how I want to play. If that is not good enough for you, or the group you can pick to vote kick me. Yet, that has hardly happen because most community understand this basic thing.


So are you really trying to twist the TOS to say that unless you play how I want you to play, that is breaking the rules? Oooh boy.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Which baffles me. I get the idea behind wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt but I do not think removing people should be vilified as much as it is.

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People generally don't have a problem with kicking someone or getting kicked if it's agreed by the majority that they are not only a detriment but not worth any time investment at all or minor inconvenience.

"I don't use jobstones" "ok well that's just going to make this take way more time than any of us are willing to invest" (in so many words, probably something more like "I don't wanna" "k well.. bye".)

You however have presented playing off others tendencies and kicking at relatively negligible issues. Combining your particular take into what many might consider an abuse of the system for exceedingly selfish reasons. There's a large difference in many peoples minds between mutually agreeing to kick someone who is an obvious detriment to all and initiating a kick on minor things that bother you and taking advantage of the fact your friends in the party will go along with it as well as randoms who don't actually pay attention and either accidentally or dismissively agree to kick. Especially on a "contract" such as a DF party where you agreed to "help" others for a reward and are then cherry picking who you want to help.

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

I said when I play it, does max level only thing that matter?

Also, how you are acting right now is the reason why we have rules in the game to protect players. I also use to be a healer, and it was ok. Like I said the content was design that I could heal how I wanted and we got job done. I just enjoy dancer right now.


Nothing in the TOS at all says that I got to play how you want, just because it takes longer. Your example is wrong. I am playing the best I can for how I want to play. If that is not good enough for you, or the group you can pick to vote kick me. Yet, that has hardly happen because most community understand this basic thing.


So are you really trying to twist the TOS to say that unless you play how I want you to play, that is breaking the rules? Oooh boy.

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1) You have a level 15 pugilist who hasn't done a dungeon yet and a just unlocked SAM. You literally couldn't have done positionals yet.
2) I didn't say "Makes content take longer." After all, you said yourself with failed dungeons, no? If you're failing dungeons, something needs to be worked on, I promise.
3) Your only point to healing is you have a 45 white mage. Besides that I see can easily leveled up duo-class with smn, and a barely leveled up ast. And in those cases, healing in the game is so painfully overpowered anyways it's horribly hard to do incorrectly without plain going afk. Though I know people have found a way.
4) It's not the community "understands this basic thing." It's that a ton of them are perfectly acceptable of people not even playing at all, SPECIALLY if it's a dps. If I had a nickel for every time I've been kicked myself for not wanting the afk RDM who casted one impact to then do nothing for the rest of the pull or boss for the past 10 minutes, I'd have two nickels, which isn't much but it's weird that happened twice. Would you say I was wrong for wanting that dps to actually press anything at all? According to the community, I was, I should just deal with it.

... Oh, and 5) I'm not twisting it to say you gotta play how I play. Unless you wanna pick up a crafting tool, then I can show you how I play <3

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

1) You have a level 15 pugilist who hasn't done a dungeon yet and a just unlocked SAM. You literally couldn't have done positionals yet.
2) I didn't say "Makes content take longer." After all, you said yourself with failed dungeons, no? If you're failing dungeons, something needs to be worked on, I promise.
3) Your only point to healing is you have a 45 white mage. Besides that I see can easily leveled up duo-class with smn, and a barely leveled up ast. And in those cases, healing in the game is so painfully overpowered anyways it's horribly hard to do incorrectly without plain going afk. Though I know people have found a way.
4) It's not the community "understands this basic thing." It's that a ton of them are perfectly acceptable of people not even playing at all, SPECIALLY if it's a dps. If I had a nickel for every time I've been kicked myself for not wanting the afk RDM who casted one impact to then do nothing for the rest of the pull or boss for the past 10 minutes, I'd have two nickels, which isn't much but it's weird that happened twice. Would you say I was wrong for wanting that dps to actually press anything at all? According to the community, I was, I should just deal with it.

... Oh, and 5) I'm not twisting it to say you gotta play how I play. Unless you wanna pick up a crafting tool, then I can show you how I play <3

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You are correct! I'm saying that even if it require of me. I would not do it because I already know it is not fun. My husband is a sam main and he does it. So I know myself enough I would not.
Yup! During the times I played a healer it was pre hw and I think HW? Eh been awhile! Either way are you saying healers are so op now that skill is not required. So why did you use healers as an example...and go off and saying that I could get by playing healer. Very confusing.

I think you are mixing the point. It is ok for you to want to kick them, if other members of your party wants too as well. However, if the group does not. Making a big deal out of it, or trying to help said person when maybe they don't want it. It is not your place. Asking them in whispers after the run if you still want to help them is far far more acceptable...but do you really care how they play once you are done with the group? If you want to help someone only to get done with a dungeon faster. Masking that as a kindness I find silly, it is for yourself that you want to help person.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

People generally don't have a problem with kicking someone or getting kicked if it's agreed by the majority that they are not only a detriment but not worth any time investment at all or minor inconvenience.

"I don't use jobstones" "ok well that's just going to make this take way more time than any of us are willing to invest" (in so many words, probably something more like "I don't wanna" "k well.. bye".)

You however have presented playing off others tendencies and kicking at relatively negligible issues. Combining your particular take into what many might consider an abuse of the system for exceedingly selfish reasons. There's a large difference in many peoples minds between mutually agreeing to kick someone who is an obvious detriment to all and initiating a kick on minor things that bother you and taking advantage of the fact your friends in the party will go along with it as well as randoms who don't actually pay attention and either accidentally or dismissively agree to kick. Especially on a "contract" such as a DF party where you agreed to "help" others for a reward and are then cherry picking who you want to help.

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The thing what one considers negligible may not be to another. As stated my stance is fairly simple if the majority of those able to vote to remove the player then the vote is valid. The reason behind it is moot in my opinion because the reason becomes a subjective standard. Though our vote kick system is far from perfect and some changes could be made but within the current system that is the only objective metric we have.

I get people being agaisnt my reasoning for the kick, and they can view me as an villain or an ass. Though I do not think the action itself is wrong or should be viewed as such. I do think it should be encouraged.

The other thing I am not a huge fan of implicit contracts. Which is what end stance boils down to regarding DF is an agreement to help others. Granted I have never read the text for the duty finder so it could not be implicit and just ignorance on my part. Though that creates other issues I have that would further derail the thread.

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Originally Posted by Awha

The thing what one considers negligible may not be to another. As stated my stance is fairly simple if the majority of those able to vote to remove the player then the vote is valid. The reason behind it is moot in my opinion because the reason becomes a subjective standard. Though our vote kick system is far from perfect and some changes could be made but within the current system that is the only objective metric we have.

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Yet I would hazard a large amount of the community seems to see your standard of "anything I don't like" as being incredibly unfair, especially while leveraging other "abuses" of the system like I mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I get people being agaisnt my reasoning for the kick, and they can view me as an villain or an ass. Though I do not think the action itself is wrong or should be viewed as such. I do think it should be encouraged.

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The action itself is built into the game. It's not wrong. The reasoning behind it and how it's enacted being the important part. Encouraging silent votekicking perpetuates confusion and offers NO opportunity for growth.

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Originally Posted by Awha

The other thing I am not a huge fan of implicit contracts. Which is what end stance boils down to regarding DF is an agreement to help others. Granted I have never read the text for the duty finder so it could not be implicit and just ignorance on my part. Though that creates other issues I have that would further derail the thread.

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Why does DF roulette exist? Why do people need to be ENCOURAGED to use it and complete whatever duty they get? Why is there a punishment for leaving once it's started? Why is the duty "Masked" during the acceptance popup?
answer those questions and you will understand what implicit contract you're entering by clicking "OK".

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Yet I would hazard a large amount of the community seems to see your standard of "anything I don't like" as being incredibly unfair, especially while leveraging other "abuses" of the system like I mentioned.


The action itself is built into the game. It's not wrong. The reasoning behind it and how it's enacted being the important part. Encouraging silent votekicking perpetuates confusion and offers NO opportunity for growth.





Why does DF roulette exist? Why do people need to be ENCOURAGED to use it and complete whatever duty they get? Why is there a punishment for leaving once it's started? Why is the duty "Masked" during the acceptance popup?
answer those questions and you will understand what implicit contract you're entering by clicking "OK".

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Thing is I do not care that much for subjective standards such as fair or unfair. Since that will vary from person to person and in the grand scheme not of any use when it comes to my own enjoyment calculus.

Also yes the action is built into the game, and if reasoning is allowed either through inaction or enforcement or just accepted by those who control the system then once again the reasoning bares little importance within the system as a whole. As mentioned one can disagree with my use of the tool but the framing of trying to put ones own standards as a reason for why one should not do it at the very least appears to try and frame the action as inappropriate as a truth because the community at large disagrees.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Thing is I do not care that much for subjective standards such as fair or unfair. Since that will vary from person to person and in the grand scheme not of any use when it comes to my own enjoyment calculus.

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As you have said. I'm just trying to offer perspective from those who do. Fair and unfair are important to someone who experiences empathy.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Also yes the action is built into the game, and if reasoning is allowed either through inaction or enforcement or just accepted by those who control the system then once again the reasoning bares little importance within the system as a whole. As mentioned one can disagree with my use of the tool but the framing of trying to put ones own standards as a reason for why one should not do it at the very least appears to try and frame the action as inappropriate as a truth because the community at large disagrees.

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Societal norms come about because of general consensus. In the FFXIV society you are an uncommon case. If everyone played and acted at your standard the game would be far more hostile to new players, less profitable as it would be casual unfriendly, and possibly would have crashed and burned (or at least been abandoned to obscurity) long ago.

So my opinion is that while you can survive and play while being of your particular stance, you are not "healthy" for the growth of this game and it's community and will be scorned for your lack of consideration of others.

Again, these things are important to most people.


In all honesty I have my doubts as to your actually holding the position you defend as it is, as I've put forward before, close to sociopathy, and true detachment from any empathy is rare for the human condition. Especially if you are interested in something like a JRPG where we are introduced to and expected to care about characters that aren't us. Yes you can play this game without paying any attention to that, but FFXIV does tend to lean heavily on that aspect.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

As you have said. I'm just trying to offer perspective from those who do. Fair and unfair are important to someone who experiences empathy.



Societal norms come about because of general consensus. In the FFXIV society you are an uncommon case. If everyone played and acted at your standard the game would be far more hostile to new players, less profitable as it would be casual unfriendly, and possibly would have crashed and burned (or at least been abandoned to obscurity) long ago.

So my opinion is that while you can survive and play while being of your particular stance, you are not "healthy" for the growth of this game and it's community and will be scorned for your lack of consideration of others.

Again, these things are important to most people.


In all honesty I have my doubts as to your actually holding the position you defend as it is, as I've put forward before, close to sociopathy, and true detachment from any empathy is rare for the human condition. Especially if you are interested in something like a JRPG where we are introduced to and expected to care about characters that aren't us. Yes you can play this game without paying any attention to that, but FFXIV does tend to lean heavily on that aspect.

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Dealing with Awha can be quite an experience. I can honestly say I have never met anyone quite like them, real world or otherwise. Good luck with that is all I can really say. Sometimes there are pleasant debates to be had. Sometimes there is...this, whatever it may be.