Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

A 20% CD on your lowest CD ability is still the biggest waste of your lilies.

Better than nothing.

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Originally Posted by Verdan

Better than nothing.

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Better than nothing is not the bar a video game maker should be seeking to cross when making new features. A piece of bread is better than nothing, but it's not going to sate you for long let alone actually be satisfying.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Better than nothing is not the bar a video game maker should be seeking to cross when making new features. A piece of bread is better than nothing, but it's not going to sate you for long let alone actually be satisfying.

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That's an opinion. Some people surely find bread to be satisfying and they make do with what they have instead of wishing they had more. Such people generally get more out of life, wouldn't you say? :)

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Better than nothing is not the bar a video game maker should be seeking to cross when making new features. A piece of bread is better than nothing, but it's not going to sate you for long let alone actually be satisfying.

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I'm not in disagreement, but it's better than "oh, your lilies just don't effect this ability for some reason!"

I think other healers are better atm, Lillies and Confessions are useless mechanics atm, imo a better idea is.

Lillies: Keep lillies, stack them to 3, but instead of cooldown reduction, give all or most of our abilities extra effects if they're casted with a lily (Press a new skill to activate a lily then the next skill we want, like swiftcast)
EG:
Medica 2: When casted with a lily it applys a small barrier to everyone.
Esuna: When casted with a lily it removes up to 3 debuffs from the player.
Asylum: When casted with a lily it also does damage to those who enter.
Aero 3: When casted with a lily it pulls all nearby targets to the target it's casted on

After using 3 lillies give us a cooldown before being able to get more, making us pick and time when we want to use them

Confessions I haven't thought of much yet, other than making our AoE heals and Regen apply them, at a higher % too (around 40) and give our 70 skill a higher cooldown.

Just some idea's IMO.

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Originally Posted by Ryorian

That's an opinion. Some people surely find bread to be satisfying and they make do with what they have instead of wishing they had more. Such people generally get more out of life, wouldn't you say? :)

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Sophistry. We're talking about a luxury product here; comparing player satisfaction with Job mechanics to people being content if they have at least bread to eat is a little off.

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Originally Posted by Anastacy

Wat?

/10char

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Never mind me that i thought that actually stands on the skills themselfes, too
Which it should
But it doesn't...
But Bensions tolltip is kinda confusing in relation to that either way, lol.

I just want to have as many abilities as the majority of the other classes.. They have like 26+ abilities I have 20.. WHY?

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Originally Posted by Jxnibbles

I just want to have as many abilities as the majority of the other classes.. They have like 26+ abilities I have 20.. WHY?

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Because you're basic!

Okay so after a few runs in the Deltascape as WHM I have another major concern you might want to add to the main post or at least point out, Reiryuu.

Esuna being removed from WHM, and set as a Job Action to share across all 3 healers (along with the removal of Leeches and Exalted Detriment) is not only unfair to White Mages for having one of their key abilities removed, but is also bloody gamebreaking in end-game raid content. I know this is WHM feedback, so bringing up SCH and AST abilities isn't really suited for here, but seeing how this pertains to something that belonged to White Mage I think it's important to bring up.

Imagine being in Deltascape V4.0 with two healers that don't run with Esuna. Now think about the fact that the Doom ailment exists, and that no changes have been made to it so in order to remove it from someone is to Esuna is. But, neither healers have Esuna. And neither are SCH, so they can't rely on a fairie to remove it for them. And there aren't any RDM's or BRD's to use their cooldown removals. The fact that Doom is in pretty much in all of the end-game raiding content, and no changes have been made to it so that it can be removed from full healing or other methods other than Esuna, basically forces all 3 healers to use up an Action slot with Esuna. Because if you don't run with it, you're going to get people killed because this is how this system works now. That is not a good change to gameplay. Instead of encouraging different kits and ability setups all it does is force us to all use the same stuff.

And don't even give me "Well because you've run it now you should know to set Esuna as one of your abilities when going into it." That should not be an excuse for poorly thought out execution of a battle system. Having to go in and swap out Job Actions based on the raid or dungeon you go into should not be something we have to do in order to stay useful and capable of running high end content. It's a tedious and broken system.

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Originally Posted by Iris_Lokspuhr

-Snip-

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WHM also happens to be the healer with the best tools to deal with that situation, considering Thin Air allows you to Raise at least two members with 0 MP cost. And as all three healers had access to Esuna, I don't really get why this is being labelled a 'WHM' problem. I acknowledge the Selene part, but with the current state of SCH, nobody is entering duties without Eos.

I do completely agree that Esuna/Leeches/Exalted Detriment should not have been put into the cross role system, as well as a few other abilities, but I really fail to see why this isn't a general complaint. It's not exclusive to WHM just because they decided to name the cross role version 'Esuna'.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

It's not exclusive to WHM just because they decided to name the cross role version 'Esuna'.

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The reason why is in the name. They took 4 of our abilities, changed the name and icon colours of two of them, and then put the 4 of them into the Job Action menu for the other healers to use. The fact they didn't even bother to change Esuna's name to something else is just another smack in the face to all us WHM mains as to how few unique abilities we now have. But that's just me.

Will probably make a new thread or find a more suitable to bring this up again as well but figured to drop it in here first to see if I'm not the only one with that thought.

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Originally Posted by Iris_Lokspuhr

The reason why is in the name. They took 4 of our abilities, changed the name and icon colours of two of them, and then put the 4 of them into the Job Action menu for the other healers to use. The fact they didn't even bother to change Esuna's name to something else is just another smack in the face to all us WHM mains as to how few unique abilities we now have. But that's just me.

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Then it is just you because that literally makes zero sense. All three healers had an Esuna, you're just complaining about a name and icon at this point, it's irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Iris_Lokspuhr

The reason why is in the name. They took 4 of our abilities, changed the name and icon colours of two of them, and then put the 4 of them into the Job Action menu for the other healers to use. The fact they didn't even bother to change Esuna's name to something else is just another smack in the face to all us WHM mains as to how few unique abilities we now have. But that's just me.

Will probably make a new thread or find a more suitable to bring this up again as well but figured to drop it in here first to see if I'm not the only one with that thought.

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Not really it was dumb they gave ast and sch a cleanse and not call it esuna. They do need to take esuna out role system tho. Esuna not very "optiona" when doom is casted on a party member

I would prefer our Lilies to increase spell speed instead of lowering cooldown for the three abilities.

Or keep the cooldown reduction but change our level 68 trait to Spell Speed:

1 Lily: 5%
2 Lilies: 10%
3 Lilies: 15%

https://i.imgur.com/yCRWcDH.gif

Saw this meme and just had to make it WHM appropriate... lol... better with sound.

https://youtu.be/WwYA7l1X8Yk

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

https://i.imgur.com/yCRWcDH.gif

Saw this meme and just had to make it WHM appropriate... lol... better with sound.

https://youtu.be/WwYA7l1X8Yk

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Lillies may be pretty good, whatever they are. But lilies aren't that great.

The core of White Mage complaints was always: hey these new things you're giving us are dumb.

This has not changed. Lilies are dumb and poorly implemented. Confessions are dumb and poorly implemented.

give whm a teleport or/and simply awider range as a compensation. furthermore make lily mechanic unique so it identifies the class. how about 50% increased spellpower for every lily you use.
can be used on any spell (heals and dmg) by activation such as doubleclicking within 1sec or activating a button to empower all skills.
and last but not least using lilys should have an animation such as lilys raining down on consumption.

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Originally Posted by Iris_Lokspuhr

The reason why is in the name. They took 4 of our abilities, changed the name and icon colours of two of them, and then put the 4 of them into the Job Action menu for the other healers to use.

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you know what is the best part? out of the 10 healer role skills, WHM could use 9 before SB.
cleric stance, break (stone I), protect, esuna, lucid dreaming (shroud of saints), and largesse (divine seal) have all been part of our native toolkit, and we got swiftcast, eye for an eye, and surecast from the cross-class system (as well as virus and Ice II)
now after SB, we only can take 5 of them, in addition to completely loosing stoneskin
and the only new thing we get from the role skills, rescue, is super situational at best on top of not even having enough role skill slots to ever take it

seriously, WHY?!?!?!?

my thoughts of what needs to be done:
1) every healer gets esuna as native skill.
2) WHM gets its original divine seal back. largesse can stay in the role skill system for the other healer, just make them share their cd (yes this would make largesse useless for WHM, but if we have the old devine seal back it does not matter)
3) add something actually useful on the now free 10th role slot where esuna was. an aoe 5% dmg reduce on 2 min cd or something like that would be great, or how about something like the new BRD pvp skill "battlefield march" to restore 25% MP and TP to the party (should not affect self) on a longer cd

While this has been said by quite a few people but Plenary Indulgence needs to change. For our big level 70 skill ... its meh.

I would change it in two ways (SE would balance it how they want). The first is the confession stacks proc via Regen and Medica II rather than Cure. This would at least mean you can use it for AoE healing more.

The second part I would do is add a skill which I am going to call Dia for now. This skill could do damage on a single target mob based on the total amount of confession stacks that is on the party and remove them once casted.

Lilies I admit ain't that bad beyond Divine Bension using them all up.

Agreed Lillies are poorly implemented - but can at least still be used if at all just for the shield. Plenary Indulgence is a joke. Its like saying, we don't know what to give the WHM so lets give a skill that will pretty much be useless. Its a lvl 70 skill for gods sake.

Whm is still real good without both of these but doesn't excuse this nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Lillies may be pretty good, whatever they are. But lilies aren't that great.

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Lilies are really good as they are. Divine Benison just needs to take one from the set of Lilies instead of all of them, and Plenary needs an increase to its percentage.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Lilies are really good as they are. Divine Benison just needs to take one from the set of Lilies instead of all of them, and Plenary needs an increase to its percentage.

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You're welcome to your opinion of them, I have mine. But if you like them so much, why aren't you maining WHM, if I may be so bold as to ask?

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Lilies are really good as they are.

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Yep, see them as decorative on my screen and they indeed are pretty nice looking :D

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Lilies are really good as they are. Divine Benison just needs to take one from the set of Lilies instead of all of them, and Plenary needs an increase to its percentage.

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Are you going to elaborate or...?

Anyway they are decent at best. They offer nothing in how a WHM is played, cool down reduction is next to useless on a WHM since you use your CDs when they are needed not when they are ready (except Assize, but its CD was already reduced for the expansion). Plenary needs to be completely reworked, as it is now it will never be balanced.

i stopped caring for lillies long ago. if i get some, good, if not, who cares. devine benison is the only problem here, but to be honest i rarely use it in dungeons anyway.

the whole lily system needs a massive rework to be worth more than just beeing there and looking good. the slight CD reduction is just not worth caring.

and for Plenary... well if they increase the chances to something like 50% (cure 1 and 2) and 100% (cure 3) then it could be great. any percentage less than that keeps it in the "nice to have once in a blue moon but whatever" department

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Lilies are really good as they are. Divine Benison just needs to take one from the set of Lilies instead of all of them, and Plenary needs an increase to its percentage.

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But I'm still not hitting DPS with Cure very often, so more percentage doesn't change the problem (along with it still being in the buff bar, against Stormblood's job rework design goal). Conceptually, PI doesn't work as is. Confessions should stack on the WHM instead, and you burn them when you cast PI to heal people with however many you have available.

Is it an OP thought to ask Cure 3 to generate a confession stack on EVERYONE it hits??

I mean it then turns Plenary into a pretty nice OCGD AOE heal too....

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Originally Posted by Pomelo

Is it an OP thought to ask Cure 3 to generate a confession stack on EVERYONE it hits??

I mean it then turns Plenary into a pretty nice OCGD AOE heal too....

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I had thought about this before. It would be... okay. The issue with it is that Cure III by itself is generally good enough to heal everyone to at least 85% after a stack happens. But it could be good as a "delayed" heal for when AoE will come out soon after a stack. It would alleviate even more MP usage for WHM...

I personally think the Confession stacks would be fine if they removed the timer. There's really no reason to have them be on a 30-second timer.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I personally think the Confession stacks would be fine if they removed the timer. There's really no reason to have them be on a 30-second timer.

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Totally agree. I feel with this change it would work in a very similar way to the Lady of Crowns on Astro, its also similar in potency depending on your confession stacks. It would be a nice little heal to have in your back pocket and I would use it frequently if the stacks hadn't disappeared every time I needed it.

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Originally Posted by Oohlalaheals

Totally agree. I feel with this change it would work in a very similar way to the Lady of Crowns on Astro, its also similar in potency depending on your confession stacks. It would be a nice little heal to have in your back pocket and I would use it frequently if the stacks hadn't disappeared every time I needed it.

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While I would agree with the timer, it would still see basically no use in raid content or even trials. It may possibly pop in some dungeons but do we need it there? Worst of all, its called AOE but it would probably take a miracle to even get 3 people with stacks.

Regardless, it is not worth a level 70 skill. Cure 1 is more useful than this.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Originally WHM had 18% stoneskin. 10% was the nerf version. Anyways, Benison looks decent on paper: oGCD, instant barrier, and 15% is not bad for that.

But then you add RNG gating... ...you can force it with cure II, but then you spend a GCD with cast time, probably overhealing, and suddenly it's not looking so great...

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I think you should look divine benison as spell to help with tank healing. Whenever there is a tank buster, and tank is running risk of dying, having a cure II follow up by a shield is a godsend. There is really no risk of overhealing here.

I see a lot of complains about divine bension and PI.
Id like to make a comparison here - how many of you actually try to heal harder content (Sus ex and lakshmi ex) without our new SB abilities. You are probably healing fine as it is and in fact might be better than other healers (AST, SCH) in term of healing. So do you think SE would give WHM more power, by making divine benision and PI to give more reliable healing? This directly buffing WHM throughput and i wouldnt be surprise the change will come with a nerf to WHM base healing. I do in fact agree the there is a problem with implementation of our new SB abilities. Im also well aware developer may want to keep WHM identity as pure healing so they really have not much choice here. They need to be more creative with WHM ability to keep us WHM happy.

No I suppose I didn't consider the skills were bad on purpose

as i said many times. lilys should give a 50% increase per lily on any skill you intend to use. so you can either increase single healing/damage, dots or aoe healing/damage. this would make it unique and very flexible. all you gotta do is active lilys odor and choose one of the empowered spells. Last but not least give lilys an optical update. after consuming a lily blossom fall on the ground or something...

what do we need cooldown for? its not like you hold all skills on CD all the time but use them when they are needed.

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Originally Posted by chs724

as i said many times. lilys should give a 50% increase per lily on any skill you intend to use.

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that might be a little powerful. To me, they should empower spells with different/stronger effects. EX:

Divine Benison:
0 lilies: 10%
1 lily: 13%
2 lilies: 16%
3 lilies: 20%

Assize
0 lilies: 300/300 10%MP
1 lily: 330/330 13%
2 lilies: 360/360 16%
3 lilies: 400/400 20%

Asylum
0 Lilies: as is (forgot the regen potency)
1 Lily: regen + MP regen (20 potency); +2TP/tick
2 Lilies: regen + MP regen (30 potency); +5TP/tick
3 Lilies: regen + MP regen (40 potency); + 7TP/tick

Tetra
0 Lilies: as is
1 Lily: adds 5% damage reduction for 20 secs
2 Lilies: adds 10% damage reduction for 20 secs
3 Lilies: adds 15% damage reduction for 20 secs

Is this balanced? Probably not, but the numbers can be tweaked to make it so. At least we would be gaining utility through heals this way.

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Originally Posted by MelvinK

So do you think SE would give WHM more power, by making divine benision and PI to give more reliable healing? This directly buffing WHM throughput and i wouldnt be surprise the change will come with a nerf to WHM base healing. I do in fact agree the there is a problem with implementation of our new SB abilities. Im also well aware developer may want to keep WHM identity as pure healing so they really have not much choice here. They need to be more creative with WHM ability to keep us WHM happy.

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Benison is fine except that it consumes all the lilies, but that's not the end of the world. PI is just a hot mess. It's clunky, difficult to use, and requires looking at buff bars, which is the exact opposite of Stormblood's stated design goals.

If they are afraid of giving WHM even more healing, then don't. Make PI offensive. Problem solved. WHM would still have no utility, but a stronger occasional nuke would provide extra personal DPS to help out a bit.