Forgive me if I sound elitist, but...Quote:
Originally Posted by NovaBismarck
You're playing Red Mage in a very suboptimal way if you're "constantly watching the party to make sure no one is going down." You're not a healer, it's not your job. Vercure isn't an off-global cooldown that otherwise costs nothing to cast; casting vercure costs anywhere between 305.44 to 421.64 potency because in the moments you're casting Vercure, you're not casting a damage spell. By stretching to try to handle the healer's job for them, you're actively working against your own job of doing damage. Vercure's best use right now is to get a dualcast ready for when the boss returns from downtime.
For the sake of argument though, let's say we do count it as utility. Well, RDM still shouldn't be taxed for having it, simply because using it comes with a tax. A tax of 306 to 422 potency. It's a stretch to say RDM should be double taxed for Verraise, but it's absolutely beyond the pale to suggest they should be double taxed for Vercure.
-
08-11-2019, 05:12 AMSaberMaxwell
-
08-11-2019, 05:18 AMIchiExorz
Ehm. My view on these stats:
MNK & DRG need to be nerfed to what SMN is right now.
SAM & MCH need to be buffed to what BLM is right now.
I think BLM should be the highest dps very closely followed by SAM & MCH closely following SAM.
Also DNC, NIN & RDM & BRD need slight buffs to be on par with SMN (raid damage wise.) -
08-11-2019, 05:48 AMVendalwindWat.Quote:
Originally Posted by IchiExorz
MNK, DRG, SAM, and NIN all need to be viable. Nerfing MNK and DRG to SMN levels would destroy them.
MNK needs a slight nerf, cause there are moments where its pDPS exceeds even that of BLM, and that is a problem. That should never happen.
This also tells me BLM doesn't need a nerf.
DRG should stay exactly where its at, for the most part its pDPS is still lower than SAM, but its rDPS is higher at 75th, exactly where it should start to exceed. IMO DRG and BLM are the closest to exactly where they should be of all the dps classes.
SAM needs to be buffed closer to BLM levels but not quite there cause it can benefit from a slightly broader range of dps buffs.
NIN needs a massive buff, for so many reasons, and hopefully the buff comes mostly through QoL changes rather than just potency tosses.
SMN/RDM need buffs, but the amount is questionable because of how Raise is right now.
Same story for all the Ranged, DNC needs the buff most of all but IMO their dps output should be a bit higher in general. Ranged mobility tax is a bit to high right now. -
08-11-2019, 06:00 AMKabooaLook at the thread title.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myon88
It seems pretty obvious what I"m trying to state.
I don't think Black Mage is overpowered. You can certainly make the argument for monk, on an objective basis, as there's not nearly the same anti-melee fetish other games have, but again - old school here. Melee's traditionally been higher, so while objectively I hear you, it just doesn't bother me to the same degree.
So let's be clear. I don't think you're wrong, but I think you're overstating. So if you are right, and everything gets buffed - booly for you. I hope you have fun with your 5% higher numbers. -
08-11-2019, 06:54 AMMyon88Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
There is an interesting point there I'm been mulling over too, to try and explain the state of most of the melees and blm relative to the rest of the jobs. They're distinguished by their damage output being very binary in nature. While ranged are well, ranged, and jobs like summoner can lean on tools like ruin2. For them, if you're not in range or not casting, you're simply not doing any meaningful damage on these jobs.
So it raises the question of what level of play these jobs' expected damage output is balanced around, from SE's point of view. If they assume perfect uptime as the baseline, then harsh fight design or poor play will punish you severely. Conversely, if they're more conservative and balance around the assumption that these jobs only see, for example, 85% uptime on average, then in the instance you're able to achieve more efficiency than that you'll see results above the intended spec. Looking at the level of fights we have now, they're certainly practically full uptime endeavours for experienced melees and black mages. A combination of many successive additions of tools meant to help them deal with downtime, general player skill, and not to mention the ability for groups to alter strategies to cater to these jobs' restrictions.
Insofar as this premise is true however, the ranged don't really have that privilege. Their damage output is I assume viewed as something relatively stable throughout a fight. If it's assumed ranged are always attacking by default, there's is no way for them to overcome that baseline expectation through better play or something. Correspondingly, if their intended dps is then pegged against a melee/blm only achieving 85% uptime, then you have your 'ranged tax', baked directly into the job itself. Likewise for summoners, they too have a 'ranged tax' in the form of ruin2's 40 potency opportunity cost over ruin3. Lacking the movement tools of other jobs, they have no choice but to lean on ruin2 in actual fights and buy into their version of the tax.
It's not a very encouraging thought though. It means that melees and blms are basically the only jobs that reward you for reaching the actual skill ceiling of the job. As ranged on the other hand, you're basically artificially capped at the level of someone playing a corresponding melee or casting job only 85% efficiently. Personally I don't think it's very healthy for the roles to be designed that way, you might as well slap 'big boy' and 'newbie' stickers on those respective jobs in that case, just to rub it in, so I hope these speculations are completely wrong. -
08-11-2019, 07:11 AMTaiyouSeishin
Tbh, this is the first mmo i remember having that high of a "ranged tax"
-
08-11-2019, 08:00 AMKabooaYeah, and I think that's a good thing. It diversifies the DPS jobs by some archetypal differences, and that's not bad. What's important is that no matter how 'weak' something is, it's always ahead of the curve for what its pitted against, and shoulder to shoulder with its peers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myon88
Admittedly, the lack of appreciable downtime / overabundance of tools is a problem, especially as they are only applying to one job in a given role (Monk and Black Mage). As it stands, I find that my main method of screwing up relates almost entirely to greeding at the wrong time rather than simply not having anything to use. -
08-11-2019, 10:20 AMSequoraHow about we treat casters like ranged. RDM can be high utility low DPS and SMN can be medium utility, medium DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by IchiExorz
-
08-11-2019, 10:24 AMShurrikhanHas it? Ranged have often had stronger rDPS than melee in this game despite having more mechanics which only affect melee than mechanics which only affect ranged.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin
To me there's no binary, only a spectrum -- how much additional effort of optimization is required to maintain uptime? It's just one of many spectrums which create difficulty, but seems the only one relevant to the ranged/caster/melee distinction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sequora
-
08-11-2019, 11:56 AMIchiExorzI'm talking about raid DPS by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
They would be viable either way. MNK & DRG have utility like SMN (and all the classes doing less damage than SMN)
NIN should be on par with those including their Trick Attack utility (personal DPS should be lower though.)
I think if classes like SAM & MCH would get buffed to BLM lvls (due to them not having utility either.) some other classes should be nerfed a little to not just overbuff & make content easier as well.
And the no DPS utility classes should have higher personal DPS than those with utility.
I think we can't just buff everything though. Like sure SMN might need a buff too but like I said before, can't buff everything and i think, looking at these stats, SMN is a good middleground. Classes below need some buffs, classes above need some nerfs (except those without utility, those deserve to be quite a bit higher like BLM.)
And maybe I worded myself a bit wrongly. I don't mean DRG & MNK need the exact same dps as SMN but they should be brought down a little to be more on par with SMN (maybe slightly higher.)
When it comse to ranged, I think both DNC & MCH need serious buffs. DNC dps is just way too low despite their dps utility. And there's 0 reason to take a MCH, no dps utility and does less damage than DRG & MNK which both have utility.
Most urgent ones imo are buffs to DNC, MCH, RDM, NIN. MNK really needs a nerf, DRG isn't too bad. It's just that the non utility DPS like SAM & MCH do too little DPS compared to DRG.
Kinda agree. But when it comes to DPS utility both RDM & SMN have about the same. Only difference is that RDM can res faster than SMN can. I don't think RDM's damage should be that much below SMN's damage because of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sequora