Titan Extreme is NOT Fun

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Originally Posted by Vulpix

Can someone tell me what a tank and healer should do during the adds phase? I've seen the main tank doing Titan die during the adds phase constantly in pug games. Is he supposed to pop a cooldown? Or is the healer not healing him fast enough?

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Yeah the main tank will get 2 Mountain Buster around the adds period, so it's very important to keep tank topped, which is tricky because healer also need to dodge bombs + landsides. But healer should have time to top everyone up before the bomb appear, and also give tank a single heal after landslide appear and before run off to dodge bombs.

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Originally Posted by Zakarath85

Stop crying, Titan Extreme is easy and fun. If youre shit and cant handle it then go practise until you CAN. Extreme modes are there cause we WANT challanging content, casuals/randoms who lack skill and gear should stay away from it until youve gained appropriate skill to beat harder content.

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Or simply "dodge" such harder content, if you get my meaning... :P

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Originally Posted by Vulpix

Can someone tell me what a tank and healer should do during the adds phase? I've seen the main tank doing Titan die during the adds phase constantly in pug games. Is he supposed to pop a cooldown? Or is the healer not healing him fast enough?

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Healers and all range DPS should go to 6'oclock. DPS should not attack until the offtank has hate on both adds (4-5 seconds). Range + healers should stay at 6'oclock to bait the landslide, moving to 5'oclock bomb. After the 6'oclock bomb explodes, immediately go back to where that bomb was (before your five o'clock bomb goes off). That's the easiest strategy and what my farm group does.

As a WHM main. I HATE TITAN.

I hate how it makes me rage at others. For every mistake they make because it screws up my extremely strict healing routine that is extremely hard to deviate from. Or just fall out and cause problems with our DPS and thus confirm wipe. Especially if more then 1 get hit outside "standard" damage periods.
I dislike how people suddenly lag stop for 1 second, die and suddenly pop up outside the Weigh of Land area.
I dislike how I have done Titan Ex 40 runs and never completed it. Just a single mistake from anyone potentially wipes the party.
I dislike that in my server, Jap teams are now going ilvl 80 JP Only. And good Eng team, are going Only looking for experienced cleared members, also ilvl 80.
I dislike how I am level ilvl85 and get stuck with ilvl 70~ people doing Titan that I cannot formula how they passed Titan HM. And while it was not an issue for me before, it is becoming one now.
I dislike how I starting to rage at FC members, LS members, PUGs for any and every small mistake. And start seeing all my faults and other faults and start getting pissed of with my/their need to "L2P' in any aspects of FF14. Because now I compare all their/my play in if they can do Titan Ex or not.
I dislike how FC members and LS members that passed it are most seldom keen to help. While FC and LS members that have not done so and have no clue the Titan ex rotation jump at the chance to do it. And then I have to patiently for then xx time go forth and wipe with them.
I dislike now, I mark FC and LS members on whether they can potentially help me clear Titan ex, and if I see members that cannot help or are way worst them me. I start finding excuses to leave.
I dislike now that I find it takes more motivation to help others, because why should I keep on helping others when people do not want to help me.
I dislike that now I play FF14 with a level of piss-off-ness that just was never there before.
Also I dislike that my static group was busy in December, and as I wanted to do it. I had to pug DF, PF, beg. And then now I am back in wiping in Garuda while they learn it. I dislike that I dislike this.

All in all, I HATE TITAN and if this is the way SE wants to move the community towards, I got to say, such content will burn the community to the ground. I might be more high strung then others (I do not think so). I just being more open about what Titan is causing me to become ingame.

Even worst then Titan HM. Titan Ex has become a gated wall between the hardcore with good static groups and the rest of us. Casual Hardcore and real casuals included.
Between the younger twitch friendly crowd and the older lesser reflect crowd. Between people with good internet and no connection issues, and with people that have latency, lag, dc-ing issues.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

Healers and all range DPS should go to 6'oclock. DPS should not attack until the offtank has hate on both adds (4-5 seconds). Range + healers should stay at 6'oclock to bait the landslide, moving to 5'oclock bomb. After the 6'oclock bomb explodes, immediately go back to where that bomb was (before your five o'clock bomb goes off). That's the easiest strategy and what my farm group does.

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The DPS and healers know where to position, but I'm asking about the tank/healer strategy for that portion.

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Originally Posted by Arcaloid

Yeah the main tank will get 2 Mountain Buster around the adds period, so it's very important to keep tank topped, which is tricky because healer also need to dodge bombs + landsides. But healer should have time to top everyone up before the bomb appear, and also give tank a single heal after landslide appear and before run off to dodge bombs.

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That sounds really tricky to time.

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Originally Posted by ArtEmisPalmecia

It's like reading forums from XIV:1.0.
The "elites" are self entitled because they have gotten so use to working with server lag, they think it is "normal" and it keeps the "scrubs" off their game.

Hint: Your wrong, and you are the minority. Shocking, I know... I hope us"casuals" ruin this game for you, because honestly, the forums and the in-game community would be a lot less toxic with you gone.

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Right, and above all we would get fewer "lectures" on how we should play the game or else return to WoW (by the way, I don't need to return as I am still playing it).

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Originally Posted by Vulpix

The DPS and healers know where to position, but I'm asking about the tank/healer strategy for that portion.

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Honestly, I've solo healed it a few times and the strategy stays the same. Cure II + SoS on the MT while the offtank is getting the adds. One medica II just to cure the AOE damage the party got from titan/adds, then divine seal + cures to top off whoever needs it.

After the the bombs, ranged+healers stay stacked at six'oclock for plumes. By the time plumes hit, the adds are usually dead/near dead.

Too bad you aren't in Gilgamesh. I'd run it with you just for a visual aspect.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

Honestly, I've solo healed it a few times and the strategy stays the same. Cure II + SoS on the MT while the offtank is getting the adds. One medica II just to cure the AOE damage the party got from titan/adds, then divine seal + cures to top off whoever needs it.

After the the bombs, ranged+healers stay stacked at six'oclock for plumes. By the time plumes hit, the adds are usually dead/near dead.

Too bad you aren't in Gilgamesh. I'd run it with you just for a visual aspect.

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Noah, can you do a healer guide for Titan Ex, pretty please.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

Honestly, I've solo healed it a few times and the strategy stays the same. Cure II + SoS on the MT while the offtank is getting the adds. One medica II just to cure the AOE damage the party got from titan/adds, then divine seal + cures to top off whoever needs it.

After the the bombs, ranged+healers stay stacked at six'oclock for plumes. By the time plumes hit, the adds are usually dead/near dead.

Too bad you aren't in Gilgamesh. I'd run it with you just for a visual aspect.

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Originally Posted by gadenp

Noah, can you do a healer guide for Titan Ex, pretty please.

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This please. I've been with pretty decent pugs in Party Finder, but most healers + tanks have difficulty due to the damage spike during the adds phase. Titan gets a damage buff thanks to the adds right? Does your tank use any CDs at all?

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Originally Posted by gadenp

Noah, can you do a healer guide for Titan Ex, pretty please.

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I can't tell if this comment is rich with sarcasm, but I'll humor you on what our farm always does for 1-shots: Have a QB.

The QB will do the following on a VOIP:

-Say what the next attack in the rotation will be. Example: "Double plumes are next"
-Where and when to stack. Example: "Everyone stack on me at 6'oclock" or "Stay at 6 to bait the landslide" or "Super bomb, stack at 1'oclock and prepare to move left for plumes".

They should also call people out "___ you need to stack tighter".

If everyone is dodging everything the fight is really really easy on healers. I only know it from a white mage POV, but cure III when we're stacked during stomps (followed by a medica II if needed) and a medica II after gaol's are broken keeps the party safe the entire time. Otherwise, it's just focusing on the main tank.

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Originally Posted by Vulpix

This please. I've been with pretty decent pugs in Party Finder, but most healers + tanks have difficulty due to the damage spike during the adds phase. Titan gets a damage buff thanks to the adds right? Does your tank use any CDs at all?

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The tank will usually do a sentinel if PLD. Warriors usually don't even need to pop anything. Pre emptive cure I's and II's (since you KNOW when mb is coming that phase) makes keeping the tank up really easy if he isn't being one shot due to how many debuffs he has. Try to time tank swapping so you'll have as little debuffs from the boss on the tank as possible.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

I can't tell if this comment is rich with sarcasm ...

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Err no sarcasm involved. I just really want all and any advise. If I cannot control how 7 other people in my party play. I will definitely want to ensure that I play Titan at the highest level of gameplay I can possibly do.

If a QB is not possible due to playing with pugs. What else is involved. From what I read, I know now to stand at 6' oclock bomb at add area. So where does the rest of dps stand? Where are the adds pulled too? During super bomb, which is the best bomb that healer stand and dps kill? Also during this super bomb dps period, how to not get weight of land spawn where dps is still killing bomb? Or will it definitely spawn there and dps have to work around it? So many questions ...

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

I can't tell if this comment is rich with sarcasm, but I'll humor you on what our farm always does for 1-shots: Have a QB.

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Originally Posted by gadenp

Err no sarcasm involved. I just really want all and any advise. If I cannot control how 7 other people in my party play. I will definately want to ensure that I play Titan at the highest level of gameplay I can possibly do.

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I think Noah has been poisoned by the negativity in this forum already. :o Jokes aside, I've managed to know some party finder people who know how to dodge but have no idea how to heal through the adds phase. That's very helpful, I can probably make a macro or something to alert MBs.

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Originally Posted by gadenp

<snip>Even worst then Titan HM. Titan Ex has become a gated wall between the hardcore with good static groups and the rest of us. Casual Hardcore and real casuals included.
Between the younger twitch friendly crowd and the older lesser reflect crowd. Between people with good internet and no connection issues, and with people that have latency, lag, dc-ing issues.

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Well said. Why companies make such design choices in a MMO game will always beat me. There's a game which went to 12 million subscriptions just because everyone could play and have fun in it, from kids to fighter pilots to middle-aged hardcore raiders to grannies with hand arthritis (true). I have been in raid groups where ALL these types were represented...

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Originally Posted by Goodberry

Well said. Why companies make such design choices in a MMO game will always beat me. There's a game which went to 12 million subscriptions just because everyone could play and have fun in it, from kids to fighter pilots to middle-aged hardcore raiders to grannies with hand arthritis (true). I have been in raid groups where ALL these types were represented...

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To be honest turn 1 to 4 of Coil does not require the amount of dodging Titan EX requires. One can have an awesome group that downs T1-4 without even batting an eyelid, but I'm not surprised if said group can't down Titan EM.

Back in my day, when you fell in lava.. YOU DIED.

None of this "10 dmg.. 10 dmg.. 10 dmg.." nonsense.

Stop complaining about dungeon difficulty.

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Originally Posted by gadenp

Err no sarcasm involved. I just really want all and any advise. If I cannot control how 7 other people in my party play. I will definately want to ensure that I play Titan at the highest level of gameplay I can possibly do.

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With SoS I've never even gotten close to stealing hate from the main tank when healing. This includes preemptively casting cures in anticipation of MB. You should never have a problem with MP in this fight as long as people aren't dying. And even then, with two healers you should be okay. Just try not to medica II before or immediately after the adds spawn if you don't have SoS as you can cause a wipe on the raid if the OT can't re-establish hate.

Another tip: When the platform is still pretty large, never go past the yellow inner circle when you're being gaol'd. If the DPS gets titan to his next phase while this is happening, you have a chance of just falling off the cliff if you went beyond the yellow! Always aim for the bottom of the yellow center. :)

Oh, and divine sealing for the cure III's is amazing during stomp and after jump (preemptively cast it, of course).

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Originally Posted by Rekujen

Back in my day, when you fell in lava.. YOU DIED.

None of this "10 dmg.. 10 dmg.. 10 dmg.." nonsense.

Stop complaining about dungeon difficulty.

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Please go back and play those "in your day" games. Thanks.

And oh, thanks for posting this useful comment. Know that it has brighten my day and illuminated my life.

Now I just know I can take on Titan with a new PUG and just no die. Playing 100x time better then ever before! Really +1.

I play an i88 dragoon, and I know this fight by heart. I have managed to get to the second set of adds, however, I can not seem to be with a group that can clear this fight. I have tried playing with my friends and my free company to clear the fight, however, I spare them when I die from the plumes. I know when every plume will spawn so I specifically stop attacking and prepare to move, but even when I begin moving the second I see the plumes I will still die from them; furthermore, it is most annoying to find my character dead way outside of the plume's area of effect. This makes me upset that I can't complete the content and progress because SE still has not fixed whatever problems should have been fixed a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by KazerD

I play an i88 dragoon, and I know this fight by heart. I have managed to get to the second set of adds, however, I can not seem to be with a group that can clear this fight. I have tried playing with my friends and my free company to clear the fight, however, I spare them when I die from the plumes. I know when every plume will spawn so I specifically stop attacking and prepare to move, but even when I begin moving the second I see the plumes I will still die from them; furthermore, it is most annoying to find my character dead way outside of the plume's area of effect. This makes me upset that I can't complete the content and progress because SE still has not fixed whatever problems should have been fixed a long time ago.

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Seems like the biggest boss fight for you is latency, not Titan itself.

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Originally Posted by Vulpix

Seems like the biggest boss fight for you is latency, not Titan itself.

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Which is a shame when I just upgraded my service from 15mbps to 50mbps hoping that the issue would be solved. But, it seems to be the issue and I can't get away from it.

after finally geting my ex weapon heres my 2 cents.
titan took a whole week for me to find a party and beat it. garuda took 1 day. ifrit took 4 hours.
esentialy this fight is completely broken in my opinion. why? simply because the developers implemented a design which their system cannot acommodate (latency issues/cannot dodge properly). now before you say it is my internet consider that i was mainly playing with jp players. japan has the best internet in the world as far as i know. so if even they cannot dodge this how can you?

so what do you have to do in order to get that clear? esentialy you have to cheat the encounter. you have to memorize every plume every landslide every bomb patern. you have to memorize exactly when these come you have to anticipate them and pre dodge.
oh yeah you also have to find 7 other people who can do the same exact thing. this is the hardest part.

also use sprint.

From the perspective of someone with good latency(About 65 ms to the server) I actually find the fight to be pretty fun. The encounter is tuned such that "raw reaction" is just barely not good enough to avoid the fastest mechanic(plumes). As such your group needs to manage these in a way that makes them more predictable and you need to be expecting them.

Now, for a player with higher ping the only way to clear this encounter is to move ahead of time. I think I could clear this encounter in higher latencies(upwards of 200ms+) because I do have his rotation memorized -- but the learning process would be much, much, much more frustrating.

This type of reaction based play should really be handled client-side instead of server-side if you're expecting a global population to play your game on servers in exactly 2 different locations.

I remember when Titan hard mode was actually hard. Extreme will be that way eventually, just get used to it.

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Originally Posted by Riv

I remember when Titan hard mode was actually hard. Extreme will be that way eventually, just get used to it.

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Play Titan with everyone lvl 50 gear it will be hard again. And bring back the stupid inbuilt delay, that they reduced. Also go torrent some large file and make sure it take more then 90% of your internet causing you random lag. That should do it.

This whole thread reminded me of an awesome analysis video on video game difficulty and why this games idea of it is so messed up and frustrating while so many other "difficult" games are so widely praised and celebrated like Dark Souls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs

Yes we've been over that video, it is hogwash.

Obviously haven't read the entire thread, but here is one thought (about FFXIV in general): the difficulty is misguided. I love that hard fights exist, but many are ruthless from beginning to end. They severely punish even slight slip-ups, and in a way that makes recovery exceedingly difficult, if not impossible.

This is unlike, say, FFXI. I never had to maintain lightning reflexes for extended periods there - the fights were very challenging, but forgiving for slight reflex mistakes. You needed everyone to know the process of the fight, but didn't need perfection.

I'm a math instructor, so I'll use a classroom analogy - FFXI and other team-based games I've played demanded everyone have conceptual understanding (at most) to pass, bad gear notwithstanding. FFXIV requires the whole class to avoid screwing up a single negative sign on an exam. It's artificial difficulty that punishes slight mistakes just as badly as not understanding the battle mechanics. It needs adjusting.

it's an extreme mode fight, of coz its gonna punish mistakes heavily. If you want to win then the whole team must be on their A game, even if it means anticipating and moving beforehand or cheating with a spreadsheet, to be honest the timing of puddles are easier to anticipate compared to hard mode. I play on a 2 year old laptop with a 300ms connection, my reaction time isn't consider good either and i could still dodge puddles on reaction after doing it x number of times.

The only advise i can give is get a static going, once you've done enough times with the same group of people it will start clipping and you'll clear it eventually.

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Originally Posted by gadenp

Err no sarcasm involved. I just really want all and any advise. If I cannot control how 7 other people in my party play. I will definitely want to ensure that I play Titan at the highest level of gameplay I can possibly do.

If a QB is not possible due to playing with pugs. What else is involved. From what I read, I know now to stand at 6' oclock bomb at add area. So where does the rest of dps stand? Where are the adds pulled too? During super bomb, which is the best bomb that healer stand and dps kill? Also during this super bomb dps period, how to not get weight of land spawn where dps is still killing bomb? Or will it definitely spawn there and dps have to work around it? So many questions ...

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1.) Melee DPS and Off tank has to tank adds on west or east side, the rest of the party (ranged, caster, healer) must stack on the south, first bomb spawn pattern is North South East West, second bomb spawn is NW, SW, NE, SE. Unlike the old bombs, these bombs explode whenever they spawn first, not last.
2.) hate on adds can be an issue here, if you have shroud then use it.
3.) wait for the 3 way landslide, when it comes shift to left or right side.
4.) once the bomb on your original location (south or east or west) has exploded, immediately shift back.
5.) All the moving and dodging must be done WHILE killing adds/healing the party, it's best to finish off the adds right after the 2nd bomb explodes because puddles will come immediately after.
6.) dodge the puddles (thats why everyone other than melee DPS and off tank must stack, so puddles aren't all over the place)
7.) Off tank must take titan hate because by then Main tank will already have 2 stacks of debuff.

on the super bombs, people tend to gather on the south but to be honest, any bomb on the edge is fine as long as you coordinate everyone on it. There will be puddles when you are bursting down the bomb, so EVERYONE must stack and move out at the same time to avoid it , this is a strict DPS check if your party can't dodge and kill it in time it's pretty much a wipe.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Yes we've been over that video, it is hogwash.

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Care to explain your reasoning behind this response? To me, that video made a lot of sense. There is a big difference between making a fight fun-challenging and annoyingly brutal. Titan HM is basically a memory game. You need to know his rotations and be ready to dodge when he uses a particular attack. Titan extreme is the same except with less places to dodge to and less reaction time. This definitely feels like one of those 'punishing' moments, and certainly isn't my definition of fun.

To be honest, a lot of the fights are turning out this way. It's one thing to design a fight where you need to learn mechanics as the fight progresses, but it's quite another to design a fight where you need to experience the whole thing before you can actually figure out a way to beat it.

I explained my reasoning many posts back when this was first brought up, look through.

For fights reliant on reaction time, I only wish they synced up the enemy attack animations, and when the server declares you hit, better.

There shouldn't be these pregnant pauses between you declared 'hit' for an attack, and then the animation playing out after the AoE zone disappears, and then finally you getting your damage numbers/knockback/etc.

It's all too stilted at it stands, and doesn't help the "I was clear of it!" situation much either when animation has priority on everything.


On that note, I'm baffled knockback attacks are done client-side. Can go in a completely different direction than what you should have been if you lag for whatever reason when hit by one (or the server farts, which happens often to me on Demon Wall for whatever reason).

I want to force the devs to fight titan with 300 ping combined with the game's stupid disjointed action/casting/animation system PLUS random lag spikes for no reason at all (edit: there's actually a reason, the servers are garbage). Have them do it for a week straight on their office hours and extend another week if they dont have a 95% win rate for that week. Including Yoship himself.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

I want to force the devs to fight titan with 300 ping combined with the game's stupid disjointed action/casting/animation system PLUS random lag spikes for no reason at all. Have them do it for a week straight on their office hours and extend another week if they dont have a 95% win rate for that week. Including Yoship himself.

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Totally agree. Maybe next Q&A, tons of us should ask them if they actually play their content on live circumstances. In difference situations, like the above one. If they cannot more then 25% pass after like 50~ tries then they need to twitch it.

The root of the problem lies solely in the server-side detection of avoiding an AoE. The Primal fights are not a level playing field for all players, they scale in difficulty dependent upon your location relative to the server, and how loaded your link to the server is. This, coupled with die-once/stay-dead penalties for a number of the fights, which then in turn generally causing team wipes as a result, makes a number of the instances extremely frustrating for significant portions of the playing population. For me, after looking at the extreme primal fights online, I already know that they are utterly impossible with server-side hit detection for my network latency, even with WTFast running. It is disappointing to pay for a game that sections of the content are effectively excluded from play due to technical difficulties.

This fight is my personal favorite. While I do agree with the Extra Credits video, I do not think this game is just "punishing". I can't really think of any instances where there is no way to outplay something the game thorws at you except for twintania's liquid hell spam which is just bad luck. When you (your party) fails the attempt to retry is close to instant.

Some extra thoughts: some people lag, but that is in general something SE has little control over. Personally I've never had this problem.
Some people are too slow, get better...
Lastly and probably most frustrating, this is not a single player game. This means that in a fight that is difficult it does not require you to make a mistake for you to lose, but any of the other 7 players in there. Tio add to your frustration, it is very easy to think that you are doing the correct thing most of the time (people that play any MOBA can probably relate).

I didn't cleared it yet, but I find the fight pretty fun. I love Titan HM and now I am loving it EX.

Seems like OP never played Dark Souls :D

there are two kind of people.. these who love Titan and these who dont love it YET ^^

I was someone who made fun of people who thought Titan HM is hard, EM is not fun. the timing on Extreme Mode is so tight that on my (pretty decent, i thought) connection avoiding weight of the land is basically a dice role. It's not fun because there's not really any skill involved. It's not like HM where you just have to memorize stuff. While some of the additions (like the double gaol) are clever, the instant death dodge mechanic is basically luck unless you live next to the server thanks to the nature of network latency and the FFXIV staff's refusal or inability to make stuff like this operate client side.