Do you know why the average pf player is so bad?

If you're seriously losing fun when the dungeon takes 5 more minutes I'd suggest to seriously review your priorities. Maybe you're not having fun already by doing dungeons, and the problem is probably somewhere else?

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Originally Posted by Valence

If you're seriously losing fun when the dungeon takes 5 more minutes I'd suggest to seriously review your priorities. Maybe you're not having fun already by doing dungeons, and the problem is probably somewhere else?

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Ah yes, the good ol' strawman argument.

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Originally Posted by Valence

If you're seriously losing fun when the dungeon takes 5 more minutes I'd suggest to seriously review your priorities. Maybe you're not having fun already by doing dungeons, and the problem is probably somewhere else?

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That's not what I meant at all.
I meant it's not fun based on what you said. The player who doesn't care they are bad and doesn't seek to improve. If that player's fun comes at the cost of stressing out other players by making them have to deal with them, I don't think that's very fun. We want to chill we want to relax, have an easy run, and go about our day. The only person chilled and relaxed is the person taking advantage of those who do care.

Don't you think that's selfish? It's a social game you need players to be able to do what their role is to some degree of competency. The higher your number next to your role the more I expect you to know. My expectation of a sprout at 40 is different than a sprout at 70, 80 and when they reach 90.
I've played Whitemage for 8 years solid singularly as my main job I played. I'm tolerant as I said of people making mistakes, you see it all the time.

But being tolerant of something doesn't mean it's okay - and it's not like I assume malice of the player on them being bad. It has little to do with dungeons. We're talking about PF for higher-end content specifically. Dungeons and normal trials should be preparing you but it's not. So if you're already dead weight in a dungeon, what's the expectation for harder content then where it starts to become increasingly more difficult to cover for other peoples mistakes? Where does it end? To what extent must we accommodate?

What I have suggested and many others have suggested is that it's not inherently the player's fault, the game should acclimate players to be competent for their level in the role they are playing.
Competent enough should they choose to take their steps into harder content it's less of a wall and more of a hurdle.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

It has little to do with dungeons. We're talking about PF for higher-end content specifically.

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It has everything to do with dungeons though. You replied to a post discussing dungeons, and are instead bringing up PF related etiquette. (Edit: I'm saying the reply to the poster, not the overall thread)

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Originally Posted by Nadda

The player who doesn't care they are bad and doesn't seek to improve. If that player's fun comes at the cost of stressing out other players by making them have to deal with them, I don't think that's very fun. We want to chill we want to relax, have an easy run, and go about our day. The only person chilled and relaxed is the person taking advantage of those who do care.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

Don't you think that's selfish?

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Originally Posted by Nadda

Where does it end? To what extent must we accommodate?

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The game provides you all the tools you need to play the game with the types of players that meet your criteria. You can create your own PFs and linkshells and network with the types of players who take the game more seriously... and that's fine.

But once you queue up into Duty Finder, you agree to play with the team the Duty Finder matches you with, or... take the penalty. If you queue up to someone else's PF, you meet their standards or... leave them and find ones that are more in line with yours. Demanding a particular skill level from the team you're randomly matched with, is a you problem, and in the other players' point of view, you're the selfish one, trying to hinder their fun, just to save a few minutes of your day.

Now, if someone without the skills, lies their way into your PF and ruins your day, then sure, complain all you want.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

Dungeons and normal trials should be preparing you but it's not.

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Perhaps it should, perhaps it shouldn't. The game is trying to appeal to a wide audience, with differing views and opinions on what constitutes fun.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

What I have suggested and many others have suggested is that it's not inherently the player's fault, the game should acclimate players to be competent for their level in the role they are playing.
Competent enough should they choose to take their steps into harder content it's less of a wall and more of a hurdle.

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Players who're interested in more difficult content will learn and do it regardless, players who aren't, won't ever care. Trying to force people into content they're not interested in, is how you lose your customers.

And not all players care about improving in their entertainment medium, nor should they. Having to do homework, look up spreadsheets and guides, and practice punching a dummy is boring, it's tedium, and all for what? Just to play a game to meet someone else's standards?

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Originally Posted by Nadda

So if you're already dead weight in a dungeon

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They're not dead weight if they're pressing their buttons and trying to do any damage, or if they're doing mechanics and happen to play suboptimally and/or make mistakes. If they're hanging around at the entrance doing nothing, you then have an argument for dead weight.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

That's not what I meant at all.
I meant it's not fun based on what you said. The player who doesn't care they are bad and doesn't seek to improve. If that player's fun comes at the cost of stressing out other players by making them have to deal with them, I don't think that's very fun. We want to chill we want to relax, have an easy run, and go about our day. The only person chilled and relaxed is the person taking advantage of those who do care.

Don't you think that's selfish? It's a social game you need players to be able to do what their role is to some degree of competency. The higher your number next to your role the more I expect you to know. My expectation of a sprout at 40 is different than a sprout at 70, 80 and when they reach 90.
I've played Whitemage for 8 years solid singularly as my main job I played. I'm tolerant as I said of people making mistakes, you see it all the time.

But being tolerant of something doesn't mean it's okay - and it's not like I assume malice of the player on them being bad. It has little to do with dungeons. We're talking about PF for higher-end content specifically. Dungeons and normal trials should be preparing you but it's not. So if you're already dead weight in a dungeon, what's the expectation for harder content then where it starts to become increasingly more difficult to cover for other peoples mistakes? Where does it end? To what extent must we accommodate?

What I have suggested and many others have suggested is that it's not inherently the player's fault, the game should acclimate players to be competent for their level in the role they are playing.
Competent enough should they choose to take their steps into harder content it's less of a wall and more of a hurdle.

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The problem is more that I don't comprehend how it even stresses you out. It's a random casual dungeon. I don't comprehend how you care so much.

Wait, we are talking about PF and higher end content now?

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Originally Posted by Valence

The problem is more that I don't comprehend how it even stresses you out. It's a random casual dungeon. I don't comprehend how you care so much.

Wait, we are talking about PF and higher end content now?

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It's always been about pf (read the thread title).
The only mention of dungeons is that they're a reason why the player base is bad.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

No. Average players are average. When you take words out of context, I can just as easily say average players are good. Do you see how that works now

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a number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data, in particular the mode, median, or (most commonly) the mean, which is calculated by dividing the sum of the values in the set by their number.

When the majority of players are bad at the game, by definition, the average player will also be bad, as the mean will be heavily skewed towards the 'bad' end. The only time the average player can be contextually 'good' is when the vast majority of players are 'good', which isn't the case here.

You don't even need something as drastic as Extremes to showcase this, just go do all the harder alliance raid out there over and over (and hilariously enough, even easier stuff like Thalaeia/Euphrosyne (Tetrapagos in particular is a fun mechanic to watch people eat it in droves on)) and watch in abject horror the sheer amount of players who die to mechanics that would be so utterly trivial to anyone who was actually of "average" skill in a game with a more smoother skill curve.

Even back in the day, Deluburum/Dalriada/Castrum were full of people dropping like flies to trivially easy mechanics, and those fights I would consider closer to a true 'midcore' level. The elemental boss of Castrum in particular would see bodies piling up if he used any elemental combo that wasn't the easiest one (Earth + Fire in particular would rack up a killstreak)

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

Even back in the day, Deluburum/Dalriada/Castrum were full of people dropping like flies to trivially easy mechanics, and those fights I would consider closer to a true 'midcore' level. The elemental boss of Castrum in particular would see bodies piling up if he used any elemental combo that wasn't the easiest one (Earth + Fire in particular would rack up a killstreak)

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I farmed those people for the rez title.

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Originally Posted by Valence

The problem is more that I don't comprehend how it even stresses you out. It's a random casual dungeon. I don't comprehend how you care so much.

Wait, we are talking about PF and higher end content now?

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My suggestion to you if you can't comprehend where I'm coming from is to start by trying to do that. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who does care so much and why.

To answer your second question the thread is asking "Do you know why the average pf player is so bad" - maybe it has more to do with verbiage but when I think PF I think of doing EXs/Unreals, Savage or Ultimates.
Not Dungeons we do in duty roulette.
Dungeons and normal trials factor into the discussion but only to the extent that they aren't challenging enough in regards to acclimating player competency to enter other content. So it is and isn't about dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

The game provides you all the tools you need to play the game with the types of players that meet your criteria. You can create your own PFs and linkshells and network with the types of players who take the game more seriously... and that's fine.

But once you queue up into Duty Finder, you agree to play with the team the Duty Finder matches you with, or... take the penalty. If you queue up to someone else's PF, you meet their standards or... leave them and find ones that are more in line with yours. Demanding a particular skill level from the team you're randomly matched with, is a you problem, and in the other players' point of view, you're the selfish one, trying to hinder their fun, just to save a few minutes of your day.

Now, if someone without the skills, lies their way into your PF and ruins your day, then sure, complain all you want.

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I think you are misunderstanding something which is saying I'm demanding a particular skill level.
Again. I was addressing the hypothetical player that was proposed. One that could honestly be created within the current content pipeline.
The idea it doesn't matter how competent they are based on their level as long as they are personally having fun, is self-indulgent. To be accepting of that behavior is coddling and atrophies player growth.
Now I'll say this for a third time. I am tolerant of your run of the mill random goof you'll find in a duty roulette.
Being tolerant doesn't make it okay. Especially at the expense of others because one person's fun shouldn't infringe on everybody else's fun.
Yes, you do agree to be randomly paired with people in a duty roulette (I'll be moving the conversation towards PF in a bit) but you know part of that social contract is also having the competency to play your role. Otherwise, you're most certainly griefing a group. Especially when you're talking about higher levels (as in actual levels in this case) of content.

To add an additional thought experiment to the mix; it's like for example an individual who doesn't know how to heal, queueing up as a healer to do all their duty roulettes because they know their queues will instantly pop and that they'll get all the juicy rewards at the end because they queued healer.

This is a random example but my point about that type of player is that according to you that becomes a "You" problem for me. I didn't choose this person. Sure I randomly got stuck with the person but wouldn't you agree then at least within the confines of this hypothetical at least that the person who queued up as a healer main has some form of responsibility in doing that job competently? It's kinda like, being the person on the air plane next to the emergency door. You get the extra leg room (fast queue times) but the social expectation is for you to help people in a crisis.

Are we then going to argue when the plane is on fire that it's our fault some random person who decided to opt into that chair decides not to help anyone and is the first person off the plane? (actually, ignore that question, I know most gamers at large are cynical - but my point stands)

now of course duty roulettes aren't life or death. Though I'd also argue that the suggestion that people would just take leaver penalties because of a single bad player is obtuse. You'll tolerate it. As I said but that doesn't make it good.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Perhaps it should, perhaps it shouldn't. The game is trying to appeal to a wide audience, with differing views and opinions on what constitutes fun.

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This is sort of what the thread is about.
Again I've not suggested content as it stands needs to become non-approachable to a wider audience. The game can become better at gradually introducing concepts and inducing more instances of danger to over time cause people to acclimate naturally. Believe it or not that's what the casual content's intended purpose is. We hear a lot about needing to manufacture more midcore content to bridge the gap between normal content to EX/Unreal.

I don't believe there would be such a gap if we just cranked the heat up on normal content progressively throughout your leveling process so by max level in the job you are playing EX/Unreal will still be a hurdle (so it will be difficult) but you won't have this result where the skill gap is so large because the base game asks so little of you before then that you quit because it's too staggering.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Players who're interested in more difficult content will learn and do it regardless, players who aren't, won't ever care. Trying to force people into content they're not interested in, is how you lose your customers.

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It's almost ironic beforehand I'm told I'm a gatekeeper and then to another, I'm forcing people into content they aren't interested in. I digress.
You're absolutely right. Players who don't care won't ever care and I can't force them to do things they don't want.
I don't particularly care for the players who don't care. tbh
I care about the players we lose for higher levels (talking about difficulty this time) of content because the base game never asked anything of them and they are faced with this massive skill wall and quit before they even try to learn.
We should be doing a better job to make that transition easier for people who do care.

Based on the second statement underneath I'm assuming you're a former WoW player? lol I don't want people to be running sims, using fflogs or xivanalysis - I'm not endorsing that. You don't even need to do those things to be competent or do EXs/Unreals.


To your last point. Yes, they are dead weight. I'm not going to pretend they aren't dead weight. I'm not soft or sentimental when it comes to reasonable expectations. Now I'll still carry dead weight to the finish line to the bitter end but that's because I like the exercise. Especially as a healer. Makes my job more interesting but they are a burden they need to try harder. Everyone makes mistakes but mistakes aren't routine.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I think you are missing the point the devs have tried to hammer home. You going into an instanced trial is you agreeing to do the thing for up to an hour. You have the option to leave the instance if the play style of others isn’t to your liking. They’re being bad at the game is not against the rules put out by the devs.

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It's not about being against the rules, you're missing the point, Look specifically at what I said The average player is bad because they do not know the fundamentals the game itself expects you to know. There are no "Play Styles". The game expects you to know the difference between a Stack and a Multi Stack, It expects you to infer based on what you see to understand and adapt. We learn this in School, jobs even teach you like this, It's literally, being shown an example, and then being shown the answer, from there you can infer so much. At this point, it's the player, not the game, because the game has shown you the needed information through out the lvling process, and other high content.

At this point any inability to keep up is a lack of willingness to learn on the players part, this would happen if the game was harder, but the fact that it's easier, makes it so much more of an exacerbated issue. If XIV was more complex, which it has been, people would get so much more grace with such basic issues. But now that it's so much more ...manageable for lack of better words and people still struggle, it's telling of the player, not the game. I'm speaking on the basics ofc, because thats how black and white this playerbase is in NA, theres not much room for nuance, they're either someone who understands and or someone who doesn't. And like it's been said above me, the Majority of average players in XIV are, bad, and there no real exception for that.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

If you are so hard up that you need to play with “good” players, you have the option to make a linkshell/community with like minded people. You are encouraged to do so! But when you play with randos, you get what you get.Until the game or the devs want players to improve, they won’t. Nor will they need to.

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Making your own groups is definitely a choice, but it's not one always available. I'm also assuming you're saying the whole hard up on playing with good players thing as a general statement as I'm not, simply stating the facts that people in XIV, are pretty bad at learning what this game teaches. But when I play with randos I expect people to be bad, hence why I heal, the facts that I can carry runs by myself is a testament to how much Yoshida has over simplified this game and needs to rethink how things are going. Because I should be able to hold a basic standard to other humans, the devs making the game like this isn't an excuse for that and it shows in both EU and JP, do Your part we're not here to carry and baby you. I can't wait for the day we get back to that mindset in NA.