Trick Attack

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Originally Posted by aloneatsea

I'm sorry, but this is just not correct. On high enough ping, double-weaving will clip on any class. However, with reasonable ping, double-weaving after a GCD is perfectly fine. The only instances where you can't double-weave would be with your pot (as the pot animation lock prevents you from doing so) or immediately following a mudra/ninjutsu cast, as the cast time of your mudra occupies too much of your first weave slot.

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Do you play a job with a 2.1 gcd? Nin doesnt clip at 66 theres never a need.

We are slowly but surely moving toward jobs having zero support outside of 2 min buffs.

Ever since they got rid of aggro management, NIN lost its utility in managing aggro for big damage dealers ala SAM/BLM.

Then they removed weapon type resistance debuffs, so they lost their other niche. (Although it was for the health of balance).

So then NIN just became a trick slave and almost always got hit with weak personal dps because they're sacrificing their damage for everyone else to thrive. But consensus was that there was a lot of work for little reward. Not to mention NIN is more punishing since you can still mess up mudras.

Eventually all of the rdps dps are going to be fighting for who has the best 2 min burst.

Idk what SE could do at this point to give "support" jobs more meaningful ways of support their team without it being damage related.

Realistically Mug should just be trick attack now and suiton should lead into some sort of larger burst skill every minute instead. As it stands this change makes overall party interaction improve for the debuff, but doesn't actually solve the issue of drifting for the NIN itself. I also really don't see why we need to have so many buffs/debuffs on NIN at this point. We already have Huton to keep up, still have TA, Kassatsu (which I think flows fine but really all its doing for single target is making a useless jutsu actually do something), Bunshin, and now Mug. On top of that, it's kind of annoying imo that NIN's rotation doesn't really have much to make it feel like there's a big difference with the burst window anymore. Personal TA is just gonna be more of the same. As scuffed as the raiju opener was in 6.0 it was at least different and not the same paced Aeolian Edge combo. Meanwhile bunshin still is on a 90s CD so we're only getting that every third TA and Mug to line up. So while I think the transfer of the debuff to Mug is overall good, I don't really get why TA wasn't entirely changed, or the skills just swapped around and Mug becomes a stealth ability that does bigger damage. Really just something that at least doesn't retain drift issues.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

Ever since they got rid of aggro management, NIN lost its utility in managing aggro for big damage dealers ala SAM/BLM.

Then they removed weapon type resistance debuffs, so they lost their other niche. (Although it was for the health of balance).

So then NIN just became a trick slave and almost always got hit with weak personal dps because they're sacrificing their damage for everyone else to thrive. But consensus was that there was a lot of work for little reward. Not to mention NIN is more punishing since you can still mess up mudras.

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You get it, as it feels like this has been something a long time coming (sadly). NIN has a lot they have to do for good damage output, and as of recently, the devs have stated they want complex jobs to do more damage, something completely opposite to how NIN has been for the longest (as it was complex and the lowest melee DPS). Going forward, it seems they want the majority of the support to come from the physical ranged and the casters (with the exceptions of BLM and MCH).

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

Idk what SE could do at this point to give "support" jobs more meaningful ways of support their team without it being damage related.

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There is lots of things that cause and remove status effects. But it remains to be seen if they would actually incorporate such things outside of blue mage related content.

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

People just don't get it. They only care about numbers and balance. I am by no means a good ninja player, but I find trick attack fun. I find mashing everything into trick attack fun.

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And nothing will change for you. You will still use everything you have under Trick. Going by the little information we got so far this changes NOTHING for the NIN rotation outside of keeping Mug on cooldown as opposed to allowing it to drift slightly (unless they change our Ninki generation)

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

People just don't get it. They only care about numbers and balance. I am by no means a good ninja player, but I find trick attack fun. I find mashing everything into trick attack fun. I find allowing my party to take advantage of my trick during odd minutes fun. I enjoy the “challenge” of keeping my tricks on time every minute to help my party do more damage fun. This hurts my enjoyment of the job, and what a lot of players find fun about the job. Im not a slave to damage and balance and logs. I just like the job.

And the fact people still say "they haven't cut it out entirely". They kept the icon and the name of the move, but they have changed the purpose of the move, and what the move does. You think drk's old delirium is still in the game just because the name is still around? it if looks like a duck, or doesn't look like a duck rather, it's not a duck. If you keep the animation for communio and the name but make it a healing spell, that's not the same move

Also if square really does balance the game around fflogs, I will be very amused. The guys at fflogs better get a paycheck from yoshida every month if they do half of their job for them. Square's balancing team being slaves to a formula people came up with on the Internet is just funny.

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Here is the full quote. I said “ People just don't get it. They only care about numbers and balance. I am by no means a good ninja player, but I find trick attack fun. I find mashing everything into trick attack fun. I find allowing my party to take advantage of my trick during odd minutes fun. I enjoy the “challenge” of keeping my tricks on time every minute to help my party do more damage fun.” What will change is my enjoyment of the job. Good job ignoring the next two sentences though.

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Originally Posted by Hawuhawuu

Double weaving clips on nin and should be avoided at all costs. The only acceptable time to double weaving is when potting. When clipping mug/bunshin together.bunshin before your 3rd gcd gives you 100 ninki in your opener which is now gone and or either yours or teams buffs dont get the full value from buffs as its not at an optimal time.

I personally will be doing whatever maximizes my damage over the parties. Thats their goal with this change.

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If you want to maximise your damage over the parties, I suggest you watch this video created by one of the mentors in the balance: https://bit.ly/3sy2kBx

While mug isn't double weaved in the opener, it is done so in even minute bursts after that. I have been told the gain is quite small, and that there is no need to stress about it. I do wonder if their decision to make mug the new raid buff is also to stop people from double weaving mug in trick. While I personally don't do it because I am bad at the game, I wouldn't be surprised their decision was influenced by square's fetish to remove any and all kind of personal optimisation, even for such a microscopic gain. As a pretty casual raider, square removing this small optimisation doesn't do anything for me. I don't really enjoy the game more knowing people are forced to be as bad as I am. If top tier ninjas want that small gain, let them. I'm still not gonna be a purple parser when they remove this.

If Mug is just 5% every 120s imma be pretty damn disappointed.......

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

You get it, as it feels like this has been something a long time coming (sadly). NIN has a lot they have to do for good damage output, and as of recently, the devs have stated they want complex jobs to do more damage, something completely opposite to how NIN has been for the longest (as it was complex and the lowest melee DPS). Going forward, it seems they want the majority of the support to come from the physical ranged and the casters (with the exceptions of BLM and MCH).

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To me NIN is one of the least complex jobs though.

It has a lot of micromanagement, yes, but Trick provides a singular burst window as a point of focus to get a handle on our toolkit, and we have the most uptime tools out of any melee job. Only Paladin rivals our potential in that regard, and it’s localized to their burst window while we retain the ability to use most of our tools however we want past the opener.

A lot of the changes I want for the job aim to cut down on said micromanagement as well as bloat. And I think do it better than what SE is proposing. Mug is one of those buttons we simply do not need in the first place.