The Elemental Mastery trait definitely needs to be sooner in the levelups. I don't know how people are going to level this up without falling asleep at the wheel otherwise.
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12-10-2021, 07:43 AMRolder50
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12-10-2021, 11:48 AMrewdTake your time to read messages more carefully this time, before putting words in my mouth (or anyone else's), please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallus
This is what you said. If you think that one hardcast (before you will Swiftcast the other) and a melee GCD is a "lot of room of optimization" (or optimization, period...) then I can't even fathom how terribly hard to play BLM and RDM. Considering the latter was never considered hard to play (or even to optimize, although it does have interesting stuff), then there is something seriously wrong with your statement.Quote:
Some people calling this SMN braindead and not realizing there's actually quite a lot of room for optimization here. Ruby Ifrit is mostly the big offender in this rotation and the one that can mostly mess your flow, where you place him actually matters, a lot.
"SMN actually has a lot of optimization!" (<- that,somehow, only you were able to notice)
"That's just doing your rotation correctly, it's not optimization"
"Opinions. I like new SMN"
Cool, that's not the topic though (and not an adequate rebuttal), which is why I said no one cares about you liking or not liking the rework, because it has nothing to do with what we are saying. Go ahead and antagonize me, though, the lack of arguments was already clear. -
12-10-2021, 12:06 PMMaxilor
I like the new Summoner. I really really like it.
It's flashy, it's simple, it feels powerful and even has a Group DPS buff and a Resurrect you can use in a pinch.
I really enjoy this new Summoner.
But I don't think that old Summoner should have been sacrificed for it. I personally hated old SMN. I felt it was clunky and needlessly complex,
but a lot of people played and love it and I don't think that should have been taken away from them just to interest people like me.
The game already had a fun, flashy and simple caster job, it's called Red Mage and I main it as my DPS class already. -
12-10-2021, 12:26 PMRolder50Good, good. That side of the player base not liking something is pretty much the only way it'll get changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by zcrash970
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12-10-2021, 08:08 PMrewdDon't they complain about DRK too? Or Living Dead at the very least?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolder50
Don't get me wrong, that's nice to hear, but... -
12-10-2021, 08:53 PMSequora
Unless you’re paraphrasing, not being 100% sold on something doesn’t sound like they’re pissed lol.
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12-11-2021, 09:06 AMdinnertime
The level 86 trait should instead be available at 60 once you get Astral Flow, or at least a weaker version. Pre-level 86 it's a little boring because we have all of these instant casts from the elemental attunements of Gemshine and Precious Brilliance, with barely any ogcds to weave in-between.
It's weird because the rework makes sure the job doesn't play too differently at certain levels by doing skill mastery traits, but there's nothing for Astral Flow on the Egis so there's some discrepancy from 60 to 86.
Meanwhile Demi-Bahamut and Demi-Phoenix phases can feel pretty mundane with your only ogcds being Aetherflow spells. Right now the Aetherflow mechanic it's more of an oversight than it does blend nicely with the job's kit. Maybe instead they should utilize elemental attunement stacks for Gemshine and Precious Brilliance on the Demi-Bahamut and Demi-Phoenix phases, giving us ogcd stacks to weave with.
That or maybe tie Aetherflow in with Demi-Bahamut and Demi-Phoenix, giving us stacks every time we summon them to be used on that duration (bye Energy Drain and Energy Siphon) and give us 3 or 4 stacks to play with instead. -
12-11-2021, 09:52 AMMadoka
New SMN is extremely simple to play, extremely flashy, extremely powerful and extremely boring. I've said since ARR if they did a system like this to appease the "SMN needs big summons" crowd it would probably end up losing a lot of what made it fun to play and a standout class in the game. And it did. It's probably too simple since you essentially have all your buttons by 60 and just keep gaining new traits that modify them, with the most interesting one being at 86 since it gives you a few new things to do. That 86 trait could absolutely be placed earlier in the levels and just upgraded to current potencies at 86 to help new players not get bored as hell on it. 5 trances wasn't the answer but there's still some things they could do.
- Make each elemental trance more unique. They're all just aoe button, or single target button with bonus 86 gimmick. Even phoenix lost its combo. They could add one or two more abilities that are ogcd but eat the elemental charges to Garuda, and maybe give back ifrit's burn dot as another skill you could cast instead of 2 ruby ruins. Or add more titan-like combos that offer a weave for the weave starved ShB SMN players.
- Give arcanist a third job with old SMN abilities. lol
- Make the elemental phases actual trances where those summons come out and send follow up slaps and move their entry bursts to an enkindle. Make it a 90 cap thing
I'd need more time for more realistic ideas but as it stands if you want something easy to raid on SMN is pretty smoothbrain right now. The only fight diversity choice is figuring out if you use ifrit or garuda second for a fight, since you have to find the best time to stand still and cast ifrit's ruin inbetween all the instants. also feels like phoenix should have a damaging skill on rekindle. You actually lose dps per cycle after gaining FBT since you lose a deathflare to rekindle every minute. We already have everlasting flight on entry, so having another regen seems pointless at that moment and for solo play only being able to heal every 2 minutes isn't very useful. If they want us to have a heal available they could finally do something with physick.
I did not try to gather my thoughts before this post so it's kinda just a stream of words I was thinking but above all though, I would like a toggle to lessen the effects of Enkindle II. They cover mechanics too much in Extremes and I don't want to turn all of my skills off just to turn them off. I've mained SMN since ARR, that won't change and I'm used to it being completely different every expansion. This is just my least favorite version personally despite being functionally good. -
12-11-2021, 10:53 AMTulzschaYeh it's kinda strange, most of the job is packed with stuff to do but the big burst phases are pretty empty, those phases and the short periods of time after summoning a non-demi are the worst feeling parts of the job imo. It's also still weird to me how the big demi summons allow the use of the smaller summons. I see why it's that way it's just weird.Quote:
Demi-Bahamut and Demi-Phoenix phases can feel pretty mundane with your only ogcds being Aetherflow spells.
Idk the optimal rotation for SMN but I get the impression we want to hold Ruin 4 and Aetherflow so we get double of each with Bahamut every 2 mins. I get 6 gcds in Bahamut + the summon itself, it comes with 2 ogcds and with 4 Festers + Energy Drain that's 7 out of 14 ogcds used, so one per gcd, but that leaves Phoenix with its two + a single Energy Drain and that's it for ogcds. It wouldn't feel as bad if it still had its 1-2 rotation at least but spamming one button with nothing else to do or even think about, bleh. If at the very least the demis had more of a rotation than spamming one button it'd feel a lot better. -
12-11-2021, 11:39 AMdinnertime
That's another gripe I have with the rework. Demi-Bahamut and Demi-Phoenix are inconsistent.
Like people have mentioned, Demi-Phoenix is a DPS loss because it has a heal for its Astral Flow ability. Then you'd likely hold on 4 stacks of Fester during your Demi-Bahamut phase cause I assume that's the best time to utilize the party wide buff. Demi-Phoenix is basically left with nothing.
Then yeah the lack of ogcds. Back then you had two Enkindles, Energy Drain/Siphon, Fester/Painflare, Tri-Disaster, Bane for spreading DoTs. You had a lot to use. The least they can do now is give us two Enkindles again I guess. -
12-11-2021, 12:04 PMDyvidDon't forget the 1/2 combo that was removed as well ><Quote:
Originally Posted by dinnertime
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12-11-2021, 02:36 PMRochedalaix
Not a Summoner and never will be but I feel they dropped the ball on the class hard. Summoner should have easily been the most versatile and fun class to play as a hybrid. Instead of the creation of Scholar they should just have had the Summoners stats and spells change with the pet they Summon. So if they need to be healer they can Summon the Faerie, need a tank than Titan, Dots than Diablo or Ifrit. Buffs and support for party than Carbuncle.
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12-11-2021, 02:39 PMRolder501/2 combo is too complicated obviously, can't give summoners more then one button at a time!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyvid
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12-12-2021, 06:39 AMCithaerias_pyropina
Been leveling SMN from level 1 on an alt I made a week before early access. I'm level 56 now and it's been the most boring experience ever. Leveling RDM in tandem just so I don't die from SMN's boring boredom.
Takes 42 levels to get the AoE version of Energy Drain (learned at level 10). You learn Energy Siphon at level 52, wish it was level 30 like before.
Takes a whopping 48 levels to get the upgraded version of Outburst. Stuck spamming Outburst, and it's many clones, until halfway through Shadowbringers content, which I'm nowhere near. It's going to be fun still spamming Outburst even though I'll have learned Ruin 3, at level 54, and learned the elemental versions of Ruin 3 at level 72 long before Tri-disaster. Tri-Disaster is learned at level 74 btw.
Emerald Carbuncle functions as a single target attack until level 45 when it is then nerfed from a 400 potency single target attack to a 100 potency aoe in the form of Garuda until you get to 50 and get Enkindle then the potency is shot straight up to 600 with AoE falloff. Your single target dps takes a hit from levels 45 to 50.
Titan and Ifrit lose their AoE properties in all content pre-level 50 yet Garuda, albeit it's a hefty 300 potency loss in the single target department, gets to be an AoE earlier on although a really crappy one.
The SMN rotation does not change at all from levels 10 to 59 until you finally learn another cooldown at level 60, oh ye gods a cooldown! SMN has those?, and even then it barely changes your rotation as it's just 1 extra button to press every 60 seconds in tandem with Dreadwyrmcharge.
It will take another 10 levels for SMN to learn Enkindle Bahamut to change up the rotation but again it's still just 1 extra button to press every 60 seconds. (I don't count Ruin 4 as a remarkable change and even then it's still 1 extra button, yet again, every 60 seconds. I also don't count Searing Light either as almost every job has a buff like that now)
And SMN's rotation will not change for another 16 levels, as Phoenix is just a fire version of Bahamut but with a heal instead of Deathflare (yay...), until you finally finally learn the thing that will change SMN's rotation by a significant amount, Elemental Mastery.
You learn things that actually shake up SMN's Ruin/Outburst spam way too late that once I get this job to level 90 I will never take this butchered monstrosity into synced content. I'll just bring RDM into synced because at least that job functions and plays well and isn't absolutely gutted pre-60 or pre-86. -
12-12-2021, 07:42 AMGrimoire-MThe reason to take it into older content is just so you have to hardcast spells again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina
A better way to put it is Scholar has better buttons, better resource management, better pet mechanics, and better feedback from each action compared to Summoner.
Scholar is a better Summoner than Summoner. Scholar is a better Arcanist too.
Scholar, a one button rotation green DPS, is more engaging to play than Summoner. -
12-12-2021, 02:09 PMTulzschaThat was my dream, that SMN could have access to a bunch of summons with different niche purposes. Maybe not to the extent that they could fill other roles but ah well it's too complex an idea for this game regardless. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Rochedalaix
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12-12-2021, 09:44 PMArcaneCarbuncle
Gonna quote myself from another thread since I'm too lazy to type this out again.
Just to add to this: Kinda frustrated how many people seem to be fine with the issues other people point out just because they like the aesthetic more. A job can look pretty and play well at the same time, and I don't think most people that have complained want to go back to SHB SMN; they just want the new iteration to live up to its potential, and clearly for a lot of people the job isn't quite there.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle
I don't think it's unreasonable to like the job as is, but it's also not unreasonable to be disappointed and expect more, especially since Yoshida made a big deal about how much effort they supposedly spent on this...
(Also, I'd bet on SMN becoming one of the most boosted jobs if it remains as is) -
12-12-2021, 11:13 PMrewd
SMN just doesn't have an identity anymore. It is essentially the foolproof caster job for those who want to get into the role. You have a couple of casts so you can get used to them and then play the more serious and more rewarding Black Mage. You have a GCD in melee range so you can get accustomed to the hybrid nature of Red Mage and its peculiar tempo.
SMN just stands there: easy, boring, unsatisfying, unrewarding. An empty shell with pretty particle effects. Particle effects you want to tone down if you want to see anything on the battlefield, I might add.
What a pity to see your main job reduced to this. -
12-12-2021, 11:42 PMNiyuka
I think SMN just fills the role of the most newcomer friendly caster, with RDM being a step up, and BLM being the advanced magic DPS class.
You can see this pattern in other roles as well. SE seems to be horrified of the idea that players may be overwhelmed and scared away by the least amount of complexity and decision space, and tries to create these crowdpleasing jobs that just tell you the pattern of buttons to press to do well enough. Ask the Shb Dancers how that felt. -
12-13-2021, 02:27 AMArcaneCarbuncleQuote:
Originally Posted by rewd
To be fair, if the people already at cap are to be believed, it's gets somewhat more interesting around 86, but at that point the question becomes: Why does it take that long? It's not like the jobs beats you over the head with complexity. Which is fine in itself, but having to wait for the bits of complexity that are there just makes the Job feel stale.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niyuka
And why is it only that one ability anyway? Why was Aetherflow left hanging in that disconnected space instead of being adjusted to function like a low level Astral Flow, if not as an additional Primal Spell altogether. Not like the Job suffers from button bloat
Leaving the job to sit there and get stale from 22 to 86 is just objectively bad design.
It's like they wanted to rework it but we're afraid to put actual effort into it in case it gets badly received; and now most of the bad reception comes from players that feel like SE didn't even try. -
12-13-2021, 03:30 AMMadoka
It gets more interesting at 86 but that's because we get a third button. Most people complained about the previous filler Ruin phase in the ShB rotation, but currently that's all SMN is. We're using nothing but ruin or elemental ruin the whole time. Most of them are instant now but we lost the weaves that needed use to have instant casts in the first place.
So at 86 Ifrit gains the gap closer combo, 2 more gcds that don't use the existing 2 charges. Garuda gets the GCD slipstream, shadowflare with a big initial hit and doesn't consume a charge. Titan gets a chaser weave that actually feels interesting if only because you press it 4 whole times for the infusion and gives you something to weave with your instant casts. The 3 new GCDs in ifrit and garuda also happen to fill in the gap after all 3 infusions are done so that you only have 1-2 GCDs to fill in before Bahamut or Phoenix come back up, so you can cast a ruin 3, burn your ruin 4 and pop searing light. If you have enough sps searing will drift if you don't add in more filler ruins and I'm not sure what's better. I'll leave that to the math grinders.
Overall once a minute you summon 4 times, use Energy drain once, get 2 festers and otherwise cast ruin or infused ruin. or outburst and infused outburst. It's extremely simple and easy so anybody who doesn't main SMN but just wants to try it sometimes will probably love the shit out of it. They don't have to think about what to do or try too hard to learn and get rewarded for it, but anybody who enjoyed old versions of SMN will get bored very quickly and probably feel unengaged by it. I've already cleared the current extremes and the only active choice I've had to make is whether I do ifrit or Garuda first and the boss mechanics decide that for me and I've figured that out within 3 pulls. -
12-13-2021, 03:46 AMdinnertime
I can totally see the potential in the reworked SMN, but the problem is we don't know if they're going to add anything in the future because job design in general has mostly been basic things like adding ONE extra button to your rotation or upgrading skills.
Right now it definitely looks like an empty husk and there's plenty of room to add more depth to the job, especially with the amount of instant casts we have. Either we get more ogcds to play with, or get a new or improved mechanic to micro-manage.
Speaking of micro-manage, it's what made the job pretty fun for me in the first place. I feel accomplished managing my DoTs (which some of us don't miss), Aetherflow, pet skills, making sure my phases were timed right etc. back in Heavensward and Stormblood, then getting rewarded for it with high numbers. You don't really get that anymore because everything is just straightforward. -
12-13-2021, 04:19 AMRolder50
Even then, they usually only add extra buttons and things during expansions, which means we're stuck with what we have now for all of Endwalker.
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12-13-2021, 04:42 AMCithaerias_pyropinaThe bare minimum that they could do is split Elemental Mastery into 3 separate traits. You learn Titan's Astral Flow at level 66, Ifrit's at level 76 and Garuda's at level 86 or wherever they want to put them. At least then it wouldn't all be front loaded into level 86 when levels 60 to 80 is what really needs help. Lower the potencies of them and then at 86 increase the potencies, just do something.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle
It's like they reworked the job with only being level 90 in mind and gave no thought to the the job's leveling progression. -
12-13-2021, 07:37 AMremiff
My overall feeling with the summoner is that it looks like half a job, the concept itself is really the best, it lacks mechanics to make it really interesting to play,
total boredom below level 86, already I would like them to solve some problems since the carbuncles are no longer used for nothing,
made that the summoner can use his own shields and his team buff and not have a block during a summon
they should also make the buff usable out of combat .
he will probably not have a major change before 7.0 and that's a shame because the summoner deserves better, the job need to be buffed only for the single target dps, aoe is decent . -
12-13-2021, 07:59 AMJirahJudging by the insane amount of shallow praise and the fact the last reduction rework was followed up by zero changes, it’s safe to say SMN won’t change what so ever in 7.0 maybe a aoe or a gcd but nothing more.Quote:
Originally Posted by remiff
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12-14-2021, 10:08 AMGrimoire-MIt doesn’t get more interesting because it suffers from the same one-button issues. You already use Rekindle and Deathflare, the 86 trait isn’t much different from that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle
Honestly I would rather keep the ShB iteration because the pet improvements they implemented actually work well for a change and would be so much more satisfying knowing you could EA into Bahamut/Phoenix and have it actually work.
Ideally in the short term they would shove that iteration and this one together by making the Summons oGCD, giving back DoTs/Bane/Tri-Disaster, and adjusting Aetherflow and Ruin IV to fit. That would actually work for now. -
12-14-2021, 10:58 AMArcaneCarbuncleI'm not the biggest fan of this iteration either, but I'll have to disagree with this on principle, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimoire-M
I've never been a fan of having buttons for the sake of having buttons, and arguing that a set of skills is bad because they share a button, even though the skills have fairly different use cases, at best seems just as problematic to me as plugging ones ears ignoring any issues that are being pointed out because the jobs is pretty to look at. It's just feels like two extremes, neither of which help solve any issues, so I have no interest aligning with either.
And even if I agreed with you, being realistic I highly doubt they're going to change much going forward so I'd rather at least make sure the job gets its actual issues fixed instead of blindly suggesting they move back to gameplay style they clearly weren't willing to support anymore.
Maybe if enough people complain or SMN ends up dramatically underplayed they'll look into it by the next expansion, but I'm not going to hold my breath for this one.
I'd rather work with what we have and make it at least bearable for as big of a level range as possible, and in this case the biggest issue to me is that the whatever complexity the job has (wether people think ist enough or not), comes in way to late, so that's mainly what I want them to fix, anything else is just a bonus. -
12-14-2021, 11:17 AMNizzi
I've gotten the job to level 87 (mostly through Scholar), and I've played around with it a bit in a few of the EW dungeons and the first EW trial and I'm not sure I like how "on-the-rails" it is, especially before you get Elemental Mastery at level 86. That really feels like something that should be available way earlier, and that there should be more to manage this far into it. I didn't play enough of ShB SMN because I enjoy the aesthetic of Scholar more, so I can't speak of any expertise to there, but it doesn't feel like it will be a particularly rewarding job to play at level 90 and it seems like there's less going on, animations aside. In general I think it feels a lot more like Scholar than it did in ShB, which is weird because I had thought that they were trying to separate the two and yet Summoner now seems to have been brought in line with the 1 button spam of Scholar. Somehow, I don't think this is what people meant when they said that Scholar should be more in line with Arcanist again...
I don't necessarily think "Summoner should get it's DoTs back!" either but as it stands I also really don't see why they felt the need to remove them as a gameplay mechanic, because there's very little to manage on the job otherwise. SMN seems to me like they cut a bunch of stuff out too and then realized it'd look pretty bad having really barren bars at level 90, so they kept in things like Energy Siphon and Painflare instead of just rolling that into Energy Drain and Fester and giving them an AoE drop off like a lot of skills got this expac. Is there any reason for these to exist? There's certainly no reason SMN should have Physick anymore, it's absolutely worthless. I'm not sure why they felt like that was a button worth saving too when you get absolutely no use out of it. If SCH is still losing stuff from ACN when it turns level 30, I don't see any issue with SMN losing one of the vestigal aspects of SCH still left in it's kit when it reaches level 30. SCH's version of Physick is even a different skill! Why is this still in the game?!
Probably just my general uneducated opinion as I'm not done with EW and haven't been able to take it into any level 90 EXs yet, so I don't think there's much to regard with my post but just that I was kind of hoping there would be more thought in the general gameplay from one of the two jobs that uses a book as a weapon. I'm not a fan of "It's a solid framework to move forward in the future with" defense as well because we're level 90, you shouldn't be getting a "solid framework" that late, this should be a full, feature complete job that you can spend the next two years playing with full satisfaction, and not thinking "well hopefully 7.0 fleshes it out more." -
12-14-2021, 03:33 PMdinnertime
At this point I'll even take DoTs back on SMN to add an extra layer to the gameplay again but I know they don't want DoTs anymore, even on Bard.
I understand why they removed DoTs because a lot of people complained that the aesthetic of it doesn't belong in Summoner but honestly they could've gotten away with making them Primal-themed to please the "FFXIV Summoner is not a real Summoner" crowd, or kept it in the rework now that we have the big, flashy and powerful summons, you'll barely notice you have DoTs. I mean, Summoner stopped being a DoT-based job in Shadowbringers anyway.
In a technical sense I liked having DoTs. It was pretty satisfying to see mobs melt away while the tank rushes to the next pull. Aesthetically though, Bio and Miasma didn't belong on Summoner.
Next best thing though? Add a second button for an Astral Flow 2nd skill. -
12-14-2021, 04:38 PMChazNatlo
Hmm... I haven't gotten SMN above 80 yet, but how much would it shake things up if they had given us weaker versions of the elemental mastery abilities along with Enkindle, like no follow up for Ifrit's gap closer, shorter duration on Garuda's damage zone, and longer cooldown on Titan's clap, so you're weaving every other GCD rather than all of them (assuming you weave all of them (looks at my SMN level)). Let 86 enhance them, but not lock the true playstyle behind Endwalker levels.
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12-14-2021, 11:48 PMThanick
I'm super happy with Summoner. I hit 87 last night and am having a blast playing it. Feels like what I've wanted summoner to be since I started playing back in ARR.
If anything... I'd add more summons. Let me call Odin, or Alexander, or you know just more summons. Give us infusion effects off of the rest of them... Like Shiva does Ice based abilities, maybe her Astral Flow puts heavy on a mob.
I really hope by the time 7.0 rolls around we get more summons. -
12-14-2021, 11:52 PMReflear
I'm really enjoing the new SMN at the moment even if it is clear that it need some adjustment.
The really thing that annoies me are some QoL and visual adjustement:
Ruby/Topaz/Emerald Ruin III and Outburst: Please change the icon. Have the icon shared with the normal Ruin III and Outburst really confuse me.
Summon Ifrit/Titan/Garuda II: Why the icon have the primal Ifrit in it when Titan and Garuda have the Egi form?
Bahamut and Phoenix: I know this is a small thing but alot of ability of this two demi-summons have the same icon but with some color change. It could be better to have some distinct change for the better. -
12-15-2021, 05:11 AMVibronix
The only change I want them to make to the new summoner is to slow it down, and have en kindle bahamut and death flare, as well as rekindle and en kindle Phoenix to share recast timers, even if for just 2.5 seconds (this is a me issue though, not the job itself) .
The most satisfying abilities to me are the cast time ones (Slipstream and Ifrits cast times), but otherwise none of your abilities are cast times. I appreciate what they did with the trances, but since all the regular summons give instant abilities of some kind, I wish Bahamut and Phoenix also had some kind of cast time abilities on the gemshine buttons, to make you have a choice between standing and casting, or moving and casting a weaker spell like we used to with ruin 2 -
12-15-2021, 06:18 AMAtamisI would say Ifrit should be instant across the board. The charge with melee attack off global, then Ruby 1 and 2 should be different melee range abilities that combo off each other. They can still do AoE, since Ifrit's melee attack cleaved afterall, but I think it should basically just be a melee mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vibronix
Garuda could use some cast times. I feel like they just took Blue Mage Ravana spell and turned it into the Summoner Emerald spells.
Titan feels good to me as is with the follow-up topaz 3 button clapping them cheeks.
Phoenix should still use Fountain and Brand in a 1-2 combo with Revelation coming back up after combo strike to offset Rekindle taking up the other attack.
Bahamut could use a cast time on Astrals. I would rather Deathflare and Ahk Mourn stay off global simply because having that huge spike after summoning him feels great.
They could probably reuse the dreadwyrm trance animation as the cast animation as well. -
12-15-2021, 10:31 AMjrollins89
Random musing from a semi-casual:
-Did they forget that PVP exists? It is an absolutely different job, half consisting of the things that were removed from SMN and half consisting of stuff that was never there in the first place. None of it involves Summoning, not even a Carbuncle.
-Why not make Radiant Aegis AOE? It checks out thematically (Carbuncle has traditionally been all about full-party defensive buffs in previous games) and might add just a tiny bit more depth to job, or at least one more thing to pay attention to.
-Speaking of thematics... If RDMs are still going to steal all my comms anyways, can we at least look cool while playing Res Mage? Phoenix has traditionally been all about a full-party Raise in previous games, so why not buff our ability to Resurrect while in Firebird Trance? Maybe an AOE Res would be a bit much, but how about instant cast Resurrections while Phoenix is in play (so that I can focus on using Swiftcast for Ifrit cast rather than hoarding it for chain Res scenarios)?
-As others have said before, 86 is WAAAAY too long to gatekeep such an integral part of the Summoner kit. Duty Roulettes / sub-86 content feels awful as SMN. I get that there needs to be something new and shiny to dangle for SMNs in Endwalker but I feel the actual Primal summons at level 90 already accomplish this (and so would lv88 Enhanced Radiant Aegis if it were an AOE party buff! Just sayin). I just could not imagine having to level a fresh SMN level 30-86 without Elemental Mastery. Those levels 80-86 was already bad enough, but I think it's the new players that will suffer the most.
Overall though, I'm happy with what they've done with the job. I know that there was a following that loved playing pre-reworked Summoner, and I'm sorry for them. But personally for me, it was absolutely miserable and this rework is leaps and bounds better. -
12-15-2021, 11:28 AMRolder50
As an aside, early data from the Extreme trials show Summoner doing considerably less damage then RDM and BLM. Paying that Phys Ranged tax without filling a phys ranged party role, surely this will end well.
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12-15-2021, 03:34 PMRika007I mean... the job is basically as mobile as any ranged class now. And it provides a solid level of utility as well. If any job was to be hit with the ranged tax, SMN would get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolder50
Leaving alone that the ranged tax is absolutely stupid. With the amount of mobility that all 3 casters now have, the lowered amount of positional for melees and even more QoL to melee uptime and the tools they have to keep it, the ranged tax should barely exist, if at the most only a small amount. -
12-16-2021, 03:51 AMSequora
I actually wonder what people would have thought, had this been the original job minus the demi summons in 2.0 or even the 3.0 rework. I feel like the overall concensus for black mage and red mage, is that they were both very solid jobs upon their releases.
That being said, 2.0 black mage was very simple. Cast thunder 2 > Fire 3 > fire until low on MP > flare> convert >flare> transpose> blizzard III. There were firestarter and thundercloud procs thrown in.
Red mage simiarly had an even simpler rotation during its implementation in 4.0. Hardcast verthunder/veraero/jolt II > Dualcast the other. Repeat building up mana and using verfire/verstone when possible and weaving in fleche and contra sixte on CD. Then move into melee combo.
6.0 summoner has a rotation similar to this. I think the biggest differences are that summoner has recieved a lot of button consolodation as part of the rework so we're physically pressing the same button. The other "problem" is that we really don't have a resource to manage at this point. Aetherflow really isn't a resource anymore, and it really comes down to just spending all of your charges before you summon your next demi. Red mage has their mana, and their procs, and black mage is like a pendulum.
I like the change overall, but I wish we could get a little more depth before 7.0. -
12-16-2021, 08:05 AMremiffit's wrong,Quote:
Originally Posted by Rika007
he is even less flexible than the shadowbringer summoner in the sense that his rotation is rigid, and he still has 3 casts of about 3s, if his casts fall at the wrong timing in a fight, it is a big loss of dps, a ranged dps will necessarily have 100% uptime, this is not the case for the summoner.
the shadowbringer summoner was more mobile with the ''4'' ruin IV stacks, and ultimately the ruin 2, the current summoner has no equivalent in case of inability to cast, if we are on ifrit or on the slipstream of garuda.
and egi assault which were also kinds of good mobility.
given the contribution that the red mage has to the raid unlike what the summoner brings who has a more personal kit for his own survival, it is not normal that the summoner is 500-700 dps below that of the red mage,
in this case, the mobility tax is a bad idea, knowing that the red mage is rather mobile too.