Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

Havent actually done any theorycrafting on limit break myself. I've never noticed a crit, i have noticed its damage go up over time as ive geared up, although not a huge amount. I've never noticed its damage to be higher from blood for blood, it definitely has variance, so proving it is effected by heavy thrust would take quite a few test on the same mob.

LB is scaled on the global "gearing" of the group. Its not only your and it's indeed influenced by dps buffs.

Otherwise guys, don't have the courage to read the 33 pages, I dont have the possibility to do Coils for now and just wanted to know : should I change my DL accessories and take crafted ones to gain dps ? if yes, which ones ?

My LB (half dl and +1 relic) and the other dragoon (ifrit weapon, whites and greens) had a variance of about 18%

this thread doesnt matter at all.
no grp is happy with a drg in coil

/sad shinn

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Originally Posted by Shinn91

this thread doesnt matter at all.
no grp is happy with a drg in coil

/sad shinn

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And why is that?

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Originally Posted by Shinn91

this thread doesnt matter at all.
no grp is happy with a drg in coil

/sad shinn

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Some of the groups that are currently working on turn 5 do actually run with a DRG. I don't see an issue here.

I run coil turn 1-5 as DRG. There is no issue with it ^^ But pickup groups like to stack classes they see in videos, so... yeah, i think it could be hard to find a group lol.

Btw, is 470+ needed for Turn 4 / 500+ accuracy really needed for turn 5 ? :/

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

Btw, is 470+ needed for Turn 4 / 500+ accuracy really needed for turn 5 ? :/

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I'll check again this week, but I don't believe this is the case.

At least 470 is needed for turn 4, I cannot say on turn 5 however. I was just under 470 by a little bit and had a couple misses.

Can't say i missed in turn 5 yet. I'm exactly at 470acc. (Todays drop brings me to 474 though) But i only got so far as to see phase 3 of the fight, so there might be some changes further in.

I have a few questions.

- How is critical damage calculated? Most games it's like double damage, but that doesn't seem to be the case in FFXIV.
- Is determination better to get over skill speed, even when they contribute the same quantity of stats according to the strength equivalency table? It seems like having skill speed has the liability of DoT clipping and such.
- Does it matter if I use my high damage off-GCD actions (mostly jumps) before or after Disembowel? I usually use my lower damage off-GCDs early in my rotation and save my high damage ones for after I get my buffs, but this doesn't seem to be focused upon in the write-up, so I'm wondering if it matters.

bis bracelet/boots in turn 5 only

depressing~

anyway, DRG isn't exactly the strongest class to bring in coil, and is overshadowed by MNK in a few aspects, but they work fine for turn 1-5`

Yikes lots to absorb for a newbie,
Drg sounds like a class for those that are experienced. I was going to switch from Gld to this, now not 100% sure. Great write up.

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Originally Posted by Mantrus

I have a few questions.

- How is critical damage calculated? Most games it's like double damage, but that doesn't seem to be the case in FFXIV.
- Is determination better to get over skill speed, even when they contribute the same quantity of stats according to the strength equivalency table? It seems like having skill speed has the liability of DoT clipping and such.
- Does it matter if I use my high damage off-GCD actions (mostly jumps) before or after Disembowel? I usually use my lower damage off-GCDs early in my rotation and save my high damage ones for after I get my buffs, but this doesn't seem to be focused upon in the write-up, so I'm wondering if it matters.

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1) From my experience crits are 2x damage, there is just some variation around all damage in the game so it wont be exactly 2x your full damage each time. If a hit can vary from 90-110 you might crit for 180 sometimes or 220 others. There also might be issues with some buffs falling off prior to whatever ability you are critting. However, this could be wrong and someone else can feel free to use math to defeat me.

2) Dunno how you got DET and SS as equal given stat weights, DET is at 0.22 and SS at 0.146, so DET is worth a good deal more.

3) Aim to use your best damage abilities (PS/Jump, Life Surge) after Disembowel. It isn't focused on, but is implied by the off-GCD rotation in the first post.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Yikes lots to absorb for a newbie,
Drg sounds like a class for those that are experienced. I was going to switch from Gld to this, now not 100% sure. Great write up.

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It's actually quite an intuitive class as the GCD ability rotations can only ever consist of three groups of abilities. Either your True Thrust Combo, Impulse Drive Combo, or Heavy Thrust/DoT(s) "combo". Once you get in that mindset it flows quite well. Also I love this thread because everything is here, you don't have to scour multiple websites/resources for your answers. And anything that isn't here you can feel free to ask and you'll receive a speedy reply from the very helpful (and mostly knowledgeable) Dragoon community!

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Originally Posted by Zandiya

Amazing but sadly I think this will be extremely difficult to pull off on the ps3 :(

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I agree, I am on PS3 and even though the cross / hotbars are customized to ones liking. It's cumbersome and sometime just plain painful to watch my thumbs and fingers push the wrong buttons because of a left brain / right brain malfunction.

For you Guru's that are posting this.. you think you can put together a MACRO for us PS3 users.

I'm not talking acronyms either. Some of us who play this game are actually just casual gamers. The algorithm examples listed in this thread make my freaking HEAD hurt. I just want some basic simplicity in the example of a Full Rotation / Macro

This game is killing me man. When i fought the Demon Wall in AK i swear my DPS was freaking LOW and yeah I had Ifrits weapon.
Something was wrong and i guess it was me spamming the same skill over and over. Help a brother out.

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Originally Posted by Arland

Can't say i missed in turn 5 yet. I'm exactly at 470acc. (Todays drop brings me to 474 though) But i only got so far as to see phase 3 of the fight, so there might be some changes further in.

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My DRG just got done with Ifrit HM and.. after 61 times (36 wins) with random peeps using DF. I finally got Ifrits weapon.
Next on my list was farming CM for some darklight gear as well as AK for some lvl 60 greens.
Question i have is.. So far i purchased Dark Light ( maiming ) gear as it adds Accuracy while Dark Light ( striking ) adds Critical
My NERF'd DRG stands at 460 Accuracy with total of 5 peices of Dark Light Gear. None by the way are ARMOR other than Helm.
All my DRK LIGHT gear is Accessories. Should I save my self time running CM and resources by not buying anymore gear as 460 should be ideal for COIL.

Back on the limit break topic, there were some theories about monk's LB being stronger than dragoon's LB. Is there any truth to that?

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LB is scaled on the global "gearing" of the group. Its not only your and it's indeed influenced by dps buffs.

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So would it matter if everyone activated at once all their damage buffs at the moment the DPS uses the LB?

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Originally Posted by aray0002

I agree, I am on PS3 and even though the cross / hotbars are customized to ones liking. It's cumbersome and sometime just plain painful to watch my thumbs and fingers push the wrong buttons because of a left brain / right brain malfunction.

For you Guru's that are posting this.. you think you can put together a MACRO for us PS3 users.

I'm not talking acronyms either. Some of us who play this game are actually just casual gamers. The algorithm examples listed in this thread make my freaking HEAD hurt. I just want some basic simplicity in the example of a Full Rotation / Macro

This game is killing me man. When i fought the Demon Wall in AK i swear my DPS was freaking LOW and yeah I had Ifrits weapon.
Something was wrong and i guess it was me spamming the same skill over and over. Help a brother out.

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The best suggestion I can make here is to invest in a keyboard/mouse compatible with the PS3. That might not be as helpful as suggesting macros(I haven't played around with those myself yet), but it's a much better control scheme than a controller.

I dont see the problem with using Dragoons on gamepad, i am doing fine with it personally. I use some very minor macros to save up some clutter but thats it. The gamepad actually even makes movement a bit more comfortable. Its a bit harder to attack while moving on keyboard and mouse.

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Originally Posted by aray0002

This game is killing me man. When i fought the Demon Wall in AK i swear my DPS was freaking LOW and yeah I had Ifrits weapon.
Something was wrong and i guess it was me spamming the same skill over and over. Help a brother out.

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Did you know that you can still get flanks on demon wall? Get your heavy thrust! Other than that make sure your Phlebotomize and Fracture are always ticking. After the Knockback use a Spineshatter Dive or Dragonfire Dive to get back to the wall as fast possible.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Yikes lots to absorb for a newbie,
Drg sounds like a class for those that are experienced. I was going to switch from Gld to this, now not 100% sure. Great write up.

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I have no more than 1 month playing (main DRG) and I can say that you learn a lot in the road.

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- How is critical damage calculated? Most games it's like double damage, but that doesn't seem to be the case in FFXIV.

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Crits are 1.5x in FF14.

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- Is determination better to get over skill speed, even when they contribute the same quantity of stats according to the strength equivalency table? It seems like having skill speed has the liability of DoT clipping and such.

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Assuming the weights add up to the same, then it's personal preference.

SS has 1 objective detriment and that is you will burn TP marginally faster. On the other hand, it has 1 subjective benefit, and that is that you can get your attacks in slightly more quickly (e.g. boss is casting a tail swipe, and your Heavy Thrust needs to cycle down the GCD so you can use Impulse Drive, WILL YOU MAKE IT? -- 0.05s off the GCD over 8 attacks could let you get the ID off cleanly).

There's also the fringe subjective disadvantage to SS where you have brain lag and then use an OGCD late. Higher SS will cause animation clipping whereas less SS will cause less animation clipping. This is pretty rare, although maybe it's more applicable re: jumps.

Overall SS versus DET/CRT have very minor practical tradeoffs back and forth assuming the stat weights add up to similar amounts.

[QUOTE=aray0002;1394075
For you Guru's that are posting this.. you think you can put together a MACRO for us PS3 users.

I'm not talking acronyms either. Some of us who play this game are actually just casual gamers. The algorithm examples listed in this thread make my freaking HEAD hurt. I just want some basic simplicity in the example of a Full Rotation / Macro
[/QUOTE]

/ac "Blood for Blood"
/ac "Phlebotomize"

/ac "Life Surge"
/ac "Full Thrust"

/ac "Power Surge"
/ac "Impulse Drive"

/ac "Jump"
/ac "Disembowel"

/ac "Internal Release"
/ac "Chaos Thrust"

Those should be some basic ones that will trigger your CD's for their important abilities and should free up some action bar space. You can also just hit them once (for the case of the last 3 being your behind the target combo) to trigger the OGCD abilitites between your TT->FT combo.

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Originally Posted by Vies

The best suggestion I can make here is to invest in a keyboard/mouse compatible with the PS3. That might not be as helpful as suggesting macros(I haven't played around with those myself yet), but it's a much better control scheme than a controller.

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Unfortunately this isn't an option. (Unless something changed) there was an announcement that keyboard/mouse as an interface was not being implemented on the PS3 due to memory limitations, and a keyboard could only be used for typing.

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Originally Posted by aray0002

I agree, I am on PS3 and even though the cross / hotbars are customized to ones liking. It's cumbersome and sometime just plain painful to watch my thumbs and fingers push the wrong buttons because of a left brain / right brain malfunction.

For you Guru's that are posting this.. you think you can put together a MACRO for us PS3 users.

I'm not talking acronyms either. Some of us who play this game are actually just casual gamers. The algorithm examples listed in this thread make my freaking HEAD hurt. I just want some basic simplicity in the example of a Full Rotation / Macro

This game is killing me man. When i fought the Demon Wall in AK i swear my DPS was freaking LOW and yeah I had Ifrits weapon.
Something was wrong and i guess it was me spamming the same skill over and over. Help a brother out.

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I've toyed with a bunch of macros, from simple to complicated, and as time goes on I use them less and less (choosing to have the skills naively on a button instead).

Here are some random thoughts/tips/experiences that I've had:

• Make sure you set every one of your crossbars to show either only in, or only out, of combat. I have 1-4 only in combat, and 5-8 only out of combat.
• You may also want to set your weapon to never auto-sheath... you risk hitting an action you didn't want to.
• Additionally, you can further set which crossbars will toggle with a single tap of R1.
• DRG only really needs two crossbars for all the skills you'll use regularly (for me, cbar 1 and 2. cbar 4 contains AoE skills and limit break, which is switched to manually when needed).
• You can duplicate skills on both crossbars, i.e. leg sweep, so that it's always on the same button no matter which crossbar you are on.
• My crossbars are largely the same, the main difference being the two main combos change. Again, it's a single tap of R1 to switch between them. There are some other small differences but nothing important
• As for the macros themselves, you can tie your off-global cool down actions to the GCD action to you want to use it right before. The downside is there's no queuing of actions this way (you cannot pre-input a command) and you have to spam that button non-stop the entire time to make sure both the OGCD and GCD both fire as quickly as possible.
• You can add Power Surge to a macro with Jump and Spineshatter, but remember you wouldn't actually want to use those both in a row. You'd want to use a GCD ability in between. But with the way macros work, you can put several items in one macro and it will skip over anything it cannot execute. So the first time I hit that macro, Power Surge goes off. The next time I hit that macro, Jump goes off because Power Surge is on cooldown.
• You can, but it's a terribly bad idea, put all three actions of a combo in one macro (with a /wait 3 between them) but it would be a significant loss of DPS.
• You can also add a command to change your crossbar after an action... for example after the third action of a combo that macro can then also /chotbar X setting you up for your next combo. I've never actually used this one so I can't speak for how well it works in combat.
• I put all my defensive actions into 1 macro. If things go bad, I fire everything defensively I can by spamming that button. Not the absolute best way of doing it, but to save that crossbar space I find it worthwhile.

For 3 mob trash pulls is it better to HT>RoT>IDC>DS till heavy falls off or is it better to
HT>RoT>IDC>I> Switch targets>DC>Main targetHT>RoT>I>Switch targets>DC>Doomspike spam.

For 2 mobs it seems like rotation 2 is better dropping an IDC for the thrid target and sticking a PB on each target before DS spam.

I have a tank that can hold the threat and TP is no problem with invigorate and switching to single target before I go dry. Just curious what would do better for shaving a little time off ak farm.

For 3mob trash, it's efficient to just spam HT + ROT repeatedly than to use IDC.

However, if the primary target will be alive for more than 20s, then IDC breaks even. If the secondary targets will be alive for more than 40s, then IDC is worth. If you have a bard also pew pewing to take advantage of the DE debuff, then it is worth.

Phlebotomizing each target is also good in general -- slightly less DPS than HT-ROT, slightly better damage per TP.


Doomspike is higher DPS, but significantly less efficient than HT-ROT. Against 5+ targets it becomes efficient for TP over HT-ROT.

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Originally Posted by PixelTrooper

I have no more than 1 month playing (main DRG) and I can say that you learn a lot in the road.

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Well i may switch to try anyhow seing as i am slowly leveling up every class. Just my PS3 is out of order for now :(

A lot of useful info here for a job that none wants to bring to coil...

If anyone's interested, I uploaded my spreadsheet: http://www.filedropper.com/ff14

The documentation in it is not complete, so it's mainly intended for folks that can randomly interpret excel formulas.

Also, any references to manual corrections for DOT clipping are obsolete; clipped DOTs are calculated automatically (but the game system invalidating a DOT overwrite due to buffs/no buffs is not handled, so don't clip or if you do, prepare to adjust your rotation manually to compensate).

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Originally Posted by Ariahna

A lot of useful info here for a job that none wants to bring to coil...

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I would say that this is mostly accurate. Every discussion I've seen about whether or not melee have a place in coil boils down to whether you want to trade damage for ease of completion. The main benefit to melee dps is damage, and they will perform better than the other classes if played correctly. However, very few of the fights in Coil are enough of a dps race that the added damage from the melee makes the difference. Turn 1 favors utility since extra damage isn't needed (the fight is a snore and can even be kited) and ranged can do everything a melee can on the fight while still providing the added utility to make it easier. Turn 2 ranged have a simpler time avoiding AE (though this isn't much of an issue if you play right), they don't have to pause dps to pass their rot debuff, and since Turn 2 is a survival fight a little extra dps doesn't mean much over the increase in survivability provided by range. People might argue that downing the fight faster is increasing "survivability" since it reduces the chances for mistakes, but there aren't many groups that will agree that the slight reduction in fight duration is worth losing the utility of silences/mana/rot/AE avoidance.

Turn 4 is probably the first instance where every ounce of dps you can squeeze out is worth it. Dragoon AE is quite good so the group doesn't suffer there, and the added single target damage and limit break is good for the Dreadnaughts and the single Rook spawn. The only downside to taking a Dragoon over a caster dps is the added AE damage from the soldiers, but this is only a factor on the 4-soldier spawn and any Dragoon that knows anything about weaving in and out of melee range between GCDs can essentially counteract almost all of that damage.

In short, I agree with you on Turns 1 and 2, but not on Turn 4. Currently, finding a good Free Company is probably your best bet, since I do not see much motivation for PUG groups to want melee (for the moment) as they would primarily aim for the least complicated Turn 1/2 completion.

Could I ask what kind of range of DPS an average Dragoon should be doing in Coil at the various bosses/mini bosses?

I realize it varies depending on gear and party strategy, but it would be nice to know if I'm within the ball park or possibly doing something horribly wrong.

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Originally Posted by Casterbridge

Could I ask what kind of range of DPS an average Dragoon should be doing in Coil at the various bosses/mini bosses?

I realize it varies depending on gear and party strategy, but it would be nice to know if I'm within the ball park or possibly doing something horribly wrong.

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Only parsed in turn 4 thus far and i was around +/- 220dps.

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Originally Posted by Lundrai

spreadsheet stuff

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The rotation you're using in the spreadsheet, what happened to us using Fracture?

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Originally Posted by Foullacy

The rotation you're using in the spreadsheet, what happened to us using Fracture?

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Any rotation being used in this spreadsheet is basically experimentation. The rotation can be easily modified. Each ability on each half-GCD is a drop down box so you can build any rotation you like.

Hi Ayver. Im having some issues with my drg. I made macro's outta that huge list for the final form setup rotation. I keep being last or second last in the p[arser and cant figure out why at all. help me out plz

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Originally Posted by Mikai

Hi Ayver. Im having some issues with my drg. I made macro's outta that huge list for the final form setup rotation. I keep being last or second last in the p[arser and cant figure out why at all. help me out plz

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Because you just don't macro your rotation as a Dragoon. As far as I know /wait only uses integer numbers, so you'll be wasting a whole lot of time between your GCD skills (0.5 seconds or even more, depending on your skill speed). I also don't know if or how your macro makes use of off-GCD skills. I would strongly suggest to not use macros as DRG. Learn how to do the rotation without macros and remember that positioning is key to certain skills.

Also being last or second last in the parser doesn't really account for anything, as none of the available parsers is working 100% correct (due to the combat log not properly tracing all of the damage, namely DoT damage). And it also all boil down to you running with much better geared people, in which case no rotation in the world can help you to close the gap, unless you get yourself better gear.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

Also being last or second last in the parser doesn't really account for anything, as none of the available parsers is working 100% correct (due to the combat log not properly tracing all of the damage, namely DoT damage).

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As I told my FC last night: if I'm on the top of the parser then it's working 100% accurately. If I'm not, it's totally buggy and not counting my damage. ^_-

Edit: But the parser is useful for broad ballpark estimates of how badly you're doing. Just don't take the individual numbers or numbers between two different classes too seriously. Unless you're beating another class that has 2 tiers higher gear than you. Then feel free to roflololo, but try not to be a douchebag.

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

Back on the limit break topic, there were some theories about monk's LB being stronger than dragoon's LB. Is there any truth to that?

So would it matter if everyone activated at once all their damage buffs at the moment the DPS uses the LB?

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That's something that totally worth a test imho :) And as someone mentionned, if you got relic+1, your lb will do more damage

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Originally Posted by Ariahna

A lot of useful info here for a job that none wants to bring to coil...

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What reason do people have or they just hate Dragoons?

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Originally Posted by Maero

What reason do people have or they just hate Dragoons?

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From whatI've seen the big issues is the fights are generally unfriendly to melee. Next a lot of the dragoon utility is useless in the raid. Most believe a monk has better single target damage than dragoon (not saying this is true or untrue just stating popular opinion I've seen) also the monk has slightly better usable utility.

So, especially in PuG groups, dragoons are pretty much bottom of the barrel choice wise, with monks close behind, it's just easier to bring ranged dps, think the most popular groups formed right now are 2x paladins, 2x bard, 1x BM, 1x other ranged, 1x White Mage and 1x Scholar.

Again this is what I'm seeing as popular opinion, doesn't mean a dragoon can't go in and do well in Coil.