Legitimate reasons why many of you do NOT like Gear Swapping

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Originally Posted by illriginalized

By your logic... then there's no need for stats. Might as well put in a petition to abolish stats as they are just useless information that no one wants to bother with. :rolleyes:

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Yes, that is totally my point. The fact that I've said any number of times that skills and preparation are what players should rise and fall on instead of relying on cheap tricks like gear macros during battle is entirely irrelevant to the fact that you want to be sarcastic.

So yeah, let's totally abolish stats because I never said anything like that! (Do eet!)

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

I know your being sarcastic, but tbh most stats require almost absurd numbers to yield decent returns (IE: needing +30 Crit. Rate to increase your actual Crit. rate by 1%.) The fact so much of a stat is needed to be noticeable, is probably how naked Ifrit/Mog runs are even doable to begin with, since gear is supplementing native stats. Along with the very limited capability to obtain/stack some stats in this game it really makes it difficult to determine if swapping gear is even worth the effort to begin with. At least at this point in the game.

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Ya I'm aware of the naked Ifrit runs.. and I agree the current algorithm / equations (if you will) of the stats are actually quite pathetic.. And by no means do I mean to have this option available now.. there's far too many issues that SE needs to resolve long before they start giving us perks.

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Originally Posted by illriginalized

Wat?

I guess you don't do so well in statistics nor any sciences, eh?

That's fine.

You're telling me that gear swapping would only have the benefit of having a slight higher DPS than someone else. This is illogical... Parsing is primarily to find the numbers in YOUR own character and job/class. And DPS is just a small fraction of what I care about.

Parsing opens the door to understanding how stats work at what point/situation, against what mobs, gear or better yet stat swapping is supplemented for a better output.

As I've said before, SE would be wasting data if they came out with haste gear. Especially if it's gear that is not meldable.

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There is a significant difference between parsing to figure out gear effectiveness and allowing for mid-battle gear swapping. The former is quite possible in the current system, and in fact, I'd love if SE would introduce a native one so that people who choose to partake in the meta-game can do so easily.

That being said, parsing is so much more relevant and thought-provoking and challenging if it requires you to actually make choices with your gear instead of just isolating a perfect point for each action and then gear-swapping as needed.

Parsing to find out that the best nuke damage is achieved through a combination of X INT and Y MAB with Z Macc is a straight-forward exercise in data gathering. Painful at times? Sure, but still straight-forward. If you allow gear-swapping, then once this data is collected, the challenge ends; you buy the right gear to fit the model, or quest for it or whatever. Then you swap it in at the precise moment you need it at, and all of the thought goes out of the equation. This is what we would call a trivial challenge.

If, however, you have to analyze an entire fight, and determine what setup works best in conjunction with the people around you, for a specific, fixed set of equipment? That is a challenging problem. It's likely a problem that we can't even solve in full generality, but we can perhaps guide ourselves to better results. That is something you can sink your teeth into for years.

If you're wanting mid-battle gear changes, you're not really after a challenge, you're after the warm fuzzy feeling that most of us get when we see something executed perfectly. So don't go around trying to make your argument by insulting the intelligence of others.

I don't like gear swap because:

1. There isn't a seamless, transparent solution in terms of user interface design. Macros and /wait commands are awful.
2. There isn't a simple solution to alleviate inventory congestion. If you allow for gear sets and swaps, you must also accommodate to every ability of every class, of every job since it is possible to achieve 50 in everything.

This is simply how I feel. I feel perfectly content with skill outweighing the impact of gear stats thus stressing on people playing better rather than blinking like a Christmas light show. If it changes, I'll adapt, I just hope from an interface/inventory perspective it's done right.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

If, however, you have to analyze an entire fight, and determine what setup works best in conjunction with the people around you, for a specific, fixed set of equipment? That is a challenging problem. It's likely a problem that we can't even solve in full generality, but we can perhaps guide ourselves to better results. That is something you can sink your teeth into for years.

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Exactly!

In answer to the question: What if fights are too complex for one obvious set of gear, this quote would be the answer. Confused? Fine. I'll explain.

There was a time when gear was a very personal choice. Lately, and I'm not sure *when* this happened chronologically, gear has become a standard, as in there's only one valid piece of gear for a certain function. WoW is obviously the most popular sinner of all in regards to this, but I doubt it really started with WoW. Then again it might have, who knows. The point is that gear is not something that should be standardized, but personalized. Rather than a vertical progression (WoW formula), there should be more lateral progression (other games). Having more choices means that you customize a set of gear to deal with as many variables as is feasible.

This is where true challenge comes in, as was said above. With all the options, and all the variables, how do you make an effective piece of gear? As a tank you have:

1) Block rate
2) Def
3) Hp
4) Enmity
5) etc etc

Damage mitigation? Pure hp survivability? A combination of the two? What are healers most able to handle? What are your primary concerns during that battle/dungeon? If its a high mp-pressure fight, damage mitigation is your best option. But if some attacks are unblockable, you need hp for insurance. But then again enmity could be a problem if you are burning mp, so you might say screw damage mitigation and just count on your healers to keep up while you stack enmity/hp. Who knows....there is no "optimal" way, only effective ways. Largely depends on group and playstyle.

Gear Swap takes away all of this. No need for it at all, and it is antithetical to everything a player used to stand for before easymode and standardization became the norm.

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Originally Posted by illriginalized

Word. With SE, take their words with a grain of salt. Hell it's beyond that, I don't even like to read about upcoming patch notes because:

A. They come late

B. Something always breaks

Their track record proves repeatedly that nothing is written in stone.

roflmao

lol you're pathetic. Your assumptions fail. I've said it before.. I'm humble. I don't give a flying mofo if you don't gear swap. It's all about me putting out DPS and surviving AND being a team player and making it easier on my healers by ME not being some sort of MP drain.. the best way to hit that head on, is having varying stats on the fly by MY command during any battle.

You don't want to gear swap? Cool.. I don't care. You have the best of the best armor all HQ armor at that? Cool... I don't care.

So don't confuse me with those people.. I'm competitive with myself, not with other people in FFXIV nor was I ever in FFXI. Now if PvP existed... you can cry all you want about gear swapping. Gear or just stat swapping in general is beneficial for all players against enemies.

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LOL, calling someone casual when you don't have the faintest idea of what parsing can provide you with. Parsing is not only for competing with yourself, unless you are one of the best players out there already and know that what you have been doing is flawless, there's always more to learn from other people's parses. Parsing can help you understand why someone is outdpsing you not just because of gear difference. Parsing can tell you about rotation, damage distribution of skills, and a whole lot more.

Also, you started your thread by arguing that gear swapping is common in RPGs, many people have come and asked you how come the it's not common in the RPGs they've played, yet you never answered their questions. If you want a legitimate reason for why people do not want gear swapping, you should at least give a legitimate reason for wanting gear swapping, since your initial reasons aren't legitimate at all.

You say that gear swapping is "beneficial for SE". In what way? I didn't know that you run or own SE, how can you tell that one mechanism from one of their games is beneficial for the entire company or not?

You say gear swapping is "beneficial for the world's economy". I imagine what you mean by this is that low level gear will still be in demand for high levels due to its unique stats. I argue the opposite, the way gear swapping create low level gear demand is extremely unfriendly for starters, and that will be a terrible way to "help" the economy. You will have people at high level quitting through time, yet the game is unable to recruit more new blood to fill up the economy, just how exactly is this beneficial?

What would be beneficial for the game's economy will be allowing a system where you can take risks and combine two lower level materias for a chance at getting a higher level one. This way you create a system that effectively removes low level or unwanted gear from the system. This way the low level gear market/pricing stays relatively friendly for starters, while you don't end up with a massive overstock of low level gears, and since low level gear materialize faster, it's also an efficient way to gamble for higher level materia in the long run.

At last, you say that gear swapping is "beneficial to the game play". just exactly who's opinions are you basing this on? I sure hope it's not your own, because that's called bias. Obviously plenty of people here in this thread already argued that it isn't "beneficial" to their game play. This argument is simply a matter of preference, so your opinion of gear swapping being more beneficial to the game play isn't any more valid than another John Doe's opinion of gear swapping isn't more beneficial to the game play.

So please, do enlighten me on your "legitimate" reasons for why gear swapping is necessary for this game.

I don't think humble is the correct word. Responses have been anything, but humble.

I dont mind if others want and will use gear swapping, just dont try to force it on me. Its just an extra hassle to worry about and gear macros fire off so slowly anyway it wouldnt work well.

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Originally Posted by KyrsIsley

LOL, calling someone casual when you don't have the faintest idea of what parsing can provide you with. Parsing is not only for competing with yourself, unless you are one of the best players out there already and know that what you have been doing is flawless, there's always more to learn from other people's parses. Parsing can help you understand why someone is outdpsing you not just because of gear difference. Parsing can tell you about rotation, damage distribution of skills, and a whole lot more.

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Preaching to the choir

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Also, you started your thread by arguing that gear swapping is common in RPGs, many people have come and asked you how come the it's not common in the RPGs they've played, yet you never answered their questions. If you want a legitimate reason for why people do not want gear swapping, you should at least give a legitimate reason for wanting gear swapping, since your initial reasons aren't legitimate at all.

You say that gear swapping is "beneficial for SE". In what way? I didn't know that you run or own SE, how can you tell that one mechanism from one of their games is beneficial for the entire company or not?

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A simple short answer: Time = money.

A long answer: Takes time to gain gil and or materials to craft equipment and utilize em. After long intensive data analyzing. Thus a player spending more time in the game just to obtain gear makes SE happy. The gaming industry or just money making industries in general would agree.

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You say gear swapping is "beneficial for the world's economy". I imagine what you mean by this is that low level gear will still be in demand for high levels due to its unique stats. I argue the opposite, the way gear swapping create low level gear demand is extremely unfriendly for starters, and that will be a terrible way to "help" the economy. You will have people at high level quitting through time, yet the game is unable to recruit more new blood to fill up the economy, just how exactly is this beneficial?

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More gil put into the markets, more materials for crafting going into the market, more equipment in the markets... having the same gear for everything is not better than having multiple gears for different situations.

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At last, you say that gear swapping is "beneficial to the game play". just exactly who's opinions are you basing this on? I sure hope it's not your own, because that's called bias. Obviously plenty of people here in this thread already argued that it isn't "beneficial" to their game play. This argument is simply a matter of preference, so your opinion of gear swapping being more beneficial to the game play isn't any more valid than another John Doe's opinion of gear swapping isn't more beneficial to the game play.

So please, do enlighten me on your "legitimate" reasons for why gear swapping is necessary for this game.

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Utilizing different stats on the fly gives the game more dynamics imo. Makes the players for efficient for different situations.

Sorry this is so hard for you to wrap your head around. =\

Edit: It appears that people just want more of a simpler game. They don't want to deal with the science / mechanics of the game.. they just want to play it.

This is to the point now where I cannot figure out if Ill is just trolling or just stupid.

OP Request: Show me legitimate reasons!

Valid Response #1.
Ill: "NU UH!!"
Valid Response #2.
Ill: "NU UH!!!!"
Valid Response #3, #4, #5
Ill: "NU UH while contradicting myself repeatedly!!!"

Having a conversation with someone who dismisses everything without any consideration is NOT having a conversation, its feeding a troll. To all the anti-swap people, you're gonna give yourselves aneurysms if you keep trying. Let's all be quiet and let him think he won. He speaks of science and mechanics like he wants to think, but he doesn't want to think. He wants game-shark, easy mode.

If gear swapping were possible, i would need at least 3x the inventory space i have right now.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

I love you Wynn, you bastard. Why did you leave me?!?!

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<3 Miss you, Soube

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Originally Posted by illriginalized

Edit: It appears that people just want more of a simpler game. They don't want to deal with the science / mechanics of the game.. they just want to play it.

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Duh. Games are meant to be played and enjoyed. If you want a second job go fill out an app at Walmart or something.

*sniffs* I'm smelling a troll at this point. This will be my last response, unless illriginalized stops avoiding questions with all the subtlety of Sarah Palin avoiding Katie Couric's 'fastballs'.

So, to OP: You started this thread asking for valid opinions. You've been given several. In just this last page, I myself pointed out that gear swapping removes a lot of strategy, and gave a detailed explanation as to why I hold this opinion. More recently, KyrsIsley called you out repeatedly on specifics you avoided addressing. Your response was a poorly worded, largely tangential post based on several dubious arguments, which you concluded with an insult.

If you are somehow aiming to make the anti-swapping crowd look like raving idiots, you are doing an atrocious job. You're in fact emphasizing the stereotypes that many of us have regarding "elitists" obsessed with acquiring every piece of gear possible for every single job. You haven't offered a single skillful, intelligent rebuttal, let alone a valid argument of your own in support of implementing mid-battle swaps.

So - are you actually going to respond to any of the measured, detailed opinions that people have voiced on the subject? Or are you just going to continue implying that it's the rest of us who are morons?

People did just fine with 50 slots and with gear swapping in FFXI
.

@V
What strategy? You can beat everything naked!

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Originally Posted by Rokien

People did just fine with 50 slots and with gear swapping in FFXI
.

@V
What strategy? You can beat everything naked!

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Shush :P just because SE hasn't managed to implement a real challenge yet doesn't mean it isn't possible...

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Originally Posted by Rokien

People did just fine with 50 slots and with gear swapping in FFXI

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Aye that worked... back before gear swapping and gear choices really took off around 05-06 and by then we had at least 60 if not more slots.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

*sniffs* I'm smelling a troll at this point. This will be my last response, unless illriginalized stops avoiding questions with all the subtlety of Sarah Palin avoiding Katie Couric's 'fastballs'.

So, to OP: You started this thread asking for valid opinions. You've been given several. In just this last page, I myself pointed out that gear swapping removes a lot of strategy, and gave a detailed explanation as to why I hold this opinion. More recently, KyrsIsley called you out repeatedly on specifics you avoided addressing. Your response was a poorly worded, largely tangential post based on several dubious arguments, which you concluded with an insult.

If you are somehow aiming to make the anti-swapping crowd look like raving idiots, you are doing an atrocious job. You're in fact emphasizing the stereotypes that many of us have regarding "elitists" obsessed with acquiring every piece of gear possible for every single job. You haven't offered a single skillful, intelligent rebuttal, let alone a valid argument of your own in support of implementing mid-battle swaps.

So - are you actually going to respond to any of the measured, detailed opinions that people have voiced on the subject? Or are you just going to continue implying that it's the rest of us who are morons?

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My intentions for this thread was more for data collection.. surveying if you will. To find a way around the problems people have with utilizing different stats via gear swap mid-battle.

I didn't care for debating it. It wasn't my primary intention for this thread.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Duh. Games are meant to be played and enjoyed. If you want a second job go fill out an app at Walmart or something.

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I'm a server/systems admin, a project manager at that, collecting, analyzing, and utilizing data is part of my everyday life. And I enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

<3 Miss you, Soube



Duh. Games are meant to be played and enjoyed. If you want a second job go fill out an app at Walmart or something.

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What the?! Wynn abandoned us too?! Do you have Starlord hostage?

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Originally Posted by Rokien

People did just fine with 50 slots and with gear swapping in FFXI

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Aye that worked... back before gear swapping and gear choices really took off around 05-06 and by then we had at least 60 if not more slots.

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^This.

And now players have tons of extra storage slots added over the years like gobbie, the token bag, The mog locker...

Even if what you say was/is true, Rokien, I would counter your point with a so what? That's hardly a good reason to add gear swapping in XIV if that's what you were intending to say.

eh, I'm not really a fan of macro gear swapping. I'm more of a fan of "I'm doing this dungeon, this armor set would work best". hmmm, that sounds too similar. I don't want to have to switch different parts of my gear for 10 second intervals then have to switch back. I would like different gear sets that work best in different situations, yes...but only if those situations would call for me to be wearing a particular set for a few hours, or at least an extended period of time. so...in summary: Macro gear swap for one ability: no. full attire set swap for different dungeons, world HNM's, missions: yes.

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Originally Posted by Antanias

<--hands the kitty a ball of yarn

100% agree with this :D

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ZOMG yarn!!!!! :3

(and then god was in his heaven, and all was right with the world.)

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Originally Posted by illriginalized

My intentions for this thread was more for data collection.. surveying if you will. To find a way around the problems people have with utilizing different stats via gear swap mid-battle.

I didn't care for debating it. It wasn't my primary intention for this thread.

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Basically, you are biased. Since you rule out all data that is against your opinion as outliers without really investigating the true merit behind them. I don't think I need to go back to every post that you have demonstrated this kind of bias and point them out.

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Originally Posted by illriginalized

'm a server/systems admin, a project manager at that, collecting, analyzing, and utilizing data is part of my everyday life. And I enjoy it.

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To be honest, you lack the objectivity to be a PM or an analyst. I am also a PM. Sure I do some data collecting and analyzing every now and then, but that's primarily the analyst's job. The main focus of my job is to stay objective so I can successfully communicate with all parties involved in a decision so the decision is made without bias, and frankly you don't have the objectivity.

Why would someone want this?? I'm big on immersion in a video game and having to change your clothes for every other action or skill is the total opposite of that. Use materia, that's what it's there for.

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Originally Posted by KyrsIsley

Basically, you are biased. Since you rule out all data that is against your opinion as outliers without really investigating the true merit behind them. I don't think I need to go back to every post that you have demonstrated this kind of bias and point them out.



To be honest, you lack the objectivity to be a PM or an analyst. I am also a PM. Sure I do some data collecting and analyzing every now and then, but that's primarily the analyst's job. The main focus of my job is to stay objective so I can successfully communicate with all parties involved in a decision so the decision is made without bias, and frankly you don't have the objectivity.

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I didn't shoot down any opposing ideas other than casual play and inventory.

I've been a Project Manager for just over 6 years and with a tech team of 8 members.

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Originally Posted by illriginalized

I didn't shoot down any opposing ideas other than casual play and inventory.

I've been a Project Manager for just over 6 years and with a tech team of 8 members.

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Wow, I mean I was willing to believe you were just some min/maxing snob but if there is any way in the world someone would hire a project manager that selectively ignores feedback and outright refuses to have any kind of conversation...

I just can't believe this. If it's even the slightest bit true, I want the name of your company so I can be sure not to ever purchase anything they produce.

Really...

(By the way, characterizing opposing ideas with negatively charged phrases in an attempt to justify why you disagree is hardly objective by any definition of the word.)

I'm sorry, I'm calling this thread now. There is just no way the OP isn't trololololing us all.

inventory and annoyance

o_O" what.... . how can you swap gear during a fight? weapon may be able to do so, but cloths, and hats? >:O what sorcery is this!

It ruins my immersion, that's good enough reason for me.

Why ask for such a clunky system that was in 11? Instead, ask for more depth in the battle system. Abilities and skills should provide the desired effect, not switching gear mid-fight. I'm sure samurai's did that all the time!

It discourages build-making and diversity: Gear should be about sacrifice. For example, a player chooses to give up a crit piece for an AP piece, so he can be a less bursty DD. If he can change everything on the fly, then naturally everyone will have a set for every situation and play the same way. Ideally players should be able to play each class the way they desire.

Players need more gil for more gear, therefor it promotes RMT. New players in 11 without cash were SOL, and I'd hate to see this game follow route.

I tried to highlight ideas that haven't been mentioned yet, there are plenty of other good reasons that have already been posted.

Gear swapping? No thanks.

like swapping gears will change your damage

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Originally Posted by illriginalized

BTW Mages can gear swap, melee can't. You have a flaw SE. Fix it and give us gear swapping in ACTIVE mode.

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how realistic :roleyes

I'm happy with either-

But as it stands, this game doesn't need gear swapping.

Gear swapping is annoying to me..if others like it thats fine. It has its good points but I'm fine without it...I rather show my "skill" through raw playing then how much 2394028930482390423 gear sets I have to help improve my skill (or lackthereof lols)

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

how realistic :roleyes

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The game is called, "Final Fantasy" after all.

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Originally Posted by LazyBarakat

like swapping gears will change your damage

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Actually after parsing my BLM with Fire and Thunder sets... it does in fact change damage. Melee on the other hand gets the shaft as for some reason the stats for melee seem to be pretty useless, currently.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...44787173_n.jpg

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Originally Posted by illriginalized

So people hate maximum efficiency.

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No you moron, people don't like efficiency rubbed in thier faces when they are trying to enjoy themselves.

...sorry, the bar was lowered in this thread after I left last time.

Gear swapping is totally unnecessary overall. You are saying what other games have and in those systems gear swapping works. What you are not illustrating is what this game has and how other elements compensate for it. You do not have gear swapping here but you do have the ability to change the role you play or the overall party dynamic within an instance. Need more damage...have someone switch to a DD class/job. Need more healing...switch to Conj/Whm. Need another tank etc etc etc. Not many of the other games out there offer this sort of group changing element.

From what I have seen of the OP it seems more like a quest to be a rock star than to have more functionality. This seems to be more about incorporating an element to have players stand head and shoulders above a group rather than working within the party dynamic to make things more efficient. Casual players do not have the time to put into that sort of thing and it defeats the concept of group content if everything hinges on 1-2 people showing up for an event. What you wear for 2-3 seconds should not determine the outcome of a fight but how you go about executing your strategy and how you prepare for a fight as a group. Great individual performances should be notable but not so extreme that they would cause doubt if someone does not show up or is not in that run.

As far as inventory space...there are more than combat classes in this game. Bogging down inventory space with ridiculous amounts of combat gear limits a persons ability to gather or craft. AF gear for all of the jobs alone sucks up 35 slots and that does not count gear for classes that you may still want to use or accessories. That also does not count crafting or gathering gear. Considering the fact that we will be losing one of our retainers in 2.0 I would prefer to stay away from that inventory nightmare.

As I stated initially, gear swapping is not needed when coupled together with the other elements of this game. If it is implemented I will be the first to call for a lifting of restrictions on class and jobs for skill swapping. I think it is far more reasonable to switch a skill that I have from another class/job than it is to swap out my clothes in front of a mob I am attacking repeatedly.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

No you moron, people don't like efficiency rubbed in thier faces when they are trying to enjoy themselves.

...sorry, the bard was lowered in this thread after I left last time.

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lol epic.

Thanks for the early morning lulz :D

Since the converstation has been going nowhere for oh 15 pages or so, I vote that this thread is now about pie!

Like this post if you want this thread to be about pie from this post forward!

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Since the converstation has been going nowhere for oh 15 pages or so, I vote that this thread is now about pie!

Like this post if you want this thread to be about pie from this post forward!

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http://icanhascheezburger.files.word...pped-cream.jpg