This patch dropped the ball hard

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Originally Posted by Colt47

After years of posting on forums like this I don't really expect change to come from one persons meanderings, let alone my own. However, making it known that there is something that can be improved in the design of the game can be useful for others who are looking into making future games like this.

That and they very well may coincidentally implement some of the changes I'm pushing for.

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Money speaks. You have no evidence your ideas will work to improve the game's growth and retention rates. The issue is not with good ideas, they are everywhere. The issue is finding good ideas that are actually worth implementing.

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Originally Posted by ZemusM

No I don't thats why MMO's typically die out after a few years for something new. However the mechanics of said new games still use the same style of loot system that never changes and the cycle repeats itself,

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Oh, how I'm going to be flamed for this, but: SE themselves created n MMO that had P2P for over a decade, with no cash shop shenanigans. Yes, I mean FFXI. I am not saying I want this game to turn into XI, not at all. However, there is no denying that SE did a lot of things right with the game, yet have chosen to ignore it. They could very well give us a similar variety of endgame content that actually lasts more then 3 months.

SE themselves bucked the trend your talking about....yet ignore it all.

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Originally Posted by Ayanno

You have proof of these numbers? Or did you yank them out of the aether?

Regardless: do you really expect people to continue doing the same exact thing forever? As I've said before: there's only so long people are going to put up with the same old song and dance.

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http://www.gamespot.com/articles/squ.../1100-6427263/

Square's Digital Entertainment division was up 18.4%. That's not all driven by FFXIV, but considering they just released an expansion and charged for it, I'd say the game is doing well.

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Originally Posted by Ayanno

Oh, how I'm going to be flamed for this, but: SE themselves created n MMO that had P2P for over a decade, with no cash shop shenanigans. Yes, I mean FFXI. I am not saying I want this game to turn into XI, not at all. However, there is no denying that SE did a lot of things right with the game, yet have chosen to ignore it. They could very well give us a similar variety of endgame content that actually lasts more then 3 months.

SE themselves bucked the trend your talking about....yet ignore it all.

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Compare FFXI's performance to WoW's performance. Which had better growth and retention rates?

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Originally Posted by Delily

Money speaks. You have no evidence your ideas will work to improve the game's growth and retention rates. The issue is not with good ideas, they are everywhere. The issue is finding good ideas that are actually worth implementing.

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Eh, money shouldn't really be relevant to the discussion. A game can be amazing, but end up tanking if it used more money in its development than it can get as a return investment. Wild Star is a good example of that, as it was well received by critics and players, but tanked to F2P nonetheless. Similarly, a game could cut many corners, but have excellent presentation and still be a financial success. Then you have games that can be terrible, but were financially successful due to brand name. FFXIII is a good example of that. The money gained from sales is the result of a lot of factors, some of which can have an effect disproportional to whether the game is actually considered good to its intended audience.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Compare FFXI's performance to WoW's performance. Which had better growth and retention rates?

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And? They are/were both profitable MMO's with a different take on the genre. Also, retention rates? They both lasted for over a decade, I'd say both games had vey good retention rates.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Eh, money shouldn't really be relevant to the discussion. *snip*.

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Money is literally the reason FFXIV exists. Everyone has all sorts of ideas on how to improve the game, but no one is capable of proving those ideas will attract new customers and retain existing ones. The teams working on the game have plenty of work to do. If you're going to make a suggestion, bring some proof it's worth implementing.

All of this talk about finances is completely bloody pointless.

Let Square Enix hash out the numbers. That's entirely on them. All we can do is keep making noise and hope that SE recognizes that there is a contingent of their player base that does not find the status quo to be acceptable. I mean, that is literally the only thing we can do, because obviously money doesn't actually talk (unsubbing says something but it can say any number of things especially since they don't have an unsubscription survey). Telling us not to bother BECAUSE MONEY is about the most unproductive conversation we can possibly have, ever.

Lol, "bring proof" you say. The proof is in our words and deeds. You're not going to get people to somehow magically create a representative survey of the player base or create some kind of amazing presentation to show how THIS solution is so much better than THAT solution, so that kind of rhetoric is effectively the same thing as "don't bother, you can't win", and just as unproductive as the BECAUSE MONEY excuse.

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Originally Posted by Ayanno

And? They are/were both profitable MMO's with a different take on the genre. Also, retention rates? They both lasted for over a decade, I'd say both games had vey good retention rates.

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Ok, I'll agree with retention rate. Imagine you're an investor in Square. Which game would you rather have them focus on?

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Originally Posted by Delily

Ok, I'll agree with retention rate. Imagine you're an investor in Square. Which game would you rather have them focus on?

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I'd rather them focus on their own game/history then giving two shits what the other guys are doing. If that means bringing something from XI(which they've been doing all along),tweaking it for this game, then so be it. If it means coming up with something entirely new, then so be it.

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Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

All of this talk about finances is completely bloody pointless.

Let Square Enix hash out the numbers. That's entirely on them. All we can do is keep making noise and hope that SE recognizes that there is a contingent of their player base that does not find the status quo to be acceptable. I mean, that is literally the only thing we can do, because obviously money doesn't actually talk (unsubbing says something but it can say any number of things especially since they don't have an unsubscription survey). Telling us not to bother BECAUSE MONEY is about the most unproductive conversation we can possibly have, ever.

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Yes it is up to Square to hash out those numbers; which is why they don't implement the vast majority of suggestions people come up with. As for people who aren't happy with the status quo, take a number and get in line, the vast majority of posts here are complaints or suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Ayanno

I'd rather them focus on their own game/history then giving two shits what the other guys are doing. If that means bringing something from XI(which they've been doing all along),tweaking it for this game, then so be it. If it means coming up with something entirely new, then so be it.

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Except the other guys are doing things that are successful.

I'm feeling an onset of fatigue myself. Astrologian breathed a lot of life into this game for me, but I'm finding I've significantly cut down on FF14 time for other single player games. In fact, a few of those games are remakes. I'm having more fun replaying games that are nothing more than a visual upgrade, that are otherwise the exact same game from as much as 6 years ago, than I am in an expansion intended to provide months of fresh new content that has already become stale. I understand there are other facets to the game other than simply grind to endgame, but like I mentioned before, AST has played no small part in my continued interest in the game, and I enjoy experimenting, playing, and progressing with one or two classes at a time.

Take my opinion for what you will (since it's exactly that: an opinion), but this is the least interested I've been in FF14 since starting in 2.0 beta, which is a disappointing feeling considering an expac literally just dropped. The only thing left on the way to the new EX primals and Alex is a long, slow grind of alternate currency. There's hardly any satisfaction in walking to a vendor after slogging through your dungeons, forking over the appropriately colored tome, and getting your gear. Once upon a time, that was enough. But I've done that for two years now, it doesn't hold any thrill for me anymore. A creative grind should be one that keeps the player engaged, or even makes them forget at times that they're in a grind. As it is, with this carrot and stick method, I'm losing interest. I've tasted the carrot before, and offering it in the same exact way doesn't make me want to work any faster, longer, or harder for it. I'm hoping for something creative come the relic quest, but as far as gearing goes, I've been woefully disappointed since the start of Hunts 3.0.

Anyways, thanks for reading the musings of a tired vet. I really love the beautiful realms of Eorzea, I'm just hoping for more creative and compelling reasons to continue to explore it in the future.

The expansion has not been out long enough to really say how bad it's doing and i think FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn speak for itself it was a hit. The subs are still flying in and take a look at mmo games right now ESO WOW and the once pay to play ones that went free to play due to a lack of subs ff is one of the best on the market. So id say SE is doing more right then wrong yea? sure ffhw is not perfect and has some problems but give it time:D all the hate gets old

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Originally Posted by Delily

Money is literally the reason FFXIV exists. Everyone has all sorts of ideas on how to improve the game, but no one is capable of proving those ideas will attract new customers and retain existing ones. The teams working on the game have plenty of work to do. If you're going to make a suggestion, bring some proof it's worth implementing.

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Its this very mentality that caused the decade of the WoW clone.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Except the other guys are doing things that are successful.

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So what your saying is, is that because another company is successful, every other company should just do the same thing? Is this seriously the argument your bringing to this discussion? If it is --------> door, because that's just foolish.

Titanic was the most successful film of 1997......should every movie now be Ttanic #4366878456? Shakespeare was the most successful play write of his time.....should every play be Romeo and Juliet?

.............seriously? This is your argument?

72 weeks later I CRAFTED EVERYTHING this patch let me.. Gated content sucks..

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Originally Posted by Delily

Money is literally the reason FFXIV exists. Everyone has all sorts of ideas on how to improve the game, but no one is capable of proving those ideas will attract new customers and retain existing ones. The teams working on the game have plenty of work to do. If you're going to make a suggestion, bring some proof it's worth implementing.

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Do you have any idea how many people bring up money, and how superfluous that comment even is? They could be more successful if they implement changes that make people happy, therefore make more money. All you are doing is saying "Well I like the way things are so I'll just say money speaks and be done with it since it makes my comment sound more legitimate."

Also, burden of proofing this discussion as well? How about not reaching for low hanging fruit. :p

Honestly, you are coming off as not really wanting to be in this discussion, given how hard you seem to want to shut it down.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Yes it is up to Square to hash out those numbers; which is why they don't implement the vast majority of suggestions people come up with. As for people who aren't happy with the status quo, take a number and get in line, the vast majority of posts here are complaints or suggestions.

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Thats cause people who are enjoying the game are actually playing it, not coming to the forums to moan and lament. Gotta love armchair devs...

I'm still going through the HW story, almost done though. So far, I've been enjoying it. I will freely admit there are a lot of quests and they are more tedious than they need to be, I would prefer one large, long, quality quest that yields massive exp for completion over 15 little mindless quests that yield the same amount of exp but the nice thing is once they are done, they are done. Unless I'm going to take an alt through it all (I feel sorry for people who use alts in this game) quests are really a one shot deal. I only feel bad for the devs for putting in lots of effort into the flavor of the text and translation etc for something that almost everyone will skip. The other thing that bugs me are the GC restrictions for PvP (absolutely pointless and only hurts PvP when they really need to be making it as appealing as possible), and then there is the Personal Housing. I have a whole thread of my own dedicated to Housing, The FC housing is fine as is but Personal Housing needs to be instanced. The only barrier to Personal Housing should be the gil requirement, not first come first served.

But that is really the only, sorta, complaint I have. Other than that, Loving this expansion and the game in general! Flying is awesome, the zones are fantastic, and the story is stellar. This is the first FF since X that has actually helped me enjoy the franchise again. What I am really looking forward to is what will the 3.X patches bring? Through 2.0 we got so many new systems, zones, mechanics, dungeons, gear, etc. what new stuff will we be seeing in 3.X? I'm hoping to see the FC Summoning system at least get hinted at.

Anyway, its fine to have some aspect of the game that bugs you or that you feel could be improved, but its how you present your argument. If you start spouting off about how "its so terrible that the game is doomed unless you listen to ME!!!" then you have gone beyond the realm of rationality and the argument, however valid some points may be, get dismissed offhandedly. Who wants to have a conversation with someone who is on the verge of exploding? To have a rational approach to something that you may not agree with, point out things you see as issues in a way where it is your opinion that this might help make the game better is far more approachable than berating the devs, calling them stupid, inept, incompetent, etc. all you have to do is read your post and ask yourself, If this was directed at me, how would I react?

"I think you totally dropped the ball when you commented here, you should just uninstall and quit life!"

Do you react positively to that or negatively?

You are all missing the point. The forums are filled with good ideas. They are a dime a dozen, yet no one bothers to give evidence the idea will improve the experience or attract new customers. Why should SE implement your idea if it has no impact on growth or retention rate?

Huh, suddenly everyone is a financial expert.

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Originally Posted by Delily

You are all missing the point. The forums are filled with good ideas. They are a dime a dozen, yet no one bothers to give evidence the idea will improve the experience or attract new customers. Why should SE implement your idea if it has no impact on growth or retention rate?

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Could you imagine a game where every persons "good idea" was implemented? It would be a mess. What's a good idea to one person is not so good for another. For instance, there was a thread about the DRG AF2 "Please get rid of the belly window!" so the AF2 doesnt have it, and now on or near the first page is a thread "Wheres my DRG cleavage window!" from a different person. Also, we have no idea how a "simple change" might affect the workings of the rest of the game or how "simple" it really would be to implement. None of us are on this particular dev team, None of us know what they are really doing behind the scenes. Sure we can make guesses, some more educated than others, but in the end we just dont know all the details. and the details are important.

"Get rid of GC restrictions on all frontlines" sounds really simple. is it though? I really dont know.

"EXP from open world mobs, let us camp and farm them! Make that EXP so it is a better option." Sounds simple, just up the exp from OW mobs, but how will this affect the rest of the game. Just look at hunts. When they were first introduced they were the quickest, easiest, way to get some of the top tier stuff so they became the path of least resistance and everyone flocked to them. I know mechanics of it were problematic but the Players are what ruin a game more often than anything else through exploitation of that path of least resistance. Same thing happened when FATE's were the best way to level, no one did dungeons, no one was learning their roles, and people just spammed FATE's then complained about it.

I could keep going with more examples of how Players ruin games with their "great ideas" but I think you get the point. But your point was not lost on me, I even addressed it in my previous post, if you read it. I just used this post to expand on the "good ideas" part of your "point".

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Originally Posted by Delily

You are all missing the point. The forums are filled with good ideas. They are a dime a dozen, yet no one bothers to give evidence the idea will improve the experience or attract new customers. Why should SE implement your idea if it has no impact on growth or retention rate?

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If this was your point, you should've made it instead of harping about financials and which MMO company was more successful.

I'll answer your question with a question: How do you, and SE, know that a suggestion offered here won't improve the experience or attract new customers if they don't try?

Here:

Allagan Tomestone of Philosphy
Allagan Tomestone of Mythology
Allagan Tomestone of Soldiery
Allagan Tomestone of Poetics
Allagan Tomestone of Law
Allagan Tomestone of Esoterics

Six different colors of the same carrot. You speak of impact on growth, and retention rates.....how long do you expect people to chase the same carrot, in the same way, just with a new name/color? How do you expect SE to retain customers under the current "same old, same old" unless they actually try something new.

The people making suggestions, TRUE suggestions to improve the game and not just complainers(yes, they are not the same thing) are people who LOVE this game and want it to last.

Smashing your face against the same wall stops being fun pretty damned quickly. Chasing the same carrot forever, without SE even trying to make it seem different, is going to kill the game a hell of a lot sooner then you, or apparently they, realize.

The amount of people being tired of the same shit, and coming to the forums to criticize that fact, has increased since the expansion. That is not a good sign

I want this game to succeed. I want to play it for the next decade, like I played XI for a decade. I won't if SE keeps giving me the same damn carrot every 3-6 months. I am not the only one.

Well I finished the MSQ and mostly just waiting around for 3.1 so I can continue the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Ayanno

snippu

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This, holy hell, so much this.

I'm fine with work in a game, I love having attainable goals that are enjoyable to reach! The problem is though, doing literally the same darn thing over, and over, and over (grind tomes, spend tomes, 24man raid, rinse/repeat) is getting so freaking old now.

I made a post a couple of days ago about this exact thing. We're playing an MMO, things are always going to be made obsolete so you can aim for the next tier, but there is no variety whatsoever and so much needless gating (Here's looking at you, job specific gearsets + don't even get me started on where crafting and gathering have gone. Many more threads have popped up and their respective OPs have written more eloquently than I could have~) That the game has stopped being fun. I feel kinda jipped because I refreshed my sub for like 6 months right before HW hit (whoops!) because I thought the game would start heading in a really good direction... but honestly I feel like it was indeed money wasted now.

I still have another 5 months left on my sub time. I hope that in this time SE does decide to start listening to players, maybe add a little variety and flavor to the game or I am sad to say that I won't be refreshing my sub. (Don't mistake this as an OMG CHANGE THIS OR I WILL QUIT! post XD, I just feel like my time and my cash would be better elsewhere, and I'm super chill about it.)

People have brought up that "this is the way it's always been! this system has been in place since 2.0!" This is true, and it's also the problem. I think we're well overdue for a shake-up.

Have a wonderful day guys :3

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Originally Posted by Colt47

They could be more successful if they implement changes that make people happy, therefore make more money.

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This would be correct if not for the fact that people will never be happy. These forums are proof of that. No one will ever be satisfied and once 10,000 complaints have been silenced, 10,000 more will take its place, all in the name of "We want this game to be better and last decades."

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Originally Posted by Nix

I'm fine with work in a game, I love having attainable goals that are enjoyable to reach! The problem is though, doing literally the same darn thing over, and over, and over (grind tomes, spend tomes, 24man raid, rinse/repeat) is getting so freaking old now.

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It's an MMO. You go in expecting to do things ad nauseum. Outside of giving you tomes for each step you take in game, grinding will always be repetitive. Hell, we can even go a step further and say all games are repetitive. Until that day when the devs have an unlimited pool of cash and a rotating group of manpower to create new content every week to keep the game "fresh" for everyone, someone will always find things stale.

Everyone is against gating, but I'm curious of the alternative people have in their minds to extend the content we are given to keep it "fresh" all the way to the next patch. Lower drop rates simply means you're doing that content even more. Guaranteed drops for everyone shortens the lifespan of said content. More dungeons doesn't fix the issue. More events eventually start being similar to each other, leading us back to the original issue. Something "new" we haven't seen before in any MMO? I ask, "What haven't we seen yet?" And how long until it's deemed "same ol' same ol'" and we go back to saying "been there, done that, NEXT?"

I've always thought relic armor progression culminating in a quest that allows you to choose from a list of ability upgrades that could be switched like "loadouts" would be a good alternative, but if they were to implement this, there would be no need to develop armor drops in newer content. All they need do is add more quests to increase relic armor ilvl to match new content requirements. Any other gear would be simply glamour.

Then again, people would be complaining that they're being forced into one job because that relic armour with perfect combinations of ability upgrades are job specific (just look at Diablo 3). Maybe introducing an NPC that you trade tokens to to infuse ability upgrades into your current gear? But then you have to grind the same content for said tokens...

Hm...

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Originally Posted by Rafaelhades

It's an MMO. You go in expecting to do things ad nauseum. Outside of giving you tomes for each step you take in game, grinding will always be repetitive. Hell, we can even go a step further and say all games are repetitive. Until that day when the devs have an unlimited pool of cash and a rotating group of manpower to create new content every week to keep the game "fresh" for everyone, someone will always find things stale.

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I understand this well, I've played MMOs for many many years. But honestly, out of the many games I have played, this one feels like it's one of the worst when rehashing content. It doesn't feel challenging or even have flavor to it. We pretty much wait around for the inevitable crush every 6 months when they bring out a new tier gearset, so we can grind our tomes again on a small handful of dungeons, to get our new gear, which will be obsolete again in 6months time.

Content doesn't have to be rotated in every week to keep the game fresh, but having real longevity to content instead of tomecapping folks so force them to only gear at a certain rate, whether they are skilled players or not (let's face it, the 2 dungeons we do have for decent tomegrinding aren't exactly difficult).

Let's take FFXI for example; while the game wasn't exactly casual friendly way back (You did have to put in some hours!), there were many ways to gear up the jobs you chose to play. There were gods in sky, jailers in sea, dynamis, salvage, assault, limbus/temenos etc etc. There were timed gates on certain content (dynamis lockouts for example) to stop you from being in there every day (though that has changed now, and the lockout is 24hr iirc), there was still plenty of content that allowed you to gear up your jobs. Min/maxers could grind for BIS gear, sink some gil into some nice sets (Here's to you, Marduk <3), while others could get some pretty decent sets elsewhere too that didn't require that you sold your first born and lived the life of a monitor-bleached hermit.

To sum it up, there were many ways to skin a cat (sorry, Miqo'te).

Here, not so much. Same technique, but every 6months or so, the name (of the tome) changes.

I'm not sure if I'm articulating my point well XD I'm sorry, I'm super brainfried from studies. I guess what I want to say is, I wish there was some REAL longevity in the content that didn't rely on forcing everyone to a grinding halt in order to make the content last longer. Right now, with us only being able to really truly gear one job at a time (since no job-shared equipment), it's going to take us muuuuuuuuuuch longer than in previous expansions, especially for those of us who use multiple classes. The effort for one set is pretty high (3.5 months I think someone worked it out to earlier), now repeat this for every battle/magic class you play. That's just abysmal @_@;. I can understand if this was a game that focused on you playing one class only, having a great grindfest for one gearset... but this game touts the fact that you can do everything from one character, so it feels like punishing us for that choice when this kind of system + lockout pops up (to this extent).
I guess the grind would be a bit less painful if there was variety in such content, but really there isn't. We've been grinding what... 2 dungeons, and a 24 man raid since the earlier days of 2.0 (though I can't remember the date that our first 24man came out off the top of my head!)

Sorry for rambling, have a wonderful day guys!

I have to admit; I do love it when we, as a playerbase, can have rational discussion><!


Forgot to add this (I'm good at forgetting...): I agree with you, what you say about people never being happy XD What is good for the goose, may not be good for the gander, I think the saying goes -_o

It would be nice if we could find a happy medium though XD (I wiiiiish~)

I just want Dynamis not weekly caps.

Would have made nostalgic sense for AF2...

Would have been perfect for gearing alt jobs

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Originally Posted by Altanas

I just want Dynamis not weekly caps.

Would have made nostalgic sense for AF2...

Would have been perfect for gearing alt jobs

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I hated the asshattery that was bred with dynamis... those waiting lists for d.chap, only to have someone ninja it from you... Q_Q (twice.. it stings!)

But it could be so fun! Overly long, but fun :3

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Originally Posted by Ayanno

If this was your point, you should've made it instead of harping about financials and which MMO company was more successful.

I'll answer your question with a question: How do you, and SE, know that a suggestion offered here won't improve the experience or attract new customers if they don't try?



The people making suggestions, TRUE suggestions to improve the game and not just complainers(yes, they are not the same thing) are people who LOVE this game and want it to last.

Smashing your face against the same wall stops being fun pretty damned quickly. Chasing the same carrot forever, without SE even trying to make it seem different, is going to kill the game a hell of a lot sooner then you, or apparently they, realize.

The amount of people being tired of the same shit, and coming to the forums to criticize that fact, has increased since the expansion. That is not a good sign

I want this game to succeed. I want to play it for the next decade, like I played XI for a decade. I won't if SE keeps giving me the same damn carrot every 3-6 months. I am not the only one.

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Sorry, burden of proof. If you want something changed, you have to give evidence that it would be an improvement and that the majority would like it. The shifting of the burden of proof just because you can't isn't an argument. Plus, they have a market research team for a reason. That's their entire job is to research reactions from the demographic.

We have evidence that the current system works: 4,000,000+ players. You may not be personally pleased by aspects, but you can't please everyone. As a business, their goal is to please the largest number of people they can, which often means upsetting the minority.

The forums are never, never, ever a valid or reliable source for anything. For one, it's only an extremely small number of the total population that post here. For two, people come to forums to complain, not to praise. The people happy with the game are playing it and if they have nothing to complain about, are far, far less likely to come to the forums. This is why the forums for every game are filled with negativity and trolls. Because people are loudest when they are upset and want to complain.

So yeah, the fact you see complaints on the forums is no surprise at all, and no indication that anything needs to be changed.

The problem with more side content is that unless they keep upgrading it every patch, it doesn't work with the vertical progression system. No one does WP or AK unless it's in their roulette and no one bothers to go in to level capped dungeons other than roulette. Maybe adding tomes to them and uncapping tomes? Then it's still a grind. and changing up the way dungeons work requires a major overhaul. Can it be done? Sure but they would have to redo the roulette system.

Another issue to crop up with side events for tokens would be that players will just find the most efficient way to farm it, leading to repetitive token grinds for gear. Unless they gate individual job gear to different events, some events will be barren due to how less efficient they are, which leads to no queues and players being forced to the efficient one (ala WP spam over AK in 2.X).

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

We have evidence that the current system works: 4,000,000+ players.

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Not really. That's just the number of people that have purchased a box copy and logged into the game (since trial accounts aren't included). It says absolutely nothing about their retention numbers.

I find it very telling that they've never once just straight-up told us 'we have X number of subscribers right now', or even given us another player concurrency number (which was something they did waaay back at launch when we broke 100k concurrent players). I suspect the reason they haven't told us is because they are not proud of those numbers and are having issues retaining subscribers over the long haul.

This isn't even going to be my first hiatus from the game. I did the same thing back during the launch of 2.0, and didn't come back until Syrcus Tower was released. When history repeats itself... Well, they would do well to learn from it, wouldn't they?

Rafaelhades that is exactly what I've been saying earlier in the thread about the way the rewards are being distributed. The majority of the newest currency are locked into either expert roulette, made up of two dungeons, and Alexander. Those two are the easiest sources of this editions myth tomes, and already people were burned out on expert roulette from farming law. Now we don't even have high level roulette to help break things up.

People should be getting small amounts of true end game gear currency from just about everything they do. That way there is enough variety to keep people playing, maybe even earn some while leveling other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

People should be getting small amounts of true end game gear currency from just about everything they do. That way there is enough variety to keep people playing, maybe even earn some while leveling other jobs.

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We do. We get Eso from every roulette except MSQ. And besides, to cap out Eso you only have to run 1 expert roulette a day for 6 days. That's a total playtime of 3 hours.

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Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

This isn't even going to be my first hiatus from the game. I did the same thing back during the launch of 2.0, and didn't come back until Syrcus Tower was released. When history repeats itself... Well, they would do well to learn from it, wouldn't they?

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Learn from what? You certainly have a high opinion of yourself if you think they care (or should care) about you taking a break.

News Flash: You are not representative of all players. Your opinion is not the majority opinion or what everyone else thinks and feels.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Rafaelhades that is exactly what I've been saying earlier in the thread about the way the rewards are being distributed. The majority of the newest currency are locked into either expert roulette, made up of two dungeons, and Alexander. Those two are the easiest sources of this editions myth tomes, and already people were burned out on expert roulette from farming law. Now we don't even have high level roulette to help break things up.

People should be getting small amounts of true end game gear currency from just about everything they do. That way there is enough variety to keep people playing, maybe even earn some while leveling other jobs.

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But we already do. I've capped Esoterics on Wednesday doing anything but roulette and dungeon spam. Got Alex gear for the week through PF runs and DF, did Ravana EX with static for weapons and tokens and did 0 dungeons for my mains. Geared both BRD and MCH and used roulettes to level WAR to 56. There is enough variety in the current content to not burn out grinding tomes from Neverreap/Fractal, unless you absolutely need to cap on Tuesday.

Granted, I spammed Alex 20 times due to 4 run pts and Ravana because he's sgot a stranglehold on my bow but better and faster than Neverreap ad nauseum.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

If you want something changed, you have to give evidence that it would be an improvement and that the majority would like it.

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Uh...huh....right. Yeah, in theory. In theory that's how it is and that's how it works. In practice however... in short: don't tell me all those failures would have happened if that was the way it works. All the new - whatever type of content in any game, or any sequel of any game, or even movies or whatever - that so many things in history failed because the market research teams did all their work and did it 100% perfectly and reliably. Proof only goes so far, and especially when it's not proof but only a projection of expectations for the future, it has as much chance to fail as to do succeed. Many of the biggest successes are actually born from taking the biggest risks; sure you can go on walking the same old path every day, but eventually it will get old and obsolete and you'll meet less and less people on that road as time goes by. And when you realise you should've found another path because yours is all abandoned, it's already too late.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

As a business, their goal is to please the largest number of people they can, which often means upsetting the minority.

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Again, in theory. I've lost count of how many times I felt that SE is aiming to please, say, hardcore raiders/crafters/gatherers, and not giving one chocobo tailfeather about the rest of us. Don't tell me those groups are not absolute minorities; don't tell me I must be alone having felt like that - posts across numerous threads over the months have proven that I'm not. Even if the people posting on here are only a small fraction of the actual playerbase. So yeah, once again, theoretically that's how it works. But practice is different and in practice that "rule" has to be overlooked and overwritten far too often, because the several minorities will end up making up quite a nice chunk of the whole, while the "majority" is just "doing ok anyway".

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

We do. We get Eso from every roulette except MSQ.

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We get Esoterics from Expert (35), Leveling (5, and it's completely stupid, being forced to choose between leveling and Esoterics), Trials (10), and Frontline (20, but good luck with that, at least on some worlds the queues are pretty much infinite because nobody's doing PvP).
No Esoterics from High - again, stupid, because those are literally not good for anything else than tomes (and zodiac drops maybe but then you don't do that via roulette), I really don't understand why the lv50 "hard" ones and their equivalents were not upgraded to give at least some spare change exp at least from the bosses; no Esoterics from MSQ - I'd say it's also stupid, because 120 Poetics will not ever encourage anyone at 60 to go and help out with CM/Praetorium; no Esoterics from Guildhest Roulette either - that's maybe the only one that actually makes sense (though maybe this one could drop some Poetics or maybe Law when done with a lv60, else there's no motivation to help out here either).

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Originally Posted by Rafaelhades

But we already do. I've capped Esoterics on Wednesday doing anything but roulette and dungeon spam. Got Alex gear for the week through PF runs and DF, did Ravana EX with static for weapons and tokens and did 0 dungeons for my mains. Geared both BRD and MCH and used roulettes to level WAR to 56. There is enough variety in the current content to not burn out grinding tomes from Neverreap/Fractal, unless you absolutely need to cap on Tuesday.

Granted, I spammed Alex 20 times due to 4 run pts and Ravana because he's sgot a stranglehold on my bow but better and faster than Neverreap ad nauseum.

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Good for you! Like, honestly, I do mean that. /cheer
But let's look at the other side. I've leveled my BLM from 58+ to 60. I did Experts, and at least once went through all the other roulettes as well (except for Frontline because that's impossible). I did hunts, I did a few FATEs. I farmed Alexander for drops, got it from 3 and 4, still missing from 1 and 2. Did GC Provisioning like twice with both MNR and BTN. So I don't think I can be blamed with doing content in a way that'd get me to burn out. I can't farm Ravana because I still couldn't even find a group that could've managed to kill Bismarck. That's where I am right now, and I still "only" have 390 Esoterics. And yes I know it's basically one roulette to cap now, just countering all that. It's Saturday (for me here) and I'm still not capped - pretty sure about as many people are in my shoes as in yours.

That just proves that doing any content will put you well on your way to capping Esoterics without spamming 60 dungeons. It`s Saturday and you`re 390/450 while doing other things not related to grinding the same 2 dungeons over and over. Unless you really need to cap right away, you can progress at a steady clip and have the option to bulk farm if life requires you to not log on. My little foray into story time was just meant to show that I never felt obligated to hop into a dungeon just for tomes.

As an aside, 5 Esoterics for levelling roulette is not worth it in my mind. The exp boost on a lower level job is a better use for that. Expert roulette every day + Alexander NM for your weekly should be all you need.

Though I've spent more then a week away from the game since the patch, I still feel very strongly that the game needs a overhaul on it's current gear acquisition model and we're overall, being corralled into a constant, unchanging method. While some of you are ok with constantly following the same method, I still believe that if the game featured more ways to obtaining gear, it would be a more fruitful experience. I think the game could utilize the treasure hunting aspect to include gear, redevelop the crafting and allow it to be on par with tome gear or maybe include a randomly generated dungeon that could drop gear and include pieces from tomes. However I feel treasure hunting and the random dungeon gear drop would have to be low, but not make it low enough to disregard them as a viable options for players to explore.

Why are we always talking from the view of a player who cleared the storyline?
If you have to catch up there is not much where you can gain those stones, you first have to reach endgame BEFORE you can start farming them...
For someone who is not so far storywise it is hell of a burden to rush things just to start grinding afterwards!

The Lockout in roulette is just because programming sucks! The system does not allow to choose from the cleared dungeons, its static programming and only allows the set dungeons, so if you dont have the set dungeons and the system is choosing a dungeon you did not clear it will most likely crash...

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Sorry, burden of proof. If you want something changed, you have to give evidence that it would be an improvement and that the majority would like it. The shifting of the burden of proof just because you can't isn't an argument. Plus, they have a market research team for a reason. That's their entire job is to research reactions from the demographic.

We have evidence that the current system works: 4,000,000+ players. You may not be personally pleased by aspects, but you can't please everyone. As a business, their goal is to please the largest number of people they can, which often means upsetting the minority.

The forums are never, never, ever a valid or reliable source for anything. For one, it's only an extremely small number of the total population that post here. For two, people come to forums to complain, not to praise. The people happy with the game are playing it and if they have nothing to complain about, are far, far less likely to come to the forums. This is why the forums for every game are filled with negativity and trolls. Because people are loudest when they are upset and want to complain.

So yeah, the fact you see complaints on the forums is no surprise at all, and no indication that anything needs to be changed.

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Give evidence that it will be an improvement? Really now? There is no chance of something being a failure or success if you never try SE knew, absolutely knew that 1.0 would be a success. There was no doubt in their minds that it would succeed. It failed, horribly. SE didn't know, at all, if ARR was going to succeed, not with the history of the game being so.......rocky, shall we say. They hoped, oh, they hoped, but they didn't know until after the game's launch.

Market research team? This same team that told them 1.0 was going to succeed? This same team that told them Spirits Within would be a box office smash, so pour all that money into it? Really? That market research team? Ok then. You brought that winner of a point up. Nice work.

We have evidence that 4 Million+ players have purchased the game since ARR's launch. We have ZERO evidence of the number of active subscribers at any time Before the expansion, after, during whatever. SE has not yet(WHY!?) gone public with how many subscribers are active, just how many copies of the game they have sold. Again, YOU brought this winner of a point up.

Tis true that discussion forums can be......wanting.....in getting solid feedback on any topic. However, changes in the game, for the better, I might add, would not have occurred if the people here didn't voice their concerns, and give informed, proper, TRUE feedback. There are complainers, sensationalists, trolls etc etc every where, yes indeed. If you sift through the forums, and in truth, ANY source of public feedback, you will find customers who have good ideas, who have thought of something the devs missed(they are human, after all) and the devs see it. They go ya know, that's pretty good! Let's do it. Fantasia's off the top of my head comes to mind. There are many, many more.

Was there anything else, cupcake?