Why not abolish the Class system entirely in favor of Jobs? [@ Devs]

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Originally Posted by Khal_Drogo

Hey Bass9020, I know it's pretty dumb to quote yourself, but I'm sure you don't wanna scroll through the entire thread, so let me just show you a little....



FFXIV has way too much in common with XI to not be considered "XI-2." That's what it is, technically; it's just not a well-made "sequel" is all. People don't want the same game with better graphics. They want a "new game" with the same *mechanics. The leveling system in FFX was the absolute best one I've ever seen in rpgs. The sphere-grid was absolutely perfect, but for some reason it was never re-introduced. Why? Because people, like you (no offense), think that ANYTHING linking 2 games together, no matter how trivial, makes it "dull" and "unoriginal." That is far from the truth. FFXIV brought a lot of good to the table, but it failed MISERABLY with the current class system. There needs to be some kind of format similar to XI. FFXI's job system was the "sphere grid" of it's genre, imo.

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XII there kiddo. The license board is very similar. Hell, even the class system has more in common with the Sphere Grid than XI's limited subjob system. The class system in XIV is hands down the best thing it has going for it from a gameplay perspective. You a market wards fan? How about not having a house? Is that cool? What about leveling your pointless physical level? Was that awesome? You like waiting three days to switch from a decent DD to a decent mage? Shouting in Ul'dah for parties must be the epitome of a good time ya?

Besides the awesome class system, a system that at first limits you but then opens up as you gain in progress ala X's sphere grid, XIV has very little to offer besides aesthetics. Remove that, you remove any tangible reason to continue on with this game.

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Originally posted by Zagetsu

An opinion of the idea of jobs is fine. When people are bashing it before they even try it and saying how it can do this and can't do that and is only for situation A or B is kinda jumping the gun a bit. Don't ya think?

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Actually, I "don't think." If more ppl would have "bashed" ideas before they came out, they might not have been such a massive, epic failure. And maybe Yoshi-P wouldn't have had such a horrible mess to clean up. They're not "bashing" it because they're upset with the imaginary system they envision being released. They're just making suggestions in a, somewhat, "hostile" way. It's stupid to wait for SE to mess up, and then have them try to fix what could have been prevented in the first place, "don't ya think?" :D

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Originally posted by Rhomagus

The license board is very similar. Hell, even the class system has more in common with the Sphere Grid than XI's limited subjob system.

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You're right about that, but that's comparing "apples to oranges" or w/e the stupid saying is. I was comparing the two, relative to each genre: XI is to XIV as X is to XIII, for example. I don't, literally, want a sphere grid for XIV -like you said, XIV's class system is, virtually, a replica already. However, I *do want XIV to be as epic of an MMORPG, as X was an RPG. And, regardless of what everyone says, the XI job system > XIV class system, imo. It's one thing to allow "versatility," but it's another thing entirely to completely eradicate job/class uniqueness; and that's, exactly, what XIV has done. Why can't their be a middle-ground? It's always one extreme or the other -completely the same, or completely different. I agree w/ what this guy said earlier:

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Originally posted by Hawklaser

As to the comments regarding the FFXI job/subjob being really flexible, it really wasn't. There is a reason all the melee were /war, /thf, /nin, /sam, and why all the mages were /whm or /blm, and rarely /smn. Outside of soloing, or needing of things like chainspell+stun, very few other setups worked. If the system was truly flexible you would of seen things like blm/war in parties later on. There were very few abilities that transferred over to other jobs well.

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However, once again, let's not be extreme. Just because XI wasn't flawless doesn't mean you scrap it. In the words of Norman Osborne (Willem Dafoe) "BACK TO FORMULA?!?! *kills someone*." XI had it's issues, but it was a perfects system to use as a base. They could have found ways to make the jobs more diverse. Who the hell would do blm/war anyway Hawk -don't be a smart ass lol xD

As long as classes end up opening 2 different roles aka jobs in a near future, I don't mind the current project.

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Originally Posted by Khal_Drogo

Actually, I "don't think." If more ppl would have "bashed" ideas before they came out, they might not have been such a massive, epic failure. And maybe Yoshi-P wouldn't have had such a horrible mess to clean up. They're not "bashing" it because they're upset with the imaginary system they envision being released. They're just making suggestions in a, somewhat, "hostile" way. It's stupid to wait for SE to mess up, and then have them try to fix what could have been prevented in the first place, "don't ya think?" :D

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SE will release it regardless. They are not going to stop the implementation of jobs before we even get a chance to try them out. We all should know this by now.

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Originally Posted by Zangetsu

SE will release it regardless. They are not going to stop the implementation of jobs before we even get a chance to try them out. We all should know this by now.

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I don't think that's what the OP meant. There's no reason not to make recommendations about the way the job system should be. Like you said before Zangetsu, everything up to this point has just been speculation. All we know is that there will be jobs...what that entails, no one knows. Might as well do our best to make sure the jobs are made right.

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Originally Posted by Khal_Drogo

I felt the exact same way as you 'til I read this post:




In that sense, it would be great, but ONLY under these conditions: Jobs, absolutely, MUST go back to having no weapon restrictions and the sub-job style for class-trait/ability crossovers. The jobs should, also, drastically outperform their class counterparts. That way, if, for example, you have a friend who lvl'd THM turned RDM , but you already have a party with enough healers/debuffers, you don't have to turn them away. They can join the pt as THM, and still be "relatively" effective....a.k.a. contribute significantly, but not so much that they overpower any other jobs -do good dmg, but not as good as the melee/nuker *jobs; cure/enfeeb/buff well, but not as well as the mage *jobs, etc.

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Exactly, :)

Jobs excel at thier roles, while classes have flexibility...

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Originally Posted by AJ_Anyia

This isn't a bash on XI or its system



That is a lop-sided challenge considering the content comparison between the two games is astronomical 22 Jobs versus 7 classes, of course the one with the higher number has more to work with. I still think that you're missing what I'm saying so I'll word it like this and use your examples. If XI's system played like XIV's then you wouldn't have to choose between DPS SAM, Utsusemi SAM, or Hate Control/Burst Damage SAM and you'd have the ability to have all of the above. You'd be able to do high burst damage with hate control and have high damage output and have shadows being able to be cast. And, again, that is a lop sided challenge considering the time that XI has been out and how long it's been developed and worked on and how much it has to offer. In other words, it has worlds more because it's been out longer. More jobs, more options, etc. All I'm saying, simply and to the point, is that I prefer this system because you have access to everything. All this illusion is just a lack of comparable content. If we were to copy and past all of the jobs from XI to XIV then we'd have SAM's that could SATA/Boost/Souleater weapon skills and Beserk/Focus/Last Resort for DPS all at once and have Utsusemi on. PLDs would be able to use Sentinel/Defender/Provoke/Perfect Counter/Chakra/Utsusemi all at once.

I'm not bashing the subjob system because it did revolutionize how the game was played and did indeed allow people more customizing options and flexibility in how they played their main jobs. But if I was on my SAM and someone told me, "You have two choices. You can either have just the skills from this other job here along with your own. Or, have all of the combat skills from all of your jobs plus your own." I think I know what I'd pick. But again, we can't do that with XIV yet because the jobs aren't there yet and it's still being worked on/fixed/tweaked.

Again, this isn't a bash on XI or its system because I am fully aware of how it impacted the game. And again I'll say this, I am fully in favor of a job system to go along-side the armory system; but not to replace. I am willing to admit and take a look at the job system for XI and am ready and willing to admit for that game it's fantastic. But this isn't XI and I don't think that XI's system should come to XIV and replace the system already in place.

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I understand where you're coming from, and of course...we would all make the same choice in theory. But I think your personal bias is getting in the way of looking at this objectively. Try to imagine how you'd feel watching a THF do all of what you just said on XI, plus having their own natural A++ rating in evasion. They have all your Store TP traits; they have Meditate; they have shadows; they have their natural affinity with crossbows, which gives them access to blood/acid/sleep bolts; and they have their recently added duel wielding trait as well. So, now, they can get faster TP than your SAM could ever dream of by duel wielding blau and merc or something, and then they can cure themselves w/ waltzs on top of all that. Does that seem like a fun game to you? Every job does everything the exact same way? And the only thing that separates them is the fact that they have a different weapon, or different base skills and attributes? Personally, I don't think so. I know I would have loved it on my MNK, but I have to imagine how I'd feel seeing some THF do the exact same thing I could. MNK was one of the few jobs that could solo a God: Genbu. Why would I support the idea of a game giving every job the ability to do what only my job and a few others were capable of doing? Furthermore, why would you support the idea of a game that allows every job to do what you did best (spam weapon skills)? It takes all the fun out of it.

Statement: "I solo'd a GOD!"

Reply: "No shit. It's easy, who hasn't?"

I'd like it if Jobs were not limited to what 'class' you are.

Example, if you unlock Warrior, you could use it with any melee weapon.
Warrior + Axe? + Spear? + Sword? Do it. The weapons influence the various weaponskills they get plus the weapon specific abilities, Lancer's Speed Surge Vs. Axe's Steadfast Vs. Sword and Sentinel.

Warrior focuses more on damage, less so on tanking (though still capable of it, paling in comparison to Paladin for pure 'tank'ness). You mix in what ever special things you remove from the classes and gave to Warrior (I assume this will be happening since so many classic jobs have their abilities spread EVERYWHERE right now).

For Mages... Mages are kind of a mess right now. CON is our BLM and WHM while THM is... what ever got squeezed to the side. Arcanist is likely our candidate for Geomancer, so maybe Scholar for THM? I wouldn't be surprised if SE suddenly or gradually shifts abilities in and out from classes to job specifics.

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Originally Posted by Phenidate

I'd like it if Jobs were not limited to what 'class' you are.

Example, if you unlock Warrior, you could use it with any melee weapon.
Warrior + Axe? + Spear? + Sword? Do it. The weapons influence the various weaponskills they get plus the weapon specific abilities, Lancer's Speed Surge Vs. Axe's Steadfast Vs. Sword and Sentinel.

Warrior focuses more on damage, less so on tanking (though still capable of it, paling in comparison to Paladin for pure 'tank'ness). You mix in what ever special things you remove from the classes and gave to Warrior (I assume this will be happening since so many classic jobs have their abilities spread EVERYWHERE right now).

For Mages... Mages are kind of a mess right now. CON is our BLM and WHM while THM is... what ever got squeezed to the side. Arcanist is likely our candidate for Geomancer, so maybe Scholar for THM? I wouldn't be surprised if SE suddenly or gradually shifts abilities in and out from classes to job specifics.

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Reason why they should not allow you to use other type of wep that does not make sense for your job is.

Mage would use a hand to hand would you really be attacking? nope your back line job.

If your a lancer and using hand to hand wep what the point? if your a pricing type? Same goes for monk using a Lancer wep when monk are about blunt DMG.

So Monk should only use Staff that look like polearm type and Hand to hand. Let's say samurai come out then they can use GK,Polearm,Bow. But allowing everyone to use any type of wep even if does not make sense with your job i find the dumbest idea and there a topic about that and they said that not how it going to be.

They should allow job to wear more then 1 type of wep only if they release the other following Wep that is missing from the game and should only make sense to that job to be using it. Monk --> Hand to hand ---> Long Staff PLD---> Sword / great sword.

But also i think that wont even happen due to the game being wep=class which = job if they change that rule then i see us wearing more then one type of wep.