DPS classes numbers and ranking posted on reddit

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

BRD is a support role, yes, but MCH is near pure DPS. The only buffs they bring are the same ones BRD has as role actions, but none of the other awesome buffs BRD offers.

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I disagree with this comment.
MCH is still a support role. They still provide TP/MP regen, Damage buff, and a very powerful debuff (dismantle).

I will agree that MCH falls behind a bard in terms of support due to bard songs. But this certainly doesnt make a MCH pure DPS. I also think they need a DPS boost, but for some reason, MCH have been really hard for SE to balance. They either suck, or are godly. This usually happens to %based classes. Like monks they tried to impliment a +%boost to their abilities. Which means MCH will scale better as gear progresses. But we shall see.

Also remember that Bard and Machinist can do damage on the move, so they always parse a bit less to compensate for that and they still often come out ahead in practice with total damage dealt.

If they parsed the same as a position dependent melee, or stand-still caster, they'd crush them in practice.

MCH brings a 5% damage down, tp/mp on a long CD, and a 6 sec attack down debuff.

Ninja brings a 10% damage down, tp on one character, emnity control, and a 10 sec 10% phys attack down debuff.

One of these does faaaar more than the other.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

MCH brings a 5% damage down, tp/mp on a long CD, and a 6 sec attack down debuff.

Ninja brings a 10% damage down, tp on one character, emnity control, and a 10 sec 10% phys attack down debuff.

One of these does faaaar more than the other.

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Well, if you including all cross class, you forgot to add +20% physical resistance for MCH.
And Feint (which I assume you put as phys attack down debuff), itsnt actually 10% damage reduction , and is far inferior to -10% total damage dealt.
And you added "on a long CD" for tp/mp song, but Goad has just as long as a cooldown and only effects on person.
But I think Goad and the TP song isnt quite as useful as it use to be. Since TP seems to be less of an issue this expansion, unless you are AOE'ing. Atleast so far...

But once again, I will agree that MCH either needs more support abilities or more damage to be relevant.

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Originally Posted by KaiSunstrider

Also every single class brings their own personal debuffs for the most part other than BRD/MCH. In a dragoon group, they get around a 6% flat damage buff which puts BRD in the lower 4ks without considering any other cds at all.

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I'm not sure if you have realised, but disembowel has been nerfed to 5% piercing. How in the name of Jeebus would BRD get 6% damage lol

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Originally Posted by Vincentv

All that said, can't wait to see numbers on an actual raid to see how all the buffs compound and how high each class really is. I wonder if MCH/BRD could be dropped entirely, if healers don't need the MP...

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Cant speak for MCH but it's unlikely BRD would be dropped from the raid scene. Not with the Stormblood changes to the job.

Foe Requiem: 3% damage taken increase to mobs
Mage's Ballad: 2% party wide crit buff; Troubadour effect: increased maximum HP; Duration: 30 seconds
Army's Paeon: 2% party wide crit buff; Troubadour effect: decreased physical vulnerability; Duration: 30 seconds
Wanderer's Minuet: 2% party wide crit buff; Troubadour effect: decreased magic vulnerability; Duration: 30 seconds
Nature's Minne: 20% healing boost on selected party member or self; Duration: 15 seconds

With each song having a 30 second duration and 80 second cooldown, it's easily attainable to have a consistent 2% crit buff for the entire duration of a raid. Plus Troubadour effects during crucial moments, Foe's when available, and Nature's Minne to boost heals on an MT after a heavy tankbuster (and Minne is on a 45 second cooldown, so not at all long). We still have Paeon too, to prevent or remove a debuff (yes, it is useful for more than just Old Berserk's Pacification; I use it on myself to save healers from cleansing annoying debuffs or to preemptively prevent one, and I toss it on other party members if I know they're about to get hit with a cleansable debuff).

Troubadour has a kinda long CD (180 seconds) but considering its duration can last a full 30 seconds (lasts while a song is active), fair trade-off. A good BRD would study fights and their group and know when to play which song and Troubadour it. Plus, Battle Voice augments the song's effects, and has the same CD duration as Troubadour.

BRD brings far more to the table than just MP for healers. (And TP) Just wanted to point that out. :3

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

I'm not sure if you have realised, but disembowel has been nerfed to 5% piercing. How in the name of Jeebus would BRD get 6% damage lol

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Because of the way boss resistance work. When disembowel was 10% piercing resistance debuff, that equated to an 8-11% damage gain for BRD and MCH. Of course this number varies depending on reference because the only way that people were able to find out actual damage gains was to hit targets with and without debuff and compare the relative gains over many iterations.. This is the very reason many statics ran DRG, NIN, MCH, BRD because of the extreme synergy even though Monks had much higher personal dps. Now that disembowel is only 5% piercing resistance it is likely still a 4-6% damage buff.

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Originally Posted by KaiSunstrider

Because of the way boss resistance work. When disembowel was 10% piercing resistance debuff, that equated to an 11% damage gain for BRD and MCH. This is the very reason many statics ran DRG, NIN, MCH, BRD because of the extreme synergy. Now that disembowel is only 5% piercing resistance it is only 5.5-6% damage buff.

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1) I'm pretty sure that this isn't the case as people originally thought. It actually buffs your damage rather than lowering the bosses resistance despite what it says it does.
2) Even if it did, BRD gets a large chunk of its dps from DoTs, and those aren't affected by the piercing debuff since its not piercing damage, just physical damage.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

1) I'm pretty sure that this isn't the case as people originally thought. It actually buffs your damage rather than lowering the bosses resistance despite what it says it does.
2) Even if it did, BRD gets a large chunk of its dps from DoTs, and those aren't affected by the piercing debuff since its not piercing damage, just physical damage.

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Sure. The point still remains that Brd and Mch are the only classes that dont bring their own resistance/damage debuffs. Meaning that without considering any party wide buffs cds, both will do more damage just by being on a target with a DRG doing his thing than by themselves. Nin used to be this way with a warrior but now that the SF combo applies slashing, its no longer a "buff" for nins to be in a group with a warrior vs without.

But it's no diff than the argument of DRG will do better just by there being another party member because of DE, and monks will do better in raid group/parties just because of how their CDs have a synergy with chakra generation. All of this without considering anything else anyone brings to the table. You throw either of those two in party with 3 SAMs who bring zero raid cds and zero debuffs for either MNK or DRG and both classes will do more dps than solo.

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Originally Posted by Shortie

MCH is still a support role. They still provide TP/MP regen, Damage buff, and a very powerful debuff (dismantle).

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Not sure where you're getting this from...

Compare the role actions of MCH and BRD:
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/machinist/
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/bard/

They're identical.

Dismantle lowers a target's damage done by 10% for a whopping 5 seconds. As for a damage buff, I'm not sure what you mean. Hotshot only increases the damage done by the MCH, not the damage taken by the target.

So yeah, the only thing MCH has over BRD is dismantle, as far as I can tell.