New glamour dress on a male (art)

Am I the only one that doesn't understand how altering gear to female>male is apparently impossible but male>female causes no problems? Can't they create a model for both like they must have done for every other gear in the game that isn't genderlocked?

No? Anyone else..?

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Originally Posted by Ymal

Am I the only one that doesn't understand how altering gear to female>male is apparently impossible but male>female causes no problems? Can't they create a model for both like they must have done for every other gear in the game that isn't genderlocked?

No? Anyone else..?

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I find it odd too. You would think needing to support breasts would be the harder transition with armor. I don't know anything about 3D modeling though, so who knows. Either way, I think it's a BS excuse lol.

hey guys, i hate to be a bit rude but cut out the random tangents and do not compare this to [insert horrible IRL thing here] it has happened once before and as the Moderator enkrateia said:

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

Greetings, all!

You may notice that the thread has gotten a bit slimmer due to moderation. If you would like to discuss gender-specific clothing or new gear that has been announced, you are welcome to do so in a non-derogatory and inflammatory manner. However, should this thread continue to choose to engage in a discussion that is derogatory or inflammatory, account actions may be issued and the thread may be closed. Please continue to discuss the original topic in a civil manner.

LGM Enkrateia

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If you want to keep putting up a case on cross dressing men or clothing equality PLEASE keep it civil, other wise this thread gets locked and your chances of getting equality in the dress goes down the loo.

(just posting this up here due to the fact i am seeing a repeating trend of posts from when this thread first got the chop.)

[QUOTE=kyuven;3011560] Snip /QUOTE]

It's not hard to realize "Bonding ceremony" is marriage. If the stockholders were going to leave because of men in dresses, they'd leave with all those skirts, the pareos, and other effeminate clothes men could wear. I really doubt they actually care.

US culture has expectations for their pop idols too, remember the whole Britney Spears incident and her caving in from the constant pressure? I'm sure Japan has celebrity tabloids as well, I'm sure Schadenfreude is something that happens in Japan as well.
Japan isn't a hivemind, there's plenty of people who participate and support subcultures, just as SE did with their addition of "Bonding ceremonies"
Subcultures are formed out of collective similar interests, particularly ones that aren't mainstream. I'm sure there's plenty of gay people in Japan who don't "Grow out of it", because again, they're not doing it to rebel, they just like people of the same sex.
That's the same sort of thing with folks in the US, those with more traditional conservative thoughts will see those apart of the subculture as folks who will "Grow out of it", turns out, I'm sure in plenty of cases, they don't.
Heck the model Kayo Satoh apparently got more famous after she told people that she was transgender.
What about all those middle-aged Japanese men making comics and cartoons or the anime industry in general? I'm sure Oda isn't looked too positively upon for making a living writing Shonen manga for young kids. Anime certainly isn't mainstream culture, look at the way people look at NEETs or Otakus, yet it's still a business people make money off of.

It's a dress and stockings, I'm not sure how it isn't a feminine outfit as I don't tend to see men in stockings or dresses that go to their mid thigh. Considering how those stockings are available, why aren't the fishnet ones? They're hardly any difference visually.
Those skirts in the game that are available aren't changed at all, the same could literally apply to every outfit in the game, SE just changes some of them on a whim.
Also, funny you bring up Kilts, take away the weird bag and belt, and it's literally the same cloth wrap.
Men can have several frames, I know lots of dudes who buy "women's" clothing simply because it fits their frame better, likewise, I know plenty of women with broad shoulders who end up buying men's shirts. Clothes is only gendered because it's made for the "generic man" or "generic woman" and made to fit that frame. It fits more often with those with men due to the way frames general go. You could make a dress that fits the "Generic male frame" without loosing all the things that are also on the "generic female frame" look at what the OP did for a fantastic example.

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

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You said "This game isn't made for fanservice" when this game is layers upon layers of fanservice of a variety of forms.

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Originally Posted by NozomiKei

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Ooh lovely! Nice job yet again, as a lovely and supporter of Roegadyn to the second highest degree, wonderful job.

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Originally Posted by R-Kine

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Again, "examine why you think something is ugly" is the key here, it's important, because a false sense of morality is commonly a reason for that. Seriously it's like looking at something like Oktoberfest and going "Oh that's just dumb" whenever I'm sure you participate in similar things that are "equally dumb". I honestly think the OP did a wonderful job of even making the dress work with the Roegadyn figure without dropping all senses of it as a dress. Is it really ridiculous to ask for this, when they've shown Hildebrand in the dress? Or made it so the Christmas set was wearable for both men and women? Or all those skirts and pareos? The key difference between that request and this request if you're asking them to make existing changes to gear that some people might wear already (And making it something SE can't and hasn't done yet), while this thread is asking SE to make the dress available for men, considering all the other situations where men have crossdress in the game before and now it suddenly looks like the Devs just don't want to do it this time for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Sorciechan

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Aeyis's point is very much so an extreme, but hardly a fallacy, it's "Both of these things have been the norm for thousands of years, and the US specifically has a huge and notable history with slavery that people tie them too, so saying "It's such a US thing" isn't a misnomer any more than saying "Slavery is a US thing" is" see my next paragraph.

The US has an incredible Hyper-masculine/Hyper-feminine phenomenon going on that's been going on for a long while, it's not exclusive to the US, but we definitely have some heavy and important issues in this country. Seriously, look at how many people freak out whenever they're boys who have long hair or wear pink, why? Because it's "Something only girls do!" when they ignore the fact that there's several cultures with men having long hair or that pink used to be a "boy's" color til (iirc) the 50's. Seriously, google the term "toxic masculinity" and read up a bit, it's not US specific, but it's very prominent in the US.

Gendered clothing has existed in cultures for a long while, though I wouldn't say thousands of years as people living in subsistence situations hardly have time to care about fashion and probably wore similar outfits to begin with, but that's been fluxing constantly, look at how heels became an upper class Men's wear thing to now something only women "Should" wear. Heck, look at that traditional belly dancer garb someone linked, note how similar the outfits look?

We're not getting your "man-dress" because people keep coming in the thread and going "Lol no, I don't like it so it shouldn't be a thing" without providing any substantial argument for their case outside of "I don't like it therefore it's morally wrong" for their reasoning.

Plus, you're the one saying "They probably failed history class" which is ad hominem, it's not like you don't use fallacies as well.

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Originally Posted by DracotheDragon

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Reasonable, though tangents aren't the problem it's people getting heated up and throwing insults at each other.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Slavery was also a worldwide thing that was the norm for thousands of years.

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This is why people are starting to get mad with comments like this.
Because you wanna compare SLAVERY and someone said Child Porn?
Wooooow, at the end of the day, it is clothes on a video game guy.
Just stop. I'm almost offended by this post.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

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He's not comparing gender clothes to slavery, he's comparing "Gendered clothes are such a US thing" to the claim "Slavery is such a US thing" which is something that people definitely do.
Why aren't you guys offended when the guy who said "Men wearing dresses is akin to some guy watching child porn" or the other one calling "Men who wear dresses are degenerates" but getting offended suddenly whenever someone gets offended at that statement?
It is just virtual clothes on a video game guy, so why are those comments okay, but those responding to them are not?

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

He's not comparing gender clothes to slavery, he's comparing "Gendered clothes are such a US thing" to the claim "Slavery is such a US thing" which is something that people definitely do.
Why aren't you guys offended when the guy who said "Men wearing dresses is akin to some guy watching child porn" or the other one calling "Men who wear dresses are degenerates" but getting offended suddenly whenever someone gets offended at that statement?
It is just virtual clothes on a video game guy, so why are those comments okay, but those responding to them are not?

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None of these comments are okay. Not one.
Everyone is literally at each others necks to prove points over clothes but no one is doing anything but hurting peoples feelings.
I'm honestly shocked how, hate to say, toxic this whole thread has become.

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Originally Posted by Sakei

Many will disagree with that :P

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I was totally Going to post that too in response to "A robe is not a dress" xD

But really, more options is alway better.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

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I'm just pointing out that when most people bring up "God this thread has become so hateful" they cite posts that point out some toxic behavior while entirely ignoring the other ones (At least until they're brought up) which are far more toxic (IMO), like note how one person said "This is why you guys aren't getting your man-dresses". I'm not sure what's so toxic about bringing up slavery, it's an extreme for sure but I think a lot of people in this thread are misinterpreting what that guy meant. He never said "Slavery and gendered clothing are the same thing" nor did he say "You're basically saying you'd love to enslave people, kay~". Can you explain to me, please, why what he said is so toxic?
It's had it's issues, but I really don't see how that guy is at the other person's neck for making a misunderstood statement (Whether that statement is misunderstood on their end or the readers I'm leaving ambiguous), it's not really an insult or them being rude. Either way, they've done some pruning in the past with this thread, and while I haven't gone back to check, I'm fairly sure I know which posts would be pruned at a cursory glance.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

None of these comments are okay. Not one.
Everyone is literally at each others necks to prove points over clothes but no one is doing anything but hurting peoples feelings.
I'm honestly shocked how, hate to say, toxic this whole thread has become.

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That was probably the goal of the creator of this topic. He is just wanting to bring politics and gender identity issues into a game. He can make a female toon at any stage of his gaming career and have those outfits but wants to bring politics into a game.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

That was probably the goal of the creator of this topic. He is just wanting to bring politics and gender identity issues into a game. He can make a female toon at any stage of his gaming career and have those outfits but wants to bring politics into a game.

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Because the way you look in a video game is totally politics.

Right.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

That was probably the goal of the creator of this topic. He is just wanting to bring politics and gender identity issues into a game. He can make a female toon at any stage of his gaming career and have those outfits but wants to bring politics into a game.

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Starting a whole new characther as a different gender or fantasia-ing your characther to another gender isn't a solution. It is ignoring the issue entirely.

This thread is getting really far from the originale point. Why not make things easy? If you like or agree show your support, if you don't like or don't care use your limited daily post into something that interest you more. This way instead of useless discussion we may have a clearer view of "numbers". Good night

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Originally Posted by Greven

This thread is getting really far from the originale point. Why not make things easy? If you like or agree show your support, if you don't like or don't care use your limited daily post into something that interest you more. This way instead of useless discussion we may have a clearer view of "numbers". Good night

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i agree with you, i fear the moderator may have to lock this so that likes will be the only deciding factor in this.. reading eh comments that came out after the slight warning it seems people wish for this thread to be locked or deleted :c

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Originally Posted by Galdous

That was probably the goal of the creator of this topic. He is just wanting to bring politics and gender identity issues into a game. He can make a female toon at any stage of his gaming career and have those outfits but wants to bring politics into a game.

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I'm pretty sure the point of the thread was that female characters getting every outfit and male characters getting gender-locked out of some is lame and there are quite a few people who think the outfit would look good on guys.

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Originally Posted by Sorciechan

Thank you. I was just gonna point that out. But, I was beginning to wonder whether I should argue with someone who's prejudice against Americans is so that he inaccurately blames the country for a style that lasted before America was even much of one.

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I said it was American-centric, I didn't blame America for it. I'm laughing really hard at "prejudice against Americans" though.

OMG ppl need to stop the crazy hate and random crap. I'm in shock this threads still around but let me point something out to ppl you want men in dresses yes? some don't yes? then let SE pic as it's up to them but if you think about it really are guys wearing dresses norm? no not really how many jobs out there will let men wear a dress? how many schools will let guys show up in a full on dress? not many if any. The fact is it's not the norm now if you go to a pride day parade then sure it's very norm but you can't push your ways of thinking or life on the world deal with it and move on.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

:eek:

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I've already acknowledge this, Sam. This ENTIRE thread turned into a cesspool. My post was for the entirety of this thread not just Aeyis's.
Pardon me for gettin' a bit irritated at Aeyis's post. Apologies for misunderstandings....Still....
If you'd like to make a point, please do not bring extreme's like that or the Child thing into it.
This WILL BE my final post and I'll reiterate some stuff and things then be on my way, seriously this time, and I suggest a lot of folks leave before it gets worse.

People honestly need to stop and think before they post. People are hurting each others feelings. We are human behind the computer. I am just appalled at everything here.
Just both sides are being really bad though:
If someone happens to feel uncomfortable they are a bigot, and that's wrong to say.
If someone likes to be a male on here or is a male and wanna wear female clothes, and someone attacks them and calls them degenerates, that is also very wrong.
Opinions are like a butt, everyone has one, but no one needs to see it, especially if it is nasty as hell lol...but when you really go out your way to hurt someones feelings.
Just stop, you're bullying them and I'll report you so damn fast like I've been doing. [Not you Sam, the other posts I've seen on here.]

Skeith-Adeline is a good example on page 26 iirc of my examples above; he doesn't feel comfortable seeing men in dresses but will not go out his way to shun them but then whatshisname indirectly calls him a bigot. Welp, that's one way to piss someone off. He didn't even respond to that hateful but someone else could of.

Just going to say again: I am 100% okay with everyone wearing everything, it's ultimately up to the dev's though. Enough CIVIL feedback will probably make them continue to think hard about this, but SE tries to please everyone for the most part so just don't give up voicing your wants. Ignore the real jerks and report them, don't fall for the traps because you'll end up permaban. You just won't get anywhere with people using the Ad Hoenhiem fallacy and crap all day either and throwing insults.
You've done an excellent job with your work OP. Keep calm, and clothes for all!

With that, have a nice one folks.
http://33.media.tumblr.com/7949f8321...yWX1qdlkyg.gif

I really don't want to support this negative discussion that's about but I'd like to point out how your post makes no sense, SakuraMidori.

How many jobs will let anybody wear this: http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...7ced2c584c.jpg

How many schools will let someone show up in this: http://i.imgur.com/MA75sPg.jpg

Pretty sure this isn't the norm at a gay pride parade: http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...e6b8c4386a.png

My point is that this game is not real life. The point of this thread is that male characters currently get unequal treatment in regards to number of outfits not whether or not they look good on any one character.

Please keep my thread civil, are worked hard on that art.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

That was probably the goal of the creator of this topic. He is just wanting to bring politics and gender identity issues into a game. He can make a female toon at any stage of his gaming career and have those outfits but wants to bring politics into a game.

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OP is actually female and enjoys dressing her character up that way. She's unhappy with the severe lack of glamour options that male characters are given when compared to their female counterparts, as are many of us.

Nice try, though.

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Originally Posted by NozomiKei

Please keep my thread civil, worked hard on that art.

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And your art was very well done but your act wrong this game dose follow quite a bit of real life such as real holidays and some real events and maybe it's not norm in Japan for a ton of guys to wear dresses. I mean norm is what the game creators see as normal so just because it's a game dose not mean anything is ok btw iv seen ppl wear stuff like that last pic at a pride day parade {there not all called gay pride btw as gay has 0 to do with crossdressing } but yea

I dislike the argument that is "want to wear this? roll a female character". I dislike the design of the female characters in this game. None of them appeal to me at all. So it makes me feel a bit left out that some of the "female" glamour is not shared yet all of the "male" glamour is. Not every male character wants to dress their dude in a dress/skirt and that's fine, but what's not fine is the lack of options should they want to. We already have at least two skirts available to us (the plain skirt and the revealing flame elite's loincloth) and even Hildebrand was allowed to wear a dress (granted it was only cause we could laugh at it) so what's really one or a dozen more? At the very least, I hope SE takes this into consideration and stops with the "female only glamours".

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Originally Posted by Ymal

Am I the only one that doesn't understand how altering gear to female>male is apparently impossible but male>female causes no problems? Can't they create a model for both like they must have done for every other gear in the game that isn't genderlocked?

No? Anyone else..?

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THIS. Have wondered about this myself a few pages back. And basically been wondering about it ever since I first heard/read that explanation. No knowledge about 3D design here, but to my logic, changing things is changing things, no matter the direction, there's work to be done..... so yeah.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

Long post

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I get what you're saying, and I completely agree about remaining civil, but I don't view this situation as two sides that are bullying each other. The nature of this thread is a person addressing the devs by stating "Hey, I noticed that other group is getting more options than I am even though we all pay the same, could I get those options too"?

I think things take a negative turn by default when someone enters just to say "Well I don't like you so you shouldn't have it, even if I never see you." I appreciate trying to remain civil but the reality is that we live in a world with others, it's not reasonable to expect no one to ever do something you don't like. I don't like watching people play golf. Do you know what I do? I spend my energy watching other things, as opposed to going out of my way to approach golfers who have done nothing to me to tell them "I don't like you playing golf so you shouldn't be allowed to". No matter how nicely you try to word it it will always come off as self-absorbed. Those people have no obligation to change innocent behaviors for your approval. (Not you specifically, but you get my point)

If I could mix the bottom part of the dress with top piece I'm using now that would be kind of amazing.

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Originally Posted by NozomiKei

I really don't want to support this negative discussion that's about but I'd like to point out how your post makes no sense, SakuraMidori.

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I felt the main point was more that people here need to chill and accept that there are people who do like the idea of men in dresses, and people who don't like the idea; just let SE decide what they want to do.


I wasn't taking notes, but I'd like to point out that from what I saw in this thread, there was prejudice from a couple of people who don't like the idea; and a lot of defensiveness and maybe bigotry from some people who do like the idea, directed even at people who just stated they don't like it (and even some people who do like it), without the prejudice.

This is obviously a really sensitive topic, but certain people need to take a step back and read opinions without anxiety/hostility/bias to color statements in ways they probably weren't meant to be read. Like I'll see some people say they don't like the idea, and someone reads it as "you shouldn't have it." Some opinions are just opinions, not necessarily anything negative or even an attempt at debate.


I just feel sorry for the designer. They were probably like, I made something AWESOMEthisissopretty! *___* and thought everyone would be happy too.
Instead, they're probably hearing how it's causing trouble and has placed the game at the forefront of a hotly debated global conflict on gender, sexuality, equality, societal norms, and cows.
"Never make something overtly masculine or feminine again! Design everything for lalafells first, and then expand from there."

And elsewhere: "We must be fair. Add package jiggle to the game."

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Originally Posted by Symon17

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Yes but the op is asking the dev team to change something they don't like yes? there not just asking for more male outfits but asking the development team to make dresses for males. So lets say the development team likes only girls to wear dresses well it's innocent of them to think that way right? so by going out of your way to say it's wrong or not right is the same as going up to ppl who play golf and saying i don't like it stop or change it. SE never had guys in dresses in ff ARR did they? so why must they add it? why is it unfair? if you want more male outfits i'm sure SE add them but what the op is asking is far more and crosses that line of what can offend others so if it's not broke why fix it?

I thought this was a game, not a place for an identity crisis.

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Originally Posted by Higashikata

I thought this was a game, not a place for an identity crisis.

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It can be two things.

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Originally Posted by synesthetic

I just feel sorry for the designer. They were probably like, I made something AWESOMEthisissopretty! *___* and thought everyone would be happy too.
Instead, they're probably hearing how it's causing trouble and has placed the game at the forefront of a hotly debated global conflict on gender, sexuality, equality, societal norms, and cows.

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To be honest, if they wanna be fair, the designer should not be in hot water. It's whoever decided that once again it was ok to gender-lock clothes for females, and making a "counterpart" of it unisex. It's not a first, but even when they did it first, there was an uproar about it. They should have learned from it, it just seems like they didn't.

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

Yes but the op is asking the dev team to change something they don't like yes? there not just asking for more male outfits but asking the development team to make dresses for males.

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For one, we should stop assuming the dev team doesn't like males in dresses - they never commented on that issue (or did they?), so we have no way of knowing. And if jumping to conclusions is bad in one matter, I'd say it's just as bad in any other as well.
For two, I do think OP's point is simply to show that a female dress does actually work on a male and it doesn't take much to change it (but feel free to correct me, Nozomi) - since, y'know, the reason we were given for males not getting female outfits is that it's too hard to convert. Which (apparently) does not come off as convincing at all, for many of us.



DEAR SE, PLEASE STOP TREATING THE BLOODY FORUM AS IF IT WAS TWITTER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

It can be two things.

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I must have missed the "woman in man's body" option when I selected my character's gender then.

Ignoring the rest of the thread, just popping in to say I like the drawings of your character in the dress, very well done. If I played a male character I'd totally wear it, lol.

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

Yes but the op is asking the dev team to change something they don't like yes? there not just asking for more male outfits but asking the development team to make dresses for males. So lets say the development team likes only girls to wear dresses well it's innocent of them to think that way right? so by going out of your way to say it's wrong or not right is the same as going up to ppl who play golf and saying i don't like it stop or change it.

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I don't remember ever addressing the developers to tell them they can't do anything. The OP asked them to implement something like that and if they don't want to they're completely within their rights to not implement it. I don't see the harm in asking, so I gave my support.

Also consider, if you'd like to flip it on me, you'd need an example of me actively trying to force someone to play in a way that meets my personal approval. Again, this is not the same as asking for more options, which was the point of my previous post.

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

SE never had guys in dresses in ff ARR did they? so why must they add it?

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Some quick research would find many examples of different dresses available to males already in game. Not to mention essentially being forced to wear them as a caster (though that's another issue entirely). It's a convenient hypothetical, but I don't see enough evidence to assume the devs have any strong aversion to effeminate looking male outfits.

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

so if it's not broke why fix it?

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You don't consider it broke, the OP is of a different opinion. That question assumes yours is the only one.

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Originally Posted by Higashikata

I must have missed the "woman in man's body" option when I selected my character's gender then.

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It's just clothing.

It's not like clothing changes your gender or sex. It's just an unwritten social contract on what we expect to be acceptable for our own time and culture. The only strength it has is people's compliance with it as it stands.
Frankly, I don't see any rational reason why it shouldn't be at least allowed. I get there might be technical, time, and money issues that could pose as a solid detractor. But I don't quite get the fevered offence to the idea. (Though I expect a lot of it is just reactionary from the heated defense on the subject I see thrown around. Seriously, someone who's uncomfortable with something they rarely see makes them a "bigot"? That's hardly fair. It's human nature to be wary of what appears off kilter from expected standing. That's just survival instinct.)

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Originally Posted by BreathlessTao

For two, I do think OP's point is simply to show that a female dress does actually work on a male and it doesn't take much to change it (but feel free to correct me, Nozomi)

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That was precisely it! I wanted to show that it doesn't look atrocious on males in case just seeing that would encourage people to support equal treatment.

To get around all of the negative debate here I'd like to give an example that isn't so fraught with the issues this one is:

Imagine that they announced the new glamours and presented them as males get a wooden barrel to wear and females get a potato sack. Suddenly it's announced that the females can now also equip the barrel but the potato sack is still female exclusive. I happen to think that my male character would look amazing in a potato sack and feel slighted because just because I picked a male character I now have one less glamour option (plus it was one I thought I'd personally wear). This on top of the fact that just months ago they released a cardboard box for males and a trash bag for females and when both sides protested against the gender locking they made the cardboard box unisex but left the trash bag female only.

Hopefully that hypothetical (I think that's what it's called) helps you all take a step back from the issue and see it for what it is.

... Okay... All Lalas totally need potato sacks now... I want that xD

At the end of the day it's up to SE if they say heyy!! guys can wear dresses and such hooray!!!!!!!! and that be that nothing anyone can do but. If SE don't make the dresses for males then oh well get over it sure the op is not saying this them self. But many ppl do act like this or go with the whole SE is evil because such and such we all remember the first vday event all the crying because the men did not have dresses and other events like weddings. That's why there is male and female {they are not the same and do not wear or get the same outfits} why can't females wear the male starting gear? why can't our swim suits look alike? a world where everything's the same http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hub/108471/f...g-the-same.jpg Well there's not much fun. Point? we pick what we play as knowing full well everything will not be the same

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

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A world where I'm allowed to dress as I want sounds more fun than a world that restricts the way I choose to express myself.

Just because someone is given a clothing option doesn't mean you're going to see every single character wearing it. More choices means more variety, not less.

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Originally Posted by Calypsx

A world where I'm allowed to dress as I want sounds more fun than a world that restricts the way I choose to express myself.

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Ditto can we all walk around nude? in what world can you act dress or not dress {nudest} how you like? there is always something going to restrict you a bit

Even though I find robes to look hideous on males, OP is 100% right. If females get male gears, males must get female gears. Equality has to be...equal. NO matter the reason why you want a male character to wear a dress. You may like to wear dresses or maybe you want to pretend to be a detective under cover. :rolleyes:

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