What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

So, emotions bad, logic good. Anime, bad. ������ Got it. I bet you're just a joy when watching movies.

And yeah, they would believe her, maybe? We don't know if they would. We don't know how Hermes would react. Again, telling them might be what sets off the fear leading to the Final Days in the first place.

Also, as beings of basically pure Aether, the Ancients couldn't reallly reach Meteion or fight her. Her realm is pure Dynamis, which the Ancients couldn't manipulate. Also, they needed massive amounts of Aether just to power the ship from a thousand thousand years of gathered energy from the Mother crystal. Chances are, the Ancients would probably have had to sacrifice many of their number just to power the engines. Third, there's the personality of most of the Ancients. They have no clue how to overcome despair. They never dealt with it. They couldn't even recognize the depression in Hermes, much less have a way to treat it.

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I really dont get where this "Ancients couldnt manipulate dynamis" loophole is coming from.We see them use lb's in the dungeon. We know they have a facility capable of training them in that field. Also yes, logic is good. When you build a story around specific pieces of lore, but then throw all that lore out of the window just because...rule of cool, its kind of a problem for a lot of people. I dont think its really a maybe if they'd believe her. As we saw, Emet has his duty. Whether he believes someone or not, he needs to investigate due to his duty of the star. However, he knows he was mind wiped. All Venat has to do is tell him what happened along with the events leading up to the mind wipe. People act like she was some random citizen. She was Azem, an ex convocation member. Also, they dealt with suffering. We see this throughout the side quests on Elpis and even in Pandaemonium. So not sure where that comes from either.Also i'd say they overcame it considering they survived and summoned Zodiark...

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Didn't Venat show us magic that would show what happened in a particular place (kind of like the echo?). How hard would it be for her to show Emet and Hyth what happened at several locations to prove what she said was true? She had a tracker on Metion. There had to be research records on Metions design. People keep acting like it's just Venat's word against everyone. There is evidence and there are witnesses... we spent our whole time in Elpis finding it. The memwipe was a cheesy gimmick, imo. Emet and Hyth believed us... why wouldn't they believe Venat? Heck... wouldn't a cursory look at the Krono or whatever it was called show there was no malfunction?

Let's also not forget the warning could have come BEFORE the final days even started, lending credibility to the claim.... it's not like she had to wait until catastrophe hit to tell anyone.

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There are a few things we can piece together. There were two things that could be done with the memory that was explained. 1 is that memories from locations fade away fairly quickly. 2 is to invade another persons soul to see memories. From what we can tell, the Ancients frown heavily upon invading another persons privacy. With Hermes former comrade deciding to die and Hermes never getting an answer for it, even when they were close, Hermes could of easily looked at anyones memories in their soul. Heck, Emet could of done that the moment you met. From the looks of it even if they have that power to do so, they refuse to look at memories in another soul for answers. For the way they take it, it could be considered as hard "R-ing" the individual if they do it forcefully or even willingly since anything could be seen.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I really dont get where this "Ancients couldnt manipulate dynamis" loophole is coming from.We see them use lb's in the dungeon. We know they have a facility capable of training them in that field. Also yes, logic is good. When you build a story around specific pieces of lore, but then throw all that lore out of the window just because...rule of cool, its kind of a problem for a lot of people. I dont think its really a maybe if they'd believe her. As we saw, Emet has his duty. Whether he believes someone or not, he needs to investigate due to his duty of the star. However, he knows he was mind wiped. All Venat has to do is tell him what happened along with the events leading up to the mind wipe. People act like she was some random citizen. She was Azem, an ex convocation member. Also, they dealt with suffering. We see this throughout the side quests on Elpis and even in Pandaemonium. So not sure where that comes from either.Also i'd say they overcame it considering they survived and summoned Zodiark...

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They have "theories" of it's existence but there are no "schools", I guess that is the word I want to use, to investigate it. It's like trying to investigate, "Human Prayer". You say it's dumb to do that, sure. I'm not saying you should. But you are saying the ancients, with all their current knowledge, should of taken into consideration to experiment on Praying, Miracles, and Faith. People barely do that even in the real world and the ancients viewed Dynamis the same way.

They didn't view dynamis in any way, because they weren't generally aware of it - and up until extremely recently, neither were the sundered. Hermes managed to glean some things about it, all of which was lost because of the memory wipe sequence, which Venat was spared from.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I really dont get where this "Ancients couldnt manipulate dynamis" loophole is coming from.We see them use lb's in the dungeon. We know they have a facility capable of training them in that field. Also yes, logic is good. When you build a story around specific pieces of lore, but then throw all that lore out of the window just because...rule of cool, its kind of a problem for a lot of people. I dont think its really a maybe if they'd believe her. As we saw, Emet has his duty. Whether he believes someone or not, he needs to investigate due to his duty of the star. However, he knows he was mind wiped. All Venat has to do is tell him what happened along with the events leading up to the mind wipe. People act like she was some random citizen. She was Azem, an ex convocation member. Also, they dealt with suffering. We see this throughout the side quests on Elpis and even in Pandaemonium. So not sure where that comes from either.Also i'd say they overcame it considering they survived and summoned Zodiark...

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Agreed, and it is sheer nonsense that they never faced despair. Even Venat does not phrase it thus - she states they were merely spared from it for some time. Her issue was that they wouldn't be able to overcome the specific despair of their entire star dying and race dying out - despair which most sundered would easily succumb to, at the expense of their soul this time, because there is no creation magic buffer for the despair to act on. They put all their faith in the main character and a few heroes to guide them out and end up facing nothing like the devastation of the ancient world. Venat does not explain why the strive to reclaim their former life is an issue, which is based on the reports from Meteion she essentially skim-listened to at best, and instead offers platitudes about despair, at a rather bad time if the cutscene is anything to go by, stylised though it may be. The sundered are as much beings of "pure aether" as the ancients; it is more that the latter are denser, but as you mention, they had workarounds.

It's also perplexing to me why according to some, Etheirys, being much denser in aether (and one can assume therefore at producing more of it over time) than the sundered shards in its unsundered form and endowed with a primal of darkness (=propensity to render aether more active), would not be able to generate the aether to fuel the journey to Ultima Thule, but oh well, and this is putting the side the possibility of utilising dynamis through a better constructed version of what Hermes had tried to do.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

On the latter point, Any given character can transform and die, but given the history of each individual scion I hardly find that the scions would just simply roll over in the face of despair. People only transformed in the face of despair. This narrative works well for less substantial characters, but for characters such as the scions? It's very anticlimactic

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Meteion just didn't know what buttons to push. Thancred has been riddled with guilt about Minfilia since he found out she died after the bloody banquet. Having her appear and question where was he, why didn't he protect her, etc. I think he would've collapsed on the spot because of all the Scions he's shown to be the least able to move on from the death of a loved one.

Urianger has deceived all the Scions twice and has had to beg forgiveness both times. Any sort of illusion that the Scions don't and never will trust him again could possibly make him succumb.

Have Wilred or any of the other causalities of the Crystal Braves show up for Alphinaud and condemn him. Likewise, Tesleen and anyone else Alisaie blames herself for not being able to save.

I got nothing for Y'shtola, does she even have an Achilles' heel? :P It would probably take the death of the WoL for G'raha. Estinien would be the least susceptible to despair having not only dealt with his own, but also Nidhogg's.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I almost get the impression that they didn't want such things interfering with the narrative they wanted to go with, and so just hope people look past it.

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This in a nutshell. It's why I found the writing particularly around Venat and the Ancients to be so contrived. The narrative doesn't play out in an organic way, too many elements feel forced to achieve a specific result.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I really dont get where this "Ancients couldnt manipulate dynamis" loophole is coming from. We see them use lb's in the dungeon.

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The justification for limit breaks being dynamis requires a rather generous interpretation of less than a line and a half of dialogue, dialogue that flies in the face of existing lore. Given your previous responses in this thread, you accepting that limit breaks are dynamis seems like quite the double standard.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except besides those lines of dialogue, everything else points otherwise. Why wouldn’t they be able to hone their dynamis skills? We know they were able to manipulate it as they use limit breaks in the dungeon.

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Limit breaks are not dynamis. Besides those lines of dialogue, everything else points otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

The justification for limit breaks being dynamis requires a rather generous interpretation of less than a line and a half of dialogue, dialogue that flies in the face of existing lore. Given your previous responses in this thread, you accepting that limit breaks are dynamis seems like quite the double standard.



Limit breaks are not dynamis. Besides those lines of dialogue, everything else points otherwise.

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Considering how Dynamis itself is described and how limit breaks are used, one can ascertain the two to be somewhat connected. It’s much less of a reach than it is to base an entire storyline off of one line of dialogue that has been done before. Double standards though, have been in this thread a lot, especially in regards to some peoples views on the ancients. But those don’t seem to get much of a reply i’ve noticed from some certain posters :P Irregardless though, theres much more proof pointing to this than there would be for the other matter at hand.Also, it doesnt change the fact they could still use the facility to hone their usage of dynamis, so its a moot point in the grand scheme of things. Lets not take things out of context hm?Besides i recall many many posters classifying lb's under dynamis, but now it somehow doesnt? Seems to me people are changing their opinions to fit their own narrative.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Seems to me people are changing their opinions to fit their own narrative.

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Well, if nothing else, you're at least right about that.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Doesn’t change the fact about Zodiark though, or Elidibus. I wouldn’t say Venat was always on our side technically either if we equate ourselves to original Azem, whom she had also essentially betrayed and sundered. It depends on the perspective, but even so, it’s strange that the devs themselves state what the stance is on these things but still play favorites it seems. I just wish there was equality for both sides and not favoritism heavily skewed to one side. Seems like it’s always the pretty feminine characters that get the sympathy and fanservice whereas the more demonic looking ones (zodiark) get the short end of the stick, hence my comment about their appearances.

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Again, we don't have any connection to Zodiark at all. And what I said applied to Elidibus. He was going to kill us until we stopped him.

Our relationship with Azem might be explored further in the future, but for now, we are not Azem. We may never know whatever Azem might think about Venat and it does not matter.

I mean, sure, you can point out the difference in their appearances in that way, but I'd say that's irrelevant to the story. If you care about that subject, then I would agree those biases certainly exist, mostly for marketing purposes, but I also don't think it's a bad thing myself if it has no implication on the story.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Still waiting for someone to explain to me what Yshtola did this expansion that was so substantial it warranted not killing her off. Anyone?

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Why would that be a factor in deciding whether to kill someone?

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Originally Posted by linayar

Our relationship with Azem might be explored further in the future, but for now, we are not Azem. We may never know whatever Azem might think about Venat and it does not matter.

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This is the part actually bugs me. Unless Azem shows up in the Pandemonium raid series what other reason should we meet him/her? With this arc ended, should we have any reason to deal with the unsundered?

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Originally Posted by Thaciscokidd

This is the part actually bugs me. Unless Azem shows up in the Pandemonium raid series what other reason should we meet him/her? With this arc ended, should we have any reason to deal with the unsundered?

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Well, not really. It is the end of that whole saga. Of course, they can always make more stories about them (though hopefully not involving more actual time travel).

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Originally Posted by linayar

Again, we don't have any connection to Zodiark at all. And what I said applied to Elidibus. He was going to kill us until we stopped him.

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It doesn’t matter about having a connection or not as i said before. It’s about them sticking to what they’ve said. They state that both are neither good nor evil, yet one is painted in a much better light and the other is disregarded entirely. Us having a connection doesn’t mean at the very least we can acknowledge what he did. Elidibus literally sacrificed himself for us and we can’t say anything about that? As for the latter comment, it would be a good side reason for it. Why keep a character around who is contributing nothing? At the very least have her go out in some style and importance.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It doesn’t matter about having a connection or not as i said before. It’s about them sticking to what they’ve said. They state that both are neither good nor evil, yet one is painted in a much better light and the other is disregarded entirely. Us having a connection doesn’t mean at the very least we can acknowledge what he did. Elidibus literally sacrificed himself for us and we can’t say anything about that?

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Both of them being "neither good nor evil" does not necessitate that their treatment should be equal.

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As for the latter comment, it would be a good side reason for it. Why keep a character around who is contributing nothing? At the very least have her go out in some style and importance.

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I'd say that's up to the writers and the writers alone. Death is not the only solution. The end of Endwalker, in fact, is one such solution with the entire Scions being "released" from needing to be in the story, but it leaves room for them to be added later if they want to.

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Originally Posted by Neotempest

There are a few things we can piece together. There were two things that could be done with the memory that was explained. 1 is that memories from locations fade away fairly quickly. 2 is to invade another persons soul to see memories. From what we can tell, the Ancients frown heavily upon invading another persons privacy. With Hermes former comrade deciding to die and Hermes never getting an answer for it, even when they were close, Hermes could of easily looked at anyones memories in their soul. Heck, Emet could of done that the moment you met. From the looks of it even if they have that power to do so, they refuse to look at memories in another soul for answers. For the way they take it, it could be considered as hard "R-ing" the individual if they do it forcefully or even willingly since anything could be seen.

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Or, she could have use her own memory if it's all about privacy. Beside the echo ting, they could also ask around Elpis. The researchers there aren't memory wiped, they have seen Emet, Hytlodaeus, and Venat accompanied by "azem's familiar", which serves as proof that Venat isn't lying. Heck, even one of them personally saw meteion and her sisters too, taking off to the sky. After that two facts, I doubt it's hard to convince Emet and Hytlo about the truth of Final Days. Might even able to convince Elidibus too, as he will be the key figures for Zodiark summoning.

She can easily let three trustworthy convocation members (emet, azem, elidibus) and chief of Bureau of the Architect to know about dynamis, meteion, and final days; but nooo because it would make no sense of the time loop we can't have that.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Agreed, and it is sheer nonsense that they never faced despair. Even Venat does not phrase it thus - she states they were merely spared from it for some time. Her issue was that they wouldn't be able to overcome the specific despair of their entire star dying and race dying out - despair which most sundered would easily succumb to, at the expense of their soul this time, because there is no creation magic buffer for the despair to act on. They put all their faith in the main character and a few heroes to guide them out and end up facing nothing like the devastation of the ancient world.

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This right here is my problem with the narrative too. The sundered world was being hit by just a fraction of the true Final Days, and yet people already despaired so much they keep spawning blasphemies. They need the WoL and scions to bail them from that situation time and time again, yet Venat act like everybody in etheryis are able to overcome their despair so much so they have a fighting chance. They're not. It always ended up with the WoL taking on everything. Like, how different it would be if the WoL doesn't exist? Oh... right, they go back in the past to create alternate timeline because they need the WoL to save them again XD

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Originally Posted by linayar

Both of them being "neither good nor evil" does not necessitate that their treatment should be equal.

I'd say that's up to the writers and the writers alone. Death is not the only solution. The end of Endwalker, in fact, is one such solution with the entire Scions being "released" from needing to be in the story, but it leaves room for them to be added later if they want to.

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Death may not be the only solution, but clearly keeping them alive is adding more problems. Considering the whole ultima thule plot point completely contradicts the theme of the expansion. I’ve stated it many times but it’s true and it’s just not right lol. Also, it’s arguable for your former point. Considering there’s always been some bias towards Hydaelyn, it would’ve been nice for once for there to be equality. Especially since they want to say time and time again not to judge a book by its cover. I’m still waiting for us to get some minions of the antagonists at any rate. Where’s our Emet,Hythlo,Zodiark,Elidibus minions hm? Seems there’s even some bias in regards to that. Venat gets hers for genociding the world, we should get some for the ascians then.

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Originally Posted by Shinimas

Venat not doing anything is a giant plothole. Just tell them... they would believe it. Then get all the gang together, build an Imperium-like spaceship (Ancients should've been able to pull it off), follow the GPS tracker from Venat and Exterminatus the hell out of Ultima Thule before Meteion had the time to prepare.

Also, you really want to tell me that a giant memory wiping device didn't record what and whom it operated on?

But I get it. We anime. So emotion, much tears. I just hope further stories will be a bit more logical, because this stuff falls apart the moment you activate your brain.

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I think Venat explained to our character why she cannot tell the other ascians about the memory wipe and Meteion. First was that it will also make Hermes remember and act against them again. Second is the fear of unintended consequence wherein changing the past might pave the way for a worse outcome than had already come out. All she can do was to make sure that our character gets to be the WoL and prepare events and tools that our character would need to have a fighting chance against Meteion.

I rather like Venat's character despite being a short lived character in the game. Her becoming emotional as Hydaelyn with those tears after we passed her test of strength was very nice :)

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Death may not be the only solution, but clearly keeping them alive is adding more problems. Considering the whole ultima thule plot point completely contradicts the theme of the expansion. I’ve stated it many times but it’s true and it’s just not right lol. Also, it’s arguable for your former point. Considering there’s always been some bias towards Hydaelyn, it would’ve been nice for once for there to be equality. Especially since they want to say time and time again not to judge a book by its cover. I’m still waiting for us to get some minions of the antagonists at any rate. Where’s our Emet,Hythlo,Zodiark,Elidibus minions hm? Seems there’s even some bias in regards to that. Venat gets hers for genociding the world, we should get some for the ascians then.

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Yup, especially since Emet and Hyth help secure victory at the end, and particularly since Zodiark is a major reason the world still exists some 12k years later. The WoL even apologises to Elidibus for what he had to do before the time travel. They were essentially made to play the part of villain for 12k years in the eyes of the sundered, all the while they were labouring to restore the world and their people, based on something she did with no real explanation that made sense to them. The writers have given them recognition in words, e.g. in various blurbs about them in cards and through ex dialogue from the Minstrel, but I'd like to see more.

I enjoyed the story, but if there was one thing I would change, I would have had the Final Days progress a little further. By the end of the campaign, only 2 zones (3 if you include Radz-at-Han) are in an Apocalypse state. I personally would have had several more zones (Including some pre-Endwalker zones) in Apocalypse mode to raise the stakes further and give more of a sense of urgency.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

It seems to be a recurring thing, so lets insert some plausible character deaths:

• Zenos in your body kills Alisaie and G'raha Tia before you can reach him.
  
  
• Alphinaud's dad dies when the trip to the Garlemald tower fails.
  
  
• Hydaelyn doesn't enchant your Azem stone. Urianger takes G'raha Tia's place, and Alphinaud takes on Meteion alone. You can summon everyone back for the finale but as you can't give them new bodies they'll fade away when the spell wears off. Every main Scion is dead.
  
  
• As Alisaie wasn't around to give Zenos a stern talking to he just slaughters his way through Sharlayan instead of making a deal. Krile, Tataru, basically every B character that was in Sharlayan at the time is killed by him to get to you.

I'll be honest, all of those would be far too much and I think the story would be worse for it. Doing one or two might be interesting if handled well, but I doubt it would majorly turn things around for people that didn't like Endwalkers story.

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*glares at that top one*
im going to have to say no - it would be too much

This thread makes me happy that at least some of us aren't gushing about how this is the bestest story ever because they cried during the cheap emotional manipulation scenes.

I cried despite knowing they'd come back.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

This thread makes me happy that at least some of us aren't gushing about how this is the bestest story ever because they cried during the cheap emotional manipulation scenes.

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Yeah…everyone is entitled to their opinion of course and tastes are subjective. But i’m shocked after how this game has always been lore heavy, so many people now are basically saying stop looking too deep into it, because at that point they know the overall story just…doesn’t make sense. It very much feels like they wrote the story this expansion where they’d just shove in as much fanservice and emotional manipulation as possible in hopes people wouldn’t care or acknowledge the absolutely massive plot holes it has. But in terms of a 10 year arc it just fell absolutely flat for me for so many reasons.

I don't think we've seen all of this story yet.

I feel Venat and Zodiark still have more story to tell.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Again, we don't have any connection to Zodiark at all. And what I said applied to Elidibus. He was going to kill us until we stopped him.

Our relationship with Azem might be explored further in the future, but for now, we are not Azem. We may never know whatever Azem might think about Venat and it does not matter.

I mean, sure, you can point out the difference in their appearances in that way, but I'd say that's irrelevant to the story. If you care about that subject, then I would agree those biases certainly exist, mostly for marketing purposes, but I also don't think it's a bad thing myself if it has no implication on the story.

Why would that be a factor in deciding whether to kill someone?

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We are Azem, cause Azem is a Title, that Emet-Selch gave the WoL during the Fight with Elidibus.

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Originally Posted by jwilliam87

I don't think we've seen all of this story yet.

I feel Venat and Zodiark still have more story to tell.

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Considering this is the conclusion of the Zodiark and Hydaelyn saga, sadly this most likely is all we’re getting for the arc. Endless unanswered questions.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

This thread makes me happy that at least some of us aren't gushing about how this is the bestest story ever because they cried during the cheap emotional manipulation scenes.

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Yet a huge portion of the playerbase loved the story. And please don't undermine peoples enjoyment of the story by calling them "cheap emotional manipulation" scenes. You can dislike it if you want, but don't rag on others for enjoying it.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Yet a huge portion of the playerbase loved the story. And please don't undermine peoples enjoyment of the story by calling them "cheap emotional manipulation" scenes. You can dislike it if you want, but don't rag on others for enjoying it.

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To be fair that’s literally what they are because nothing comes from them outside of some scenes in Garlemald and Thavnair. For the final portion had someone actually died then it wouldn’t actually be cheap. It would be real. But the constant death flags and fakeout deaths do make it seem very cheap. Also, just because a portion of the community enjoyed the story doesn’t mean there aren’t problems with it. Considering a lot of those people are the same ones who are saying don’t look too into it.

Only issue was Zenos but he was always corny and boring. They could have left him out compleyely. Everything else was on point.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

To be fair that’s literally what they are because nothing comes from them outside of some scenes in Garlemald and Thavnair. For the final portion had someone actually died then it wouldn’t actually be cheap. It would be real. But the constant death flags and fakeout deaths do make it seem very cheap. Also, just because a portion of the community enjoyed the story doesn’t mean there aren’t problems with it. Considering a lot of those people are the same ones who are saying don’t look too into it.

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Is the story completely perfect? Of course not. I really disliked everything about Zenos myself and rolled my eyes when he appeared at the end. Most stories rarely are, especially when they go on this long. But I've also learned to enjoy stories for the story telling itself. I try not to overanalzye things too far- don't get me wrong, analyzation of themes and plot is fine, but when people overdo it, they tend to stop enjoying things altogether. We had a friend who did that with every Marvel movie we went to. We knew there were issues with them at times, but we just went to enjoy the characters, the story and the action while he would constantly talk about the implausibility of certain things, or how it didn't make sense plotwise, or how it was too corny or how it wasn't like the comics. Eventually, we stopped inviting him to go with us because he sucked all the fun out of just enjoying a story for what it is.

And "A portion of the community" is a bit of an understatement. It's got a 94% use approval on metacritic and 91% critical approval. Most of the dislike actually seems to be concentrated on the forums here. I get that some people don't like it, but personally I'm glad all my Scion friends survived. I like happy endings. I like being drawn in by the characters and the emotions. Doesn't make my enjoyment of the game any less valid like some here seem to believe.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Is the story completely perfect? Of course not. I really disliked everything about Zenos myself and rolled my eyes when he appeared at the end. Most stories rarely are, especially when they go on this long. But I've also learned to enjoy stories for the story telling itself. I try not to overanalzye things too far- don't get me wrong, analyzation of themes and plot is fine, but when people overdo it, they tend to stop enjoying things altogether. We had a friend who did that with every Marvel movie we went to. We knew there were issues with them at times, but we just went to enjoy the characters, the story and the action while he would constantly talk about the implausibility of certain things, or how it didn't make sense plotwise, or how it was too corny or how it wasn't like the comics. Eventually, we stopped inviting him to go with us because he sucked all the fun out of just enjoying a story for what it is.

And "A portion of the community" is a bit of an understatement. It's got a 94% use approval on metacritic and 91% critical approval. Most of the dislike actually seems to be concentrated on the forums here. I get that some people don't like it, but personally I'm glad all my Scion friends survived. I like happy endings. I like being drawn in by the characters and the emotions. Doesn't make my enjoyment of the game any less valid like some here seem to believe.

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I don’t know how much metacritic reviews matter in the grand scheme of things. I personally don’t really look at anything if that measure because a lot of that stuff has a history of being rigged. I don’t think there’s any such thing as a perfect story, however i expected at least the same tier of story as shadowbringers had. This expansion however, for being a conclusion missed numerous marks. Even without hyper analyzing, just the simple thing like the scion plot in Ultima Thule completely contradicting the expansions theme threw me for a loop, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. The thing is as well, i’d like to just say eh, well sucks the story was bad at least i have other stuff but…i mean even content wise we kind of missed out on stuff between all the gear reusing and the missing dungeon set etc. It makes me wonder what all the delay and hype was for.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I don’t know how much metacritic reviews matter in the grand scheme of things.

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Literally not a single entertainment scoring system on the internet has any credibility.

Bought reviews...

Fanboys/Haters skewing reviews..

Scores based on things other than the quality of the media...

"Agendas"

etc...

I like happy endings, but I'm an Ancient fan and they most certainly did not end happily. They could have, which is the frustrating part. Time travel that results in saving the WoL's life? Fine. Time travel that results in saving the unsundered world? Not possible.

The writing needed to be tighter given the controversial elements of it. You have the two individuals responsible for all the genocides (and not just on Etheirys) being treated as good people in bad situations, ironic given the villainous treatment of the Ascians who only existed as a result of both Hermes and Venat. I don't see how anyone can claim the story has been "grey" given the stark contrast in how characters and their motivations have been addressed. Did it result in the sundering? = Good. Did it try to prevent or reverse the sundering? = Bad. The amount of carnage involved in either doesn't matter as everything is reduced to that.

Maybe the problem is that none of the Scions were sacrificed for ridiculous reasons, otherwise we might have some debates on why X had to die when the situation had alternatives. It's not nitpicking to point out that all of Venat's reasons for remaining silent don't hold up to surface level scrutiny since everything she says is contrary to information from quests we did just 1-2 hours prior. It reminded me of someone who'd already decided what they were going to do and was making excuses for it.

^ i do like happy ending too but i hate "clean" happy ending, like everyone is unscathed (yes the wol was like on the edge of his/her life but its all good), ship go back to sharlayan, everyone waving and smile...

like cmon... at least show some "prove" that you have gone brutal fight or something? you literally went to the edge of the world and you come back clean and sparkling? at least make the ship damaged like smoke come out and some part got destroyed or something, or one of the scion is bed ridden but in stable condition.

we have scene where venat literally got pummeled and bloody all over her face and you cant do something like that to one of the scion or to wol in the cutscene or something?

I'm pissed no one died. Yeah, "shock" deaths are cheap....but come on.

Thancred could have easily died (his story is over). Then I would like to see Jullus be worked in as his replacement. A Garlean on the team would be a nice addition.

I also dislike that Hydaelyn/Venat came out too "clean".

Also, can someone remind me why Zodiark was "bad" and why we needed Hydaelyn to start with?

What's with people's obsession on killing character? Is this western's culture or something? Why not just end them with a retirement instead of killing them??

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

What's with people's obsession on killing character? Is this western's culture or something? Why not just end them with a retirement instead of killing them??

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hollywood flick i guess? someone gotta take one for the team and go out with a bang lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

What's with people's obsession on killing character? Is this western's culture or something? Why not just end them with a retirement instead of killing them??

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Because you have to show that death is an actual potential outcome. Once that's taken off the table there are no real stakes to anything. Seriously, the second you realize the teary death conga line is going to end with them all coming back...the whole last part of the game falls flat "full of sound and fury...signifying nothing". It has nothing to do with stupid and condescending remarks about "Hollywood movies" and "western culture" or whatever nonsense.

It tends to be fanboys and weird shippers who never want characters to die.

EDIT: The endless fake deaths, and the complete lack of guts to kill any characters is making me care less and less about the story. I feel like everyone is walking around wearing god level plot armor. Squenix has completely lost their nerve in story telling. Introducing a character (like oh say a happy young couple and their baby) just so you can kill them off 5 minutes later is crap writing. I don't care about those characters. It's just a failed attempt at manipulation to avoid hurting a main characters.

it doesnt need to be death, a "retirement" is also fine too. we literally have scene where arenvald end up in wheelchair which make him "retire", and this is from a person with minor role in the whole story.

they should pull this off too to one of the scion, best candidate would be thancred or urianger for me

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Originally Posted by gumas

it doesnt need to be death, a "retirement" is also fine too. we literally have scene where arenvald end up in wheelchair which make him "retire", and this is from a person with minor role in the whole story.

they should pull this off too to one of the scion, best candidate would be thancred or urianger for me

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"Retiring" being the worst consequence would be laughably lame.

Lets turn the question around. Why are you all so adamant that no one should die? I mean specifics, like addressing my reason why you need occasional deaths.

What is the point of having main character dying?
Look at Papalymo. The man died, then what? You just don't hear about him until you "see him" in a dungeon at level 89. It's like none of the characters evolve through his death, there is pretty much no grieving, and it didn't impact the plot at all. It served pretty much nothing from a story telling perspective, aside from it being the trigger for Lyse revealing her true identity.
Moenbryda's death became "meaningful" 4 expansions later...
Haurchefant's death is wwaaaaaayyy overused in the story, as the devs seem to think that it is the event that impacted the WoL (and us) the most. (I didn't really care about Haurchefant personally)
Cool emotional death scene though. Same for Ysayle. Same for Emet. Or even Tsuyu.
etc.

Honestly, the only deaths that actually brought something meaningful to the story were Minfilia's (because of the impact it had on Thancred specifically) and Louisoix's (for the impact it had on the whole game).
Having minor characters die and impact the main characters moving forward is much better at this point from my perspective. (for example, kill Runar or Matoya to have some Shtola character development, because she really needs it at this point.)
I mean, I would be fine if any of the scions die at some point, I just don't think it would add much to the story. The only thing I could eventually see impacting the storytelling is if only one of the twins die. If any other character die, it would just be 5 minutes of mourning and then moving on.