Is the vote kick system improperly implemented for how it's actually being used?

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Originally Posted by Miste

You didn't answer my question to you either so I'll ask again. How do you propose they fix the vote kick system in a logical and fair way?

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My original post outlines what I believe is appropriate rationale; afk/offline, and harassment.

Anyway... people will do what they want. I just find our community has been going to s**t the past while. People expect too much from random group matching, and kicking people who wait 20-30min isn't the best behavior to reinforce.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

My original post outlines what I believe is appropriate rationale; afk/offline, and harassment.

Anyway... people will do what they want. I just find our community has been going to s**t the past while. People expect too much from random group matching, and kicking people who wait 20-30min isn't the best behavior to reinforce.

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Yes, people expect too much sometimes, but that expectation goes both ways so it is unfair to call one expectation wrong and the other right.

Some people expect others to play with a certain level of competence and sometimes it goes awry and if they are in the minority then there should be consequences if they refuse to compromise.
But some people also expect others to put up with extremely bad play that very severely negatively impacts the entire group and wastes everyone's time and expect no consequences.

I mean there is only so many times you can tell someone to put the square block in the square hole, and yet they keep trying to put it in the triangle hole. Eventually you have one person holding back 3 or 7 other players after multiple wipes and wasted time and all those players don't want to have to requeue just to finish the content so removing the one player who just doesn't get it after multiple attempts is best for the group. Three-seven players should not end up penalized because of one player. The one player kicked can reflect on what they need to learn in order to complete the fight and/or try again with a new group.

So again it is a majority rule. If people vote kick and it passes that means enough people wanted you gone. Not saying it never gets abused for no reason, but in my 4 years I've only been vote kicked ONE time, and I can say honestly it was my own fault and I rarely see others get kicked for anything but offline or afk.

So my question is what are others doing to get kicked so much to make it worth changing the system to something that is in my opinion less fair than what we have now? If this "randomly kicking people for no reason" was so rampant then after 4 years I should have seen some of it with how much DF I've done.

DF brings you into a group. Not solo. So you have times where you may have to compromise or face consequences for not at least attempting to appease the majority.

Doing any content without a full premade means you have to compromise sometimes. Don't want to work with the team you got? Don't get mad if you get kicked for it.

Also I am talking about outright refusal to even try to do what your team is asking. Like if someone wasn't doing something they should be doing and the group asks them to all they need to do is say "Sure, I'll try" and I am telling you that would be enough for most people. You said you'll try so no problem, you didn't ignore them or outright refuse without even trying.

So if you are queuing DF then be ready to compromise and listen if your team agrees there is something you can do to help the content go smoother or better for the group. That is what I do and I've only been kicked one time in 4 years and that one time was because someone started insulting me so I lashed out back at them which wasn't the best choice, but I was already in a bad mood so I snapped.

The worst part IMO about the vote kick is even if you vote no chances are the other 2 people are together. I have this happen to me a lot of the times where a party member is fine but 2 people I got queued into with decide to vote them out. There is no way to beat their vote even if there is no reason...

They need to adjust it to be a majority of the total party number. 2 people should not decide for a group of 4 that they want to remove someone, especially not so then they can just abandon the last person without any penalty. It should be 3 yes votes and at least 5 in a party of 8.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

I personally think kicking for different playstyle should not be allowed. It is getting abused a lot. SE should look into their policy and update it.

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The issue becomes the moment SE takes a stance, one side will actively rebel. We have seen countless examples, i.e. how few Warriors there were until the stance penalty was removed. If you remove the option to kick, raiders will be even less likely to queue because why bother? Now some might argue it won't make a difference or that raiders don't make up a majority populous, but consider the trickle down effect. If more competent players stop queuing, this leaves good non-raiders stuck with what's left. They may be inclined to join PFs, thus queuing less often themselves. SE doesn't take a position on things like playstyle, healer DPS and etc precisely because they know the backlash isn't worthwhile.

One of the issues is that the current system encourages players, especially abusers of the feature, to stay silent. There is no way that I know of to access the party list for a duty after it has closed. On top of that, the vote kicked player doesn't know the identity of their kicker, nor the identity of the other voter. So what can happen is that someone gets kicked out without being given any chance to address whatever complaint the other people had and then can't actually do anything about it. At best, they'll simply do nothing and move on; at worst they'll report an innocent bystandard who just happened to type in "Hi!" at the beginning of the duty because that's the only person they can report.

They should implement a history of maybe the last 10 duties that a player entered and include the names and classes of the members of that party. From there, a player should be able to add people to their blacklist. IF a person has been vote kicked, they should also have an option to "claim unfair kick". SE should then gather data over a certain period and start punishing players who are found to be outliers when compared to the player base average (both initiators and whoever voted yes). This would empower the person who was kicked and more specifically target players who abuse the system, as they would most likely be outliers.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Because they are the target of the vote. No democracy allows you to vote for or against yourself.

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But in the case where the party is perfectly split in terms of opinions, the issue arises where the first person to resort to using vote dismiss has a clear advantage. In the example of wanting big/small pulls with a 50/50 split, is there really even a good reason to vote kick someone?

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

They need to adjust it to be a majority of the total party number. 2 people should not decide for a group of 4 that they want to remove someone, especially not so then they can just abandon the last person without any penalty. It should be 3 yes votes and at least 5 in a party of 8.

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Exactly. It should require 3 out of 4 members to agree on the vote dismiss for it to go through.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

They need to adjust it to be a majority of the total party number. 2 people should not decide for a group of 4 that they want to remove someone, especially not so then they can just abandon the last person without any penalty. It should be 3 yes votes and at least 5 in a party of 8.

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Then it'll be easier grief, just go in with a friend and do whatever you want.

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Originally Posted by Evumeimei

But in the case where the party is perfectly split in terms of opinions, the issue arises where the first person to resort to using vote dismiss has a clear advantage. In the example of wanting big/small pulls with a 50/50 split, is there really even a good reason to vote kick someone?

Exactly. It should require 3 out of 4 members to agree on the vote dismiss for it to go through.

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And? The other person is promptly free to leave themselves if they deem the vote kick unjustified. Allowing the accused party to weigh in virtually guarantees you will always deadlock, thus defeating the system entirely. Say I wanted to troll you and invite a friend. With your proposal, you have no recourse except to leave and eat a 30 minute penalty. You can't kick me since the vote will be split. If I were subtle and did something like spam Blizzard, any report you make to a GM will be waved aside under the "playstyle" argument.

At this point, why even have a vote kick option at all?

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Originally Posted by Draxis_Fallspear

They should implement a history of maybe the last 10 duties that a player entered and include the names and classes of the members of that party. From there, a player should be able to add people to their blacklist.

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This....already exists. At least if you are going to claim the system needs changes you should know what is already available to you before you do so.

People already have the option to claim an unfair kick also. They report it to GMs and the GMs will look into it and I am pretty sure if SE found out the kick was 100% unfair they would take action. Problem is...that is very hard to prove and if SE cannot prove guilt then they aren't going to punish people for no reason. I mean unless they want the game to die.

Also you cannot punish people who simply vote "yes" to someone elses vote kick as it is possible to click yes without meaning to. I've done it because the window has popped up in my face just as I was pressing buttons on my controller and doing things and I've done that with other menus as well. I've even accidentally withdrew DF cause it popped as I was going through menus quickly. Mouse users same problem, they might just be going to click something then the box pops up and they accidentally click yes. You advocate punishing people for mistakes?

I mean I never see it abused and I have over 7000 DF runs including a few alts and I've only been kicked one time and I admit it was completely my own fault. People getting kicked very often doesn't seem plausible unless they are doing something very very wrong or being rude. I really want to know what people are doing to get kicked so often because in my experience most people avoid kicking people especially since waiting for a new member takes awhile sometimes.