OMG Give us an AOE heal that is not worthless!

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Swiftcast cure 2/medica2 is also something whm has over Sch . Who cant use swiftcast to boost their healing as well. The difference between whm and sch tank healing is that sch is forced to use lustrate to keep up due to their much lower healing potency. But the whm is free to save benediction because they wont fall behind in tank healing unless they screw up somehow.

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I dunno if I would say forced. The abilities are pretty different. Benediction is an "oh crap" cool down, while lustrate is more of a regular use tool...swiftcast cure 2... is ...okay... still not anything like lustrate. Medica 2 is more of an AoE heal... I don't think I would count succor in SCH tank healing arsenal...

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swiftcast cure 2... is ...okay... still not anything like lustrate

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Its about equal to a lustrate, it has a higher potency and a quicker animation. Due to how animation delay works in this game. Instant heals are not truly instant. Targets very often die even when you lustrate them or benediction them. It weakens instant healing. You should ideally never get to that point in the first place. So lustrate and benediction is pretty much a 1.5 second cast time heal.

Spam healing at a higher potency and keeping your tank above a certain hp is just way better for this game then reactionary healing.

I advice people who struggle with healing with to just spam heal.

Btw in the same gear whm heals like 20-40 hp more with cure then sch does with physick. The faerie heals 33% less then sch would with 300 potency.
So sch physick true potency is like 390 potency of whm . Sch faerie embrace is like 210 potency.
Another thing to consider is that spell speed is a wasted stat on sch. Because
1. lustrate and faerie is not affect by it . Sch must wait for faerie to become availible to command it so sch have a gcd of 3 seconds basically.
2. using 2 adlo effects results in wasted potency
How tank damage works in this game is that tanks seem to take a big hit of damage every 3-7 seconds while occasionally taking an instant attack. Due to this delay in damage taken healing spamming adloquium very often will result in wasted potency. So best healing rotation for sch is rotating adlo and physick to avoid wasting potency.

If we compare base healing potency with no cooldowns used we can see sch falls behind
a sch must heal every 3 seconds because the faerie gcd is 3 seconds and is not effected by spell speed. Not commanding faerie to heal and using another physick/adlo would result in lower potency.
a whm can heal asap. so they can heal every 2.42 seconds or less.

In 15 seconds sch would can do
5 *210(1050)embrace + 3*585(1755) adloquium + 2*390(780) physick total potency= 3585
In 15 seconds a whm can do
6.25*650 cure 2(4062) and have 5*150(750) regen ticks total potency= 4812
Every 15 seconds sch must make up 1227 potency to catch up to whm base healing with no cds
Every 60 seconds sch must make up around 3608 potency(regen gcd included) to catch up to whm base healing with no cds
On a 5600 hp tank lustrate would heal 1120 which is around 487 potency. a sch can use 3 lustrate per minute which is 1462 potency. Which means sch still needs 2146potency to catch up to whm. The problem is that whm cooldowns are much superior and further the gap more. 20% uptime Divine seal ,presence of mind,benediction all completely trump sch cooldowns. Whm also makes much better use of food and mind potions .Due to the faerie not receiving any benefit from the mind potion and sch not being able to use spell speed.

Hey apollogenx do you feel sorry for sch now? Still disagree with sch being the worse tank healer for current content?

Another thing that makes whm a superior tank healer is that they can toss a swiftcast 700 potency 20 yard medica 2 Aoe heal then go straight back to tank healing. Or they can regen another target then go straight back to tank healing. Yeah mathmatically whm is the superior tank healer and raid healer. Whm can also raid heal while tank healing much better then sch. There is absolutely zero reason for sch to be such an inferior aoe healer atm.

Problem with Adloquim and Succor is that they are healing-confused. They don't know whether they want to absorb incoming damage or heal. So it leads to a situation where, quite often you get half usefulness out of them. Either over-healing for the shield, or healing and getting no use out of the shield.

I feel like Scholar was intended to be a mitgation healer, but unfortunately, just like the Bard, they chickened out and decided with this half and half method leaving the Scholar somewhat in-efficient.

Theres a lot wrong with the sch atm compared to whm. Fairy heal says 30ys but its more like 20ys so it moves to heal a target. This is a huge issue. The fairy AI is horrible in general which makes it so you have to micro it but its hard to micro it since it will do its own thing from time to time. As for succor, i can crit for 500 and give a 1k shield. Thats nice and all, but unless the shield comes off my next succor will be at most a 500 hp heal. In a dungeon like coil it becomes painfully apparent how much more powerful a whm is. WHm with its 100% heal every 3 minutes compared to our lustrate which is painfully bad because its a flat 20% heal that only benifits the warrior tanks at high levels. whm can area heal and spot heal at the same time while sch can only spot heal. its simply not how it should be.

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Originally Posted by abeltensor

Theres a lot wrong with the sch atm compared to whm. Fairy heal says 30ys but its more like 20ys so it moves to heal a target. This is a huge issue. The fairy AI is horrible in general which makes it so you have to micro it but its hard to micro it since it will do its own thing from time to time. As for succor, i can crit for 500 and give a 1k shield. Thats nice and all, but unless the shield comes off my next succor will be at most a 500 hp heal. In a dungeon like coil it becomes painfully apparent how much more powerful a whm is. WHm with its 100% heal every 3 minutes compared to our lustrate which is painfully bad because its a flat 20% heal that only benifits the warrior tanks at high levels. whm can area heal and spot heal at the same time while sch can only spot heal. its simply not how it should be.

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Succor not confirmed to have double shield. Tool tip does not mention critical shields like adloquium does.
I just tested succor and it doesnt seem to have double shield on crit. The shield is equal to the crit heal. Succor does suck lol. There is no justification for it to be so weak when it doesnt even give double shields.

I am confused. I don't mean for this to come off as snarky, but.. It seems many people here hate everything Scholar is about. If you truly hate the shields and pet AI, wouldn't it be better to level WHM instead of asking for SCH to be WHM?

SCH don't seem to have as hard a time as people claim. I say that from both observing and while slowly leveling it myself. I've gone into some CM runs and the SCH told me I don't need to heal if I don't want to. So I put up Cleric Stance, and only helped out occasionally with regen. They took care of everyone just fine. Then there have been some others who have said that, but ended up with me having to drop Cleric Stance and heal because they don't have things as figured out as they thought.

Have even had that happen in Garuda and Ifrit HM. I still casted Medica II at least twice, and put regen on a few people. But otherwise the SCH took care of it all while I spammed Stone II.

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Originally Posted by Shyluv

I am confused. I don't mean for this to come off as snarky, but.. It seems many people here hate everything Scholar is about. If you truly hate the shields and pet AI, wouldn't it be better to level WHM instead of asking for SCH to be WHM?

SCH don't seem to have as hard a time as people claim. I say that from both observing and while slowly leveling it myself. I've gone into some CM runs and the SCH told me I don't need to heal if I don't want to. So I put up Cleric Stance, and only helped out occasionally with regen. They took care of everyone just fine. Then there have been some others who have said that, but ended up with me having to drop Cleric Stance and heal because they don't have things as figured out as they thought.

Have even had that happen in Garuda and Ifrit HM. I still casted Medica II at least twice, and put regen on a few people. But otherwise the SCH took care of it all while I spammed Stone II.

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This is what anyone who cares about being the best for their fc is doing. Just like every warrior is rolling paladin until se fix warrior. Sch are either rolling whm or going into groups where this is definately another whm. This game discourages you from playing multiple class due to mytho cap which can only be allocated to one job and your alt will always be inferior in gear.

Btw garuda and ifrit especially are jokes that can be healed easily by 1 healer. Ifrit and cm could probally be healed naked.
Sch is mathmatically inferior to whm, warrior is mathmatically inferior to pld.
Did you ignore the calculations i posted? Are you trying to argue against mathematical fact?
In cutting edge content thats were balance actually start to matter and where balance start to cause more wipes or giving you the boost you need to succeed. Fact of the matter is no whm in your coil 4 pt? no win for you. There is not a single fight where a sch is absolutely nessary to win but there are a few fights where whm is required and a few whm where a whm in pt makes everything much easier.

Double sch , single sch , full tank , full smn whatever dumb pt make up could beat ifrit,garuda and cm. These are not fights that are hindered by class balance (because are very lenient and have a large margain for error)
The fact that ifrit, garuda and cm are on duty finder farm mode is also proof of that.

An example you could understand. If you used a luvdisc you could probally beat the main story of pokemon very easy with it. However when it comes to actual serious and challenging part of pokemon such as competitive battles and battle tower boss. Your underpowered luvdisc would not serve you well. Sch and warrior are luvdisc that need to be compensated by having at least 1 whm /paladin in the pt who will pick your slack or being replaced entirely.

Please do double sch, double warrior coil 4 for me.Then tell me how a sch can do everything a whm can.

You can probally do ifrit and cm with blm/smn healers lol or even just using regen and fairy alone. Content that doesnt you to your limits is not what the jobs should be balanced around.

Forgive me if I'm missing the point, but why did your math not include the additional 1755 preventative shield component from adloquium? While that component isn't technically a heal, it sort of leaves the math incomplete, in my opinion. If you're going to take the full value of each spell and throw out things like overhealing and clipping to show raw potential numbers, then shouldn't you include the offset made by the shield too? I'm not saying the shield should be included in the heal potency math itself, but rather as a side note that potentially covers some of the numbers that whm puts up over sch. Afterall, the way I look at it, that's an extra 1755 hit points the tank has because of the full value usage of adloquium.

The math does include the shield. The math is based on potency. How much damage can a whm and a sch heal in xxx seconds.

Adlo is 600 potency total or 585 potency compared to whm since sch heals less with the same gear.

585 *3 =1755 total potency or 887 potency shield in 15 seconds. So around 25% of sch healing is from adlloquium shielding.
3548 potency shielded in 60 seconds

OK the math shows how far behind sch is in total potency even factoring in lustrate. Now i didnt even factor in whm 20% uptime of divine seal or benediction.

Whm can keep up a tank who taking xxxx amount of potency in damage. They can heal that much in 15 seconds . If you have done coil you know that tank healing is all about not falling behind which whm is superior at. Sch will find it hard to keep a up a tank taking continuously high damage. Since when they run out lustrate their healing potency is much weaker then the very consistent whm.

To calculate over healing it would depend on the boss in question and how often they hit and how hard they hit.

One thing is certain whm is not a bad tank healer at all , so why are schs such bad aoe healers? What exactly justifies whm aoe healing more then double a sch can

The issue is this, appearances in easier dungeons fool you. WHM and SCH are designed to complement each other-- the shield creates a buffer in hp, which makes it easier for the whm to heal. So a good scholar will be able to prevent a good chunk of damage with their CDs and the whm will easily top it off whit a bit more room for error in reaction time.

Issue is, when things get serious, the shield kinda becomes a joke, with people having way more hp and things hitting way harder, the shield just doesn't do it anymore and it becomes a reactive game. Reactive healing just isn't the SCH strong point and due to the terrible scaling on harder fights, the poor fairy ai and our much lower potency esp for aoe heals, the difference becomes apparent. At this point, it just becomes more viable to stack whm rather than using a sch for their buffers and damage reductions, because they just don't do enough to justify their weaker heals.

That's my take on it. I think SE had a good idea, but judging by the poor pet AI and bugs, it just seems they rushed it without proper testing for how it scales.

There are plenty of solutions to the issue that keeps sch unique. I'd just start with making shields stack better and have better potency (maybe based on hp percentage of the target in some way). If succor kept its 150 potency but added a shield for 7-10% of the players hp plus 1/2 of the potency, it would suddenly be useful and wouldn't gimp us for tank healing for using it either as the tank would get a proper shield rather than some 400hp the boss will sneeze off. Then give us an aetherflow based buff which turns the shield +20% into healing. Since we only have 3 a minute, we'd have to pick wisely.

I don't think this would make us godly, you'd still need the whm for raw healing, but we could actually do some decent damage prevention and some much needed burst for those "oh shit" moments.

Math is nice and all but in a fight there are multiple variables.There are others that think two whm is stupid in coils and you need a sch.Its there gear missing inbetween coils?Can you beat coils with a sch?

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Originally Posted by Burstwolf

Math is nice and all but in a fight there are multiple variables.There are others that think two whm is stupid in coils and you need a sch.Its there gear missing inbetween coils?Can you beat coils with a sch?

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The last few pages alone should have answered these questions for you let alone reading passed the first post.

I'm not sure how the math is even possible... whm cure 2 is 2.5 cast time, I think? That is at the most 6 in 15 seconds... assuming you have good spell speed, you could ignore the GCD... maybe but even that is not realistic. Why do you have 6.25?

That is assuming stationary hard casting. What happens if you throw any movement into the picture? I suspect the math would change significantly.

I also wonder about mana issues. Chain casting cure 2s can be costly. You could get around this with a bard, but that is out of scope of a class to class comparison. You mention sustained high damage- but I would be interested if this playstyle is truly sustainable.

TBH I think you should just drop the white mage complaints. If you are willing to give whm a bigger AE in Cure 3, then your issue isn't with whm healing- it's with scholar healing. I think there is a valid argument to be made about scholar healing without pulling the whm into it.

As I have said, fixes are certianly called for- I can't stand the pet currently... although I was having fun with Selene last night keeping skill haste and spell haste on a raid... that is significant... but the controls are terrible.

Honestly, in playing, I find that I group shield before AEs, and then my natural instinct is to follow up with a pet ability- that just isn't there... either because of lack of control, or because it's very weak or on CD. I believe the pet needs to be fixed, and AE bolstered via reduced CD on the pet ability, and possibly a small boost in potency.

They absolutely must add toggle on/off auto use of abilities.

I think you're forgetting something here.

SCH has more mobility than a WHM. The fairy can heal while the SCH is running for their lives, and SCH gets Lustrate, which you can use while moving. Also with keeping Eos on Steady, and saving Rouse+Fey Illumination, Eos easily becomes the "oh shit" button. Her healing potency is so buffed up it's almost like having a second healer. I've seen this combo completely turn a bad situation into a joke.

Also SCH's have virtually unlimited MP. I rarely ever get below half MP. I can spam pretty much everything and not have to worry about MP problems.

WHM also seems to be standing around doing nothing 75% of the time. This gets boring. *wait for dmg, heal. wait for dmg, cast stone 2, heal* YAWN! As a SCH, there's always something to be done. Putting adlo on someone that's likely to get hit next, watching Selene's buff rotation, stacking your dots on everything with Bane, moving the fairy to a new spot because the tank moved, reinstalling Adlo, sometimes throwing in a Succor. Over healing as a SCH actually has a benefit, and this is what most people don't seem to understand. You have to act before the damage. If you become one step behind, then you're playing a catch up to the WHM game, which the SCH will certainly fail at... unless you saved Rouse+Fey Illumination. Then you're safe again. Lol

While yes I agree WHM is the superior healer, SCH definitely has it's uses. It IS more of a situational class, but I like it alot better because I feel more reliable with it. I don't have to worry about conserving MP, or taking aggro and dying. I leveled a WHM first, and after playing SCH for a while, I can never go back. I played WHM for a bit yesterday, and I missed Lustrate and my Fairy so badly!

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

I'm not sure how the math is even possible... whm cure 2 is 2.5 cast time, I think? That is at the most 6 in 15 seconds... assuming you have good spell speed, you could ignore the GCD... maybe but even that is not realistic. Why do you have 6.25?

That is assuming stationary hard casting. What happens if you throw any movement into the picture? I suspect the math would change significantly. Which is close to a flash heal cast time of wow which was just fine for mobility fights.

I also wonder about mana issues. Chain casting cure 2s can be costly. You could get around this with a bard, but that is out of scope of a class to class comparison. You mention sustained high damage- but I would be interested if this playstyle is truly sustainable.

TBH I think you should just drop the white mage complaints. If you are willing to give whm a bigger AE in Cure 3, then your issue isn't with whm healing- it's with scholar healing. I think there is a valid argument to be made about scholar healing without pulling the whm into it.

As I have said, fixes are certianly called for- I can't stand the pet currently... although I was having fun with Selene last night keeping skill haste and spell haste on a raid... that is significant... but the controls are terrible.

Honestly, in playing, I find that I group shield before AEs, and then my natural instinct is to follow up with a pet ability- that just isn't there... either because of lack of control, or because it's very weak or on CD. I believe the pet needs to be fixed, and AE bolstered via reduced CD on the pet ability, and possibly a small boost in potency.

They absolutely must add toggle on/off auto use of abilities.

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Cure 2 is 1.92-2second cast time do you even play whm lol? since spells always go off around 80% cast time cure 2 is more like a 1.7second cast time.

I have played both whm and sch in coil .i feel whm is superior overall. That why i am gearing my whm with mythos upgrades. Idc if SE buffs sch or not , who knows how long they will take . SE are very slow when it comes to true class balance. Even so i will have my whm for which i am doing fine with. Whm is op atm and i absolutely don't mind that i can play an op healer at all since i am not locked into 1 class.

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I think you're forgetting something here.

SCH has more mobility than a WHM. The fairy can heal while the SCH is running for their lives, and SCH gets Lustrate, which you can use while moving. Also with keeping Eos on Steady, and saving Rouse+Fey Illumination, Eos easily becomes the "oh shit" button. Her healing potency is so buffed up it's almost like having a second healer. I've seen this combo completely turn a bad situation into a joke.

Also SCH's have virtually unlimited MP. I rarely ever get below half MP. I can spam pretty much everything and not have to worry about MP problems.

WHM also seems to be standing around doing nothing 75% of the time. This gets boring. *wait for dmg, heal. wait for dmg, cast stone 2, heal* YAWN! As a SCH, there's always something to be done. Putting adlo on someone that's likely to get hit next, watching Selene's buff rotation, stacking your dots on everything with Bane, moving the fairy to a new spot because the tank moved, reinstalling Adlo, sometimes throwing in a Succor. Over healing as a SCH actually has a benefit, and this is what most people don't seem to understand. You have to act before the damage. If you become one step behind, then you're playing a catch up to the WHM game, which the SCH will certainly fail at... unless you saved Rouse+Fey Illumination. Then you're safe again. Lol

While yes I agree WHM is the superior healer, SCH definitely has it's uses. It IS more of a situational class, but I like it alot better because I feel more reliable with it. I don't have to worry about conserving MP, or taking aggro and dying. I leveled a WHM first, and after playing SCH for a while, I can never go back. I played WHM for a bit yesterday, and I missed Lustrate and my Fairy so badly!

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Whm Sleep, Dot aero/thunder, dps with stone2/aoe with holy
Whm can put their 30 minute duration 18% stoneskin on people, they can put regens on tanks and melee.
Whm can time their heals to heal the tank as soon as he takes damage
Whm can use virus and eye for an eye as well

Whm are just as mobile outside of lustrate. Regen(or a stacked regen+medica 2) is healing about as much as the faerie. Especially when it is divine seal. With such low cast times single target healing there is zero mobility issue in this game. Swiftcast and benediction is a good tool for when you want to be mobile. Mobility is not important in this game because the boss does his abilties in a set pattern that you can anticipate . Bosses quite often don't attack the tank when they are doing the aoe. E.g garuda, titan,coil 2 ADS, akeep boss.

Sch does not have unlimited mp when you are using lustrate , adloquium and succor.
Whm have superior hp healed per point of mana but worse mana return
Sch heal much less per mana point but have better mana return.

Normally in parties the whm is carrying the sch by healing everyone much more then the sch is. If the sch tried to aoe heal as much as the whm they would oom quite fast due to their mana inefficient aoe healing

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

I have played both whm and sch in coil .i feel whm is superior overall. That why i am gearing my whm with mythos upgrades. Idc if SE buffs sch or not i will have whm for which i am doing fine with.

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Yeah, I prefer whm, too. I just like the style better and I don't like the pet controls. I really don't feel like the scholar is even a finished class yet with the pet controls so awful.

if you are playing the SCH right Succor is a great spell, consider the crit heal + crit bubble (bubble is better than heals because of dmg prevention) it weights the same as Medika even better imo.

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Originally Posted by Professor_JoJo

if you are playing the SCH right Succor is a great spell, consider the crit heal + crit bubble (bubble is better than heals because of dmg prevention) it weights the same as Medika even better imo.

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Succor critical heals do not produce double shield. The shield they produced by the critical hit is equal to the hp of critical heal. Besides, relying on the current critical rate of around 25% semi geared will not even be close to guaranteed crits.

Sorry but you left out so much you compared paper vs paper.That isn't accounting for battle and versatile.Not accounting for group sets up ,not accounting for lag,for movement.just numbers on paper not a flowing battle.As far as reading post people have done coil,Hm etc were first 50 scholar said you couldnt.

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Originally Posted by Burstwolf

Sorry but you left out so much you compared paper vs paper.That isn't accounting for battle and versatile.Not accounting for group sets up ,not accounting for lag,for movement.just numbers on paper not a flowing battle.As far as reading post people have done coil,Hm etc were first 50 scholar said you couldnt.

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I done everything up to coil 5 as sch
Then i did everything up to coil 5 as whm
Whm seems much better healer after both experiences.

People freaking love to play theory craft with sch. Yet i get dismissed for numbers. My numbers show sch is not the superior tank healer. The fight variations may bring them closer together. However the math is just there to show that sch shitty aoe heals is unjustified since they are not exactly kicking whm butt in the tank healing department.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

I done everything up to coil 5 as sch
Then i did everything up to coil 5 as whm
Whm seems much better healer after both experiences.

People freaking love to play theory craft with sch. Yet i get dismissed for numbers. My numbers show sch is not the superior tank healer. The fight variations may bring them closer together. However the math is just there to show that sch shitty aoe heals is unjustified since they are not exactly kicking whm butt in the tank healing department.

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Again, rather than compare, why not give real world data on AE damage patterns and sch ability? I think that would be a better case. Again, I am not saying that SCH is "fine" there are many fixes to the pet that need to be done. I just think that you could make a decent case for SCH without pulling whm into it.

You are just going to get a diluted conversation about whms, instead of focusing on the issue you have with the sch class. An example of this is discussion related to pet controls... which seem to have universal agreement are bad. It doesn't take any discussion of the whm to make the point that this needs addressing.

I think the SCH biggest weak spot is intermittant large AE damage patterns, where a pre-shield gets used and overcome, but then health is low and has to be healed. Further shields in the interim are wasted and it takes lots of mps and casts of succor to get the group health back up before the next round of AE damage.

This is the hole in the toolbox.

Currently, you can recast succor, rouse pet for heals, and hopefully activate pet AE heal. Again, pet controls get in the way of this execution. Is the problem that succor did a subpar job of shielding the damage? Maybe. Is it that 10 percent on SS was inadequate? Possibly. Or is it that your pet AE heal to follow your shields is unreliable, weak, and on a long CD? Well- that is my complaint.

What would happen if the pet AE heal was constantly up? At 100 potency... I think it would be nice... but nothing world shattering. It would be quicker regen for the raid... which imo would be a nice alternative to the constant pet buffs via Selene.

The pet regen is not 100 potency it is 66 potency. Because the faerie heals 33% less then the sch . Did u even read my post. How would a 30% uptime of a 66 potency regen even begin to bridge the gap.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

The pet regen is not 100 potency it is 66 potency. Because the faerie heals 33% less then the sch . Did u even read my post. How would a 30% uptime of a 66 potency regen even begin to bridge the gap.

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I wasn't saying that. I was saying that even if it was always up, I wouldn't see an issue with it as it's fairly weak. I told you, I am not going to obsess over whms and construct all of my suggestions in an effort to "right" some percieved massive imbalance. There are improvements that I think could be made that don't require mention of whms. Not every change the the sch class requires "because whms are SOOOO much better!" as a justification. Some things are just kind of obvious.. pets need to be fixed... the weak pet heal being up all the time... does anyone really think that would be game changing? Probably not, but it would be nice.

Is it going to make SCH required for anything? I doubt it... but it would be a nice trickle regen to the raid. If they ever plan to have a class that slowly drains its own life for some reason, it would be a great companion class. It would also be nice for passive aura damage.

Is it just poor gear scaling on Eos, or what? Because after doing some testing in Artifact gear with Darklight accesories while being bored, I'd hardly say that Eos has a 33% healing loss in comparison to the Scholar himself. Adloquium would do a raw heal for 480 on an average, while Embrace would heal for 440 on an average. A 10% loss perhaps, but hardly 33%. And it's really easy to check, considering how Adloquium and Embrace have identical potencies when it comes to the raw heals. Please enlighten me. :(

Though I'll admit that the Scholar reeks of support healer design, rather than main healer, considering how they don't have the tools to adequately handle all types of damage.

Er sorry it is more like 20% reduced healing in relic and allagan/dlight mix. I assumed the reason it healed less was because it didnt benefit from the maim and mend trait of 30% boost to healing so i have absolutely no idea now why it is healing 20% lower then the sch.
naked sch with weathered book heals 149 with adloquium faerie heals 107. Which would be around 33% reduced healing.

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because whms are SOOOO much better!

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No fight requires a sch but coil 4 is impossibru without a whm healing the enrage ticking for 1400-1500 how does that not make whms so much better? You can beat coil with 2 whm or 1whm + 1sch but cannot beat it with 2sch

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Originally Posted by Raminax

Though I'll admit that the Scholar reeks of support healer design, rather than main healer, considering how they don't have the tools to adequately handle all types of damage.

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What exactly is a support healer vs a main healer?

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Originally Posted by Nuclayer

What exactly is a support healer vs a main healer?

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Healing focused utility based class is pretty much what SCH is atm, lots of noncritical utility designed to support whm's.

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Originally Posted by Alu79

Healing focused utility based class is pretty much what SCH is atm, lots of noncritical utility designed to support whm's.

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2 whm support each other well though with the regen and medica 2 stacking. also less enmity for the whm who now can heal less since they dont have to make up for the sch's craptastic aoe healing

You are right that sch has support healer utility. The problem is that its completely non essential. Whm can heal encounters fine without a sch support healer, they may even find some fights easier as double whm(titan hm,coil 2). But a sch relies on whm's aoe healing .

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

No fight requires a sch but coil 4 is impossibru without a whm healing the enrage ticking for 1400-1500 how does that not make whms so much better? You can beat coil with 2 whm or 1whm + 1sch but cannot beat it with 2sch

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Then make a thread about how using 2 sch on that encounter is impossible, including fight data.

You don't have to complain about whms to prove that scholars are not functioning. You do realize these posts of yours are nothing more than complaining to get whms nerfed, right? It's obvious.

If you wanted scholars fixed, you would be addressing their issues directly, without constantly complaining about whms.

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Originally Posted by Alu79

Healing focused utility based class is pretty much what SCH is atm, lots of noncritical utility designed to support whm's.

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What Utility does a SCH have that is niche or supports a WHM that another WHM does not bring or at least compensate for? In other words, what can a SCH do that no other class do that makes it worth bringing?

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Originally Posted by Nuclayer

What Utility does a SCH have that is niche or supports a WHM that another WHM does not bring or at least compensate for? In other words, what can a SCH do that no other class do that makes it worth bringing?

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Just curious- what does a blm do that no other class does to make it worth bringing? With the exception of bards... and maybe paladins (stuns)... what exactly is so unique about any class that makes it so necessary?

It's why every dps wants to be the highest/every healer wants to be the healiest/every tank wants to be the tankiest- because if they aren't they say-

"What can I do that no one else can do that makes me worth taking"? In other words- what makes me a special snowflake and required?

In a completely balanced game- No one has something unique that makes them required.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

2 whm support each other well though with the regen and medica 2 stacking. also less enmity for the whm who now can heal less since they dont have to make up for the sch's craptastic aoe healing

You are right that sch has support healer utility. The problem is that its completely non essential. Whm can heal encounters fine without a sch support healer, they may even find some fights easier as double whm(titan hm,coil 2). But a sch relies on whm's aoe healing .

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I am in complete agreement with you, was just stating it plainly for the guy that asked.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Then make a thread about how using 2 sch on that encounter is impossible, including fight data.

You don't have to complain about whms to prove that scholars are not functioning. You do realize these posts of yours are nothing more than complaining to get whms nerfed, right? It's obvious.

If you wanted scholars fixed, you would be addressing their issues directly, without constantly complaining about whms.

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Are you kidding? This entire thread started with the point being that SCH need help in the way of stronger aoe and pet fixes and you + a bunch of other whm extremists came in shouting that SCH is fine lol Everytime ideas were put out you and all the other WHM's shot it down, not just shot it down but some of you even had the nerve to say that SCH is not supposed to be able to main heal because that is a WHM's job. Please just stop posting in threads that you don't entirely read. Also, who says WHM's DON'T need a nerf? As long as WHM remain as powerful as they are SCH will always be second rate. It may well be that a combination of buffs to SCH and nerfs to WHM are needed to even the playing field. This was not a call to nerf WHM however tho I am sure some random WHM will say SCH want WHM nerfed lol..

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Originally Posted by Nuclayer

What Utility does a SCH have that is niche or supports a WHM that another WHM does not bring or at least compensate for? In other words, what can a SCH do that no other class do that makes it worth bringing?

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SCH doesn't have any utility that warrants bringing them. My comment before was merely stating that while it may not be intended for us to play a support role that is pretty much what we got since we have a faulty sketchy kit for what is supposed to be our main role.

Infact this is even more true when you consider that 2 WHM's can do anything with 0 problems, 1 WHM and 1 SCH working together is a bigger benefit to the WHM than it is to the SCH, and 2 SCH is just detrimental to each other AND the group. Could 2 SCH work? Sure, prolly but the amount of extra work involved, the flawless gameplay of the group etc are all factors in this which begs the question of why didn't you just get a pair of WHM's?...

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Originally Posted by Alu79

I am in complete agreement with you, was just stating it plainly for the guy that asked.




Everytime ideas were put out you and all the other WHM's shot it down, not just shot it down but some of you even had the nerve to say that SCH is not supposed to be able to main heal because that is a WHM's job.

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I didn't say everything is fine- I said pets needed to be fixed. It just becomes a bit much when people start saying "give scholars medica, give scholars whm abilities" or post inaccurate numbers purporting to be fact to prove a point. I also specifically said that SCH was advertised as a full fledged main healer, and this "support healer" nonsense is bunk.

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SCH doesn't have any utility that warrants bringing them. My comment before was merely stating that while it may not be intended for us to play a support role that is pretty much what we got since we struggle at what is supposed to be our main role.

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You mean SCH x 2. There is plenty of evidence supporting that SCH + WHM is ideal. Again, you are distorting things. That is why it is best to leave whm out of the conversation and just deal with the issue at hand.

Besides, posting data and evidence is how classes get changed- whining about other classes doesn't work. Post some real evidence and fight data to support your claims. Whining about whms |= an argument for SCH improvements.

sch is fine except for their crap pet ai.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Just curious- what does a blm do that no other class does to make it worth bringing? With the exception of bards... and maybe paladins (stuns)... what exactly is so unique about any class that makes it so necessary?

It's why every dps wants to be the highest/every healer wants to be the healiest/every tank wants to be the tankiest- because if they aren't they say-

"What can I do that no one else can do that makes me worth taking"? In other words- what makes me a special snowflake and required?

In a completely balanced game- No one has something unique that makes them required.

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Really? Top tier dmg, burst dmg, CC, AoE, Apocotastasis/Virus/Eye for and Eye etc

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Originally Posted by Alu79

Really? Top tier dmg, burst dmg, CC, AoE, Apocotastasis/Virus/Eye for and Eye etc

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Summoner has that stuff, so does sch and whm (sch has improved eye)... Apoc, pfft no one is getting into raids on Apoc. So, if your raid needs CC, okay... I guess..whm could do it, but whatever. What about mnk/drg/summoner?

What do all of them do that is so special? Does every raid require 1 of each job? If that is the goal, then SCH are not alone- lots of jobs need thier special snowflake raid toy... because I am pretty sure there are 8 mans in coil without some jobs.

Sch need to be able to make 300 potency aoe heal per gcd back to back somehow. I think it is the minimum requirement for content to able to heal this much hp.

There is no justification for sch to be terrible aoe healer. Because sch is no way a better tank healer then whm or at least not enough for them to less then half aoe.

If sch was required for some battles in their current state then no buffs required but since they aren't and they may be worse then a 2nd whm in certain situations(hm titan,coil2) they need a buff to their major weakness.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Sch need to be able to make 300 aoe heal per gcd somehow.

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Fair enough... is that the output required for fights? Or is that the output required for 2 SCH to complete a fight? If data shows that, then you have a case. Can't argue with facts.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Summoner has that stuff, so does sch and whm (sch has improved eye)... Apoc, pfft no one is getting into raids on Apoc. So, if your raid needs CC, okay... I guess. What about mnk/drg/summoner?

What do all of them do that is so special? Does every raiod require 1 of each job? If that is the goal, then SCH are not alone- lots of jobs need thier special snowflake raid toy... because I am pretty sure there are 8 mans in coil without some jobs.

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SMN/SCH do not have Burst dmg, CC or worth while AoE. SCH/SMN can spread 3 dots 3 times a minute at the expense of something else like Lustrate or Fester. If adds are clumped, they can drop Shadow Flare, which isn't amazing dmg, lets be honest. And if they are close enough to the mobs that need aoe'ing, they can Miasma 2 for even less amazing dmg. So, no SMN/SCH cannot do "all that" too. It is also besides the point, no one has asked to be a special snowflake. So I am not sure why you bring that up at all.

This entire thread is not about being a special snowflake, it is about parity. Patching up these glaring holes in our kit. We want to be as functional and capable as a WHM.

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Originally Posted by Alu79

This entire thread is not about being a special snowflake, it is about parity. Patching up these glaring holes in our kit. We want to be as functional and capable as a WHM.

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Well, that's your problem. Stop comparing yourself to whm and start providing real evidence that shows

1. What is required for scholar x 2 to successfully complete an encounter
2. Why the current build does not support the required output, or otherwise how the character design acts as a barrier to producing that output
3. Once you have proven change is required, offer suggestions on how to fix the data backed issue.

This thread is 32 pages long, and I haven't seen one serious post that included data! Even the WoW QQ forum posts had SOME data. There is already agreement that half the class needs fixing with the pet.