A question for the BLU peeps

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Blue Mage won't be able to enter instances of a higher level than they are, no different to other classes.

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Oh fair enough. I was thinking Undersized parties could get a lowbie in with high levels, but I forgot they've at least got to meant the minimum level requirement to get in. Still, I have a tough time believing level 1 BLUs will be able to learn and equip spells in the open world from level 50 monsters, even if they get help from friends.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Blue Mage won't be able to enter instances of a higher level than they are, no different to other classes. But that does not mean that skills will be gated behind levels. The question is whether they will be able to learn them from the mobs that they have access to.

That being said...does it really matter?! It's not even relevant to the topic. There are other threads about Blue Mage that talk about its mechanics.

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You can go unsynced with friends into a lvl 70 duty as a lvl 1 of any class.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

You can go unsynced with friends into a lvl 70 duty as a lvl 1 of any class.

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So much for that solo experience... but that was part of the joke of this iteration of BLU from the get-go, that contradiction.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

Given how hard they seem to aping XI's style of BLU, it's not at all unreasonable to assume that blue magic will be level restricted in this game as well.

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Considering that the spellbook we saw makes no mention of any level, and that they stated that different level of the same monster can teach the same spell, there's absolutely nothing to base this assumpton on. And it does not change the fact that this :

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

This doesn't really make sense because, BLU has always been gated from learning certain spells based off of what level it is

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is just plain wrong. To which I replied :

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, the only time BLU has ever been gated by level is in FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

Still, I have a tough time believing level 1 BLUs will be able to learn and equip spells in the open world from level 50 monsters, even if they get help from friends.

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What I see them do, which would actually fit BLU very well, is having fixed MP cost for each spell. So, you might be able to learn them, but you may have a hard time casting the really powerful ones right away. And it would be a nice nod to what JohnSpawnVFX mentionned, that you could have some kind of "soft cap", that you can try to bypass. Who knows, maybe BLU will make good use of Piety materia to be able to cast some spells earlier that usual.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

The full idiom is literally, "You can't fit a square peg in a round hole."

I definitely disagree with calling a BLU a square peg that can't fit into the round hole of XIV's group content, but I'm sorry, you're just straight up wrong about the meaning of the phrase.

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No. That's how people modify it, it's not the idiom. The idiom is literally just 'square peg in a round hole', alternatively 'round peg in a square hole'. It is used specifically for people.

Dictionary.com
Collins
Wikipedia
Merriam

Idioms are specific. If you add stuff to them, they stop being idioms. Sure, some people do say "you can't fit a square peg in a round hole", but as I said, it is the modern interpretation of people too ignorant of the actual meaning behind the idiom they try to use. And unlike is the case with definitions of words, idioms cannot evolve. Only be forgotten and new ones made.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Considering that the spellbook we saw makes no mention of any level

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Spellbook..? just a moment while I look that up... Oh hey, look at that!

It is a bit interesting that the only tooltip we can see says that the spell being highlighted is learned in Halatali. Most of the other spells we've seen being learned appear to be from instances as well. I think the image/video we saw of Bad Breath being learned was in the open world though. You're definitely right that there's no levels visible in that spellbook screenshot, though it's possible that the open world spells would show level requirements while spells you can only get from instances don't need to, since you can't get in until the proper level anyway. That's a pretty thin argument though, and the simplest explanation is that you're correct and blue magic won't have level restrictions.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

No. That's how people modify it, it's not the idiom. The idiom is literally just 'square peg in a round hole', alternatively 'round peg in a square hole'. It is used specifically for people.

Dictionary.com
Collins
Wikipedia
Merriam

Idioms are specific. If you add stuff to them, they stop being idioms. Sure, some people do say "you can't fit a square peg in a round hole", but as I said, it is the modern interpretation of people too ignorant of the actual meaning behind the idiom they try to use. And unlike is the case with definitions of words, idioms cannot evolve. Only be forgotten and new ones made.

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The wikipedia entry originally linked literally says, verbatim, "you can't fit a square peg in a round hole." Your argument is that the original poster of that link didn't read it the article, but that's literally what is written there. If you want to argue that all of society is using the metaphor incorrectly, that's a whole other can of worms, but the original poster in this thread was using it correctly, as stated in the article they linked.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

The wikipedia entry originally linked literally says, verbatim, "you can't fit a square peg in a round hole."

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No, it does not...That does appear once, in a quote. The idiom itself is just square peg in a round hole, as that very same article says. Not to mention, every single dictionary.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

If you want to argue that all of society is using the metaphor incorrectly, that's a whole other can of worms, but the original poster in this thread was using it correctly, as stated in the article they linked.

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I'm arguing that Gemina used it incorrectly and that there are people that use it incorrectly because they interpret it on their own, rather than look at its source. And people seem to be really allergic to dictionaries, arguing that "language is a living thing", calling those that use them "grammar nazis" (which is, also, incorrect, on so many levels) or ignoring them...just like you did.

You can use the metaphor of "can't fit a square peg in a round hole", but that's no longer that idiom. This is the problem.

Also, please stop double+ posting. If you want to respond to multiple posts with quotes then just copy the quotes into one response. Multi-posting is against forum rules on basically every site due to its interference in the flow of discussion.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

No, it does not...That does appear once, in a quote. The idiom itself is just square peg in a round hole, as that very same article says. Not to mention, every single dictionary.

I'm arguing that Gemina used it incorrectly and that there are people that use it incorrectly because they interpret it on their own, rather than look at its source. And people seem to be really allergic to dictionaries, arguing that "language is a living thing", calling those that use them "grammar nazis" (which is, also, incorrect, on so many levels) or ignoring them...just like you did.

You can use the metaphor of "can't fit a square peg in a round hole", but that's no longer that idiom. This is the problem.

Also, please stop double+ posting. If you want to respond to multiple posts with quotes then just copy the quotes into one response. Multi-posting is against forum rules on basically every site due to its interference in the flow of discussion.

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Yes it does. Under "Business Management", calls it a idiomatic expression and doesn't say at all that it has a different meaning than the "pure" idiom.

"Business management

This idiomatic expression has proven to be quite durable into the 21st century. It is used in a range of contemporary business-related circumstances; and illustrative examples include:

"As they say, you can't fit a square peg in a round hole. If your boss is like that round hole and you are that square peg, you aren't going to fit in unless you re-shape your edges.""

And nothing there says this has a different meaning than the idiom. In fact, Wikipedia says idiom and idiomatic expression are the same:

"Square peg in a round hole" is an idiomatic expression

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Yes it does.

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Read that again...Read again what I said.

I'll make it easier for you by dissecting that.

"As they say, you can't fit a square peg in a round hole. If your boss is like that round hole and you are that square peg, you aren't going to fit in unless you re-shape your edges."

"As they say, you can't fit a (...). If your boss is like that round hole and hole and you are that square peg, you aren't going to fit in unless you re-shape your edges." is the context.
"(...) square peg in a round hole (...)" Is the idiom.

The idiom is used in a context. It also follows the fundamental idea of the idiom as it is originally, a person that does not fit in within a certain group, a misfit. There is no issue there. The "can't fit" is unnecessary there. It is not part of the idiom. It's like saying that "If you're poor then bite the bullet." is an idiom because it adds your own parts to it. The "bite the bullet" is still the only idiom part of that though. The "if you're poor then" is just the context in which the idiom is used.

Idioms are rarely used in void. They are always used in context. Context is not their part however, even if it's a commonly used one. There's almost always something said/written before and/or after them.


On a different note, go on, open the actual dictionaries instead of ignoring them. Several, because there are some that include urban speech in their midst.

Here, in fact. You'll notice one of the definitions, coming from McGraw-Hill Dictionary of American Idioms and Phrasal Verbs, using the "can't fit".

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Originally Posted by McGraw-Hill Dictionary of American Idioms and Phrasal Verbs

(Also the cliché: trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, trying to combine two things that do not belong or fit together.)

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Note that the term 'cliche' is used here, not 'an idiom' and that its description also mentions "do not belong or fit together". Square peg does not belong in a round hole, but that doesn't mean it doesn't fit. It may or may not.

But with this...that's all from me. It's way beyond the scope of the topic, no matter how you people try to fit it in by arguing about its use here, as it is literally just semantics at this point.

Gemina used the phrase "can't put a square peg in a round hole", which is a working metaphor, but it is not the idiom. It is simply wrong because Blue Mage can be made to fit duty finder, but the phrase itself I never questioned. She however linked the wikipedia article about the "square peg in a round hole", suggesting that she used this idiom...and that's simply wrong. It is an incorrect use of the idiom. The moment she tried to put a tag of the idiom on her metaphor is when she made an error. That's all.

So...take from this what you will.