Hissatsu: Kaiten

Was making character on Primal a mistake? Am beginning to feel that it was.

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Originally Posted by Lium

So, what you're saying is it's not false. Just that more voices spoke up since the creation of that other thread.

I would be interested in reading your source. Unless of course, you speak/read Japanese, then no link is necessary. I'll just take your word for it. :D

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I do in fact speak/read Japanese. It's not the best but it's good enough to communicate. You can simply view the megathread over in the JP section of this forum, under the DPS section. The part where its claimed to be accepted was before they actually knew of any number changes.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Was making character on Primal a mistake? Am beginning to feel that it was.

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have you seen the state of primal DF lately? it's been the worst it has ever been, even worse than pre-EW

Kaiten gave sam a unique feeling to the class. it also allowed for some decision making on your rotation. Please dont remove that. i dont agree with the reasoning because you couldve just upgraded shoha and shoha 2 to be an aoe with damage fall off like other moves youve done this expansion. spirits within is a perfect example. you couldve also mixed ikishoten into one set of buttons following a pattern like the confitor combo. Kaiten doesnt seem to be the problem in my opinion. Please reconsider other ways. end all i feel youre changing the feel of samurai with the removal of kaiten

I don't often post on the forums, but I feel that I have to voice out on this issue.

As a long time SAM player/main since Stormblood was released, I have to say that removing Kaiten is not it. After trying it out, the flow of combat just seems to be a lot less smooth than before. Also the potency changes to make the dps not spike as much makes the big moves hit like a wet noodle. The reason why I played SAM was to have big spike windows where you can deal big damage. Now the new dmg curve makes me fall asleep cause all skills dmg feel exactly the same. There is no IMPACT.

Well anyways, its just really simple. As can be seen with most posts on the forum, I would suggest to revert the changes as SAM was already in a good spot. If anything the more urgent class to overhaul is MCH cause it is really suboptimal compared to the rest of the dps classes in terms of what it can offer.

As for the future, if things are kept as is, hardcore SAM players like me will just switch classes as much as we love the class, as there are much better substitutes that will not screw the party over if planning to prog in the new ultimate. Really disappointing changes to the loyal SAM base as a whole.

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Originally Posted by ThivraK

have you seen the state of primal DF lately? it's been the worst it has ever been, even worse than pre-EW

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Pfffff aye most unfortunately. My partner was messing around on our PS4 account when for the first time (and our luck tis fricken awful) we encountered the infamous "Do not tell me how to play" tank. Not only did they refuse to use cooldowns despite many many pleas from monk of all the people, they would not aoe.

The monk was being most cordial too! Something close to; "Using aoes will help you to maintain aggro on all enemies" nothing hostile at all. This was Keeper of the Lake so you expect encountering new players there. This tank had full blown baby rage meltdown and even shirked the healer to death. The healer was not even the one who spoke up.. so they were executed without reason. Probably just some poor smuck doing their 50/60/70/80 roulette.

At the least there is happy ending. They were yeeted from the dungeon at the final boss. Friends are having some of the worst time they have ever had just attempting to progress through the story and level some alt jobs, it is sadness inducing.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Was making character on Primal a mistake? Am beginning to feel that it was.

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You bet it was I hate it here

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Pfffff aye most unfortunately. My partner was messing around on our PS4 account when for the first time (and our luck tis fricken awful) we encountered the infamous "Do not tell me how to play" tank. Not only did they refuse to use cooldowns despite many many pleas from monk of all the people, they would not aoe.

The monk was being most cordial too! Something close to; "Using aoes will help you to maintain aggro on all enemies" nothing hostile at all. This was Keeper of the Lake so you expect encountering new players there. This tank had full blown baby rage meltdown and even shirked the healer to death. The healer was not even the one who spoke up.. so they were executed without reason. Probably just some poor smuck doing their 50/60/70/80 roulette.

At the least there is happy ending. They were yeeted from the dungeon at the final boss. Friends are having some of the worst time they have ever had just attempting to progress through the story and level some alt jobs, it is sadness inducing.

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My friend had to deal with a toxic player when he started playing as a tank and was chased off, later on he came back to FFXIV and had a better expirience the second time. so far i have not met any toxic players but i've had to deal with some players playing in very weird ways

anyway enough about this as it sidetracks the thread

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Originally Posted by ThivraK

have you seen the state of primal DF lately? it's been the worst it has ever been, even worse than pre-EW

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what content gives duty finder issues? I'm on primal and everything in dutyfinder is braindead easy

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Originally Posted by forsakee

what content gives duty finder issues? I'm on primal and everything in dutyfinder is braindead easy

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I think they are referring to how queueing as a DPS in DF has stupid long waiting times

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Originally Posted by SaeMitsuha

I don't often post on the forums, but I feel that I have to voice out on this issue.

As a long time SAM player/main since Stormblood was released, I have to say that removing Kaiten is not it. After trying it out, the flow of combat just seems to be a lot less smooth than before. Also the potency changes to make the dps not spike as much makes the big moves hit like a wet noodle. The reason why I played SAM was to have big spike windows where you can deal big damage. Now the new dmg curve makes me fall asleep cause all skills dmg feel exactly the same. There is no IMPACT.

Well anyways, its just really simple. As can be seen with most posts on the forum, I would suggest to revert the changes as SAM was already in a good spot. If anything the more urgent class to overhaul is MCH cause it is really suboptimal compared to the rest of the dps classes in terms of what it can offer.

As for the future, if things are kept as is, hardcore SAM players like me will just switch classes as much as we love the class, as there are much better substitutes that will not screw the party over if planning to prog in the new ultimate. Really disappointing changes to the loyal SAM base as a whole.

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If by revert, you mean to pre 6.0, then yes. 6.0 changes suck and should be changed.

I never have played Sam but how bad are all the 6.1 changes compared to Sam?

I have a strong feeling the potency nerfs on the moves that now guarantee crits made them a lot worse

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Originally Posted by Cpt_Jack_Irons

I never have played Sam but how bad are all the 6.1 changes compared to Sam?

I have a strong feeling the potency nerfs on the moves that now guarantee crits made them a lot worse

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It was a 3dps loss lol.

Everyone's just upset the wind up is gone. It's just funny to me because this change isn't as bad in my eyes as what they did in 6.0, but everyone seems fine with that.

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Originally Posted by Cpt_Jack_Irons

I never have played Sam but how bad are all the 6.1 changes compared to Sam?

I have a strong feeling the potency nerfs on the moves that now guarantee crits made them a lot worse

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It actually did. If I remember right to get the damage kaiten had u need to now also direct hit just to get a kaiten boosted 3 sen attack. Essentially it's a 20% nerf on top of ur potency going down...I think...its been a while since touching SAM for me.

It's so frustrating to think that nothing will change for probably multiple monthes.

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Originally Posted by Syln

It's so frustrating to think that nothing will change for probably multiple monthes.

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I've been on insane amounts of copium, they are going to fix sam before ultimate release tuesday.

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Originally Posted by forsakee

I've been on insane amounts of copium, they are going to fix sam before ultimate release tuesday.

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I'm running low on my copium can I have some of urs? Been on it since SHB because I miss healing being fun

Ex-Ast/healer main here to give condolences to the SAM mains.
I know how it feels to lose your identity, I've been there.

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Originally Posted by Jybril

Ex-Ast/healer main here to give condolences to the SAM mains.
I know how it feels to lose your identity, I've been there.

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I don't think this made SAM lose its identity, but it did remove the satisfaction of winding up for a big hit, which was pretty appealing for a lot of people. SAM as a concept and by design is still SAM. But I do think they need to put this ability back or, failing that, buff those crits back up to compensate for its absence.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It was a 3dps loss lol.

Everyone's just upset the wind up is gone. It's just funny to me because this change isn't as bad in my eyes as what they did in 6.0, but everyone seems fine with that.

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It's a 3 DPS loss in a vacuum. In a crit heavy party comp it's ~3%, which is closer to 300 DPS. And that's an average; the top line with good crit luck (the kind of parse that would carry an undergeared group limping over a rough DPS check) is down significantly more because of the guaranteed crits.

3% is crippling to a job that only brings DPS, and as a result was seen as the best beneficiary of crit comp parties and buffs. I've seen reports of party finder groups now barring SAM due to them running a crit comp, and many players have felt the need to gear up and practice other jobs because SAM no longer fits their static's Ultimate comp.

The damage ultimately doesn't matter to me. I would be happy to have the current DPS averages, if they feel the need to nerf the job, as long as I get to keep Kaiten and feel like I have any sort of agency over my burst damage again.

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Originally Posted by YukiB

It's a 3 DPS loss in a vacuum. In a crit heavy party comp it's ~3%, which is closer to 300 DPS. And that's an average; the top line with good crit luck (the kind of parse that would carry an undergeared group limping over a rough DPS check) is down significantly more because of the guaranteed crits.

3% is crippling to a job that only brings DPS, and as a result was seen as the best beneficiary of crit comp parties and buffs. I've seen reports of party finder groups now barring SAM due to them running a crit comp, and many players have felt the need to gear up and practice other jobs because SAM no longer fits their static's Ultimate comp.

The damage ultimately doesn't matter to me. I would be happy to have the current DPS averages, if they feel the need to nerf the job, as long as I get to keep Kaiten and feel like I have any sort of agency over my burst damage again.

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But like who cares about parse parties? If you get all your buffs but still don't crit your opener because RNG you wall it. You keep at it until you get lucky.

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Originally Posted by YukiB

It's a 3 DPS loss in a vacuum. In a crit heavy party comp it's ~3%, which is closer to 300 DPS. And that's an average; the top line with good crit luck (the kind of parse that would carry an undergeared group limping over a rough DPS check) is down significantly more because of the guaranteed crits.

3% is crippling to a job that only brings DPS, and as a result was seen as the best beneficiary of crit comp parties and buffs. I've seen reports of party finder groups now barring SAM due to them running a crit comp, and many players have felt the need to gear up and practice other jobs because SAM no longer fits their static's Ultimate comp.

The damage ultimately doesn't matter to me. I would be happy to have the current DPS averages, if they feel the need to nerf the job, as long as I get to keep Kaiten and feel like I have any sort of agency over my burst damage again.

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It never really felt like agency though, outside of "did I get lucky" I had so many runs with not a single crit, let along DIrect Crit in my opener, and that was in 5.x, and it felt awful. I hated the addition of Oki so I didn't really give it a try in 6.0 after I got to max level and just despised the new rotation, but I'm sure it felt just as terrible to get no crits with a crit comp lol.

I think i can count the number of times I messed up on kenki and didn't have enough for kaiten on my fingers across the whole of 5.x. It was just muscle memory. There was no real thinking involved. Tho, in this case, I'd rather have Kaiten than Oki Namikiri. I hate that change more than anything else they've ever done to the job.

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Originally Posted by forsakee

I've been on insane amounts of copium, they are going to fix sam before ultimate release tuesday.

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I'll take some :D

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Originally Posted by Katori96

I'm running low on my copium can I have some of urs? Been on it since SHB because I miss healing being fun

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The amount of copium needed here will depend on how often they've reverted controversial changes, which doesn't seem to be too often.

1) Midare is a great event you preparing during main rotation. And Kaiten was a prelude. A big part of rotation, not just some random buff you can miss. And somthing your reflexes, after several years of playing are searching right now
Then you say @yeah babe lets do dat big juicy crit (now guarateed). It also looks good by itself. Now midare is just another big hit that happens somtimes.
2) Kenki management is dead. If you want simplify just give stacks to kaiten.