What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

When Thancred discovered the reflections would be abandoned, that would have been the perfect moment for him to show some backbone and aggressively lose his mind in protest. Full on Jack Garland. Instead, he just stood there and took it. A common trend we're seeing these days, I know.

In any case, the true "messiah" of the game was in fact Elidibus/Zodiark despite his monstrous appearance. Venat may have stubbornly believed her way was the only way inline with her supreme arrogance but rather than casting her down as quite literally a fallen angel whose pride damned all humanity, it's just a "trial of wills!" and then we move on to the full on hope vs. despair nonsense in Ultima Thule.

Please have the cast react like human beings and stop subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

That still sounds just like every other "Punch God" plot, to be honest.



But this was one of the few elements of the story that was handled with a modicum of maturity and nuance. After the Forum makes its proclamation, the Scions make it clear that they will not get in their way for executing their own plans to survive the Final Days because 1) their plans are horrific, but still better than the alternative of annihilation and 2) there isn't any time left to debate this. This was exactly the sort of grayish morality that the expansion should have had more of.

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But it literally gets rid of any nuance the scions had in ShB. Yshtola was skeptical of Hydaelyn,Thancred fought so much to save Ryne, yet here we are in EW, there’s no more skepticism of Hydaelyn from Yshtola, Thancred is somehow fine with a plan that would end in Ryne being killed, he says nothing about Minfilia being used as a vessel for hydaelyn and thrown away, and apparently everyone is fine with Krile serving as another vessel as well? Like come on now, this is 100% maximum bias towards Hydaelyn.

Also….this expansion literally was punch god. We literally unceremoniously offed both gods, who hardly got their own development this expansion, and now the alli raid is about punching more gods….it’s worse in every single way.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

But it literally gets rid of any nuance the scions had in ShB. Yshtola was skeptical of Hydaelyn,Thancred fought so much to save Ryne, yet here we are in EW, there’s no more skepticism of Hydaelyn from Yshtola, Thancred is somehow fine with a plan that would end in Ryne being killed, he says nothing about Minfilia being used as a vessel for hydaelyn and thrown away, and apparently everyone is fine with Krile serving as another vessel as well? Like come on now, this is 100% maximum bias towards Hydaelyn.

Also….this expansion literally was punch god. We literally unceremoniously offed both gods, who hardly got their own development this expansion, and now the alli raid is about punching more gods….it’s worse in every single way.

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And the result is now we are left in a world whose most interesting elements have been stripped away with a section of the playerbase who would gladly subject the rest of us to an expansion of nothing but going on picnics with G'raha Tia and the animation budget being blown on various cuisines and eating animations. Meanwhile the team that brought us Heavensward is still locked into FFXVI which shows no signs of coming out anytime soon, so no one knows when they'll be back if at all.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

When Thancred discovered the reflections would be abandoned, that would have been the perfect moment for him to show some backbone and aggressively lose his mind in protest. Full on Jack Garland. Instead, he just stood there and took it. A common trend we're seeing these days, I know.

In any case, the true "messiah" of the game was in fact Elidibus/Zodiark despite his monstrous appearance. Venat may have stubbornly believed her way was the only way inline with her supreme arrogance but rather than casting her down as quite literally a fallen angel whose pride damned all humanity, it's just a "trial of wills!" and then we move on to the full on hope vs. despair nonsense in Ultima Thule.

Please have the cast react like human beings and stop subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations.

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When I got to the Moon with the Watcher basically admitting that yes, Hydaelyn did constantly lie about basically everything... but it was for a good cause! I immediately just pictured my WoL going "bullshit" and walking away... or interrupting the guy. In fact I got up from my seat and did just that, because my nodding lobotomized tool of a self-insert would not.

Anyway, the real lesson here is that you suck and deserve to go extinct unless you go through a convoluted and specific series of events and impress/suck up to the right giga-narcissist who holds the shiny keys.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

That still sounds just like every other "Punch God" plot, to be honest.

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Both Elder Primals ended up being fought and killed, though.

I've never cared about Venat. To me, Hydaelyn always came across as shady, manipulative and unworthy of trust. The only time she was tolerable to me was during the Elpis storyline and even then it was ruined by the sheer weirdness of her reasoning for the Sundering and genocide of her people.

We learn that Zodiark did nothing wrong and was falsely painted as a villain. The Scions didn't even bother trying to defend him in any meaningful capacity and despite it being revealed that Zodiark was the true saviour of both past and present Etheirys, he's barely mentioned again.

Teaming up with the demonic looking guy who is actually benevolent would have been more satisfying to me than being forced to stick with the delusional self proclaimed 'supreme deity' who slaughtered her own people.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

When Thancred discovered the reflections would be abandoned, that would have been the perfect moment for him to show some backbone and aggressively lose his mind in protest. Full on Jack Garland. Instead, he just stood there and took it. A common trend we're seeing these days, I know.

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Umm, but he already knew. He asked the Watcher what would happened to the reflections and the Watcher confirms that they would also be destroyed. Then, just before they leave the moon, the Scions have already made up their minds that their primary focus is going to be on stopping the Final Days than running from it. Thancred flat out asks you to talk to Ryne before you go look for Elidibus and to tell her the truth and ask for her insights. She likewise gives you her blessing to focus on stopping the Final Days and says she believes in all of you. Thancred having a temper tantrum because the First would be abandoned would be redundant to what we'd already established and, furthermore, would have been absolutely pointless because there's no way for anyone except the Ascians and the WOL to travel between the worlds anyway.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

But it literally gets rid of any nuance the scions had in ShB. Yshtola was skeptical of Hydaelyn,Thancred fought so much to save Ryne, yet here we are in EW, there’s no more skepticism of Hydaelyn from Yshtola, Thancred is somehow fine with a plan that would end in Ryne being killed, he says nothing about Minfilia being used as a vessel for hydaelyn and thrown away, and apparently everyone is fine with Krile serving as another vessel as well? Like come on now, this is 100% maximum bias towards Hydaelyn.

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Minfilia chose to sacrifice herself to save the first. Krile flat out says multiple times that she chose to be used on the occasions Hydaelyn did it.

Again, I don't like Hydaelyn in EW either, but you guys are reaching too hard to find things to be angry about.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Both Elder Primals ended up being fought and killed, though.

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Both out of unfortunate necessity, though. I'm not against the fact that you had to fight and kill the elder primals. I would have been against yet another "Only Mankind is the true arbiter of morality and destiny!" message.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

We learn that Zodiark did nothing wrong and was falsely painted as a villain. The Scions didn't even bother trying to defend him in any meaningful capacity and despite it being revealed that Zodiark was the true saviour of both past and present Etheirys, he's barely mentioned again.

Teaming up with the demonic looking guy who is actually benevolent would have been more satisfying to me than being forced to stick with the delusional self proclaimed 'supreme deity' who slaughtered her own people.

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I mean, Zodiark was a skin suit for Fandaniel the one time you see him, soooo....

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Umm, but he already knew. He asked the Watcher what would happened to the reflections and the Watcher confirms that they would also be destroyed. Then, just before they leave the moon, the Scions have already made up their minds that their primary focus is going to be on stopping the Final Days than running from it. Thancred having a temper tantrum because the First would be abandon would be redundant to what we'd already established and, furthermore, would have been absolutely pointless because there's no way for anyone except the Ascians and the WOL to travel between the worlds anyway.



Minfilia chose to sacrifice herself to save the first. Krile flat out says multiple times that she chose to be used on the occasions Hydaelyn did it.

Again, I don't like Hydaelyn in EW either, but you guys are reaching too hard to find things to be angry about.



Both out of unfortunate necessity, though. I'm not against the fact that you had to fight and kill the elder primals. I would have been against yet another "Only Mankind is the true arbiter of morality and destiny!" message.



I mean, Zodiark was a skin suit for Fandaniel the one time you see him, soooo....

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No one is reaching. We went from almost half of the scions being suspicious of Hydaelyn to none at all in EW. That is a clear in favor of her, especially since you’d think if they’re already suspicious of her, being told about how she’s lied and kept secrets should make it even worse, but it doesn’t. Also, your argument is because they were pressed for time and worried about the final days? Funny how they didn’t seem that pressed when they were playing dress-up with rabbits, having lunch and coffee dates etc. Convenient.

I think the most jarring piece though is, we have Alphinaud have a huge speech in ShB that should, make him completely hate and dislike Hydaelyn.

Alphinaud once said in Shadowbringers that living in a Rejoined world would be against his beliefs, saying, "But what value is there in surviving when all our history, all our struggles will be erased? I cannot conscience such an act."

Yet he not once remarks upon this towards Hydaelyn, who literally did just that? Yeah no, very clear bias and there isn’t a reach going on.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Both out of unfortunate necessity, though. I'm not against the fact that you had to fight and kill the elder primals. I would have been against yet another "Only Mankind is the true arbiter of morality and destiny!" message.

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...but that's exactly what we ended up getting, though. Shadowbringers was presented as a battle between two opposing heroes seeking to safeguard their respective people and continue their existence. With the position Venat had put them both in, only one could emerge victorious. Endwalker decided to try and subvert that by pushing the idea that the Ancients deserved to be subjected to genocide because a nutty, unhinged individual decided to condemn them to endure the Final Days and when they didn't react how she wanted them to (with no attempt to tell them what she was worried about) she then opted to murder them all.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I mean, Zodiark was a skin suit for Fandaniel the one time you see him, soooo....

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Putting aside the simple fact that he didn't need to be merely a 'skin suit' the game will insist on non-entities such as Meteion, Alpha and Omega as being treated as living, breathing beings...so there was really no reason for the story to break those established rules for Zodiark. He was a being simply awaiting new orders from Elidibus but was performing the task of keeping Etheirys safe in the process.

Furthermore, he had countless Ancient souls held within him. We get a brief scene where they try to speak to the player character but they're quickly silenced. I felt that was missed potential - and sacrificing something inherently more engaging than a lengthy, unskippable cutscene involving G'raha eating a burger or Venat's WW2 style manifesto about why the Ancients supposedly needed to be wiped out for their own good.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

No one is reaching. We went from almost half of the scions being suspicious of Hydaelyn to none at all in EW.

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They flat out accuse Hydaelyn of hiding things from them several times. The entire reason they needed to get to the Aethereal Sea was to talk to her directly and find out what is going on. Y'shtola at several times questions Hyd's motives for not speaking to anyone.

You are correct, however, that nobody calls out her actions when they see her, though.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Also, your argument is because they were pressed for time and worried about the final days? Funny how they didn’t seem that pressed when they were playing dress-up with rabbits, having lunch and coffee dates etc. Convenient.

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The Loporritz were deliberately wasting your time and/or trying to convince you to abandon Etheirys entirely. The Scions needed to learn more about what the plans for the moon were.

The Scions only chose to relax and have "coffee dates" AFTER they barely averted or survived massive battles and traumatic risks. Hell, G'raha Tia was flat out overworking himself to the point of exhaustion because he was the Scion least took breaks.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I think the most jarring piece though is, we have Alphinaud have a huge speech in ShB that should, make him completely hate and dislike Hydaelyn.

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Again, yes, I agree that the narrative is biased towards Venat's actions. But that doesn't change the fact that some of the arguments you guys are making ("Oh no! How DARE Hydaelyn use poor Krile, even though she said multiple times that she was willing?") are still looking for things to be angry about.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

...but that's exactly what we ended up getting, though.

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Only in meta-text, though. Most of what people are angry about here is due to viewing the morals of the story outside of what the story itself intended. Again, I agree with that assessment, but it's not the story that was meant to be told.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Furthermore, he had countless Ancient souls held within him. We get a brief scene where they try to speak to the player character but they're quickly silenced. I felt that was missed potential

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I mean, would the WOL even know HOW to reach those souls after Fandaniel silenced them?

Besides, it's not like the WOL is even the one that killed Zodiark. All they did was defend themselves until Fandaniel killed Zodiark himself.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

They flat out accuse Hydaelyn of hiding things from them several times. The entire reason they needed to get to the Aethereal Sea was to talk to her directly and find out what is going on. Y'shtola at several times questions Hyd's motives for not speaking to anyone.

You are correct, however, that nobody calls out her actions when they see her, though.



The Loporritz were deliberately wasting your time and/or trying to convince you to abandon Etheirys entirely. The Scions needed to learn more about what the plans for the moon were.

The Scions only chose to relax and have "coffee dates" AFTER they barely averted or survived massive battles and traumatic risks. Hell, G'raha Tia was flat out overworking himself to the point of exhaustion because he was the Scion least took breaks.




Again, yes, I agree that the narrative is biased towards Venat's actions. But that doesn't change the fact that some of the arguments you guys are making ("Oh no! How DARE Hydaelyn use poor Krile, even though she said multiple times that she was willing?") are still looking for things to be angry about.

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Yes because the time that she uses Krile, it’s before we know the final days are actually coming, and it’s near the beginning of the expansion so Yshtola should still be skeptical of her, but she isn’t. It doesn’t matter if she’s willing but also….that again is my point, SHE SHOULDNT BE. Where is all of the suspicions and skepticism from ShB. It’s all done away. Krile is happy being Hydaelyn’s meat puppet. Yshtola and the others are fine with it, Thancred expresses no disapproval whatsoever even though he’d seen where it got Minfilia. I’m sorry but no, it’s the game bending over backwards for Hydaelyn, letting her do what she wants without any criticism whatsoever. It reminds me a bit of the games community tbh.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yes because the time that she uses Krile, it’s before we know the final days are actually coming, and it’s near the beginning of the expansion so Yshtola should still be skeptical of her, but she isn’t. It doesn’t matter if she’s willing but also….that again is my point, SHE SHOULDNT BE.

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Huh?!? We already knew the Final Days were coming because Fandaniel's plan was leading up to the breaking of Zodiark's seal. Hydaelyn uses Krile twice: once to give you the Elpis flower for the purpose of leading you to Elpis, and again to delay Fandaniel and Zenos so that you could potentially STOP Zodiark's seal from being broken and negate the entire problem.

Krile is a big girl and can make her own decisions.

Further, Y'shtola REPEATEDLY calls Hydaelyn's plans into question. She is constantly asking "What does Hydaelyn even want, and why isn't she talking to anyone directly?"

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Huh?!? We already knew the Final Days were coming because Fandaniel's plan was leading up to the breaking of Zodiark's seal. Hydaelyn uses Krile twice: once to give you the Elpis flower for the purpose of leading you to Elpis, and again to delay Fandaniel and Zenos so that you could potentially STOP Zodiark's seal from being broken and negate the entire problem.

Krile is a big girl and can make her own decisions.

Further, Y'shtola REPEATEDLY calls Hydaelyn's plans into question. She is constantly asking "What does Hydaelyn even want, and why isn't she talking to anyone directly?"

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Yes, yet somehow none of that questions or skepticism comes out when we’re finally face to face with her. The fact they don’t do any of that the one moment it would have mattered and made the most sense is pretty telling.

It doesn’t matter if Krile is a big girl or not. If your friend is being controlled by someone who had already gotten another friend indirectly killed by doing the same thing…are you really going to let them near that person again? Personally i’d keep my friend far away from that person, no matter the reason. It doesn’t matter if Minfilia consented or not. I mean, are we just gonna forget about the countless little girls that Hydaelyn used on the first as well? I highly doubt they consented but it’s funny that isn’t ever brought up is it. I just find it hilarious how people poke and prod at every little thing the ancients did “wrong.” And all of that is brought to the forefront throughout the story yet things like Hydaelyn using little girls as meat puppets isn’t.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yes, yet somehow none of that questions or skepticism comes out when we’re finally face to face with her. The fact they don’t do any of that the one moment it would have mattered and made the most sense is pretty telling.

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Again, I agree with this point. But the argument that Hydaelyn's actions were never doubted at all is just not true.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It doesn’t matter if Krile is a big girl or not. If your friend is being controlled by someone who had already gotten another friend indirectly killed by doing the same thing…are you really going to let them near that person again? Personally i’d keep my friend far away from that person, no matter the reason. It doesn’t matter if Minfilia consented or not.

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If my friend A) wanted it and B) claimed that it would be beneficial to our plans to, you know, save the world, yes I would.

People consent to things that kill them all the time. Especially when it comes to religion. Hell, in the era we live in right now, I'm not going to go and force a mask on someone's face or jab a syringe into them just because I'm worried they might die from COVID because of some silly religious/political beliefs.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I mean, are we just gonna forget about the countless little girls that Hydaelyn used on the first as well? I highly doubt they consented but it’s funny that isn’t ever brought up is it.

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Tbh, they've never really explained how that even worked. I'm not sure whether Hydaelyn was deliberately passing down that power or if it was just something automatic, like Gaia. I guess we'll see, if Ryne still has her powers even after Hydaelyn's gone.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I just find it hilarious how people poke and prod at every little thing the ancients did “wrong.” And all of that is brought to the forefront throughout the story yet things like Hydaelyn using little girls as meat puppets isn’t.

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People going too far in one direction doesn't make you correct when you go too far in the OTHER direction.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Meanwhile the team that brought us Heavensward is still locked into FFXVI which shows no signs of coming out anytime soon, so no one knows when they'll be back if at all.

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I would have so much more hype for 7.0 if I knew Maehiro wrote the outline and/or would be returning as the MSQ writer.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Shadowbringers was presented as a battle between two opposing heroes seeking to safeguard their respective people and continue their existence. With the position Venat had put them both in, only one could emerge victorious.

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This part is still so unforgivably sadistic to me. As if the fact that Venat sundering Azem, her protege, wasn't bad enough, she spares Emet, then knowingly pits the two against each other in a fight to the death. Once again, why in TF would I trust the person not only responsible for ending my original incarnation by splitting my soul asunder, but knowingly guiding me to the point that I had to kill one of the people who was dearest to me (and vice versa)? Frankly, on a psychological level, it's worse than any other antagonist in the game has done.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Again, I agree with this point. But the argument that Hydaelyn's actions were never doubted at all is just not true.



If my friend A) wanted it and B) claimed that it would be beneficial to our plans to, you know, save the world, yes I would.

People consent to things that kill them all the time. Especially when it comes to religion. Hell, in the era we live in right now, I'm not going to go and force a mask on someone's face or jab a syringe into them just because I'm worried they might die from COVID because of some silly religious/political beliefs.



Tbh, they've never really explained how that even worked. I'm not sure whether Hydaelyn was deliberately passing down that power or if it was just something automatic, like Gaia. I guess we'll see, if Ryne still has her powers even after Hydaelyn's gone.



People going too far in one direction doesn't make you correct when you go too far in the OTHER direction.

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Again, i’m not going too far in the other direction. Okay i’m sorry, Yshtola doubts her a couple times. Meanwhile the other scions? All blindly following hydaelyn. So sorry. Compare that to how the ascians and Zodiark are treated and yeah…. It really isn’t reaching too far. It’s painfully obvious that they retconned the whole suspicious of Hydaelyn thing. I mean if you want a better example, when we have the choice to bring up hydaelyn’s lies to the watcher, he simply says yeah she lied, and then that’s completely handwaved and he goes off on another tangent.Meanwhile how many storylines have we had now that revolved solely around “ascian bad and ebul!”

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Okay i’m sorry, Yshtola doubts her a couple times. Meanwhile the other scions? All blindly following hydaelyn.

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When? Most of the other Scions don't care about Hydaelyn one way or another. The twins are mostly focused on the human element (learning the Forum's plans, saving the Garleans, saving the Hannish, and then using the Ark ). Urianger decides to help the Loporritz with their plans for a while G'raha mostly speculates and conjectures, and comes up with the Elidibus plan. Thancred only cares about Ryne, and Estinien just wants things to stab.

Who, besides Krile, was "following Hydaelyn"? Hell, as I said, it was even repeated several times that they couldn't even figure out what she wanted.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Compare that to how the ascians and Zodiark are treated and yeah…. It really isn’t reaching too far.

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Again, Zodiark was already screwed by the time we could have any meaningful interaction with him. Hell, he's not even treated as a villain in the end.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It’s painfully obvious that they retconned the whole suspicious of Hydaelyn thing. I mean if you want a better example, when we have the choice to bring up hydaelyn’s lies to the watcher, he simply says yeah she lied, and then that’s completely handwaved and he goes off on another tangent.

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They didn't "retcon" it. They tried to negate it. You can literally start the expansion telling Hydaelyn you don't trust her, and the Scions (esp. Y'shtola) repeatedly bring up how suspicious they are of her plans. It isn't until the WOL goes to Elpis and becomes besties with Venat that the Scions stop suspecting her. And yes, THAT is definitely a valid fault of the story. As I said, I would have loved to have told Venat to drop her entire plan and tell the Convocation the truth.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Meanwhile how many storylines have we had now that revolved solely around “ascian bad and ebul!”

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I mean, they were gleefully scheming to eliminate "lesser" races. Though they were victims before and during the Sundering, it's also a fact that they turned into cackling, genocidal madmen over the millennia. The Ancients are basically different people from the Ascians, including the Unsunderd. Even Elidibus, prior to ShB, was only marginally different. Emet-Selch is really the gold standard for Ascians, but he was an exception and not a rule.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

As if the fact that Venat sundering Azem, her protege, wasn't bad enough, she spares Emet, then knowingly pits the two against each other in a fight to the death. Once again, why in TF would I trust the person not only responsible for ending my original incarnation by splitting my soul asunder, but knowingly guiding me to the point that I had to kill one of the people who was dearest to me (and vice versa)? Frankly, on a psychological level, it's worse than any other antagonist in the game has done.

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As far as we know, Venat did none of that. We're never told how the Unsundered survived the sundering, but we're never told it was a deliberate choice by her.

Likewise, Emet-Selch is the one who wanted to kill you. In fact, Emet-Selch flat out says at one point that he doesn't care about the lives of even Sundered Ascians because if one of them dies, they can just hop to a reflection and look for a different one. Venat is to blame for the sundering in the first place, but don't make excuses for Emet-Selch and the other Ascians. They did what they thought was right, but they still had nothing but contempt for sundered lives.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

As far as we know, Venat did none of that. We're never told how the Unsundered survived the sundering, but we're never told it was a deliberate choice by her.

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LL Q&A @ 3:41:25 - How did the unsundered escape being sundered?

Venat let Emet live on purpose. He happened to be with Lahabrea and Elidibus at the time and helped each other escape through a "crack" into the rift.

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Likewise, Emet-Selch is the one who wanted to kill you.

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Well, he had his chance and didn't take it instead choosing to befriend and journey with us. It wasn't until the WoL failed to contain the light aether of all the Lightwardens, something that would've been inconsequential to the Ancients, that he became disappointed. There's an interview with Yoshi-P about this somewhere too, about how Emet wanted to believe we were Azem but our failure made him think he was mistaken. It's part of why when we merge with Ardbert and he sees the shade of Azem he's still in denial. At that point, however, we had become the aggressors. Believe me, I would've loved to have had the option to sit and talk, but the game said I had to throw down. :P

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

LL Q&A @ 3:41:25 - How did the unsundered escape being sundered?

Venat let Emet live on purpose. He happened to be with Lahabrea and Elidibus at the time and helped each other escape through a "crack" into the rift.

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Got it. Well, good to have clarification on that, assuming they don't change their minds again. I accept that I was wrong, though.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Well, he had his chance and didn't take it instead choosing to befriend and journey with us. It wasn't until the WoL failed to contain the light aether of all the Lightwardens, something that would've been inconsequential to the Ancients, that he became disappointed. There's an interview with Yoshi-P about this somewhere too, about how Emet wanted to believe we were Azem but our failure made him think he was mistaken. It's part of why when we merge with Ardbert and he sees the shade of Azem he's still in denial. At that point, however, we had become the aggressors. Believe me, I would've loved to have had the option to sit and talk, but the game said I had to throw down. :P

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Yeah, my but my basic point was that Emet made his choices. The only reason he chooses to be civil with the WOL is because he thinks there's something unique about them that might A) prove that further Rejoinings aren't necessary or B) let the WOL remember their time as friends and join his side. I personally believe that even if he didn't care about killing other "Sundered" Ascians, he probably would have made an exception for Azem and fought to protect them no matter what. But, his cruelty and contempt for everyone else was still his own doing. (Which is, of course, what makes him such a compelling antagonist.)

If we had gone with the option of helping them defeat the Final Days for good and allow their society to keep surviving then our ability to go back to Elpis and do fates would’ve made far more sense than it does now. After going back there to help them, we return to the tower and then, on our way out, we watch 12k years proceed in hyper speed until the new timeline is back up to speed parallel to ours. Thanks to the reverse-engineered powers of Omega we now have the ability to travel space-time and hop timelines, giving us access to Elpis as a zone that looks mildly different than it did during its msq arc. I feel it wouldn’t look too too different because 12k years isn’t that long for the ancients, maybe a few new structures here and there.

That would’ve also made for huge potential for an emotional moment with Emet when we contact his soul somehow. He’d get a chance to see his world, and a version of himself, all in one piece living a better future.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

If we had gone with the option of helping them defeat the Final Days for good and allow their society to keep surviving then our ability to go back to Elpis and do fates would’ve made far more sense than it does now. After going back there to help them, we return to the tower and then, on our way out, we watch 12k years proceed in hyper speed until the new timeline is back up to speed parallel to ours. Thanks to the reverse-engineered powers of Omega we now have the ability to travel space-time and hop timelines, giving us access to Elpis as a zone that looks mildly different than it did during its msq arc. I feel it wouldn’t look too too different because 12k years isn’t that long for the ancients, maybe a few new structures here and there.

That would’ve also made for huge potential for an emotional moment with Emet when we contact his soul somehow. He’d get a chance to see his world, and a version of himself, all in one piece living a better future.

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Agreed, it'd make much more sense.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

LL Q&A @ 3:41:25 - How did the unsundered escape being sundered?

Venat let Emet live on purpose. He happened to be with Lahabrea and Elidibus at the time and helped each other escape through a "crack" into the rift.



Well, he had his chance and didn't take it instead choosing to befriend and journey with us. It wasn't until the WoL failed to contain the light aether of all the Lightwardens, something that would've been inconsequential to the Ancients, that he became disappointed. There's an interview with Yoshi-P about this somewhere too, about how Emet wanted to believe we were Azem but our failure made him think he was mistaken. It's part of why when we merge with Ardbert and he sees the shade of Azem he's still in denial. At that point, however, we had become the aggressors. Believe me, I would've loved to have had the option to sit and talk, but the game said I had to throw down. :P

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Yeah, it's this one.

Would anyone here call Ramuh evil? A primal that sought to protect their section of the forest from invaders such as the Garleans or the Adders or the Scions or even us. A primal that only tempered Sylphs as a defensive measure. A primal that, in order to prove our worth to them, we had to fight in combat and eventually take down. That by proving ourselves, we have shown we are capable of protecting the Sylphs, their future is entrusted to us.

Would anyone here call Hydaelyn evil? A primal that sought to protect the thirteen reflection worlds and the source world from the invaders of the Ascians and of Meteion. A primal that only tempered Menphilia as a defensive measure and way to speak with us, eventually giving Menphilia her own will back. A primal that, in order to prove our worth to them, we had to fight in combat and eventually take down. That by proving ourselves, we have shown we are capable of protecting the star and inhabitants, that all those peoples future is entrusted to us.

The WOL? Never tempered. It was just a traveler's ward to protection from aether being corrupted, such as by way of tempering. We always had free will, and the WOL always strived to do good.

Yes, Hydaelyn was evil. Her hubris and her questionable motivations stand on logic with the consistency of sand. Whether she sees herself as such is another matter entirely. Her role is that of a fallen angel who is responsible for a Celestial Schism which saw all of humanity condemned to a world of suffering, and the loss of the equivalent of the Garden of Eden.

There were likely other ways to resolve the Meteion situation, but instead time-travelling-memory-wipes had to be thrown into the mix. For some reason.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Would anyone here call Hydaelyn evil? A primal that sought to protect the thirteen reflection worlds and the source world from the invaders of the Ascians and of Meteion. A primal that only tempered Menphilia as a defensive measure and way to speak with us, eventually giving Menphilia her own will back. A primal that, in order to prove our worth to them, we had to fight in combat and eventually take down. That by proving ourselves, we have shown we are capable of protecting the star and inhabitants, that all those peoples future is entrusted to us.

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Thirteen and one worlds that were "created" at the expense of a people whose culture was wiped out and buried with even the real name of the world hidden. And the Ascians who turned out to be the native inhabitants of said crushed and shattered world, who wanted to correct what they saw as a huge mistake without knowledge of the actual cause. And she had full knowledge this would occur thanks to timeloop chicken/egg paradox. Even then, I don't think anyone argued that her actions didn't benefit the Sundered...

It's basically as dark grey as you can get but is treated pretty much as 'white' by our heroic beneficieries who don't seem to care at all. That sucks, but I got mine!

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Yes, Hydaelyn was evil. Her hubris and her questionable motivations stand on logic with the consistency of sand. Whether she sees herself as such is another matter entirely. Her role is that of a fallen angel who is responsible for a Celestial Schism which saw all of humanity condemned to a world of suffering, and the loss of the equivalent of the Garden of Eden.

There were likely other ways to resolve the Meteion situation, but instead time-travelling-memory-wipes had to be thrown into the mix. For some reason.

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By that logic Emet is evil. Eldibius is evil. Hermes is evil. I agree the whole of the ancient plot is bad, and Meteion is the single dumbest character in the whole of 14.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Yes, Hydaelyn was evil.

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And the memory wipe was caused by not Hydaylen.

The ascians, a terrorist organization, who killed untold millions of lives across the 13 Reflections AND the Source in a misguided attempt to a free their god. Said imprisoned god, was being used as a shield to keep a thick and dense membrane layer around the source to protect it from Meteion's corrupting influence. That when Zodiark was gone, we saw the effects of what happened, that people transformed into Blasphmies and killed their loved ones and neighbors.

After all, why the worlds are filled with suffering, who helped escalate that into cataclymisc levels? Oh right, the ascians.

Oh and to add to the suffering pile, who made the voidsent and sin eaters? Ascians. Ya know things that wantonly kill others, corrupt people into monstrosties, that these things feed off the aether of living people.

Or hey, who taught the various beast tribes a flawed version of creation magic that would result in the primals summoned in this manner to have a compulsion to assimilate aka temper others? A S C I A N S.

Also said primal summonings were augmented with live sacrifice, that if it weren't beast tribe, we would be talking about human sacrifical rites.

Hey, ya know how an ascian can 'possess' someone and take over their body and rob them of free will? That is a variation of the same tempering magic that is instilled into their primals. That said primals without ascian meddling would be far far far far more benevolent than what we actually encountered.

Or hey even if you want to justify it with Elidibus or Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus, on how you want to have sympathy for them. Its only understandable if you mean the post-mortem versions of them whose souls were cleansed in the astral sea and so they might actually be the proper people they were meant to be rather than what caused the great evils.

Or hey lets go back to Zodiark. Okay lets say the Ascians freed him, the heart was Elidbus and he never got defeated by us. What was their grand plan with Zodiark? Oh you know to sacrifice half the world's population to restore the lives of their people as that is how Zodiark works, sacrifice half of the people to get the desired result. Of more powerful entitys who view the average human, you and me, as flawed and imperfect disgusting things that according to them have no right to exist and are merely mistakes. Of human lives only being viewed as chattel and a thing to be sacrificed later for ascians.

If you think Hydaelyn is still evil after all this, I don't know what to tell you.

Hythlodaeus did nothing wrong.





(unless you count him enabling terrible ideas)

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

If you think Hydaelyn is still evil after all this, I don't know what to tell you.

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She literally caused all of this though. If Venat had told her people what was going on they perhaps could have stopped the final days then and there and there wouldn’t be all of this suffering. She is literally to blame. Also yes, she did cause the memory wipe. We’re literally told and shown this, the sundering mind wiped everyone and it seems to have been entirely intended.She then lied and kept secrets on the origins of the world.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

She literally caused all of this though. If Venat had told her people what was going on they perhaps could have stopped the final days then and there and there wouldn’t be all of this suffering. She is literally to blame. Also yes, she did cause the memory wipe. We’re literally told and shown this, the sundering mind wiped everyone and it seems to have been entirely intended.She then lied and kept secrets on the origins of the world.

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Technically you would have to put that as a fault of the Warrior of Light for telling Venat. As according to us, who was told by Elidibus, we can't change the events of the past if we want to properly return to our timeline. If Venat had done what you wanted her to do, there would be none of the people who currently exist in our timeline. There is no Thancred, no Y'shtola, no Ryne, no Alisaie, no Alphinaud, no Estinien, no Haurchefant, no Ser Aymeric. Among many other people.

And what would happen is you created a branching alternate timeline where the Ascians successfully beat back Meteion, but doomed the main timeline in the process.

Pretty ascian talk if you think that is fine. What with sacrificing all those lives.

And even if people still think Hydaylen is evil because of suffering, news flash, our real world is filled with suffering and its how you actually go about your daily life to trudge through the suffering to actually have a semblance of a pleasant life. Which is what Hydaylen was doing, trudging through all that misery for hope of a better tomorrow.

Yay morality debates this site hasn’t had enough of those right?

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Originally Posted by anhaato

Yay morality debates this site hasn’t had enough of those right?

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Its part and parcel to the story.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

If you think Hydaelyn is still evil after all this, I don't know what to tell you.

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If you think everything the Ascians did was evil, given the fact that she set Emet-Selch aside, knowing what would happen from what you told her, then by extension so is she in part. You're basically complaining about what the Ascians did, ignoring all the context behind it. And sorry but if the Ascians are a "terrorist" organisation, what does that make her, who sundered their people and the star? Give me a break. You can blame them all you like. As per the Q&A, she enabled this, so if they're to blame, so is she.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

And even if people still think Hydaylen is evil because of suffering, news flash, our real world is filled with suffering and its how you actually go about your daily life to trudge through the suffering to actually have a semblance of a pleasant life. Which is what Hydaylen was doing, trudging through all that misery for hope of a better tomorrow.

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If someone tried to lobotomise me or maim me because they thought my life could do with a bit more suffering, yes, I'd have a problem with that.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

And even if people still think Hydaylen is evil because of suffering, news flash, our real world is filled with suffering and its how you actually go about your daily life to trudge through the suffering to actually have a semblance of a pleasant life. Which is what Hydaylen was doing, trudging through all that misery for hope of a better tomorrow.

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Yes, her introduction of en-masse suffering to an otherwise peaceful world is very much in line with evil given the context of the situation. Call it original sin, celestial schism, etc, what she did destroyed mankind's paradise, robbed them of immortality, all while positioning herself as a "supreme deity" when she was little more than a prideful human herself.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

You're basically complaining about what the Ascians did, ignoring all the context behind it.

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No I explained the context behind it. You are sticking fingers in your ears because you don't want to believe.

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And sorry but if the Ascians are a "terrorist" organisation, what does that make her, who sundered their people and the star?

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A person who saved the star and prevented their own people, the ancients, in future generations from being used as sacrifices to help power the machine that is Zodiark.

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she enabled this, so if they're to blame, so is she.

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Group of people who murdered millions of people across the 14 worlds VS person who created the 14 worlds. You going to side with the mass murderers on this? Fascinating.

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If someone tried to lobotomise me or maim me because they thought my life could do with a bit more suffering, yes, I'd have a problem with that.

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So if someone tempered you, would have a problem with that? So you would have a problem with the Ascians. As that is their shtick.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Yes, her introduction of en-masse suffering to an otherwise peaceful world is very much in line with evil given the context of the situation. Call it original sin, celestial schism, etc, what she did destroyed mankind's paradise, robbed them of immortality, all while positioning herself as a "supreme deity" when she was little more than a prideful human herself.

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Yep. Let's also not forget that she technically condemned multiple other worlds to destruction by not making the Ancients aware of Meteion's existence. Just imagine how many worlds were destroyed in the time between the Sundering and the present day - because by all accounts, Meteion was still sending energy out into the universe in an attempt to destroy all of existence.

(It's also hilarious to consider that Venat had an issue with the Ancients living peacefully behind the barrier that Zodiark created...but left the Sundered living in ignorance of the threat behind the barrier for thousands of years. Then when they beat Meteion it was after being carried hard by Unsundered entities.)

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

No I explained the context behind it. You are sticking fingers in your ears because you don't want to believe.

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Nah, you're not "explaining" anything, so lose the patronising tone. You're trying to list out the actions of the Ascians while ignoring what set those in motion. We're all familiar with what the Ascians did. You're not addressing the fact that she allowed for this.

She genocided her people and allowed Emet-Selch to escape the sundering while never being explained to why this was all happening, so she basically set in motion what would become the Ascians. Her goal in sundering the world has nothing to do with stopping the sacrifices as such, because they were not interminable; it is because of her belief that her people would end up like the Plenty, and secondarily, to enable easier manipulation of dynamis.

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Group of people who murdered millions of people across the 14 worlds VS person who created the 14 worlds. You going to side with the mass murderers on this? Fascinating.

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Worlds created through genocide of the ancients, yes. Let us look at it this way. If Hydaelyn rocked up in front of the Scions, told them they had to be sundered because, lo after all these thousands of years, she's now decided they're still too wed to the notion of improving the world through "better tomorrows", and not to worry, because even though this would end them as a species, more life would spring out of it, what do you think the answer would be? Maybe something like this?

https://i.imgur.com/zIOeuPv.jpg

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So if someone tempered you, would have a problem with that? So you would have a problem with the Ascians. As that is their shtick.

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If you're here to whine about the Ascians, go find some other tree to bark up. We're aware of what the Ascians got up to.

A society without conflict is boring and makes for a poor story anyway. Venat just did what the writers should've done and made them cease to exist.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

-snip-

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For the current timeline, the main timeline, to exist, everything had to proceed without interruption. Checkmate bub.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

For the current timeline, the main timeline, to exist, everything had to proceed without interruption. Checkmate bub.

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You'd best tell her that:

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Venat: We must find a way to defeat despair. To unite and prepare as many as possible for the struggle ahead.
Venat: Heavy will weigh the burden of guiding this legion of souls...
Venat: Yet I have faith in mankind's potential. As long as he believes in himself, there is naught he cannot achieve. So I will not give up on him. On us.
Venat: You may find your world to be very different. Or perhaps the erasure of our friends' memories has sown the seeds of a conjunction between us.
Venat: We cannot know until the moment is at hand. So shall I strive to do my best, taking naught for granted as I walk my path.

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But by that logic, everything the Ascians do is essential and necessary as well.

Checkmate "bub".

At this point I get the impression you really aren't going to engage with any arguments and are just here to preach. Not interested.

A common sentiment throughout this thread has been that although it makes sense for the Sundered to do everything possible in order to ensure their continued existence, so too does it make sense for the Unsundered to the same.

I'm not particularly interested in entertaining the delusions of a self proclaimed 'supreme deity' by pretending as if the genocide of her own people was the only path forward. We can safely deduce that it wasn't the only path forward, since she deliberately avoided informing them of the threat that Meteion posed and toyed with their lives by standing back and allowing the Final Days to occur with no forewarning.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Technically you would have to put that as a fault of the Warrior of Light for telling Venat. As according to us, who was told by Elidibus, we can't change the events of the past if we want to properly return to our timeline. If Venat had done what you wanted her to do, there would be none of the people who currently exist in our timeline. There is no Thancred, no Y'shtola, no Ryne, no Alisaie, no Alphinaud, no Estinien, no Haurchefant, no Ser Aymeric. Among many other people.

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Sounds like a perfect paradise to me. No annoying perfect scions or annoying bratty twins? Sign me up!

Hydaelyn is evil because she committed mass genocide. End of discussion.