How do we feel about tank damage right now?

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

That would just mean OT would be always on Damage mode. Plus, we would just figure out like in Stormblood how to stay in DPS mode.

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I think it's a worthwhile schemata to look into, and I have no issue at all with OT/MT's having two distinct roles, rotations, and supporting abilities, doubly so if we can fit them onto each singular tank.

The only reason that the DPS MT could exist is that the design allowed it to exist. You wouldn't "stay in DPS stance" if you end up in the floor two autos later.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

That's why a good number of us are unhappy.

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Hey man. I feel for that.

Hence why I said our "current version".

I think the worst I've said of the Heavensward stat situation is that it was a false choice, but conceptually, giving up 25% of your defense for +25% damage is fine. It's a stance swap where you can't change it during a fight.

That's the crux of the issue. Tanks are not weak right now. They're the most bloated they've ever been - It's just not in their beat stick. Relative corrective adjustments are fine. The Ranged are looking to receive one fairly soon, it looks like, so a corresponding one for the tanks and potentially healers would be appropriate.

The kind of sweeping boost that is being asked for requires trimming the fat by a proportional amount, or you're just going to get monkey pawed again.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Now, yes.

If people get the Damage numbers they seem to want, and the balance isn't taken into account, how would that shift the meta? Yes Rath EX was designed to be beaten by 'any comp' but Tanks became the preferred choice.

Look we have 2 endings here; 1) Tanks get their much demanded damage and fights aren't changed leading to Tanks possibly taking DPS slots because why wouldn't they if they do enough damage and are safer, or 2) Tanks get their much demanded damage and Fights are changed, making the enrage checks even tighter to compenstate for the new expected damage numbers or just giving the boss more HP, which makes the 'feel good damage numbers' basically a band aid.

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The only slot a tank would ever take is the flex dps slot otherwise you lose the party diversity bonus and even by taking that one extra tank you are going to make the fight harder in some instance as mechanics that would normally target one of the dps would now target one of the 2 tanks without aggro randomly meaning instead of consistency you have to adjust around rng. And if we go with the 75% figure, sure some parties would take a tank there, the problem is the parties that would feel the need to take a third tank are likely the parties that won't be clearing anyway as they would be missing dps and one person not dying as much isn't going to help that. So there's your first scenario basically debunked, sure some would take extra tanks, and either lose thier diversity bonus which tanks everyones dps or make the fights mechanically more challenging.

Scenario 2, well if they inflated the boss health to match the new tank dps, you'd see no difference, unless you were bad at your job and the new expanded tank dps makes your numbers even worse by comparison. Im also kind of fine with tighter dps checks anyway unless you're doing week 1 prog the dps checks arn't stupidly tight anyway adjusting up a small amount to account for new tank dps won't make or break a party, unless again your party isn't that great, demanding your tanks have better rotational execution isn't much of an ask when its probably currently the easiest job to optimise dps on.

In my opinion tanks need 2 things right now:

1º more dps: it's unrreasonable have healers breathing at our necks when we are supose to be much more agresive than them and our contribution to the raid it's frankly low.

2º more complexity: the role feels empty and to simple to be considering fun, heck even the JP forum are disscussing about this too, the quality of the role has been decreased despite of the necesary changes on the role, we need more skill ceiling and more mechanics to be worry about in all encounters, using simple rotations and use a defensive or 2 to survive it's feel lame at best, we should have stuff that reward you for proper use and optimization of our jobs and feel impactful to the party.

it's hard to belive since i was one that wanted the tank stances changes and the acc ones too but all the changes around it making agro meaning less, defensive skills optimization a joke and our impact to the party insuficient make me wanna go back to stormblood without any doubt, this amount of oversimplification has been gone too far.

just my 2 cent.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Tanks are not weak right now. They're the most bloated they've ever been - It's just not in their beat stick.

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I would argue that they're NOT particularly strong in their mitigation either. Fact is, this entire expansion has been a relative joke in terms of mitigating damage. Before, tank swaps were near really common as tanks had to supercooldown and invuln several times in a fight, and swap to their co-tank to do the same and use their tools as well. the most swapping seen was in leviathan and that wasn't really all that intensive or required as much planning like O10S did. Now that fight required extensive CD planning to make sure you could cover all bases if you were unlucky enough to MT the entire latter half of the fight.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

The only slot a tank would ever take is the flex dps slot otherwise you lose the party diversity bonus and even by taking that one extra tank you are going to make the fight harder in some instance as mechanics that would normally target one of the dps would now target one of the 2 tanks without aggro randomly meaning instead of consistency you have to adjust around rng. And if we go with the 75% figure, sure some parties would take a tank there, the problem is the parties that would feel the need to take a third tank are likely the parties that won't be clearing anyway as they would be missing dps and one person not dying as much isn't going to help that. So there's your first scenario basically debunked, sure some would take extra tanks, and either lose thier diversity bonus which tanks everyones dps or make the fights mechanically more challenging.

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I don't see how it's debunked. If the damage a tank is given allows the team to STILL Clear, a DPS slot is going to be taken, how is this hard to understand? If you can still clear with a third tank, why would you not take it instead of say, MNK, or at this point Ninja which was the lowest DPS I saw for a bit. Yes I'm taking into account Party Diversity Bonus for this. If you can clear with 3 tanks, why would you not take 3 tanks? People will use the easiest, most practical, and most consistent way to beat a fight; that's just how things are. Look at people complaining about the DPS teir lists and BLM being basically a must pick these days because the math shows it's good so the community follows. I've already covered this before, people will follow the math.

And if the math ever comes up that 3 tanks is better, safer, and more consistent way to clera; guess what the meta becomes. I don't think this is hard to understand; if there's little to no difference between the end result, a tank is a better choice as it can eat a DDR mess up and not instant die.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Scenario 2, well if they inflated the boss health to match the new tank dps, you'd see no difference, unless you were bad at your job and the new expanded tank dps makes your numbers even worse by comparison. Im also kind of fine with tighter dps checks anyway unless you're doing week 1 prog the dps checks arn't stupidly tight anyway adjusting up a small amount to account for new tank dps won't make or break a party, unless again your party isn't that great, demanding your tanks have better rotational execution isn't much of an ask when its probably currently the easiest job to optimise dps on.

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Look I don't think either of us want to go through FAUST again, regardless of your skill level. I do agree that tanks are currently in the easiest time to DPS. Healers might actually be even easier given their heals are so strong they can find more than enough time to DPS, which is part of their problem but that's a separate problem. But no, we can't have Healers deal more damage than us because the Devs messed their role up, we simply need add more damage to Tanks because that's the only acceptable solution. No Healer should out damage us!(sarcasm).

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Originally Posted by shao32

1º more dps: it's unrreasonable have healers breathing at our necks when we are supose to be much more agresive than them and our contribution to the raid it's frankly low.

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Something people don't seem to understand is that Healers out damaging us is more a problem on the Healer end than on the Tank end. I'm pretty sure the Devs didn't go into this expansion with the idea of making Healers out damage us, no the idea was different if I recall. The idea was to make their damage skills hit harder to make up for the fact they'd be healing more often. More damage, over less hits. That was the intent I believe which if I'm wrong, I'll own up to that but that's how I absorbed that info.

And we all know they messed that up. Being higher on the damage chart is a by product of the devs not understanding what to do with Healers. Put a different way; how many people would actually be happy if Healers were nerfed into being below us either by fixing their game play(Having to use more GCD heals) or just lowering the damage numbers? Would people still be asking for Tank Damage buffs?

We all know the answer here which is Yes. So quit blaming it on the Healers.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

I would argue that they're NOT particularly strong in their mitigation either. Fact is, this entire expansion has been a relative joke in terms of mitigating damage. Before, tank swaps were near really common as tanks had to supercooldown and invuln several times in a fight, and swap to their co-tank to do the same and use their tools as well. the most swapping seen was in leviathan and that wasn't really all that intensive or required as much planning like O10S did. Now that fight required extensive CD planning to make sure you could cover all bases if you were unlucky enough to MT the entire latter half of the fight.

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Doing a little testing.

Naked Tanks take less damage than fully armored casters and about the same as fully armored dragoons. Their innate trait bonus is -20% damage taken (I've seen varying accounts, so went for the quick and dirty check). Their armor at the current tier appears to put them around an additional 37% on top of that, plus whatever small amount tenacity adds. Comparatively, sigmascape armor appears to have been around 37%.

Skill consolidation and changes vary by jobs, but co-tank skills were markedly improved and expanded at large, so any losses in the other skills are generally covered here, likely with fights like O10s in mind when the boss determines whose face is getting beat.

Transitioning from StB -> ShB is a net gain in mitigation. Whatever amounts that were trimmed down between cooldowns is made up in excess via the tank trait and every tank having a short cast Co-tank ability.

Fight design not pushing that is a separate issue.

Edit: Excluding the paladin, who probably has a net neutral change with Sentinels retuning and Shield changes.

Edit 2: Wrong armor values for edenchoir gear

Discussing how much each role can passively mitigate deliberately distracts from the issue. Does it matter?

Even in a situation in which losing enmity causes the boss to run around one-shotting everyone else, it just means that having a tank is mandatory, the same way that having a healer is mandatory. Ooh! You take less damage than everyone else! And you generate more aggros than anyone else! Isn't that exciting. Surely everyone will flock to the role now.

Likewise, shaming tanks for wanting to do more damage isn't any more subtle. Damage is where the raid value is at the moment. Which is why it's under discussion.

If you want to change that, you actually have to change fight design such that tank positioning and movement are essential to maximising raid dps. Fix one, fix the other, or better yet, fix both. But do neither and you're not providing much incentive to tank.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

I don't see how it's debunked. If the damage a tank is given allows the team to STILL Clear, a DPS slot is going to be taken, how is this hard to understand? If you can still clear with a third tank, why would you not take it instead of say, MNK, or at this point Ninja which was the lowest DPS I saw for a bit. Yes I'm taking into account Party Diversity Bonus for this. If you can clear with 3 tanks, why would you not take 3 tanks? People will use the easiest, most practical, and most consistent way to beat a fight; that's just how things are. Look at people complaining about the DPS teir lists and BLM being basically a must pick these days because the math shows it's good so the community follows. I've already covered this before, people will follow the math.

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Youre setting up a ridiculous standard, untraditional party comp runs have ways been a thing (solo heal ect), if youre saying that a party could clear with 3 tanks then thats enough for it to be to much then that is ridiculous, we probably already can do some fights this tier with 3 tanks and i dont see the rush to do so. Also as i mentioned before losing diversity bonus and dps players will likely make the fight harder not easier due to less consistent mechanics and even less health and damage. Theres also the fact that being a tank wont help in most cases either, unless you die to unavoidable mechanics extra defence wont let you live binary pass fail mechanics like most are in this game

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Discussing how much each role can passively mitigate deliberately distracts from the issue. Does it matter?

Even in a situation in which losing enmity causes the boss to run around one-shotting everyone else, it just means that having a tank is mandatory, the same way that having a healer is mandatory. Ooh! You take less damage than everyone else! And you generate more aggros than anyone else! Isn't that exciting. Surely everyone will flock to the role now.

Likewise, shaming tanks for wanting to do more damage isn't any more subtle. Damage is where the raid value is at the moment. Which is why it's under discussion.

If you want to change that, you actually have to change fight design such that tank positioning and movement are essential to maximising raid dps. Fix one, fix the other, or better yet, fix both. But do neither and you're not providing much incentive to tank.

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I don't care 'bout none o'dat. I just wanna be a rockstar hero tank again. Fight design, boss positioning, it's all means to an end: the spotlight. Is it self-centered and conceited? Sure, but it doesn't matter cause it feels good.

LET ME HAVE THAT AGAIN!

No. You can be goalie. Except that the shots on net are completely predictable and happen at fixed timestamps.