Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

Dumb question. Has anyone tried stacking DEX to increase parry rates?

lmao thats funny @ the let me tank maybe, im lvling both, mara and glad , maybe stacking str and dex ups damage for the heals and dex for parry instead of stacking vit

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Originally Posted by Rensumas30

lmao thats funny @ the let me tank maybe, im lvling both, mara and glad , maybe stacking str and dex ups damage for the heals and dex for parry instead of stacking vit

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I only ask because I am wondering if we are expected to get some ridiculous amount of Parry to try and get our mitigation from the 20%-21% DMG Parry. Wasn't sure if the more dex you have the more useful stacking Parry would be. Kind of like reducing the diminishing returns of stack parry. If it even diminishes.

Hate to break it to ya, but dex does pretty close to 0 for parry.

Another thing that really hasn't been talked about much... resource use and resource pools (TP mainly in this case) .I'm assuming this is similar on Paladin, but just using a basic rotation on Warrior will eventually deplete your entire pool; Overpower's added at any point expedite your journey to low TP.

Low TP affects damage output, enmity gain, aoe threat capability, etc... on both classes BUT low TP hurts Warriors far more than Paladins. Passive mitigation always happens, whereas active/reactionary dmg based healing happens far less frequently when TP is exhausted. Warriors ability to build Wrath stacks and therefore Inner Beasts, rely on consistently chaining TP attacks to build the resource.

Sidenote: This is also why Hiir is again full of shit: Increasing Skill Speed leads to low TP scenarios more speedily.

Anyone done comparisons of TP use between the Warrior/Paladin? Between my buddy and myself, I have a feeling his Paladin is more efficient in the long run on TP use given they mix MP abilities in more frequently. It's also the reason I rarely use Overpower besides short bursty large add pulls knowing I will be out of combat shortly as you will not see that TP again anytime soon otherwise.

invigorate gives 500 tp would be useful for both types of tanks

So I've been following this thread for a while (read all 33 pages, INCLUDING Kitru's mathematical equations and formulas. Which I have to give him/her massive credit for crunchin them numbers like like it was just another day at the office) and I can fully say that WARs do need something. I just currently put mine off to the side to level a PUG because I can tell even by playin around with it for 2 days that the class seems to be missing a vital part to it. Either it needs a buff in defense or the HP regen skills need to be juiced up a bunch. So yea, no way is it "Just fine" as is.

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Originally Posted by dandelions

Another thing that really hasn't been talked about much... resource use and resource pools (TP mainly in this case) .

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Which class has the easier resource construct depends upon how you play, but resource pools are large enough that TP costs only matter in extreme circumstances (the only common one of which is brought up later). The rotation that they use (using the one from my previous post) costs 650 ((70+60+60) * 3 + 80) over 10 GCDs, or 65 TP/GCD. The WAR rotation is slightly more expensive at 860 ((70 + 60 + 60) * 2 + (70+60+70) * 2 + 80)) over 13 GCDs, or 66.15 TP/GCD. Base resource gain is 60 TP every 3 seconds or 50 TP/GCD. As such, the net loss of a PLD is 15 TP/GCD (~63.33 GCDs before you reach 50 TP and are forced to have an open GCD) whereas a WAR has 16.15 TP/GCD (58.82 GCDs until empty GCD). The difference isn't major, but it's present. Of course, if you factor in Berserk, where a PLD loses 2 GCDs every 36, cost goes down to 62.48 TP/GCD and the net loss becomes 12.48 (76.12 GCDs before out). Honestly, most fights have some degree of downtime so that you're not attacking constantly. It doesn't really take all that much to allow a tank to have infinite resources for all intents and purposes.

When you bring in AoE threat, the difference becomes rather starl. Overpower costs 130 TP/GCD, which is a net loss of *80* TP/GCD whereas Flash is effectively free but limited to 7 chain casts before you run out (every 22 seconds you get MP equal to an additional Flash; 2% per 3 seconds; 1474 max mp with Flash at a cost of 212). Flash is also a net gain of 50 TP every time you use it. If you string Flash into your rotation, you can have a PLD that, quite literally, never runs out of resources. Each use of Overpower, on the other hand, is, effectively, 6.4 GCDs of TP consumption right off the bat. Overpower is expensive as *hell*.

It's for this reason, the difference between Flash and Overpower's relative costs, that it's really hard to properly gauge the AoE effectiveness of either class. WAR gets better burst AoE threat, but it comes at a steep cost. PLD has better *consistent* AoE threat, which also has a larger area and is easier to use because it's a PbAoE rather than a targeted cone, that is, effectively, free. If there is a long period of time between add packs, WAR gets to shine. If there *isn't* or the packs is more spread out, PLD wins by a mile.

Great Calculations Kitru. It might serve to label each factor independently so that people know where each comes from; it took me a little digging and reading back and forth to see what was what.


DPS Out of Tank Stance

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Originally Posted by Kitru

WAR:
(213.85 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.011) * 1.2 * /.9 * 1.02375 = 423.12 potency per GCD

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That being said, you made a little boo boo in this equation. "1.011" should be "1.11". Down in the in-tank-stance analysis section you write the number correctly.

Also, I'd include WAR's stun for completeness' sake in this equation. It'll give you 50/(30/2.5) = 4.17 extra dps per gcd and it's off the gcd, just as silence and spirit are.

Given these two changes your optimal warrior dps calculation climbs from ~423 DPS to ~440, beating PLD by 3%.

Another point: since you're assuming "Auto-attacks provides a baseline 83.33 potency per GCD (2.5/3)", shouldn't you also assume that Sword Oath should be multiplied by 2.5/3? If so, PLDs optimal dps goes down to 417 from 423.


DPS in Tank Stance

You state "Internal Release actually drops its contribution to 3.57% increase". But it was 2.375% in your DPS analysis, so it actually went up? In either case you are including both numbers in your equation (2.375% and 3.57%). I think you forgot to replace 2.375% wit the DPS from Wrath V (4.76%). Making this change ups the DPS to 345 potency per GCD.

Also I think this section needs to include the effect of Unchained, given it's trying to determine optimal dps in tank stance.


Enmity Generation

There's a part I don't understand - you multiply the effect of Internal Release and of Wrath V by 1.5 (btw it seems this equation has the same problem with the 2.375% and 3.57% as the equation in the preceding section) because "Crits generate an extra 50% enmity", but that extra enmity is already factored into those two percentages, 2.375% and 3.57% because they already include the effect of the extra 50% damage they cause.

Or are you saying they create an additional 50% enmity bonus ON TOP OF the already existing 50% extra damage bonus? If that's not the case then the enmity potency per GCD of that combo would be 1192, almost half of what the pally's combo gives. Edit: just to make it clearer, are you saying that a crit under defiance gives SkillPotency*1.5 damage, but SkillPotency*1.5*1.5 enmity?


P.S. Just realized through another post you should include the DPS from vengeance as well in all 3 sections! Add it as a modifier to autoattack, perhaps.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

large post in reply

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I had edited my post quite a bit, my point was just to convey TP constraints hurt Warriors far more than Paladins due to part of the Warrior mitigation coming from "offense" and constant use of TP to build Wrath for things like Inner Beast. I haven't been to Coil, so I don't know general timers on the fights, but I've reached low TP in fights outside Coil (and without using Overpower).

Having a Bard use the TP song seems like a waste when both melee DPS and bard have access to the Dragoon's Invogorate (which seems to be fine for sustaining constant TP use on my bard).


Was just bringing up another point (more minor given it is situation dependent on long fights) to add to the Warrior inferiority vs. Paladin list in hopes the devs planning changes in the future.

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Originally Posted by Tronic

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Also, I'd include WAR's stun for completeness' sake in this equation. It'll give you 50/(30/2.5) = 4.17 extra dps per gcd and it's off the gcd, just as silence and spirit are.

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You never use the Stun unless it is your turn to interrupt something (due to Stun DR build up). Using this ability outside of set perimeters on most bosses will essentially wipe the raid or at the very minumum cause far more trouble than 50 potency would ever be worth.

TLDR: It's not a free off GCD 50 potency 30 second CD attack; using it like so would get you kicked from any raid group.

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Originally Posted by dandelions

It's rare I would ever use the Stun on DPS unless it was my turn to interrupt something. Using this ability outside of set perimeters on most bosses will wipe the raid.

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Unless it's a boss that has a mechanic that needs stunning (ex: Ifrit's eruptions), you are free to stun to your heart's content. Also note that this is an optimal theoretical setup, and given the logic you propose one could argue a paladin would hold on to spirits within if the boss had a mechanic that needed silencing, or would never *always* be at 100% health to get the most out of spirits within. So if you give one the benefit of perfect playing conditions to do the calculations you need to give the other side the same benefit to be coherent.

That being said, when I'm not in fights where stun is needed for interruption purposes, i'll use stun liberally to bump my dps, and I haven't had problems doing this.

Yoshida:
Let's get down to business
To defeat the coil.
Did they send me WARs
When we asked for PLDS?
You're the saddest bunch I ever met
But you can bet before we're through
Mister, I'll make a tank
Out of you!

Defiance is a borefest
But ignoring it is a sin
Once you find your Wrath V
You are sure to win.

You're a spineless, weak pathetic lot
And you haven't got a clue.
Somehow I'll make a tank
Out of you.

I'm never gonna catch my breath
Say goodbye to those who knew me
Boy, was I a fool in pick axe as a tool!
This guy's got heals scared to death
Hope DMG doesn't go right through me
Now I really wish that I knew how to mitigate

[WHM] BE A TANK
We must be swift as a coursing river
[WHM] BE A TANK
With all the force of a great typhoon
[WHM] BE A TANK
With all the strength of a raging fire
Mysterious as the dark side of the moon

DMG is racing toward us
'til the Inner Beast drive.
Heed my every order
And you might survive.

You're unsuited for the rage of war
So pack up, go home you're through
How could I make a tank
Out of you?

[WHM] BE A TANK
We must be swift as a coursing river
[WHM] BE A TANK
With all the force of a great typhoon
[WHM] BE A TANK
With all the strength of a raging fire
Mysterious as the dark side of the moon

[everyone]BE A TANK
We must be swift as a coursing river
[everyone]BE A TANK
With all the force of a great typhoon
[everyone]BE A TANK
With all the strength of a raging fire
Mysterious as the dark side of the moon
Hoo-ah!

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Originally Posted by Tronic

That being said, you made a little boo boo in this equation.

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Yeah, it was one that I made when I was first putting them down (so used to using .0XXXs for multipliers >.<). I caught it on the latter 2, but didn't manage to catch and correct it on the first. Taking care of it now.

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Also, I'd include WAR's stun for completeness' sake in this equation.

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Stuns are a bit different from the silence from Spirits Within. There aren't that many fights where you really need a silence (Dhorne Chimera is the only one that I've seen). Stuns, on the other hand, are a major part of a lot of mechanics. As such, I wouldn't include Brutal Swing since it doesn't follow the same use case.

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Another point: since you're assuming "Auto-attacks provides a baseline 83.33 potency per GCD (2.5/3)", shouldn't you also assume that Sword Oath should be multiplied by 2.5/3? If so, PLDs optimal dps goes down to 417 from 423.

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The damage provided by your weapon as I listed isn't an assumption. That's just what it does. The damage from Sword Oath isn't a 50% increase in the damage of auto-attacks (I initially believed this but was corrected). As it turns out, Sword Oath deals a potency 50 blow every time you hit with an auto-attack. As such, the assumption I made that the attack rate was equal to the GCD (as previously mentioned, this is actually ends up devaluing the theoretical DPS because most PLD weapons lie in the 2.1-2.3 range) is explicitly that: an extra 50 per weapon swing, which occurs once per GCD. Sword Oath is a helluva lot stronger than you might think because of this.

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You state "Internal Release actually drops its contribution to 3.57% increase".

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That was an error in inputting the formula on my end. The number actually drops to 2.72%, which drops tank WAR potency per GCD by ~3.

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Also I think this section needs to include the effect of Unchained, given it's trying to determine optimal dps in tank stance.

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It's not about absolutely maximizing dps in tank stance. It's about maximizing DPS in tank stance while maintaining optimal mitigation. Mitigation is *still* the most important thing for a tank so using Unchained to maximize DPS works in contradiction of that.

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Or are you saying they create an additional 50% enmity bonus ON TOP OF the already existing 50% extra damage bonus?

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Yes. From what I've researched, critical hits generate an additional 50% threat on top of what they already generate by doing more damage. This makes losing Wrath a *lot* more significant than previously believed.

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P.S. Just realized through another post you should include the DPS from vengeance as well in all 3 sections! Add it as a modifier to autoattack, perhaps.

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Vengeance would make no sense to bring up for the non-tank DPS numbers. If you're not tanking, Vengeance is doing nothing for you because you're not getting attacked. Furthermore, Vengeance is *really* weird to factor in because there are so many variables that are outside of the tank's control. Even if it's a tank and spank fight, you can't be sure of the damage that vengeance will deal because you have to take a *specific* type of damage for it to go off: if the damage is fully absorbed by a shield or dodged, it doesn't deal damage. On top of that, you don't even know how fast the attacks will come because boss based attack rates differ and bosses use *loads* of casts. Under a baseline assumption of one attack every 2.5 seconds, ignoring dodges and fully absorbed attacks, Vengeance would add 6 ticks of 50 potency every 48 GCDs (120 seconds), or 6.25 damage potency. That's really not that much and it's making a *lot* of assumptions about its performance.

Basically, it boils down to Vengeance having *way* too many variables that I don't have solid numbers for that cause it to vacillate in performance *way* too much. Plus, even if it *was* used, it wouldn't add that much.

Btw, in case anyone asks, Inner Beast can easily be factored in because it deals the same damage as Fracture. An IB rotation would simply replace Fracture with it (you can't add in a Fracture later because then you'd lose 100% uptime on Storm's Eye).

P.S. Thanks for catching the math errors. I'm not perfect, nor do I have any delusions of being so. I post the formulas to go along with my numbers so that other people can vet them as well as understand them.

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Originally Posted by hola

sorry defense dont scale much at all.
ilv90 gloves give 113defense and ilv70 heavy darklight gloves give 109defense, whooping increased only by 4 (3%)with 20 itemlevel difference.

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Oh well was worth a shot. Thanks for the response.

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Originally Posted by dandelions

TLDR: It's not a free off GCD 50 potency 30 second CD attack; using it like so would get you kicked from any raid group.

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On top of that, even if you *do* use it on CD, it adds a whopping 4.167 potency per GCD. Combined with Vengeance (6.25 pot/GCD), that's ~11 potency total from abilities I chose to ignore for previously given reasons. It gives a slight advantage, but it's still well withing the realms of "barely better", especially when you perform the DPS dilution in raid damage scenarios as I said before. A 10% increase in DPS from a tank is a laughable contribution to total DPS.

Hi Kitru,

Your equations in the DPS in tanking stance section and Enmity section still have 1.02375 instead of 1.0476 for the Wrath V dps boost. 1.02375 was the DPS out-of-tanking-stance modifier for Internal Release, which you've changed already in tanking stance to 1.0272.

DPS in tanking stance equation:

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WAR:
(213.85 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 * /.9 * 1.02375 * 1.0272 * .75 = 334.66 potency per GCD

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Enmity in tanking stance equation:

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WAR:
(446.15 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 * /.9 * (1.02375 * 1.5) * (1.0272 * 1.5) * .75 * 2 = 2666.36 enmity potency per GCD

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I just found another boo-boo. In your enmity section you state about the PLD:

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"Put that into the optimized combo and you get 967 enmity per GCD ((2050 * 3 + 220) / 10)"

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If you calculate ((2050 * 3 + 220) / 10) it comes out to 637, not 967. That results in 1355 enmity potency per GCD for the paladin.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Yes. From what I've researched, critical hits generate an additional 50% threat on top of what they already generate by doing more damage. This makes losing Wrath a *lot* more significant than previously believed.

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This is ... interesting. So if you only want to maximize Enmity, you'd stick with a plain repeating BB combo and Wrath V:

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WAR:
(716.67 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 * /.9 * (1.02375 * 1.5) * (1.0272 * 1.5) * .75 * 2 = 4015 enmity potency per GCD

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However that result sounds just wayyy too high. Are you SURE the proper way to calculate isn't (1 + 0.0272*1.5) instead of (1.0272*1.5) ? Your original equation just doesn't make sense. I haven't seen real world results that suggest a war can multiply his aggro by 2.25 by using wrath 5 + internal release (because in the end you are multiplying everything by *1.5*1.5, not just the crit dmg).

P.S. Even though you conclude in the enmity section that "WARs *do* generate a metric shitton more enmity than a PLD does", you start off that section by saying "Another fun exercise is demonstrating that WAR doesn't even have an advantage over PLD as far as enmity is concerned." I guess you wrote that second line before you did the math?

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Originally Posted by Tronic

Your equations in the DPS in tanking stance section and Enmity section still have 1.02375 instead of 1.0476 for the Wrath V dps boost.

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Yes, I replaced the wrong number. This is what I get for changing numbers when I haven't eaten yet. Furthermore, the tiny edit/post windows make it hard as hell to see stuff. /shakefist

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I just found another boo-boo. In your enmity section you state about the PLD:
If you calculate ((2050 * 3 + 220) / 10) it comes out to 637, not 967. That results in 1355 enmity potency per GCD for the paladin.

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Corrected.

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This is ... interesting. So if you only want to maximize Enmity, you'd stick with a plain repeating BB combo and Wrath V:

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Yup. Even if Wrath V weren't there, the highest enmity/GCD you can generate is with BB spam.

I'm actually starting to think that the "secret" that the developers are privy to that we aren't is the regular use of Storm's Path. You don't need to use BB all that much because the enmity advantage is already so high, so the error we might be making is in completely abandoning the self-heal from it. I *doubt* it could make all that much of a different though, because, if you swap out 2 of the BB combos for SP, you'd only be getting 19.2 (250 * .5 * 2 / 13) damage potency as healing per GCD which is a fair bit less than Bloodbath (8.33% average potency as healing over time; at 342.45 potency per GCD, that's 28.5 damage potency as healing per GCD).

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However that result sounds just wayyy too high.

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I think you're right. It should be 1 + x * .5, not 1.x *1.5. I'll correct that. It'll likely bring the WAR enmity per GCD down to a more sane number.

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I guess you wrote that second line before you did the math?

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Yes, I did.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

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Funnily enough I can tank Ifrit HM -> Tomahawk x2 -> Storm's Path Combo then use Ability CDs, Infuriate, and Inner Beast (never touching Flash/Voke/BB Combo) and never lose hate.

It does give a 125-150HP return every 5s-7.5s-5s but it's still not nearly enough.

And yes you can do a Storm's Path rotation compounded occasionally with Berserk and Internal Release and Bloodbath and Unchained and Vengeance and it still doesn't account for enough self-healing at the back end of the fight to survive past the half way mark - WHM/SCH are going to have to compensate for you.

edit*

I'd like to point out it seems like WHM want to use their MP in the same manner as they would a PLD tanking - which just doesn't track for a WAR tank. It forces the Healer to be proactive - Stoneskin on a 6000HP WAR is easily worth 1000 Shield but I don't no how effective this would be considered in comparison to waiting for the tank to eat damage and simply using Cure II on them.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

It'll likely bring the WAR enmity per GCD down to a more sane number.

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As it turns out, the "sane number" is less than what PLD manages. Go further support for WAR being near-universally sub-par (and the one thing it does well being only slightly better than PLD)!

I had to see that unless there is a severe uptick in damage dealt while holding IB and HP cured by using IB, WAR has issues with both it's main tasks, dealing damage and healing himself.

STR and VIT can only get you so far. If you stacked VIT then you would not have enough strength to deal damage and heal yourself effectively. WAR made and geared this way would always be inferior to PLD because it's not doing damage, nor can he heal himself. AT best he can hold hate and take damage while all the mitigation was shifted onto the mages who then would rage quit from all the burden. Or suicide by hate pull.

On the other hand, stacking STR left you unable to take many hits even if you could cure yourself okay... but even then the cures were not that great and the damage was not that effective EVEN THEN.

So if you balanced STR and VIT you would have a cushion of HP... but not a large one and your STR would cure a greater percentage of HP but... you weren't doing THAT much more damage than a PLD. Still not enough.

I tried to go the Skill Speed Route. But that wasn't exactly effective all the time. I couldn't get my cooldowns down low enough to see a difference unless it was under special circumstances.... too special actually. So I had to abandon that route.

So I know I could do a lot of good self heals on a Crit though... but could Crit Rate ever be raised high enough to make a difference? At launch the Devs put a buff on Wrath Crit Rate and so I decided to try.

After nibbling on the bait and using the Malignant Mog Axe (+20 Crit) instead of my Bravura and making some cheap Preliminary melds on HQ jewelry I took my weird looking set into Garuda for testing and I was astounded by the results. Not only was I hitting criticals like mad but I was critting regularly on Inner Beast. Heck, even Blood Bath became worth while as my Auto attacks popped crits more often than my WS.

Encouraged I changed my melds from Skill Speed to Crit Rate and ate some Apkallu Omellette. The results were a Crit Rate of 33 percent over all. DPS went from 80 on average to 93 Without much particular effort.

TLDR: It seems to me that WARs should go STR>VIT>Crit and skip skillspeed all together. You have to have STR, you have to have VIT and you have to have Crit to play this...

This is my preliminary opinion. I don't know how much or the whole whys of the situation. I just know that my job just got a heck of a lot easier.

I have to add in 2cp from a Healer's PoV, its a much easier doing stuff with a Paladin than a Warrior. It just is. This is not to say it can't be done, it's just a lot easier, safer and more leeway for ****ups.

There are some awesome players out there who max out the Warrior's toolbox, but there just isn't enough to compare to Paladins.

Its like Warriors become fantastic once they have got what they need from the content they are doing, but actually doing it? I would take a Paladin everytime unless they were a complete douche.

The self Heals on warriors need to be tuned up significantly, so they have a true self stream of healing while in combat. As for doing more damage or aggroing better, I don't see it.

This is all from running instance from Satasha all the way to Garuda HM which I'm attempting to DF farm for my Garuda Primal weapon.

Just another Note:

Endgame WAR cannot be viable without Crafted Gear based on my findings.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Just another Note:

Endgame WAR cannot be viable without Crafted Gear based on my findings.

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Keep letting us know about your Optimal Garuda Kill Experiment.

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Originally Posted by Illya

I want to ask Yoshi what WAR is supposed to do for Titan HM then. Go as DPS just for that fight, since it's literally 10 million times easier to tank Titan HM as a PLD?

I tried to tank Titan HM as WAR today. I really did. I went in with Garuda's Scream, the AF+1 chest, and everything else DL except helmet. Mountain Buster was dropping 4.5k damage on me straight up and I have about 6.9k HP. How a healer is supposed to heal me through that with Cure II that does 1.3k healing on me is a mystery which no one has been able to solve..

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I think that means you're not as good as you think you are with Warrior.
EDIT: 4.5k is nothing, in TWP I tell dps to go all out on adds when I tank the King, so far with full Rancor buffs he hits for around 4.8k as much as I've seen, always been able to recover with buffed inner beast and a good healer, in fact, that's the only way I've been able to beat the fight. With dps killing adds asap I mean, rather than holding back. And I didn't even stack vit.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

I think that means you're not as good as you think you are with Warrior.
EDIT: 4.5k is nothing, in TWP I tell dps to go all out on adds when I tank the King, so far with full Rancor buffs he hits for around 4.8k as much as I've seen, always been able to recover with buffed inner beast and a good healer, in fact, that's the only way I've been able to beat the fight. With dps killing adds asap I mean, rather than holding back. And I didn't even stack vit.

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Well Wanderer's Palace is just like Titan so you basically just owned him. Nice one.

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Originally Posted by Faction

Well Wanderer's Palace is just like Titan so you basically just owned him. Nice one.

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Well, when you have people complaining about taking 4.5k damage from Titan, how can you expect me to not compare taking 4.8k damage from a lesser boss (in a single hit)? I mean, its like no one here knows how to play warrior at all, and its sad.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

Well, when you have people complaining about taking 4.5k damage from Titan, how can you expect me to not compare taking 4.8k damage from a lesser boss (in a single hit)? I mean, its like no one here knows how to play warrior at all, and its sad.

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Yeah for example someone still doing WP.

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Originally Posted by Faction

Yeah for example someone still doing WP.

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Not everyone poopsocks to endgame and leaves their buddies in the dust, then complains when they don't know how to play their job, tyvm.
I mean, come on. Even the devs say that it takes higher skill to play war. You just don't have that skill, obviously.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

Not everyone poopsocks to endgame and leaves their buddies in the dust, tyvm.

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Not everyone feels the need to comment on things they have absolutely 0 experience or knowledge of either, but here you are.

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Originally Posted by Faction

Not everyone feels the need to comment on things they have absolutely 0 experience or knowledge of either, but here you are.

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Says the person that doesn't know how to play their own class :eyeroll:
The devs themselves has said it takes a higher level of skill to play war. I don't see what you're keeping on about.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

Says the person that doesn't know how to play their own class :eyeroll:
The devs themselves has said it takes a higher level of skill to play war. I don't see what you're keeping on about.

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At least you're the #1 in your own world. Always important to be confident, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

Says the person that doesn't know how to play their own class :eyeroll:
The devs themselves has said it takes a higher level of skill to play war. I don't see what you're keeping on about.

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That's because devs are never wrong right?

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Originally Posted by Faction

At least you're the #1 in your own world. Always important to be confident, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

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I'm not #1, in my own world or any. I accept the fact that every time I tank, I am learning. Do you?

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Originally Posted by Amyas

I'm not #1. I accept the fact that every time I tank, I am learning. Do you?

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There's 1 way to play every job in this game. If you didn't figure it out in your first few runs at 50, you never will.

Keep convincing yourself that the people doing content you haven't and succeeding at it are somehow fucking something up in an MMORPG where there is a total of 1 extremely obvious skill rotation for every class that you should have down by level 40 though!

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Originally Posted by Faction

There's 1 way to play every job in this game. If you didn't figure it out in your first few runs at 50, you never will.

Keep convincing yourself that the people doing content you haven't and succeeding at it are somehow fucking something up in an MMORPG where there is a total of 1 extremely obvious skill rotation for every class that you should have down by level 40 though!

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I'm not the one complaining about not being able to complete content because of my class xD
PS: there's more to tanking than skill rotations.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

I'm not the one complaining about not being able to complete content because of my class xD
PS: there's more to tanking than skill rotations.

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Weird, pretty sure I'm completing content just fine. Pretty sure you aren't.

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Originally Posted by Faction

Weird, pretty sure I'm completing content just fine. Pretty sure you aren't.

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I don't care about poopsocking my way through content I will plow through eventually with my FC tyvm.

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Originally Posted by Faction

And no one cares about theory from someone who has not seen any challenging encounter in the game and thus has absolutely 0 basis to tell anyone else anything at all :)

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EDIT: Why are you even replying to me if you can clear titan HM with war? You've proved to yourself that War is just fine, I don't see what your problem with it is. Is it too stressful for you to keep up with? Is that it? Maybe try dd-ing? Or Pld? May be more your style since you want a stress-free play style.

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Originally Posted by Faction

"Imbalance doesn't matter because you did something and it took 10x more effort than it would have with the alternative."

Nice one, you should get a job at SE. You'd fit in swell.

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Ah, I see, you just want to take the path of least resistance. There's nothing wrong with that. But don't down other people that want to take on the challenge. I have pld and war to 50, so far the only difference is less damage and more mitigation with less buttons to press, therefore to me, pld is easymode tanking, war is hardmode. I really hope they don't change a thing, for the sake of all future Warriors.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

Ah, I see, you just want to take the path of least resistance. There's nothing wrong with that. But don't down other people that want to take on the challenge. I have pld and war to 50, so far the only difference is less damage and more mitigation with less buttons to press, therefore to me, pld is easymode tanking, war is hardmode. I really hope they don't change a thing, for the sake of all future Warriors.

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Yup not being able to tank some places because you blow up in seconds is so fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amyas

Ah, I see, you just want to take the path of least resistance. There's nothing wrong with that. But don't down other people that want to take on the challenge. I have pld and war to 50, so far the only difference is less damage and more mitigation with less buttons to press, therefore to me, pld is easymode tanking, war is hardmode. I really hope they don't change a thing, for the sake of all future Warriors.

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I'm sorry but there is nothing hard about warriors...nothing at all.Unless you mean that it's harder for the healers to keep you up, then yes warriors are way hardcore;)