Dark Knight Megathread

Speaking of all that, I'm sure the devs are wary of making TBN DPS positive, but would it be a huge deal to add a +10 or even +20 Blood gain to it if it pops? You still have to be careful using it otherwise you waste an Edge trying to gain such a small amount of blood, but it's still a nice bit of extra reward for timing it right.

I wouldn't say best expansion for DRK since heavensward, the class still feels incredibly barebone to me. The only unique thing it has being TBN risk/reward but it is so little it's not as satisfying as it was before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by baklava151

Speaking of all that, I'm sure the devs are wary of making TBN DPS positive, but would it be a huge deal to add a +10 or even +20 Blood gain to it if it pops? You still have to be careful using it otherwise you waste an Edge trying to gain such a small amount of blood, but it's still a nice bit of extra reward for timing it right.

---

I think you're missing the point though.

The issue there isn't "potentially wasting an Edge if you're too cautious with TBN", it's "will people abuse TBN for the sake of dealing damage?"

Because TBN is the only on-demand that has a direct impact on DPS. No matter what you do, you cannot game BW/HS/HoC into damage (nor against damage) because they're completely divorced from it. TBN impacts DPS output, but it's not made to be a damage skill – this is why it's only neutral.

You create even a slight DPS gain for an on-demand, and that adds up over time as essentially a rotational skill equivalent to the DPS gain of a positional. You're not encouraged to use TBN when you see a big hit coming, you're encouraged to seek big hits to burst TBN on cooldown.

(And in such a case, unless you're exceeding 12000 MP gain per minute, Edge and Flood become a DPS loss without DA. And we don't even have the MP gain right now to utilize its shorter cooldown; considering those big hits aren't hard to find, the proper use of TBN involves knowing how to prioritize them.)

You have to remember that "a bit of extra reward" is literally just a difference of personal mindset from "a requirement for optimal output that you're penalized for not utilizing."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by baklava151

...

---

MP and Blood both have a potency value attached.

The difficulty with short recast mitigation carrying even marginal dps benefits is that players start using them on recast. We saw this in Stormblood when Sheltron gave MP on block along with a Swipe proc. It also meant that many PLD players felt like Intervention was a waste. You do see outlier cases like Vengeance, but I suppose the 'reasoning' (as much as I dislike it) is that it's on a much longer recast.

The one solution that hasn't been looked at yet is rewarding players for using short recasts on specific boss actions, like red arrow tankbuster attacks. You could either give a special dps proc off of it, or unlock a 'counter attack' similar to Chelonian Gate or Cold Fog. That eliminates the pressure to use the ability on recast, while giving tank damage dealing a bit of extra flavor to distinguish it from melee dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archwizard

I think you're missing the point though.

The issue there isn't "potentially wasting an Edge if you're too cautious with TBN", it's "will people abuse TBN for the sake of dealing damage?"

Because TBN is the only on-demand that has a direct impact on DPS. No matter what you do, you cannot game BW/HS/HoC into damage (nor against damage) because they're completely divorced from it. TBN impacts DPS output, but it's not made to be a damage skill – this is why it's only neutral.

You create even a slight DPS gain for an on-demand, and that adds up over time as essentially a rotational skill equivalent to the DPS gain of a positional. You're not encouraged to use TBN when you see a big hit coming, you're encouraged to seek big hits to burst TBN on cooldown.

(And in such a case, unless you're exceeding 12000 MP gain per minute, Edge and Flood become a DPS loss without DA. And we don't even have the MP gain right now to utilize its shorter cooldown; considering those big hits aren't hard to find, the proper use of TBN involves knowing how to prioritize them.)

You have to remember that "a bit of extra reward" is literally just a difference of personal mindset from "a requirement for optimal output that you're penalized for not utilizing."

---

I agree people would try to optimize the hell out of it, that's where I'm trying to figure out if the risk balances out the reward in this case and would prevent people from spamming TBN when they can. Ultimately though it's probably not a can of worms worth opening so I won't die on that hill

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

MP and Blood both have a potency value attached.

The difficulty with short recast mitigation carrying even marginal dps benefits is that players start using them on recast. We saw this in Stormblood when Sheltron gave MP on block along with a Swipe proc. It also meant that many PLD players felt like Intervention was a waste. You do see outlier cases like Vengeance, but I suppose the 'reasoning' (as much as I dislike it) is that it's on a much longer recast.

---

I was comparing TBN to SAM's Third Eye and Vengeance to see why those could be a DPS gain, I think the other factor is that neither of those are targetable like TBN which lessens the opportunities to use them (and of course SAM not being a tank isn't getting hit by autos and TBs).

Quote:

---

The one solution that hasn't been looked at yet is rewarding players for using short recasts on specific boss actions, like red arrow tankbuster attacks. You could either give a special dps proc off of it, or unlock a 'counter attack' similar to Chelonian Gate or Cold Fog. That eliminates the pressure to use the ability on recast, while giving tank damage dealing a bit of extra flavor to distinguish it from melee dps.

---

Could be a cool idea

It's a fair point.

You know what? We should just ask the dev team at the next Q+A what their official philosophy is on it, rather than speculating.

I'm always lost when people are complaining about how many removed mechanics Dark Knight has been through, and then turn around and beg for them to remove more mechanics from Dark Knight.

Now, with regards to the greater TBN argument, my take:

Heart of Corundum and Bloodwhetting/Nascent Flash can be used every 25 seconds.
The resources for Holy Sheltron/Intervention/Cover can be generated about every ~22.5 seconds, are only usable on other defensive utilities, and can be stored as charges for use up to twice in a row.
The resources for TBN can be stored for 3 casts... but it still has the hard CD of 15 seconds minimum between uses, a soft CD through its MP generation that means you will not have the resources to consistently use it every 15 seconds so the "shorter cooldown" is largely theoretical, and shares resources with damage skills that are a necessary part of our rotation so that failure to use TBN efficiently results in a damage penalty. Functionally, it's the worst of both worlds.

Now, on a design front, there are easier ways to accomplish having TBN be a more versatile defensive tool without resorting to the competing MP resource -- for instance, just giving it charges not unlike Oblation in its own kit or, for no other reason than proof of concept, Holy Sheltron.
The primary reason to maintain the competing MP resource is to preserve the illusion of a "counterattack" element, while also maintaining damage neutrality. However, this comes at the expense of the versatility of our MP-based toolkit: while Heavensward and Stormblood provided a small plethora of recastable utility spells and allowed MP to be used on Dark Arts, Shadowbringers and Endwalker have limited the job only to a pair of redundant oGCD options as alternative uses for MP, which cannot be altered without making our already bland DPS toolkit even more braindead. This is in spite of the job being designed and billed as the "magical tank" and progressively losing its magic, so that our main magical element is... what, Living Shadow?

Is this the same as saying TBN is at fault for our kit as it is? No, you can't blame the piece of gum for holding back the dam. As has been pointed out many times, TBN itself was concurrent with several MP-based skills in Stormblood, though its practicality at the time is another matter entirely since it was a rather different skill back then and the devs clearly moved on from that design for one reason or another.
However, do I think preserving the current design of TBN provides an obstacle for designs to expand the kit further? Yes. Especially when points of contention include DRK's lack of sustainability or utility -- things taken away with the shift in MP skills in ShB -- or the blandness of its damage toolkit which hangs heavily on its pool of oGCDs. Any new MP skill has to be weighed against the DPS value of both TBN and the Darkside skills and, as we've already discussed, any shift in Dark Arts' interaction has to consider the potential to abuse TBN for damage gain beyond the scope of its intent as a defensive tool, which I believe was one of its failings in Stormblood when it provided Blood Gauge.

In short, as of right now, TBN is designed to only account for Edge and Flood. Forever. That's... pretty limiting.

I would also point out that there are ways to preserve damage neutrality AND maintain the counterattack without resorting to having TBN on the same resource as a pair of damage skills. For instance, in PvP we see the option to have Dark Arts negate an HP cost on a damage skill that is otherwise a part of the rotation, effectively increasing the job's sustainability. There are creative ways you can use to reflect that in PvE, including but not limited to just copying the PvP interaction wholesale.

On the other hand, whether DRK needs to preserve the counterattack element in any theoretical future iterations is another issue entirely. One could argue that it serves to further inflate the myriad themes of the kit while diminishing each to make room, not unlike SMN's previous positions both as DoT and Pet Mage, and that such a position itself was largely outmoded with the change in DRK's kit come Shadowbringers and the removal of, say, Dark Dance/Reprisal and Blood Price.
Personally I could see either argument there, especially when I feel like GNB is a job that flounders from lack of its own distinctive tanking niche, though "trading elements between tanks to give them to tanks who might be better served from them (either thematically or mechanically)" is apparently a taboo suggestion. But, flipside, counterattacking is a core part of making TBN unique so, whatever.

If the proc given by TBN breaking gave benefits other than damage (such as the next Edge/Flood applying a debuff) it'd make it rewarding without throwing the damage balance out of wack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archwizard

Is this the same as saying TBN is at fault for our kit as it is? No, you can't blame the piece of gum for holding back the dam. As has been pointed out many times, TBN itself was concurrent with several MP-based skills in Stormblood, though its practicality at the time is another matter entirely since it was a rather different skill back then and the devs clearly moved on from that design for one reason or another.
However, do I think preserving the current design of TBN provides an obstacle for designs to expand the kit further? Yes. Especially when points of contention include DRK's lack of sustainability or utility -- things taken away with the shift in MP skills in ShB -- or the blandness of its damage toolkit which hangs heavily on its pool of oGCDs. Any new MP skill has to be weighed against the DPS value of both TBN and the Darkside skills and, as we've already discussed, any shift in Dark Arts' interaction has to consider the potential to abuse TBN for damage gain beyond the scope of its intent as a defensive tool, which I believe was one of its failings in Stormblood when it provided Blood Gauge.

In short, as of right now, TBN is designed to only account for Edge and Flood. Forever. That's... pretty limiting.

---

I don't think it's TBN that's necessarily the limiting factor in this case, if we're talking about adding more MP spenders to spice up the kit then it's more how to make sure Edge and the new MP spender don't have a clear winner in every situation. Two ways I can think of is a) new spender does more damage but doesn't add Darkside and b) new spender has a CD. I think it'd be possible to add both of those with a 3K MP cost and they'd fit in perfectly fine with TBN. I can't think of a reason for them not to cost 3K MP but if they do need to then limit Dark Arts to only working on Edge/Flood.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by baklava151

I don't think it's TBN that's necessarily the limiting factor in this case

---

Again, I don't think TBN's exclusively at fault. I just think its current design, particularly around Dark Arts, is an obstacle. It would be more accurate to say it's an issue of the Darkside abilities as a whole, but TBN is presently balanced around them as its counterattacks, which reinforces the issue.

Quote:

---

if we're talking about adding more MP spenders to spice up the kit then it's more how to make sure Edge and the new MP spender don't have a clear winner in every situation. Two ways I can think of is a) new spender does more damage but doesn't add Darkside and b) new spender has a CD. I think it'd be possible to add both of those with a 3K MP cost and they'd fit in perfectly fine with TBN. I can't think of a reason for them not to cost 3K MP but if they do need to then limit Dark Arts to only working on Edge/Flood.

---

That's a marginal difference though, and only adds buttons for the sake of buttons; at best you find yourself alternating which of the two you use in the rotation every thirty-ish seconds, and the choice isn't particularly meaningful since you're still focused on which does optimized damage, particularly based on what's compatible with Dark Arts.

If you compare it to the days of original!Dark Arts granting increased healing or enmity or causing attacks to inflict Blind, as well as the potential growth into other sources of mitigation and utility -- tools that actually expand our gameplay and ability to react situationally -- our immediate use of MP for almost exclusively damage purposes and to limit TBN remains pretty narrow, even in that scenario.

Right now, you can't really diversify our use of MP without adding buttons that are all basically equal (or only situationally superior) in damage value; any less and you won't use them, no matter what other utility they may provide. Even having them be buttons that consume variable amounts of MP has to be weighed against you spending 3k to activate TBN to get Dark Arts; if it costs more then bursting TBN's barrier becomes a damage imperative, and if it costs less then spending Dark Arts on them becomes an inherent damage loss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archwizard

That's a marginal difference though, and only adds buttons for the sake of buttons; at best you find yourself alternating which of the two you use in the rotation every thirty-ish seconds, and the choice isn't particularly meaningful since you're still focused on which does optimized damage, particularly based on what's compatible with Dark Arts.

If you compare it to the days of original!Dark Arts granting increased healing or enmity or causing attacks to inflict Blind, as well as the potential growth into other sources of mitigation and utility -- tools that actually expand our gameplay and ability to react situationally -- our immediate use of MP for almost exclusively damage purposes and to limit TBN remains pretty narrow, even in that scenario.

Right now, you can't really diversify our use of MP without adding buttons that are all basically equal (or only situationally superior) in damage value; any less and you won't use them, no matter what other utility they may provide. Even having them be buttons that consume variable amounts of MP has to be weighed against you spending 3k to activate TBN to get Dark Arts; if it costs more then bursting TBN's barrier becomes a damage imperative, and if it costs less then spending Dark Arts on them becomes an inherent damage loss.

---

We're on the same page then, I agree the ideas weren't super interesting but that's where we're at now where you can't do much more. ItsUrBoi had another idea a few pages back that I thought could work, where MP/Darkside would be used for damage exclusively and Blood would be for utility such as self-healing or anything else you might want to add. TBN would still be a sticking point in this scenario depending on if you like it as is or not but you get the opportunity for more utility still. Or you could flip it around and have MP be the utility resource while Blood is the damage resource, along with whatever necessary reworks that needs (Edge would have to go, its Darkside increasing effect moved elsewhere and you lose the counterattack aspect from TBN). Point being that you fully separate out the utility and damage and no longer have to worry about those two things competing, and it gives DRK some diversity in its gauges rather than having Damage Meter 1 and Damage Meter 2 that never interact.

I mean to make DRK, you start with a base 1 2 3 combo. Then you add one or two OGCDs to weave. Then you add three tank CDs that match up with the other tanks.

After that, what it comes down to is how to engineer the burst phase. The way they did their burst phase was with Delirium and Blood Weapon, but we can definitely do better than that. For one, we don't need extra skills to make something like Delirium function: The main combo can be buffed during delirium and save the extra controls just fine. The blood weapon package was also basically three skills stuck together as it is meant to speed up the use of flood.

Honestly, blood weapon should have been doing what it's namesake is and making attacks heal the DRK, not boost MP regeneration. It's literally drinking the life out of someone.

Ugh, like thinking about this Dark Arts should be the skill that transforms the main combo into a more lethal combo and blood weapon should be the skill that helps the DRK survive, since some self healing with TBN would probably make them far better at surviving dungeons. The entire Delirium combo is just totally out of left field and has been since Shadowbringers.

All the OGCDs are basically there as filler / flavor for the job and do extra damage. That's it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

I'm always lost when people are complaining about how many removed mechanics Dark Knight has been through, and then turn around and beg for them to remove more mechanics from Dark Knight.

---

People just want dark knight to feel like an actual dark knight. Whatever that ends up being I don't know but the entire way this job got built was messy even during heavensward. People keep having this weird fascination with that time and all I remember is just how punishing dark arts actually was. Yes, people could be really good on dark knight and feel rewarded back then, but the floor was like two levels down through the basement.

A dark knight should have spells that drain the life and MP out of the opponent as the means of their self sustain. This is literally what they do in every iteration and instead we have a shields tank that has one disconnected skill that drains HP, one disconnected skill that drains MP, a warrior style combo delirium thing, and a blood weapon that apparently just boosts your MP regen instead of actually doing what someone would think a skill called Blood Weapon would actually do. You know, drain HP from your opponent?

Warrior for goodness sakes would have made more sense being the shield tank because they are supposed to be able to shrug off hits and be this tough fighting archetype. Yet for some reason the presentation on that job was to just stick HP healing on every single thing they do and call it a day.

Edit:

Forgot about the third thing DRK did in prior iterations. FFX-2 dress sphere version would sacrifice HP to do damage to opponents. That was something that was carried over to other versions but obviously wouldn't work well in the style of game that FFXIV is. Although they could do something where you could sacrifice the shield to do damage, so sort of simulate the same thing. They'd have to come up with a way to differentiate the shield pool of DRK from other shields because that would be funny unleashing an entire crit shield from a scholar on someone. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colt47

People keep having this weird fascination with that time and all I remember is just how punishing dark arts actually was.

---

I'm a bit confused by this. How was it particularly punishing? The mild resource management / ability to overspend?

Quote:

---

and a blood weapon that apparently just boosts your MP regen instead of actually doing what someone would think a skill called Blood Weapon would actually do. You know, drain HP from your opponent?

---

Which meant you could use Blood Weapon to heal (or offer further mitigation) when you actually needed it, instead of the rigid CD providing healing only in that particular moment. It's a deviation from the obvious thematic tie-in, yes, but it was also a fair bit more useful/flexible as a result.

Quote:

---

Warrior for goodness sakes would have made more sense being the shield tank because they are supposed to be able to shrug off hits and be this tough fighting archetype.

---

Where does the "shrug off hits" in the sense of taking little to no damage in the first place appear in XIV's lore surrounding Warrior?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm a bit confused by this. How was it particularly punishing? The mild resource management / ability to overspend?


Which meant you could use Blood Weapon to heal (or offer further mitigation) when you actually needed it, instead of the rigid CD providing healing only in that particular moment. It's a deviation from the obvious thematic tie-in, yes, but it was also a fair bit more useful/flexible as a result.


Where does the "shrug off hits" in the sense of taking little to no damage in the first place appear in XIV's lore surrounding Warrior?

---

It's a combination of the lore with how the mechanics represent the lore. Dark Knight is anti-magic mechanically which is demonstrated in their ability to be better equipped against magic attacks and that provides a least a glimpse into how their "Darkness" works. The warriors mechanics are supposed to represent how the inner beast makes the warrior more like a honey badger. As in, you're more likely to hurt the warriors feelings than to physically hurt the warrior.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colt47

warrior more like a honey badger. As in, you're more likely to hurt the warriors feelings than to physically hurt the warrior.

---

Always seemed to present the opposite to me -- that they can be badly wounded but will go on nonetheless and, if left unchecked, will rise back up.

Bloodied, not beaten. Heck, all the more frenzied/raging because of having been bloodied.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Always seemed to present the opposite to me -- that they can be badly wounded but will go on nonetheless and, if left unchecked, will rise back up.

Bloodied, not beaten. Heck, all the more frenzied/raging because of having been bloodied.

---

I know this line gets referenced a lot in this thread, but I always took that away as the meaning of the original DRK description ─

Quote:

---

So as I was saying, that heretic was fighting like a man possessed. Even after he took several wounds, he showed no sign of pain─though there was no mistaking the blood. As the fight wore on, it began to soak through his armor, spreading to every ilm of his body. But when it began to rise and envelop him as a mist, I realized it wasn't blood, but something dark and twisted...

---

Which some people have taken to mean "Oh, he showed no pain and it wasn't actually blood because he wasn't actually hurt, he just used a barrier."
But going by ability names like Grit and Blackblood, and the description of the raw determination required to harness the Abyss, I assumed that was a case of Fray actively fighting through the pain ("like a man possessed"), and converting all of the damage he took into a source of power (enveloping him like mist, something dark and twisted).

That envelloping mist is likely the Darkside stance, it was originally very mist like in the trailers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalaam

That envelloping mist is likely the Darkside stance, it was originally very mist like in the trailers

---

All the more reason for the "power" aspect I was highlighting.

Traditionally DRK turns pain into power. That's why in some iterations of the job they sacrifice HP to do damage to an opponent. In other iterations, they drain life and MP from opponents with sword skills or apply status debuffs with certain attacks. It's why DRK was a very odd choice for a tank job since the majority of what they are about is being a DPS more than being a tank.

Also, because of this theme DRK is the only tank coming out of Shadowbringers that did not get additional healing in their kit to balance out the lower defense of tanks in general this expansion. They effectively "work" at end game because self healing doesn't have as much meaning when attacks are more binary in nature. In fact, Shields are better at end game since it lets someone to go past 100% hp and survive things they have no business surviving, like some tank busters.

Truth is Tank design in general is kind of broken right now compared to other MMOs. Tanks in other MMOs have higher defense and your hope is that the healer keeps you alive instead of letting your hp drop to 5%, they start healing, and then you just fall over. In this MMO right now, you just run through a dungeon like a crazy person and flip the healer the bird if you're a warrior, because you'll just pop defiance and self heal your way out of everything while rotating in holmgang if the group gets cheeky, because all the tanks except DRK are self healers. Then you get to end game and stuff hits so hard that you suddenly have to use mits that you didn't know existed. Like p3s has stuff that one shots 100% HP tanks if they don't blow at least one mit and a healer or DPS used something as well.

Like if that is the direction the FFXIV team wants to go than DRK needs a complete rework to even hope to get there. And if they do that they likely are going to make someone angry on the forums given how many people have complained about samurai simply losing Kaiten. At least the DPS jobs have only one purpose to deal with: Tanks have to both take blows well and do damage.

******

So on the constructive part of this whole thing...

1) I believe that TBN does need to have some kind of self heal component instead of being a potential refresh on darkside if your shield breaks. If they do that then it pretty much goes into full cooldown status and no longer uses MP, which is used mostly to determine how many times someone can use Edge of Shadow / Flood of Darkness.

2) Probably controversial but they need to get rid of Blood spiller / Quietus. For one they were a plague on the leveling experience through the entirety of shadowbringers because before level 68 you didn't even have delirium, and you couldn't gain blood gauge off aoe combo, only the souleater combo. They also are just potency increased GCDs with no benefits otherwise. The job has a huge number of OGCDs at 90 and it just does not need an alternative rotation path to be interesting. You're going to be spending all the time managing...

1. Salted Earth WITH salted darkness
2. Shadowbringer
3. Carve and Split
4. Edge of Shadow
5. Plunge (because gap closers need potencies...)
6. Blood Weapon (which speeds up Edge of Shadow)

3) There should be some kind of healing on Carve and Split so it at least matches up with Abyssal drain. However, the problem is capping on healing and the fact that the game is designed around having things either be damage or survival with tanks. An attack that heals is still a damage ability primarily, so maybe giving them a skill that lets them self heal from attacking would be better than giving carve and split a healing potency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archwizard

All the more reason for the "power" aspect I was highlighting.

---

Though it could also have been Living Dead since they describe him falling dead shortly after, I imagine it was a mix of both

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colt47

2) Probably controversial but they need to get rid of Blood spiller / Quietus. For one they were a plague on the leveling experience through the entirety of shadowbringers because before level 68 you didn't even have delirium, and you couldn't gain blood gauge off aoe combo, only the souleater combo. They also are just potency increased GCDs with no benefits otherwise. The job has a huge number of OGCDs at 90 and it just does not need an alternative rotation path to be interesting. You're going to be spending all the time managing...

1. Salted Earth WITH salted darkness
2. Shadowbringer
3. Carve and Split
4. Edge of Shadow
5. Plunge (because gap closers need potencies...)
6. Blood Weapon (which speeds up Edge of Shadow)

---

This is where we're going to disagree, because even with so many oGCDs to manage, your rotation is going to primarily be the same 3 button combo over and over and over and over, interspersed with cooldowns.

And, to be clear here, DRK is not unique in having a large number of damage oGCDs to manage either, even among the tanks.
GNB has Bow Shock, No Mercy, Blasting Zone, Continuation (which is used SIGNIFICANTLY more often than Edge), Rough Divide, and Bloodfest. It also has (depending how you count the Cartridge Combo) 7-9 GCDs in the core rotation between them, so there's very little monotony to the job.

The primary difference between them of course is that DRK also has Delirium and Living Shadow (and Abyssal Drain for AoE), but half as many GCDs.

So what you advocate here is that the job get pared down even more... while substituting that loss with nothing?

I mean don't get me wrong, I'm not attached to Bloodspiller and Quietus either -- especially where they exist in our kit as WAR-lite elements -- but I'd much rather see them expanded upon or replaced with something that builds on the kit, than simply removed.

I wish Lost Ark isn't restricted to top down and elsword/vindictus isn't p2w. These 3 games have better greatsword user/dark knight job that make drk in xiv seem pale by comparison

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The_User

I wish Lost Ark isn't restricted to top down and elsword/vindictus isn't p2w. These 3 games have better greatsword user/dark knight job that make drk in xiv seem pale by comparison

---

Vindictus is also just dead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The_User

I wish Lost Ark isn't restricted to top down and elsword/vindictus isn't p2w. These 3 games have better greatsword user/dark knight job that make drk in xiv seem pale by comparison

---

We don't talk about the unholy elsword in this house.

All I really want from DRK is its own brand of utility along with a rotation that doesn't get monotonous and incoherent. It would be very cool to have them lean into a tiered rotation, with enhanced animations and more functions as you go up in tiers before needing to reset back to tier 1. I still advocate for something like that, really bringing out the longer DRK fights the more wild and fierce they strike concept before needing to cool off and reset the dance.

I had hoped that DRK would have more of a spell weaving aspect to them. paladin has a spell and melee part of a rotation and it think DRK mashing them together was where is was going to go back in heavensward with hard slash and abyssal drain as a spell.

Having mana skill naturally making black blood skills is a way to do that. I know cloud talk can be touchy but i figured it'd be something like cross slash, where if you use mana correctly queitus would get it's orb bursts.

I think it's odd how DRK can have two separate bars and with so many of it's ogcds stacking to two it just ends up as the banky-ist tank. but the bank till buffs is more of a overall game gripe.

Who are "we" exactly? or is there a new commandment now in this thread while I wasn't looking?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The_User

Who are "we" exactly? or is there a new commandment now in this thread while I wasn't looking?

---

I believe their statement qualifies as what some would call, a jape.

I think realistically right now the developers should really start addressing issues that are in regard to homogenization and job identity, especially considering the new savage dungeons coming. Homogenization is fine as long as it doesn't hurt job identity. Making it so that at the end of the day all jobs have the same DPS, healing and mitigation is fine, as long as they take different routes to get there.

->Carve and spit is used once every minute, along with Abyssal drain, this makes them very low impact regardless of single target or AoE situations. DRK has a decent ability ( Abyssal Drain ) for dungeon sustain, if they would only use it more often. Lowering the CD of both to 30 seconds, while adjusting the damage potency and the MP generation would make it so that you have something to do when you are not bursting for 1 target, and for AoE you'd have Abyssal Drain more often, which could be buffed up to 250 heal potency, from the current 200.

->A second combo that puts a DoT on target would be very easy to add back ( Scourge ), and would also give you something to do when not bursting.

->Delirium should not be an inner release copy. An easy change would be to make it so that its just a special 5 button combo making use of actions such as Bloodspiller / Quietus. Older animations such as Power Slash, old Delirium and Spinning Slash could also be brought back! Fray should also do this combo instead of using low impact abilities such as Abyssal Drain and Plunge.

->The blood gauge could be changed so that it is sort of a combination between PLD's and WAR's gauges. Blackblood is obtained from dealing damage with certain attacks ( Ex: Souleater, Scourge, Shadowbringer, Delirium combo etc ). Using defensive actions such as TBN or Oblation with enough Blackblood adds a special effect to them. For example if TBN is used with more than 25 blackblood, upon breaking it heals you for 10% of your max HP, while Oblation grants a 200 potency regen effect for 12 seconds.

-> Dark Mind should be changed to a defensive CD that allows the DRK to heal himself on demand in case of an emergency. PLD has clemency, War has Equilibrium, GNB has aurora. Something that would give identity to the job and reinforce its class fantasy.
For example: Sole survivor, 1 minute cooldown. Marks targeted enemy with "Another Victim". Dealing and taking damage from the marked enemy heals you, proportional with the amount taken/dealt up to a cap. If target is defeated, you are healed for 20% of max HP. And of course because the damage reduction from Dark Mind will be gone, a part of it could go into Oblation, making it 15% instead of 10%, so that it has more impact.

In all honesty, after playing this job for roughly more than 1 year non stop, these changes would certainly address at least my personal issues with it, and from what I keep seeing on this forum: DRK being a WAR lite clone, boring downtime between bursts, poor sustain in dungeons and overall low impact abilities in certain cases.

In all honesty if there are no changes to DRK in 6.2 then WAR will be the preferred tank over DRK in terms of 4 man savage content.

Oblation needs to be changed because 10% mit is really next to nothing

Scourge>DOT second combo=Goring Blade.


Clemency can't be group up with a free heal like Equilibrium and Aurora.






What can be done with Dark Mind?

Maybe this



If, by the time of the execution of this ability, the current HP of target is above 50% :

Creates a barrier around target that absorbs damage equivalent to a heal of 1200 potency. Duration 10s.

If, by the time of the execution of this ability, the current HP of target is below 51% : Restores target's HP. Cure Potency : 1200

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The_User

Scourge>DOT second combo=Goring Blade.


Clemency can't be group up with a free heal like Equilibrium and Aurora.

---

Then just add Scourge back as a GCD without a cooldown?
Clemency yes shouldn't be grouped up with a free heal, but the point is that PLD has the option to use it ( even if its a damage loss ). DRK doesn't have that option, free or let alone at a cost.

If you really want it then maybe have [DOT] Scourge cone aoe+damage fall off>consume darkside timer and just remove passive damage bonus from darkside and then.... maybe have delirium turn them to [a cooler version of] Bloodspiller>https://youtu.be/I1_w_zk6DbM?t=163 or entirely new satisfy sword slam>https://youtu.be/cWdl2RgmaBo?t=539


Or


Make Scourge a cone aoe with a damage fall off that give damage up buff


Or


Make Scourge a cone aoe with a damage fall off that give a buff that increase a gauge when landing the next 5? gcd?


Or


Make Scourge like the option above and create another gcd that give a buff that allow you to increase another gauge so you can have 2 kind of gauges to manage and make a decision kinda like a Red Mage.



Just 2 cents btw... I don't feel motivated to brainstorm for quite sometime now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The_User

What can be done with Dark Mind?

---

The preferred option there is "Absolutely nothing, because it's one of DRK's best skills and arguably the strongest tank defensive in the game."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crater

The preferred option there is "Absolutely nothing, because it's one of DRK's best skills and arguably the strongest tank defensive in the game."

---

How is it one of the strongest tank defensive tools in the game? It only works on magical, lasts 10 seconds. Why would anyone want this over Camouflage?

That's a fair point. Camo is a much better choice if you find yourself repeatedly wiping during dungeon prog.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

How is it one of the strongest tank defensive tools in the game? It only works on magical, lasts 10 seconds. Why would anyone want this over Camouflage?

---

Because the majority of tankbusters are magical, and having 30 seconds' shorter of a CD means it's available for many more, resulting in much better overall coverage against a fight's arsenal of tank damage.


Camo is twice as long (irrelevant unless you'd end up covering an extra tankbuster in that time) and adds a further 10% mitigation to its non-dominant category (20% physical, 10% magical), but its CD is also 50% longer than Dark Mind's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

That's a fair point. Camo is a much better choice if you find yourself repeatedly wiping during dungeon prog.

---

Or if you find yourself getting murdered by auto attacks in an ultimate or savage.Also with no way to determine which attacks are magic or physical in game, thats a very dogy argument. I know a lot of tank busters which are physical. In fact I know more which are physical, then magical.

Oh yeah and LD used to be the best invul too according to the claim of people who don't really main DRK.


"majority of tank Buster is magical" yes,when your whole game is the high end contents.
When you do a hunt or help someone else leveling in a dungeon magic mitigation is such a life saver.


Btw if Oblation swap place with the Dark Mind it could be more useful despite that the only thing that happen is having one ability unlocked sooner than another.