I chose BRD for swift gameplay, if I wanted to cast I would have chosen a Mage.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

What? So other mmos who have the same concept and a better combat system is op because of freedom of movement?


People need to get over it. Classes should be about play style, Harder Easier none of that matters, what matters is fun, and what they bring to a group.

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No they should be about balance. It's a good thing that no one on the development team shares this terrible opinion and actually think about content balance and class balance.

I wasn't to impressed on the questions selected. Most of them were vague answers or questions for spoilers and asking for mounts/minions.

It sounded like yoshi said. Deal with the change and "git gud". When the problem wasn't really the damage, the problem was the freedom of the game play change for Bards/Archer. Of course he said the usual developer response as well "we will look into it"

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

You can't have absolute mobility and good damage. That's way too overpowered and difficult to balance around. You also have to balance around group content. If their damage isn't good enough, they may get excluded in favour if Machinist.

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How is it overpowered if we don't do more damage than the other classes?
Bard is easier to play with minuet on, since it's slower and no auto attacks so can face away from boss with no damage loss, so get good doesn't really make sense.
and they should be balanced, but balance should not come at the expense of fun

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Originally Posted by Rikkustrife

How is it overpowered if we don't do more damage than the other classes?
Bard is easier to play with minuet on, since it's slower and no auto attacks so can face away from boss with no damage loss, so get good doesn't really make sense.
and they should be balanced, but balance should not come at the expense of fun

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They said in the very first sentence (and I even mentioned it before the live letter) that the reason for the change was that bards had an advantage in doing mechanics? How can the scale the difficulty of fights as our gear get better? Make more mechanics that require you to move around, which hurts every class other than bard? Make more DPS checks, which in that case people will just drop every class but melee from their groups? You don't even use this "freedom of movement" to do anything. What were you even doing when you could (and still can BTW, 1 cast doesn't consume the entire GCD unlike other classes) move between attacks?

we used freedom of movement to be able to use repelling shot between the global cooldown and continuously attack while dodging aoes, which is made up by our weapon damage being lower than the other classes

and we couldn't just move between attacks, we could move during them as well, like every other tp class can

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Originally Posted by Rikkustrife

we used freedom of movement to be able to use repelling shot between the global cooldown and continuously attack while dodging aoes, which is made up by our weapon damage being lower than the other classes

and we couldn't just move between attacks, we could move during them as well, like every other tp class can

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So just using repelling shot. (which you can still do BTW). You don't have positional so you weren't moving while attacking for any reason. The fact that you can dodge AOEs and still have uptime is the reason the class lost mobility; you can't make any challenging content because bard exists. If they somehow did, then it would be impossible to play monk or black mage for whatever they implement.

Wanderer's minuet doesn't make bard any harder to play though.

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Originally Posted by Rikkustrife

Wanderer's minuet doesn't make bard any harder to play though.

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Just makes it unfun, and many bards are not using it to take that stance.

Also, Are we really going to talk about balance on class play styles? I mean really? People are so Jaded it seems. No fair I got to stand here and cast, but they can run around and shoot. So what? Play a bard also? Maybe you don't like your class as much as you think, if you are willing to cry about what others have. Giving more reasons to argue about being a caster bard.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

No they should be about balance. It's a good thing that no one on the development team shares this terrible opinion and actually think about content balance and class balance.

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You can have classes with different gameplay styles performing equally or close to equally in content. Making classes mechanically similar is a shortcut, and a bad one at that.

The balance to ARC/BRD gameplay was that despite constantly using abilities and being able to attack while moving, their damage per skill was low compared to other jobs. That was sort of the point. BRD = steady trickle of water. BLM = bucket of water. Or are you going to tell me that a Bloodletter/Misery's End crit was anywhere near the same postal code as a crit Fire III or Flare?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You can have classes with different gameplay styles performing equally or close to equally in content. Making classes mechanically similar is a shortcut, and a bad one at that.

The balance to ARC/BRD gameplay was that despite constantly using abilities and being able to attack while moving, their damage per skill was low compared to other jobs. That was sort of the point. BRD = steady trickle of water. BLM = bucket of water. Or are you going to tell me that a Bloodletter/Misery's End crit was anywhere near the same postal code as a crit Fire III or Flare?

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I stop trying to use logic. :(

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Just makes it unfun, and many bards are not using it to take that stance.

Also, Are we really going to talk about balance on class play styles? I mean really? People are so Jaded it seems. No fair I got to stand here and cast, but they can run around and shoot. So what? Play a bard also? Maybe you don't like your class as much as you think, if you are willing to cry about what others have. Giving more reasons to argue about being a caster bard.

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It's not about jealousy, it's about balance.

They introduced 5 new skills for every job. BRDs have always done lower damage per hit because they can move and attack, and don't need to be in close range. It keeps balance with the melee DPS jobs. So the new skills increase the BRDs damage at the cost of having to stand still for a whopping 1.5s. Boo hoo. The cries of "I don't wanna be a caster" are all hyperbolic BS. 1.5s is nothing compared to casters. It's just a charge attack like in an action game.

"Fun" is entirely subjective. You cannot claim "it makes BRD unfun", because that's only true for you, not everyone who plays BRD on the whole. It doesn't significantly change the playstyle of BRD at all. It added charge attacks that have a significantly shorter charge time than any spell from a caster.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

"Fun" is entirely subjective. You cannot claim "it makes BRD unfun", because that's only true for you, not everyone who plays BRD on the whole.

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Maybe not, but what does the vast majority feel? Because I have seen a huge chunk of Bards angry about this, but only a handful seem to not care or like it. So who should we cater to? The few or the majority?

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Originally Posted by Vespar

Maybe not, but what does the vast majority feel? Because I have seen a huge chunk of Bards angry about this, but only a handful seem to not care or like it. So who should we cater to? The few or the majority?

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Ahh, the age old fallacy of "I see more people complaining about it than not".

Firstly, that's anecdotal. Personally, I've seen far more people fine with/ok/liking the new mechanics than I've seen complain about it. So which one of us is correct? The answer is neither.

Secondly, the forums in no way represent the majority, nor can you determine what the vast majority feel from the forums.

Thirdly, people who are upset about something are far, far more vocal than people content. People are far more likely to make a post and whine about something than make a post and praise something. That's why even with the most successful games in history, their forums are filled with nothing but vitriol... because the people who are actually content with the game are PLAYING the game, and the people not are whining about it.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

It's not about jealousy, it's about balance.

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Read two posts up.

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So the new skills increase the BRDs damage at the cost of having to stand still for a whopping 1.5s.

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It's not like the job is designed around things that don't get along with casting times like a steady stream of instant attacks and off-GCD procs, right? Oh wait...

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The cries of "I don't wanna be a caster" are all hyperbolic BS. 1.5s is nothing compared to casters. It's just a charge attack like in an action game.

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So the job goes from gameplay that is instant casts and off-GCD procs to everything having a cast time, but is not a caster...

By the way, charge attacks in action games can be charged and released while moving. Play a Megaman or Metroid game if you don't believe me.

I'm not main Bard and this is MY OPINION
Bard's playstyle is not mainly from song or freely move around.Its the flow of dealing damage.
I don't mind to stand still while dps but all those cast time interrupt the flow of using skills.

I really wish SE remove the cast time and increase overall dps just 5 or 10% when we're not moving.
Cast time is annoying for Bard.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Read two posts up.
It's not like the job is designed around things that don't get along with casting times like a steady stream of instant attacks and off-GCD procs, right? Oh wait...
So the job goes from gameplay that is instant casts and off-GCD procs to everything having a cast time, but is not a caster...

By the way, charge attacks in action games can be charged and released while moving. Play a Megaman or Metroid game if you don't believe me.

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Would you feel better if they renamed the "Cast Bar " to a "Charge Bar" or "Aim Bar" ? :P

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Originally Posted by Rikkustrife

How is it overpowered if we don't do more damage than the other classes?

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Please read the post of the person I was replying to, thank you. Plainly put, the suggestion isn't balanced at all. Consuming your own resource for increased damage sounds like a good idea on paper, but in practice, it's a liability and most likely cause Bards to be excluded. Now if we were to try to put something balanced that fits with the Bard want, it would be something like this;

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LV58 The Wanderer's Paeon (Cooldown: 70 seconds)
The next 5 Weaponskills will be Instant and have potency reduced by 20. Damage Over Time effects are unaffected.
Can only be used under the effect of Wanderer's Minuet.
Additional Effect: Critical hits will increase the stacks of Wanderer's Paeon up to a maximum of 5 stacks.
Duration: 60 seconds

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LV12 Bloodletter (Cooldown: 15 seconds)
Delivers an attack with a potency of 150.
Shares a recast timer with Rain of Death.
Additional Effect: Increases stacks of the Wanderer's Paeon.

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i'm just going to leave this here and leave

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

I really don't understand what BRD's are complaining about, BLM got a worse deal than BRD's and i don't see 500 threads on how crap BLM is.

i mean BLM got Enochian which is a pain in the ass to maintain in fights like Phantom ray in The Fractal Continuum.

Enochian - 30sec to 70sec duration with a recast of 60sec, has to be refreshed under Umbral ice with Blizzard IV

Wanderer's Minuet - infinite duration with recast of 15sec for the cost of mobility

i mean if you need you mobility for part of a fight TURN WM OFF

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

Would you feel better if they renamed the "Cast Bar " to a "Charge Bar" or "Aim Bar" ? :P

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If that were the case, I'd ask that the aim bar fill while you're moving. Possible slower than it would if you were standing still.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

Would you feel better if they renamed the "Cast Bar " to a "Charge Bar" or "Aim Bar" ? :P

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Just rolling my eyes since my "AIMED" shot deals a lot less damage than my instant shots. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

If that were the case, I'd ask that the aim bar fill while you're moving. Possible slower than it would if you were standing still.

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lol ive never seen an archer aiming while running around :P

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Originally Posted by Anzaman

Just rolling my eyes since my "AIMED" shot deals a lot less damage than my instant shots. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

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maye SE should rename all the BRD skills specially for you ,

id suggest the stuff like : "does less damage" , "does more damage" , "does lots of damage " :P

The bard play style blows.

Not focus on new songs, and more options blows.

Casting blows.

and last but not least, a dps doing weaker damage because they are support dps blows. Give us more tools to support with if that is the case, since outside of raiding the songs hardly get used. (I am one of the few rare ones that uses foe).


It is simple, common sense. When bards take a dps slot, they should do good dps or, they should get tools to make the group stronger. What type of bard is he that he only has like six songs? All this talk of the power of music, it is laughable. Not having songs that help in more ways is the real joke.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

maye SE should rename all the BRD skills specially for you ,

id suggest the stuff like : "does less damage" , "does more damage" , "does lots of damage " :P

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Err.. what? Think you missed the point.

Why should my Machinist carefully aim her shot, when it's going to hit less?

[Split Shot]: 1.5 sec cast, deals potency of 140 attack,
[Slug Shot]: instant cast, deals potency of 180 attack,
[Clean Shot]: instant cast, deals potency of 200 attack.

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Originally Posted by Anzaman

Why should my Bard or Machinist carefully aim her shot, when it's going to hit less?

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It doesn't. You're either ignoring or forgetting that the GCD exists. Shots under Gauss is 30% stronger.

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

i'm just going to leave this here and leave

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"If someone else has it bad or worse, you can't complain!"

Might just retire the bard if they plan to keep this "bowmage" gameplay in... such a shame.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

lol ive never seen an archer aiming while running around :P

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i neever seen some1 casting fire barehanded (flamethrower for machinist!!) , or summoning ifrit :P

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Originally Posted by ThanMazus

"If someone else has it bad or worse, you can't complain!"

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I would read up on enochian

if WM worked the same way as enochian, BRD's complaints would be ALOT worse than they are now

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...g_Minstrel.png
People need to learn to relax and do what real bards do. When in doubt fallow the bard primal, learn from the example of the lord thy God of all bards, do as he does and thou shalt find enlightenment and joy everlasting~ please, look forward to it.

They just need to add Ranger and Musketeer to the game, make them a full DPS and end this problem.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

The reason they fixed it... Also I don't know what you were smoking but bard last out of 6 dps by a large margin is not good DPS.

Focus on dots? WTF? Out of dps, bard has the fewest DoT even available to use... Now you're just making stuff up.

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There was no reason for the fix because towards the end of ARR stacking bards wasn't a common thing or particularly useful. The dps margin wasn't as large as it is now: bards do as low damage as a tank class whilst being mobile (i.e. not using WM). Bard was in a perfect spot and didn't need this change, hence my question.

Btw, AdamFyi quoted out of context so that might have caused the confusion about "good dps". Here's Cirgellon's whole paragraph to let you know what I was referring to: "I don't mind being support and I don't mind doing less damage than other classes. The damage can't be so low that we are almost useless (no WM right now) and I don't want cast times. That's all I ask for. Respectable damage while leaving the class to play like it always has." Bards had respectable/good enough dps in ARR but not anymore, as individuals are getting kicked if they play the mobile way (post #315).

Also about dots. Forgive me if I misunderstood how ninja and monk work, but other dps don't start their rotation by applying buffs and then dots (multiple) and continue by optimizing their dot uptime while using filler moves. Things like multidotting, snapshotting and dot clipping - I want those to be the core part of the rotation i.e the focus of the class I play because it's fun for me. Black mages can only put on one Thunder at a time and their focus is in optimal mp use for fire spells (they won't start multidotting in a fire phase). Dragoons have 2 dots but their rotation is based on combos, not dot management (they won't stop a combo to reapply a dot). Ninja and monk is the same as dragoon far as I an tell. The closest thing to a dot and priority based rotation next to bard and summoner, are healers dps'ing. Just because a class has dots doesn't mean its focus is on the dots.

Sometimes I feel like I'm spending more time explaining my points than making points on this forum. Sigh...

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

I really don't understand what BRD's are complaining about, BLM got a worse deal than BRD's and i don't see 500 threads on how crap BLM is.

i mean BLM got Enochian which is a pain in the ass to maintain in fights like Phantom ray in The Fractal Continuum.

Enochian - 30sec to 70sec duration with a recast of 60sec, has to be refreshed under Umbral ice with Blizzard IV

Wanderer's Minuet - infinite duration with recast of 15sec for the cost of mobility

i mean if you need you mobility for part of a fight TURN WM OFF

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The point is, BRDs were used to playing with a certain playstyle for almost 2 years. BLMs are expecting to be immobile because that's how it plays from the beginning, Enochian just embraces that further, while BRDs went from being one of the most mobile jobs to being immobile essentially over night. You play the entire game from ARR 2.0 to 3.0 and suddenly WM not only changes your rotation but it changes the entire playstyle of the job. I agree that something had to be done about their essentially unrivaled mobility to damage ratio, but it should have been done a bit more gracefully. Perfect example would be to take a few cues from Marksmanship Hunter in WoW (a sin I know!). Have maybe 2ish shots you have to actually stand still and cast, 1 being a maintenance buff/debuff shot you have to keep up every so often, and 1 being damage shot that's a short CD or procs from something else....boom done. Reduced mobility while still retaining the mobility playstyle with the other shots. That's just a rough draft, but I feel WM was not the right way to go about it. WM having to be cast was a disaster all on its own and removing the cast time does help indeed, but I still feel WM is as clunky of a solution as they could have come up with.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

They just need to add Ranger and Musketeer to the game, make them a full DPS and end this problem.

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There's no problem in BRD's dps though, they can potentially do over or just a little under DRG with both doing 1200+ in numbers. But they can also sing for TP/MP and choose to lower their dps to help others out so that they can keep going.

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

I would read up on enochian

if WM worked the same way as enochian, BRD's complaints would be ALOT worse than they are now

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Yes, because it would make no sense on bard
I liked enochian from what I read, it makes sense with how black mage has almost worked

AdamFyi, your suggestion could work, thank you for knowing how bard works compared to others who post with no idea what they are talking about.

People like Ageofwar just post nonsense, and there are many of them.

And Uberhaxed, dots are important since a crit dot will reset bloodletter cooldown, which is a huge thing for bards, so bards focus on dots more than most other jobs aside from arcanist's jobs

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Originally Posted by Rikkustrife

And Uberhaxed, dots are important since a crit dot will reset bloodletter cooldown, which is a huge thing for bards, so bards focus on dots more than most other jobs aside from arcanist's jobs

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They are important but unlike SMN, DoTs don't make up almost our whole playstyle is what I believe the person meant.

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

I would read up on enochian

if WM worked the same way as enochian, BRD's complaints would be ALOT worse than they are now

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As a BLM main in 2.1 through 2.55, I did read up on it. I decided I didn't like that either. Good assumptions on your part though~

The thing I don't think you're all quite grasping, and you might have realized this playing the high end content, but I think the direction they're taking classes and boss mechanics is phasing out the "requirement" of tp/mp regen songs(like how it was requirement for T8). Though most top teams may still bring a BRD but majority of my clears on content didn't require the BRD to play mp/tp songs.

If the "requirement" of that kind of support becomes less desirable, then the question of "well then should we sub out the brd/mch with someone who does more damage" comes to mind, and by giving brd/mch ways to do good damage, fixes that problem. They've added in a fix last week, and who knows, there may be more, though I don't know how much because I've seen some MCH's who do a great job and keep up with the rest of the DPS.

You still have the option to take the buff off, and move about and continue your rotation, then put it back on and get increased damage for your skills at the cost of having to stand still for a second before moving again. You have the tools now to keep up with the other DPS, and when the "requirement" of your tp/mp regen songs becomes not required, they won't have a reason to replace you for a supposed higher damage dealer because you're already doing good damage.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

They just need to add Ranger and Musketeer to the game, make them a full DPS and end this problem.

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I think you missed the whole explanation in the live letter where they said they will not increase dps without losing mobility. It's called balance. Had nothing to do with the support skills. The support skills just make the job required in raids.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Btw, AdamFyi quoted out of context so that might have caused the confusion about "good dps". Here's Cirgellon's whole paragraph to let you know what I was referring to: "I don't mind being support and I don't mind doing less damage than other classes. The damage can't be so low that we are almost useless (no WM right now) and I don't want cast times. That's all I ask for. Respectable damage while leaving the class to play like it always has." Bards had respectable/good enough dps in ARR but not anymore, as individuals are getting kicked if they play the mobile way (post #315).

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Yeah I didn't realize it was out of content. But the point was that they couldn't balance new content with the way bard was. All mechanics are trivialized by a completely mobile class. They just had the courtesy of increasing the damage (which was not needed since they still had support skills, which still make them required).