Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

What if they made HP bars have a green glow around them while under the effects of regens? Will that stop people from healing over your regens? No, but it'd be pretty cool anyway.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

What if they made HP bars have a green glow around them while under the effects of regens? Will that stop people from healing over your regens? No, but it'd be pretty cool anyway.

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People won't Esuna Doom when it has a bright white line over it, they're not going to care about a glow.

Honestly if they want to fix the medica 2 problem they need to either

1) revert medica 2 where the regen was twice as long at half the potency so you were encouraged to spam medica 1 between casts of medica 2 in situations like terminal relativity
2) put medica 2 on a CD when its regen is running so if you want to spam AOE heals while medica 2’s regen is up you have to press medica 1

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Originally Posted by Emitans

People won't Esuna Doom when it has a bright white line over it, they're not going to care about a glow.

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I've argued for years that cleansable debuff UI is terrible and needs a rework. You say "bright white line" I say barely "visible dash swallowed by a sea of multicolored icons". It's not hard, but boy does it feel like the game is trying so hard to hide it from you.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

What if they made HP bars have a green glow around them while under the effects of regens? Will that stop people from healing over your regens? No, but it'd be pretty cool anyway.

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It will just encourage people to keep 100% Medica II uptime so they can keep the pleasant green glow and feel like they're helping. :)

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Originally Posted by Aravell

It will just encourage people to keep 100% Medica II uptime so they can keep the pleasant green glow and feel like they're helping. :)

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I mean the people who do that are the people who are going to heal over regens anyway, heal with their prognosis even when they have 3 Addersting and every cooldown available, not cast esuna when someone is doomed, etc.

Some people are going to suck, and they're happy sucking. But there is a chance it can help some players, and it would be a small QoL for everyone else.

I am that SCH who will always blow all my aetherflow + dissipation at minute 0. If my cohealer struggles or the dps doesn't feel like following mechanics, then i will adjust.

The stigma against Energy Drain needs to go. It’s an integral part of what Scholar is supposed to be, and the nerds to it were insulting and uncalled for. The only thing is I think it needs an animation upgrade and should be AOE.

Steal Energy Siphon. Done.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The stigma against Energy Drain needs to go. It’s an integral part of what Scholar is supposed to be, and the nerds to it were insulting and uncalled for. The only thing is I think it needs an animation upgrade and should be AOE.

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Unfortunately, the stigma will only get worse because of SGE's current design. People will continue to point towards Addersgall and say that ED doesn't need to exist.

What actually baffles me though, is why the people who complain about being forced to use all their Aetherflow on ED also claim that they don't care about logs. Why would anyone possibly care so much about 300 potency per minute if they're not chasing a gold log? I really can't understand it.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Unfortunately, the stigma will only get worse because of SGE's current design. People will continue to point towards Addersgall and say that ED doesn't need to exist.

What actually baffles me though, is why the people who complain about being forced to use all their Aetherflow on ED also claim that they don't care about logs. Why would anyone possibly care so much about 300 potency per minute if they're not chasing a gold log? I really can't understand it.

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Because endlessly generating healing resources you don’t need and have nothing to spend on, yet are obligated to use for MP anyway is such amazing game design.

I hate Addersgall. Its an abomination that teabags on the healer identity Sage was supposed to have based on Yoshi P’s own description.

Just a quick passing thought. What if all of SGE's GCDs are offensive and each use of it not only heals allies with Kardia on, but also grants Addersgall? Make it a mitigation heavy healer while SCH will become the pure barrier healer.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Just a quick passing thought. What if all of SGE's GCDs are offensive and each use of it not only heals allies with Kardia on, but also grants Addersgall? Make it a mitigation heavy healer while SCH will become the pure barrier healer.

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I feel that Sage’s basic spell casts should not trigger Kardia at all. You should instead have different spells that proc different Kardia effects at an MP cost. Dosis has no Kardia effect but also no MP cost. That would really bring out the spirit of a healer who heals through DPS—Kardia is an active choice, not a passive consequence of doing what you’d already be doing anyway.

Addersgall would be better if it was generated through attacks instead of over time. The meter that builds every 20 seconds is for Addersting instead, enabling a few OGCD attacks.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The stigma against Energy Drain needs to go. It’s an integral part of what Scholar is supposed to be, and the nerds to it were insulting and uncalled for. The only thing is I think it needs an animation upgrade and should be AOE.

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Give ED at level 6 (as it used to), upgrade to Bane at level 45, ez

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Because endlessly generating healing resources you don’t need and have nothing to spend on, yet are obligated to use for MP anyway is such amazing game design.

I hate Addersgall. Its an abomination that teabags on the healer identity Sage was supposed to have based on Yoshi P’s own description.

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The Addersgall and Addersting mechanics were a disappointment to be sure. Especially the later because, to me at least, they tried to implement WHM's lily system to SGE to some extent but ultimately failed to do so due to GCD healing being discouraged and Toxicon II is damage loss. WHM also had this problem with it's lily spells before patch 6.1.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The stigma against Energy Drain needs to go. It’s an integral part of what Scholar is supposed to be, and the nerds to it were insulting and uncalled for. The only thing is I think it needs an animation upgrade and should be AOE.

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I wanted it gone. And then they removed it in 5.0 and I realized how bad the job feels without it.

EDIT: "Having" to spend addersgall on worthless heals just to not overcap is how 5.0 SCH felt. I do like SGE but it's the part of the job that feels the worst to me. Pressing Blue Lustrate on myself just to keep up with MP isn't very fun.

What's funny to me is that there's a simple answer for players who don't like Energy Drain: Don't use it, or don't use it to greed DPS and just use it for throwing out unused Aetherflow seconds before the Aetherflow action comes off cooldown. No one is forcing you to play like a barser.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

What's funny to me is that there's a simple answer for players who don't like Energy Drain: Don't use it, or don't use it to greed DPS and just use it for throwing out unused Aetherflow seconds before the Aetherflow action comes off cooldown. No one is forcing you to play like a barser.

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It's the same as people who complained about being forced to drop Atonements on old PLD (The fight actually needs to go for over 11 minutes for you to drift the blades combo out of buffs because you only drift 1 GCD per minute) and people who complain about being forced to weave all the cards during burst on AST (you're not required to fit all cards into burst unless you're chasing rdps). No one is forcing players to do those things, those are optimisations that you'd do if you're chasing a log.

It's really stupid when people complain about not being able to (or not wanting to) do optimisations, that just causes the dev team to cut out all the niche optimisations that people can do now just so everyone can play the job.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

It's the same as people who complained about being forced to drop Atonements on old PLD (The fight actually needs to go for over 11 minutes for you to drift the blades combo out of buffs because you only drift 1 GCD per minute) and people who complain about being forced to weave all the cards during burst on AST (you're not required to fit all cards into burst unless you're chasing rdps). No one is forcing players to do those things, those are optimisations that you'd do if you're chasing a log.

It's really stupid when people complain about not being able to (or not wanting to) do optimisations, that just causes the dev team to cut out all the niche optimisations that people can do now just so everyone can play the job.

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However AST shouldn’t have been changed in EW to make it possible to fit so many cards in the burst window at the expense of everything else

The second charge on draw was entirely unnecessary over how it worked in ShB and since the other classes now focus more intently on the burst window the change made you actively give up more DPS if you don’t or can’t play it optimally (such as controller or high ping) and it doesn’t even make the class feel better to play even if you can play it optimally

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

However AST shouldn’t have been changed in EW to make it possible to fit so many cards in the burst window at the expense of everything else

The second charge on draw was entirely unnecessary over how it worked in ShB and since the other classes now focus more intently on the burst window the change made you actively give up more DPS if you don’t or can’t play it optimally (such as controller or high ping) and it doesn’t even make the class feel better to play even if you can play it optimally

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The main reason AST sucks to play is because they brought back 5.0 AST Sleeve Draw without the button. Remember back then when you had to activate Sleeve Draw and then press Draw and press Play 3 times in a row? That's what the AST burst window currently is. I can't fathom why they deleted late-ShB Sleeve Draw if AST is played like this anyway, if we had Sleeve Draw, we'd at least not have to weave Draw 3 times.

But that's a problem of design, my point is that playing that way isn't required. You say it loses dps, yes, it loses some dps, but why do people care unless they're chasing logs? That's my main point, "Why do people complain about optimised play when they also claim that they don't care about logs?".

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Originally Posted by Aravell

The main reason AST sucks to play is because they brought back 5.0 AST Sleeve Draw without the button. Remember back then when you had to activate Sleeve Draw and then press Draw and press Play 3 times in a row? That's what the AST burst window currently is. I can't fathom why they deleted late-ShB Sleeve Draw if AST is played like this anyway, if we had Sleeve Draw, we'd at least not have to weave Draw 3 times.

But that's a problem of design, my point is that playing that way isn't required. You say it loses dps, yes, it loses some dps, but why do people care unless they're chasing logs? That's my main point, "Why do people complain about optimised play when they also claim that they don't care about logs?".

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I’ll at least say that I find it personally “annoying” when the game is designed in such a way that it’s near impossible to play the class optimally even if you want to put in the effort to do it so

It’s not so much “chasing logs” it’s the idea that I know how the class should be played and I want to play it like that but it’s design actively makes it harder and that feels bad

Energy drain is a different story because that is actually a choice that for some reason people don’t believe is a choice but for something like cards which are actively designed terribly and makes it hard to actually do it correctly the loss caused by drifting cards feels bad, it’s the same as trying to do NIN or DNC’s burst window on 250 ping , trying to play optimally when there are annoying limitations feels bad

Also sorry if I rambled the same point 15 times there I’m writing this whole trying to pay attention to FFXVI in the background

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’ll at least say that I find it personally “annoying” when the game is designed in such a way that it’s near impossible to play the class optimally even if you want to put in the effort to do it so

It’s not so much “chasing logs” it’s the idea that I know how the class should be played and I want to play it like that but it’s design actively makes it harder and that feels bad

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I think the whole issue comes down to how the dev team makes changes to the jobs without thinking of wider implications.

While I don't think AST is exactly badly designed, I do see some questionable decisions. Like the 2nd charge of Draw you mentioned, AST played fine in ShB after they fixed Sleeve Draw, I'm not sure why they felt the need to do this. Astrodyne also makes the burst window busier for little actual gain (Double Astrodyne is stupid, fight me). Also the Lord/Lady RNG sucks.

While I personally don't find it that hard to play AST well, I do see the limitations you mentioned. They did make AST busier for little benefit. Could probably fix it by removing the 2nd charge of Draw while bringing Sleeve Draw back. I'd be perfectly happy with anything as long as they keep AST the speedy job.

I would argue that the road to perfection should feel intuitive and rewarding for every job. At its apex, every job should feel fun to play for that particular playstyle. Something like Energy Drain (particularly before it was nerfed into the pavement) makes a lot of sense because being able to take advantage of it in the past did not mean dumping every Aetherflow into it. You had to make choices at different parts of a fight on what you can and cannot afford to be greedy with, and that's something that is really rewarding.

But that doesn't mean that optimized path has to be the only enjoyable way to play a game. And in general, we need to stop looking at everything as having 1 "correct" path and everything else is objectively wrong. Our community has a tendency to treat barsing as the "right" way, and everything else is failure even when still completing a fight. That's why I like alternative rotations when they're discovered--rotations that are easier to perform yet are strong enough to be competitive thanks to more room for error.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

But that doesn't mean that optimized path has to be the only enjoyable way to play a game. And in general, we need to stop looking at everything as having 1 "correct" path and everything else is objectively wrong. Our community has a tendency to treat barsing as the "right" way, and everything else is failure even when still completing a fight.

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It'll never not be funny to me that the general community treats the balance discord as a toxic elitist cesspool while simultaneously following their job guides like sheep.

But yes, being optimal isn't a necessity and people need to stop treating it like the end of the world when they need to hardcast a res.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

... the end of the world when they need to hardcast a res.

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nah.. most players don't have the balls to hard cast Raise while mayhem happens. XD

Edit and off-topic.. got a good laugh when I revisited an old game I used to play when I was a wee lad
https://i.imgur.com/F3cADxY.png
Like seriously.. even before, Sages and Scholars are meant to be linked. Not to mention that Sages in that game has books as its weapon. :D

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Originally Posted by rawker

nah.. most players don't have the balls to hard cast Raise while mayhem happens. XD

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Oh I'm aware. I remember that one Golbez EX party I had where I made a dumb mistake and died, then my cohealer popped their "Swiftcast up in XX:XX" macro and proceeded to cast Glare 6 times without moving, then we wiped to Twin Meteor because not everyone is up.

It goes without saying that if you can cast Glare 4 times without moving, you can hardcast a Raise.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

But that's a problem of design, my point is that playing that way isn't required. You say it loses dps, yes, it loses some dps, but why do people care unless they're chasing logs? That's my main point, "Why do people complain about optimised play when they also claim that they don't care about logs?".

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"Loses DPS." Loses. The connotation is negative. This is a bad thing, and the implication is you're a bad player. Same thing with, "GCD heals are bad." Again, the connotation is negative, and you're a bad player if you have to touch them. The framing is such that optimized play and optimized parties are the baseline expectation.

Consider instead: "Prefer oGCD heals and lilies to GCD heals." And maybe for SCH, "Unused aetherflow charges can be used on Energy Drain for a bit of extra damage, for example, when Aetherflow is about to come off cooldown." The framing here explains how a good healer approaches things. It applies to a wide variety of content and parties. Optimization becomes something to aspire to.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

"Loses DPS." Loses. The connotation is negative. This is a bad thing, and the implication is you're a bad player. Same thing with, "GCD heals are bad." Again, the connotation is negative, and you're a bad player if you have to touch them. The framing is such that optimized play and optimized parties are the baseline expectation.

Consider instead: "Prefer oGCD heals and lilies to GCD heals." And maybe for SCH, "Unused aetherflow charges can be used on Energy Drain for a bit of extra damage, for example, when Aetherflow is about to come off cooldown." The framing here explains how a good healer approaches things. It applies to a wide variety of content and parties. Optimization becomes something to aspire to.

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Technically, the way the GCD functions, you’re always losing something in favor of something else. You can only cast 1 GCD per 2.5 seconds (or occasionally 1.5 seconds), so every GCD action is directly competing with every other GCD action. The problem is that GCD healing is designed to be the worst possible option: you lose DPS, you lose MP, you lose movement, you lose weaving opportunities… all you gain is healing that is at best barely stronger than OGCD healing and at worst weaker than OGCD healing. “But it’s spammable!” Right in the game that’s more often than not afraid to hit the party more than once a minute. Truly an environment that empowers the value of spammable healing if I’ve ever seen one.

It’s not the community’s fault GCD healing is frowned upon. It’s the designers for doing everything in their power to make GCD healing as unappealing, unhelpful, and unrewarding as possible. And the only exceptions from that rule are DPS neutral GCD heals like Pneuma or lilies. But if healing were reworked such that GCD healing was faster, cheaper, more reliable, more powerful than OGCD healing, then the stigma against it would gradually change.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Technically, the way the GCD functions, you’re always losing something in favor of something else. You can only cast 1 GCD per 2.5 seconds (or occasionally 1.5 seconds), so every GCD action is directly competing with every other GCD action. The problem is that GCD healing is designed to be the worst possible option: you lose DPS, you lose MP, you lose movement, you lose weaving opportunities… all you gain is healing that is at best barely stronger than OGCD healing and at worst weaker than OGCD healing. “But it’s spammable!” Right in the game that’s more often than not afraid to hit the party more than once a minute. Truly an environment that empowers the value of spammable healing if I’ve ever seen one.

It’s not the community’s fault GCD healing is frowned upon. It’s the designers for doing everything in their power to make GCD healing as unappealing, unhelpful, and unrewarding as possible. And the only exceptions from that rule are DPS neutral GCD heals like Pneuma or lilies. But if healing were reworked such that GCD healing was faster, cheaper, more reliable, more powerful than OGCD healing, then the stigma against it would gradually change.

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I honestly don't know why they gave WHM the strongest spammable AoE GCD heal in the game and then proceed to give them better options that don't cost them anything.

It's like they're building healer kits to be as redundant as possible. Although I suppose if they're designing with the end goal of the healer not holding up a group in a dungeon by being inept, then the redundancies probably seem like a good idea to them.

My highly opinionated take on this: They made healer oGCDs the "better" versions of their GCD counterparts which compounds to the problem of making GCD healing look bad.

SCHs had the better idea of what a good oGCD is. Take Emergency Tactics and Recitation. Both abilities do nothing on their own but it modifies the properties of Adloquium - one transforms the barrier to healing and the other negates the MP cost and guarantees a critical heal + Catalyze. You can also combine both and make a mini-Benediction.

As for Aetherflow abilities: Lustrate, Excogitation are way better than Physick(in my opinion should already be taken away and buff the potency of Embrace to compensate) but both are limited to a number of casts per minute. The complaints with regards to losing ED to heal is forgetting that GCD actions have the same dilemma. They just spend different resources but are technically the same tradeoff.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Oh I'm aware. I remember that one Golbez EX party I had where I made a dumb mistake and died, then my cohealer popped their "Swiftcast up in XX:XX" macro and proceeded to cast Glare 6 times without moving, then we wiped to Twin Meteor because not everyone is up.

It goes without saying that if you can cast Glare 4 times without moving, you can hardcast a Raise.

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I agree.

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Originally Posted by rawker

SCHs had the better idea of what a good oGCD is. Take Emergency Tactics and Recitation. Both abilities do nothing on their own but it modifies the properties of Adloquium - one transforms the barrier to healing and the other negates the MP cost and guarantees a critical heal + Catalyze. You can also combine both and make a mini-Benediction.

As for Aetherflow abilities: Lustrate, Excogitation are way better than Physick(in my opinion should already be taken away and buff the potency of Embrace to compensate) but both are limited to a number of casts per minute. The complaints with regards to losing ED to heal is forgetting that GCD actions have the same dilemma. They just spend different resources but are technically the same tradeoff.

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When you put it that way, that's probably why I almost exclusively play Scholar when and if I ever do heal, which isn't often. It's my favorite healer to play by far.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

It'll never not be funny to me that the general community treats the balance discord as a toxic elitist cesspool while simultaneously following their job guides like sheep.

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All this talk about "Balance" and how some in the community is glued to it in this game is dumb in my eyes. It's one of the reasons why Healers and a few other Jobs are in this mess. While balance is important in some degree as all Jobs should be able to clear content, the focus that the devs, and the community to some extent, should be making Jobs unique and fun to play.

FFXIV isn't a fighting game. Cut loose a little bit and allow the Jobs to flourish and be as unique as possible.

Though to be fair, there were a few fighting game devs that did try to oversimplify their games at some point in the past. The result was a mixed bag. Yes, their oversimplification did bring new players, but they didn't stay and play very long while veterans just quit on their title outright.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

Though to be fair, there were a few fighting game devs that did try to oversimplify their games at some point in the past. The result was a mixed bag. Yes, their oversimplification did bring new players, but they didn't stay and play very long while veterans just quit on their title outright.

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Unfortunately not analogous since, unlike a fighting game, FF14 can pull in plenty of profit from the people who sub for a month whenever a new story chapter drops, so it doesn't suffer nearly as much from having uninspired gameplay.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

All this talk about "Balance" and how some in the community is glued to it in this game is dumb in my eyes. It's one of the reasons why Healers and a few other Jobs are in this mess. While balance is important in some degree as all Jobs should be able to clear content, the focus that the devs, and the community to some extent, should be making Jobs unique and fun to play.

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Their obsession with "perfect balance" is the biggest issue with XIV job design.

The game take different shapes (aka jobs) - pyramid, cube, cylinder, cone, etc. And then over time removes all rough edges from them. Because players don't like them/they are making shapes too different. Eventually, after years of polishing, they all end up becoming same-looking balls. (Endwalker jobs sadly)

And if I wanted to play with a cube - too bad.

That's what happens when you want all jobs to be as close as possible to each other in terms of effectiveness. Balance is great, but in pursuit of it don't ruin the job identity and fun of playing it.

Watched Job Retrospective videos - this is mortifying how low the game has fallen.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

Yes, their oversimplification did bring new players, but they didn't stay and play very long while veterans just quit on their title outright.

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And this is what is already happening with XIV healers and will get increasingly worse in the future expansions without breaking the mold. Playing the neutered and boring class can only get you so far.

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Originally Posted by Remember_The_Name

Their obsession with "perfect balance" is the biggest issue with XIV job design.

The game take different shapes (aka jobs) - pyramid, cube, cylinder, cone, etc. And then over time removes all rough edges from them. Because players don't like them/they are making shapes too different. Eventually, after years of polishing, they all end up becoming same-looking balls. (Endwalker jobs sadly)

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I'd also argue that it's not as much that players don't like certain things, but more like "players don't like certain things." What I mean by this is that when we play games, in the moment, we have a tendency to complain about anything that gets in the way of us doing something right or perfectly. "Why is there a pillar right there!?" "Really? You could've have given me 1 more piece of ammo?" But that doesn't mean any particular aspect of a game is inherently bad or negative. Sometimes it is, but not always. I think the 2 minute meta is a product of taking these complaints very literally. Aligning raid buffs manually made the road to perfect play not a straight hallway, so naturally people will complain when they turn at the wrong places, but that doesn't mean those turns are bad design.

They seem to look at anything one could describe as "difficult" and translate that as "bad." A game having difficult or challenging elements (of which something like aligning raid buffs isn't actually that difficult, it's just not something that happened automatically and thus required a modicum of thought to do) is not bad. Going on a crusade to sand down every possible edge that even sounds like it could be difficult ends up removing all the details of the piece you're sanding down. And what's ironic is that it doesn't actually create a perfectly frictionless sphere. You end up creating new edges in this crusade. Not allowing healers to have more than 3-4 DPS buttons and constantly having to update their basic attack so that their personal DPS output can keep up with the solo content power creep means every expansion, spamming your basic attack becomes more and more important. They don't want healers to feel pressured to DPS, yet EW is the expansion with the highest pressure to DPS as much as possible because every GCD is its own burst window.

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Originally Posted by vetch

Unfortunately not analogous since, unlike a fighting game, FF14 can pull in plenty of profit from the people who sub for a month whenever a new story chapter drops, so it doesn't suffer nearly as much from having uninspired gameplay.

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To be fair, this did happen with fighting games in the past. Albeit, in a more extreme sense. When Street Fighter II launched in 1991 for example, four more versions of the same game released in the span of three years. Two being released in the same year (Street Fighter 2: Champion Edition & Street Fighter 2: Hyper Fighting). And you had to pay the FULL price of every iteration of the game!!

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Originally Posted by Remember_The_Name

And this is what is already happening with XIV healers and will get increasingly worse in the future expansions without breaking the mold. Playing the neutered and boring class can only get you so far.

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Street Fighter 5 and Guilty Gear: Strive say hi. Though the former has more baggage than the later. Tekken 8, which recently came out this past January, can be argued that the devs purposely made the game much easier and tailored it to casuals in many ways.

To be fair, a fighting game being simplified isn't as bad as simplifying an MMO.

In a fighting game, you do still have the unpredictability of your opponents that comes with being a PvP game. As long as they don't remove the skill ceiling with niche stuff you can do to counter, it's totally fine to make the game more accessible.

However, in an MMO, you fight a script, it never deviates, it's never unpredictable, it's always the same. In that scenario, if you make the way you play also always the same, you turn hard content into nothing but memorisation. The only challenge is how much information your brain can retain (which is also why 3rd party assist tools are on the rise, it alleviates cognitive load by having a machine tell you what to do).

Honestly speaking, if the fights were entirely random and unpredictable, the current kits might not be as bad, but given that everything is on a script, sanding down job gameplay is unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

Street Fighter 5 and Guilty Gear: Strive say hi. Though the former has more baggage than the later. Tekken 8, which recently came out this past January, can be argued that the devs purposely made the game much easier and tailored it to casuals in many ways.

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I can't speak for SF5 or GG, but I do play Tekken. I'm not all that competitive at it or that skilled at it in the sense that I'm no ranked player or dedicated Tekken streamer, but I do learn from different Tekken content creators. Like in T7, playing Lucky Chloe as my main, I was watching a lot of Kaizur who is a tournament-level Chloe main to learn from, and play a lot casually with one of my friends.

Tekken 8 offers the most resources in-game to help teach you how to play the game and understand many of its more intricate elements, and there are some things that have received more quality of life changes that do make certain things a little easier. It also added a new system that does let you basically play on auto mode where each button can be spammed to have your character perform a specific combo meant to be a different set of core combos for each button. That certainly helps the button masher perform better and look a bit cooler mashing buttons rather than just throwing out nothing but jabs and kicks. But at the end of the day, there is still an ocean of intricate elements that continue to make Tekken a very technical game. And that's exactly what we want to see, right? A game that's easy to learn and get into but difficult to master.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I can't speak for SF5 or GG, but I do play Tekken. I'm not all that competitive at it or that skilled at it in the sense that I'm no ranked player or dedicated Tekken streamer, but I do learn from different Tekken content creators. Like in T7, playing Lucky Chloe as my main, I was watching a lot of Kaizur who is a tournament-level Chloe main to learn from, and play a lot casually with one of my friends.

Tekken 8 offers the most resources in-game to help teach you how to play the game and understand many of its more intricate elements, and there are some things that have received more quality of life changes that do make certain things a little easier.

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True. I was, actually, referring to the Heat system and Tekken 8’s push toward aggressive play. So many characters gained new ways to skip the neutral game and be right in your face. And new players love that. Again, this isn’t a bad thing. The game is still fun and it’s only a few months old. New meta may emerge overtime, though series veterans are a bit turned off by the game’s current push toward aggression as past Tekken games focused more on a defensive play style.

The memories of 3.4 and stormblood are just too strong for them to let go. I remember them saying somewhere they try not to look back at the past expansions per say or something like that, it does feel that 2 parts, the shadows are always looming over their heads.