Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

My husband kinda went over this, but you could have whisper the person and ask would they like some advice. Trying to help someone can also make them feel bad for failing and being new. Being polite does not mean that whm has to listen to your advice.



Using a queue system to make a group for you right? So the cost of convenience is quality. A group failing or taking longer is not such a big deal in a game is it?

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I assume you mean whisper them after the atrocity is over as you can't use the tell system mid dungeon queue iirc.

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Originally Posted by JRat

I dont think it was rude. If you are looking to be offended then maybe but unless it was :

"Wow, you are terrible at healing. Havenʻt you even read your spell abilities? Go on then, read them. Weʻll wait for you while you waste our time."

that comes off as WAY more dismissive, impatient, and accusatory than what lezard posted

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To be honest people that bad will not improve because you suddenly tell them what their skills do so I usually don't bother talking at all. However if you do want to give advice to people you should ask first for the best results:
"Do you mind if I give you a little advice?"

Last night I spend 1h in gubal library. 1st wipe was to no tank stance, 2nd wipe was to taking tank stance off, 3rd wipe was to final boss, 4th wipe was to final boss, 5th wipe was to final boss, 6th wipe was to final boss. Failing to stand on the pads to stop ad spawns, running around like chickens with their heads cut off like it was somehow going to stop the ads from hitting them and the tank was doing it as well.

Lovely time, After a brief explanation of how to stand on the pads and to not drop the red markers in the center of the arena or run through them didn't work I ended up just telling them to stand in anything that glows and we would be better for it.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

That's honestly fine nothing wrong with playing the game you want to play it but respect the reality of the situation you're putting yourself in.

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I'm not sure what that means? The game is designed for what I want, and the rules are design and enforced where how I want to play and enjoy the game is acceptable to the developers of the game. The situation is great for players like me.

A bad player is fine in a mmo, and failed dungeons is ok as well. At the end of the day it is just a game, and progression is the only enjoyment you have in the game. Players like myself I can understand don't like, or want to group with, but I accept it, and these people views because I like my convenience of fast made groups.


Also, is it really going against the grain? I find that tons of people who play this game kinda has the mindset I do. I self improve all the time. I get better at playing the way I want and enjoy the game. When I play melee. I don't do positionals because that is not fun, and got enough on plate with rotation and dodging stuff. And will gladly do less dps for what is enjoyable to me. When I am force to group up and doing things slower bothers the people in the group...It is what it is. At times we can't come to agreement, and someone toes got to get stepped on. Just know that this is just one group one small part of the content in the game.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

I assume you mean whisper them after the atrocity is over as you can't use the tell system mid dungeon queue iirc.

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Yup, that is also better because puts less pressure on person. Unless after the run is over the said player does not care about how the person plays because it does not bother you anymore.

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Originally Posted by Xia_Thas

It's all based off interputation. What's offensive to you may not be to others and vice versa. End of the day if they took offense that's on them, all you can do is try to explain and clear up the misunderstanding if such devastation was not your intention.

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This is just another reason on why not to offer unsolicited advice. Just saying "Would you like some advice?" implies the player is doing something wrong, and a lot of people don't like that. They take that statement as passive-aggression, heck, a lot of times it is passive-aggression.

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

My husband kinda went over this, but you could have whisper the person and ask would they like some advice. Trying to help someone can also make them feel bad for failing and being new. Being polite does not mean that whm has to listen to your advice.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

If that's really how you put it, then it sounds like your phrasing could use some work. That comes off as dismissive, impatient, and accusatory, especially the "we'll wait for you" part. If you have experience in the class and want to offer to share that, then just explain that you are a fellow WHM and you have some tips that might make things easier if they're open to it. And if they say no, then that's that.

Another way to approach it is to not single any one person out but say something like "Team, I see we're having some problems. Would it help if we take a breather to assess and figure out what we can adjust?"

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Valid points if we are talking level 50 content or below (specially for WHM since they gain a bulk of important skills around that level mark), or if we are talking about not proper ability usage.

Not so much when we are talking level 65 and 75 content respectively and not usage of half of your abilities at all. We are talking about going through 3/4 and 90% of the game without using 50% of your kit.

Players should not have to write formal proposals for assistance over stuff the game has already explained for over 64/74 levels bit by bit so you can get familiar with how each ability works and how to use them.

This is exactly the "enabling" OP was talking about.

I had a run, couple days ago in an extreme trial.

First clear bonus, macros played, positions chosen. No chatting.
Dancer proceeds to die to very first mechanic. Ok, she's new.
3 Wipes in dancer still dying to first mechanic. What the hell?
4th Attempt dancer dying to every mechanic leading upto, then dies at the quick time event.

Me: /straightface @dancer
Me: @dancer are you even trying?
Dancer: Shaddup

We Clear, She's dead obviously. Afterwards dancer messages me.

Dancer: insert excuses about being in a group with her FC ( it was finder must of not had full team), first time, new to the game, doesn't watch videos.
Me: were you playing with your eyes closed? you had ample opportunities to see the first mechanic.
Dancer: Insert swear words.

The dancer then proceed to go to limsa were I was, and shout how I'm a disgrace as mentor and toxic.
I reported her. lol.

6 other people in that trial remained silent, but its apparent this dancer was putting 0 effort. When she failed the quick time event on the 4th attempt was the straw that caused me to call her out.
Even if the other 6 people were her FC friends they should at least had help her with mechanics not just put up with her being dead weight it reinforces this kind of bad behavior.

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

I'm not sure what that means? The game is designed for what I want, and the rules are design and enforced where how I want to play and enjoy the game is acceptable to the developers of the game. The situation is great for players like me.

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That it is.

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

A bad player is fine in a mmo, and failed dungeons is ok as well. At the end of the day it is just a game, and progression is the only enjoyment you have in the game. Players like myself I can understand don't like, or want to group with, but I accept it, and these people views because I like my convenience of fast made groups.

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Bad players? Fine by me, not being able to complete a dungeon in the allotted amount of time? No. You shouldn't unironically fail something that requires the intelligence of a 5th grade, even if it does take you the entire duration of the dungeon.
Yes progression, is your self today better than your self yester day.

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

Also, is it really going against the grain? I find that tons of people who play this game kinda has the mindset I do. I self improve all the time. I get better at playing the way I want and enjoy the game. When I play melee. I don't do positionals because that is not fun, and got enough on plate with rotation and dodging stuff. And will gladly do less dps for what is enjoyable to me.

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You call self improvement getting better at making yourself have fun, nothing objective at all? Only subjective ideals at the cost of your fellow peers? Your mindset has stagnation by right of choice, you actively avoid improvement in favor of fun.
While it might look similar to your mindset some people just:
A. Aren't good enough for certain things no matter how hard they try.
B. Haven't reached the point where they want to improve yet.
C. Don't know how to improve.

They do not actively avoid objective self improvement in their daily life intentionally by not even attempting to get better by simply trying and failing to hit a melee positional.
If it's fine to fail a dungeon in your mind then it's fine to fail a few mechanics and die a little in favor of objective self improvement. Invest in your future.

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

When I am force to group up and doing things slower bothers the people in the group...It is what it is. At times we can't come to agreement, and someone toes got to get stepped on. Just know that this is just one group one small part of the content in the game.

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You're right it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Valid points if we are talking level 50 content or below (specially for WHM since they gain a bulk of important skills around that level mark), or if we are talking about not proper ability usage.

Not so much when we are talking level 65 and 75 content respectively and not usage of half of your abilities at all. We are talking about going through 3/4 and 90% of the game without using 50% of your kit.

Players should not have to write formal proposals for assistance over stuff the game has already explained for over 64/74 levels bit by bit so you can get familiar with how each ability works and how to use them.

This is exactly the "enabling" OP was talking about.

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but again, you picked to use a tool that makes grouping with players easier. It does not matter what level said person is. If they don't want to use half of the skills they have. They have that right to do it with the settings the game provides, and the developers are ok with that.

You have tools in the game that lets you make your own groups, and set the rules you want and requirements needed for group.



The way I see queue up grouping systems is like a open market and the perks of building groups quickly comes at a heavy price at times. Progression to me is a perk, and I understand some people feel progression is fun and having someone slow it down can ruin his or her fun. It can't be helped and is the nature of mmos.

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

but again, you picked to use a tool that makes grouping with players easier. It does not matter what level said person is. If they don't want to use half of the skills they have. They have that right to do it with the settings the game provides, and the developers are ok with that.

You have tools in the game that lets you make your own groups, and set the rules you want and requirements needed for group.



The way I see queue up grouping systems is like a open market and the perks of building groups quickly comes at a heavy price at times. Progression to me is a perk, and I understand some people feel progression is fun and having someone slow it down can ruin his or her fun. It can't be helped and is the nature of mmos.

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Sure, but when people like that get removed without a reason then hopefully they do not act too surprised it happened.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Sure, but when people like that get removed without a reason then hopefully they do not act too surprised it happened.

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Correct! If other players in the group pick to remove you. Well in the right to do so. It works both ways, and the game sets up all the tools for it to happen. It just seems like most of the time the community leans toward being more understanding and people tend to defend players from being called out.

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

Correct! If other players in the group pick to remove you. Well in the right to do so. It works both ways, and the game sets up all the tools for it to happen. It just seems like most of the time the community leans toward being more understanding and people tend to defend players from being called out.

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Which baffles me. I get the idea behind wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt but I do not think removing people should be vilified as much as it is.