New summoner is unacceptable

Was only a matter of time before Summoner was made as simple as most of the other jobs, I can't say I'm surprised.

Everything got hit with the simplification ray this expansion, when shadowbringers had already made most jobs mind-numbingly simple. It's appalling.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Toxic for disagreeing with you isn’t toxic. Just a fyi

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Nobody said it was. Toxic for being toxic. Common sense. Also nice contrapoints. Or lack thereof. Very engaging and productive types of discussions you are (not) having.

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Originally Posted by Riusvell

Your solution doesn't work for everyone, because out of all the jobs there were a grand total of two that I actually enjoyed.
Right now I'm just putting up with the mess of a job that this is until they hopefully fix the glaring design flaws so I'm not fighting against the one job I have been playing since I started.

It's also incredibly rude to tell people to "find another job" if some could only play one or maybe a second job that they actually liked.
I love myself some magic users but I loathe healing, but I disagree with Black Mage's favouritism not to mention how I have been treated in ARR and to an extend to this day due to the caster environment. Red Mage is absolutely not my thing and it just doesn't bring me any sort of enjoyment nor do I even enjoy it's magicks.

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This is just "me me me waa waa waa. Me as a vocal minority am displeased and that demands actionable results!"

Summoner isn't changing. This patch ADDRESSED the design flaws of Summoner; not created any. If you find the suggestion to change jobs rude, I suppose you would find the suggestion to find another game even ruder.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Was only a matter of time before Summoner was made as simple as most of the other jobs, I can't say I'm surprised.

Everything got hit with the simplification ray this expansion, when shadowbringers had already made most jobs mind-numbingly simple. It's appalling.

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It wasn't simplified, because it was never complex. It was consolidated. Streamlined. A job in FFXIV shouldn't be anything like a real job, where there are metrics on keystrokes that determine if you are succeeding. The game was too busy to be fully appreciated by the majority. This change would not have happened were it not for the majority of feedback requesting it. It wasn't some rogue dev that snuck it in because they are bad at rotations. ARR from the get-go has been a pandering experience, and so any changes made were due to overwhelming request.

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

Summoner isn't changing. This patch ADDRESSED the design flaws of Summoner; not created any. If you find the suggestion to change jobs rude, I suppose you would find the suggestion to find another game even ruder.

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Lmao what? You'd have to be either blind or deliberately obtuse to not see the design flaws that were created in the rework. Not to mention things that were "fixed" like ghosting are still a problem.

This change was a long time coming tbh. When things get streamlined, they tend to become more simple. The problem I feel is that too many are hung up on if something is "complex" when the complexity can be caused by something being clunky. Did the devs intend old smn to have to stutter step or stand still to not lose wyrmwaves because bahamut would worry more about being next to you than attacking even though he couldn't be hurt anyway? How about the fact that titan egi couldn't even do it's job anymore because the stuff added after it would make it fade away while we built even more of a aggro lead on it. How much did smn have only because acn had it? If it wasnt for being tied to acn I'd imagine smn would have never had dots outside of a smn putting them on.

I do like the new smn compared to the old one for sure, but i do feel that it does feel a bit empty. Like a WoW spec without any of the talent rows filled. Instead of giving us +potency traits dotted all over the place it would have been nice to have trait "choices". Something that lets me customize the class a bit. Keep the simple for those who enjoy it and let me add a bit more on top if I choose without needing to just pick another class altogether. As I'm sure other have pointed out it has a solid foundation to work with. Whether or not SE will do anything with is another thing entirely though.

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

Nobody said it was. Toxic for being toxic. Common sense. Also nice contrapoints. Or lack thereof. Very engaging and productive types of discussions you are (not) having.

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

This is just "me me me waa waa waa. Me as a vocal minority am displeased and that demands actionable results!"

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How does one lack so much self-awareness?

Summoner is fun. Rework is for the better. As for complexity, in ShB it was braindead already.

Maybe they can find some way for Aetherflow to actually mesh with the rest of the job's kit to add some decision making. It's still this random side-mechanic that adds nothing to the job really.

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Originally Posted by Panelo

You're already 90 and know how it plays?

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Yes, yes I do and I'm already bored of it. I feel like there's nothing more to it. Once you get the lvl86 trait, that's it. The job doesn't evolve anymore and trait doesn't really add much.

The job is just poorly designed

Could you share the macro you would use please?

So I had no issue with Summoner in it's old form. I came from World of Warcraft where I had played warlock for 17 years. So the playstyle was somewhat similar. So no issues here.


But I have not played this new style that is currently out now. Not sure if I will now that I am hooked in on Reaper job. I will try and put some time in on it to give my opinion of it. I am hoping that all the negative comments posted here about it are just "The sky is falling" garbage. But we will see.

Why would you want to mess up?

I've gotten to 86 level. Played with the the new abilities and they are kinda nice. While they aren't massive game changers they do make the job feel a lot more dynamic because you go through the summons so fast each fight.

My big problem is that you have to be facing your target to cast the new summons. I really hope they remove that requirement. Maybe even move them off the GCD. Casting the new summons just feels stilted.

The other part that really bothers me is the AOE the new summons cast after they spawn. It's the same jankiness we've always known. So frustrating to see Ifrit or Titan use their AoE to hit only one mob because of how the mobs lined up around the tank. I could try and reposition myself on the opposite side or right on top of the mobs to get better coverage but its just a pain. Garuda is fine. The others should work like her.

Also make carbunle do something. That poor little useless goof just stands around until I need a shield or a bit more dps. Make him auto attack or something.

I thought it was bugged when it wouldn't attack!

I honestly I don't mind simplistic rotations at all as long as the content I am doing the rotations for is challenging.

I for one really like new Summoner. Because Scholar is my main I’ve always had the option to play around as Summoner, but since day 1 of ARR it has not only not really felt like what I’d anticipate from a Summoner, but also was generally clunky. The rework presented a very clear and defined Summoner.

There is clear ground work to bring in new Summons, how this is going to be implemented is a mystery and I just hope that other Summons will contribute unique Astral Flow/Gemshine/Precious Brilliance patterens. It seemed that the Magus Sisters were hinted at possible summons since their color scheme matches Emerald, Topaz, Ruby. The rotation is elegant and simple and I feel a good burst window upon initially Summoning.

My small complaints are as follows:

Ruby magic *feels* weaker than I’d anticipate the payout feels unsynced to cast time.

Ruin IV feels like it’s just there sometimes to throw in.

Fester and Painflare feel lacking in interactivity. I would almost be willing to say give back a 3rd stack of Aetherflow for these spenders because 2 feels oddly lacking. But that doesn’t solve the problem of these abilities feeling bland in and of themselves.

There may yet be more room to grow but altogether I feel the job is on the right track, and if we want a mage thats all about DoT management, well now there’s room for that.

Been playing summoner since 2.0 what is that 8 years? idk

This has been an absolute joy to play. Its FUN! Unlike the last iteration that was 5.0 which was frustrating annoying and just unfun to play.

2.0 = boring
3.0 = okay, but compared to other casters and classes something was missing
4.0 = fun (but was punishing if you died, had no real catch up to get back into rotation due to aether flow)
5.0 = HATED, unfun, piano hands the class
6.0 = fun, an absolute joy to play, amazing! Favorite iteration of this job. (still some work needed for aether stacks as their purpose feels a little tacked on though)

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

I've gotten to 86 level. Played with the the new abilities and they are kinda nice. While they aren't massive game changers they do make the job feel a lot more dynamic because you go through the summons so fast each fight.

My big problem is that you have to be facing your target to cast the new summons. I really hope they remove that requirement. Maybe even move them off the GCD. Casting the new summons just feels stilted.

The other part that really bothers me is the AOE the new summons cast after they spawn. It's the same jankiness we've always known. So frustrating to see Ifrit or Titan use their AoE to hit only one mob because of how the mobs lined up around the tank. I could try and reposition myself on the opposite side or right on top of the mobs to get better coverage but its just a pain. Garuda is fine. The others should work like her.

Also make carbunle do something. That poor little useless goof just stands around until I need a shield or a bit more dps. Make him auto attack or something.

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You can manually place Carby in some fights to improve this issue. Ifrit's charge attack can also be done before Titan so at least only one is wasted.

It's added a bit of do-si-do to the job, like RDM and DNC both have.

My verdict is that the 86 trait was the bit that made the job feel more complete than it did at 80. Also having your hotbar arranged to make it as fluid as possible.

The job appears to be very strong DPS wise, too.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

I've gotten to 86 level. Played with the the new abilities and they are kinda nice. While they aren't massive game changers they do make the job feel a lot more dynamic because you go through the summons so fast each fight.

My big problem is that you have to be facing your target to cast the new summons. I really hope they remove that requirement. Maybe even move them off the GCD. Casting the new summons just feels stilted.

The other part that really bothers me is the AOE the new summons cast after they spawn. It's the same jankiness we've always known. So frustrating to see Ifrit or Titan use their AoE to hit only one mob because of how the mobs lined up around the tank. I could try and reposition myself on the opposite side or right on top of the mobs to get better coverage but its just a pain. Garuda is fine. The others should work like her.

Also make carbunle do something. That poor little useless goof just stands around until I need a shield or a bit more dps. Make him auto attack or something.

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I wish that I could have my Carbuncles still, don't get me wrong... it's okish at best to see the primals but I am honestly not very ok with it as they're just plain annoying. Hell, people confuse them for mechanics even! I don't blame them! We had this exact issue with Bahamut and Phoenix, that they got in the way. Why didn't we learn from this?
Maybe if they were actual demi's (As it would feel more impactful to see them longer, imho and of course size changed with commands.)it would have gone over better in my eyes.
My problem is that they're also GCD's and I legit have trouble justifying even trying to use ruin 3 at the moment barring those awkward few seconds before bahamut/phoenix and even then it's like... wow. There's really not much to press or do and it's really boring, even Dancer has more to do.

Also make Carbuncle fake fight or something, just give it something to do. Even minions show more life than our Carbuncle does now!

Like I'm level 90 now, I've fought a bit with it and it's honestly not getting better.
It's still not good and I still hold the same opinion as I did at 80, that it's simply an unfinished job that should've stayed in the cooker longer.

Ifrit is absolutely horrid to use outside of the gapcloser, legit the worst thing of the rework.
People say Garuda's slipstream is bad but I rather take that over a cast time that's so jank it doesn't allow you to queue up the next with relative ease. Like I seriously want to throw out the chili pepper and pretend it never exists as it just feels completely horrible and out of sync to use.
"B-but it's the point!" I would rather have it that it changed my own GCD cooldown with the extended cast time so that it at least doesn't feel as terrible as it does now. It works for Black Mage as you do more than two Fire IV's and can have a proc to continue using it without much issues, but it doesn't work for us.

So for everyone who says if you didn't like the job before then you didn't have to play it, follow your own advice. Really now people have been telling healers for years that they don't have to heal if they don't like it but now that it's a DPS job that is over simplified I guess it's a real problem.

Just found this post and seems just like a bunch of people whinning about how others people should not have fun with the class if they don't have fun with it.

Anything that upsets the status quo (read that as the elite) is probably a good thing, and good for the game. If they are complaining, you know that the dev team is doing a great job! The general census is that this thread is less about constructive feedback on the changes, and more "I'm not having fun, so you shouldn't be either! Harumph!"

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

Anything that upsets the status quo (read that as the elite) is probably a good thing, and good for the game. If they are complaining, you know that the dev team is doing a great job! The general census is that this thread is less about constructive feedback on the changes, and more "I'm not having fun, so you shouldn't be either! Harumph!"

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Nah, people are upset because some enjoy playstyles that have a bit of depth and a higher skill ceiling to work towards. But, SE keeps removing this depth and offering nothing in return. It was Machinist last expansion, and this expansion it's Summoner.

I'm enjoying summoner very much after the changes and look forward to the additions they will be adding to it in the future.

Hoooooolyyyyyy F, this thread is still going ? Time to put some cinder under it!

I really dislike the changes and you like them. Good to know both our stances so lets move on.

By the way

Dont leave your Lalas out after dark in Limsa, strange things happen in that place!

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Nah, people are upset because some enjoy playstyles that have a bit of depth and a higher skill ceiling to work towards. But, SE keeps removing this depth and offering nothing in return. It was Machinist last expansion, and this expansion it's Summoner.

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I like how they actually say no constructive feedback is being given while there's been plenty of it in the thread.

Been giving reasons to why it doesn't feel good or fun at some parts, why there's a disconnect and more. So yeah, there's actual feedback in the thread.

If you don't agree with such things, fine. But don't go drown people with feedback and legitimate concerns out because "I enjoy it" because it's honestly unnecessary.

The biggest thing that jumps out about this new version of SMN is that it feels like they didn't quite want to commit 100% to the new direction. Like, Painflare/Fester/Energy Drain should have just been removed, and replaced with the attunement charges. Adjust the attunement potencies a bit to account for the loss of the two OGCD hits. Since carby is now a thing again, they should also give him a stripped-down lower potency version of DWT very early on, so the removal of that mechanic in synced content is no longer a thing.

I ran about 5 dungeons over the last hour or two. It really is the GCD on the summons and facing requirement that makes them feel so poopy. Since the attacks are tied to the summon and not us when the button is pressed it feels like nothing happens, at least not right away. It takes a few seconds for the summon to appear and make its attack. All the while we're stuck doing nothing on a GCD. It's just carbunle and I staring at each other. Summoning should feel cooler than that. It should be BAM! BOOM! Something awesome happens. Maybe it will feel that way at 90 when our summons are full primals but the mechanics don't support it well.

Also, I'm getting used to Gemshine and Precious Brilliance being separate abilities from Outburst/Ruin. I was at first confused why they didn't just replace Outburst/Ruin like when Bahhamut/Phoenix are summoned. It's so you can manage the number of attunements you currently have. While not massively complicated it will be a rotation consideration. I can see the abilities definitely being useful during phase transitions or heavy movement parts of a fight.

Finally, holy jesus tap dancing monkey christ summoner is bad at level 50. Aethercharge doesn't make Outburst/Ruin instant cast like Bahamut/Phoenix do. Also, Outburst/Ruin have a ~1.5s cast time and a ~2.5 recast time. It feels so bad to use.

While I will concede its simplicity makes it feel unfinished, I still think it's a big step in the right direction. MCH's rework was something of a legendry feat and expecting SMN's rework to be the same was putting the bar a little too high.

Going forward I think SMN will get more flushed out and that this is just the start of an overall great transition for the job.

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Originally Posted by Limecat

The biggest thing that jumps out about this new version of SMN is that it feels like they didn't quite want to commit 100% to the new direction. Like, Painflare/Fester/Energy Drain should have just been removed, and replaced with the attunement charges. Adjust the attunement potencies a bit to account for the loss of the two OGCD hits. Since carby is now a thing again, they should also give him a stripped-down lower potency version of DWT very early on, so the removal of that mechanic in synced content is no longer a thing.

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If they remove ED and such they would have had to replace them with some other set of oGCD abilities. The rotation already feels a bit barren, if they just axed those and didn't replace them, it'd be even more apparent.

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Originally Posted by Lloyd777

Just found this post and seems just like a bunch of people whinning about how others people should not have fun with the class if they don't have fun with it.

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Imagine being egocentric to the point that someone saying they don't like something means, to you, that you aren't allowed to like something. Kinda hysterical if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Nah, people are upset because some enjoy playstyles that have a bit of depth and a higher skill ceiling to work towards. But, SE keeps removing this depth and offering nothing in return. It was Machinist last expansion, and this expansion it's Summoner.

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It wasn't skill. It was busy work. Stop confusing them. True juggling with more than 4 objects is a skill. Juggling a handful of buttons isn't skill. Being able to type over 70wpm is a good thing to be able to do, but it doesn't make you better at your IRL job (unless you're a transcriptionist). It just makes you a better typer. It would be weird to be weirdly prideful about typing skill, unless you were typing at double that speed, which an equivalent in this game doesn't exist. And typing speed is literally a direct analogy.

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Originally Posted by Melorie

Imagine being egocentric to the point that someone saying they don't like something means, to you, that you aren't allowed to like something. Kinda hysterical if you ask me.

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When the people complaining are advocating for reversion, that is exactly how those statements should be taken. Someone else made the best comment in the thread, which was to the effect that the people that dismissed naysayers of previous patches to summoner by saying they should try another job, should swallow their own medicine now.

I actually am loving it so far. It feels very powerful and you always have something to do, it never feels like you are waiting for a cooldown. And I am only level 71 so I don't even have Phoenix yet. I love being able to hit Garuda and just dump a whole bunch of damage during a movement phase

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Originally Posted by LMMotoss

I actually am loving it so far. It feels very powerful and you always have something to do, it never feels like you are waiting for a cooldown. And I am only level 71 so I don't even have Phoenix yet. I love being able to hit Garuda and just dump a whole bunch of damage during a movement phase

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We had Dreadwyrm trance for that reason :'[

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

When the people complaining are advocating for reversion, that is exactly how those statements should be taken.

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Not really, just because they liked certain aspects of the older version and would like them to be considered doesn't really mean that you aren't able to feel like the job is fun and disagree with them. That's what discussion is. So no one that enjoyed summoner before is able to give feedback, otherwise they're trying to ruin YOUR fun? You're playing with other people that have different tastes than you, and they are able to express them, this isn't a personal attack to yourself. This is the forum of the game, that's what this place is for.

And this goes for both sides.

If you can't handle that you play a game with a bunch of other people that might disagree with you to the point that you act like it's a personal attack to your preferences, either argument the reasons you feel these decisions are better or leave. Crying about how someone wants to destroy your fun is pathetic and dramatic. Acting like people that enjoy old summoner are some sort of enemies that should just suffer and be forever silenced is ridiculous. They're players just like you, they should be able to express what they feel. And you, as I said, disagree with them - but without being a petty drama queen while you're at it. This isn't the high school, ffs.

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

When the people complaining are advocating for reversion, that is exactly how those statements should be taken. Someone else made the best comment in the thread, which was to the effect that the people that dismissed naysayers of previous patches to summoner by saying they should try another job, should swallow their own medicine now.

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Maybe, but one version had 8 years of history and solid fan base who feel betrayed by this redesign. It would be like me to ask that a job I don't play be completely redesign to my whims, and to hell with the people that currently enjoy it. I think your argument would have held up better with 2.0 when all jobs were new and fresh, were nobody had in vested ties to it.

Also, acting like people that dislike the new version necessarily wants a copy and paste version of the old summoner or didn't recognize any flaws in the old version is such an extremist vision of the situation. There might be people that loved the new aesthetic changes, but disliked the lack of something else, or even enjoyed part of the new mechanics, but not all of them and so it goes. Acting like anyone that dislikes it is part of a beehive that wants to destroy what you enjoy is, again, egocentric, hysterical and childish even. I would refrain from even accessing forums for discussing anything if you're going to take things this way, it might be bad for your mental health honestly.

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Originally Posted by Melorie

Also, acting like people that dislike the new version necessarily wants a copy and paste version of the old summoner or didn't recognize any flaws in the old version is such an extremist vision of the situation. There might be people that loved the new aesthetic changes, but disliked the lack of something else, or even enjoyed part of the new mechanics, but not all of them and so it goes. Acting like anyone that dislikes it is part of a beehive that wants to destroy what you enjoy is, again, egocentric, hysterical and childish even. I would refrain from even accessing forums for discussing anything if you're going to take things this way, it might be bad for your mental health honestly.

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Hello, I'm one such person.
I'm mixed in regards to this but my general perception leans towards not good due to the problems I have listed. Always have I admitted flaws with the older iterations, because I hold the opinion... if you love something, you need to be willing to admit it's faults.

The excessive attempts at trying to drown out people's genuine concerns and feedback need to stop.