If you are a WHM without Swiftcast, you are holding back your team at endgame

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Axidrain

nah, this thread is about u gimping ur healer without swiftcast :) just get it. doesnt even take that long. i dont know why u guys are so adamant about getting this lvl 26 cross skill. kinda trivial to get such a useful skill

---

Gimping is such an unnecessary word I guess. We are in agreement on the benefits, just not on the urgency. A WHM should get the skill, there's absolutely no reason not to because it is useful. Sure. But they aren't hurting anyone by not having it. That's my point. They simply aren't. Your party is worse off if it has to have this skill to get by on, in my view.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moirear

Swiftcast allows you to use cast faster overall, whether you're running the role of dps or healer, because you can regularly cast a spell instantly that would take longer otherwise, be it a Medica or whatnot. And good luck tank swapping or peeling enmity without Provoke.

Please stop making up excuses like "these abilities are only good for mistakes."

It's weaksauce, and the only excuse for not having them after a certain point in time is laziness.

---

It's not an excuse at all though that's what you don't seem to understand. There is no one shot move in the game that randomly kills someone requireing an instantious heal or ressurection that cannot be avoided. If people are playing thier roles correctly it isn't needed so seriously stop acting like an improvement is a requirement.

Edit. On swapping without provoke I don't suppose both tanks could keep similar aggro levels and one stop attacking when they needed to swap while the other continues could they? Nah not possible right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leon_Stormrage

I am clueless here... fresh 50 yes, it's okay you can go without any cross class do wp/ak just fine, but you can go with all the tools that you have Swiftcast/raise-protect-medica-cure2/3-stoneskin-holy why you don't want to have it?
Also if you want to do some difficult endgame like coil good look without your cross class abilities...

---

not sure what players your grouping with but already did all end game content without eye and all with the exception of t5 without swiftcast, which i didnt even need.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jyoeru

Nah, why don't you all grab cure instead.

---

BLM can only cross class physick. My scholar prefers physick over cure.

My SCH also isn't a gimp without swiftcast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wildgalax

not sure what players your grouping with but already did all end game content without eye and all with the exception of t5 without swiftcast, which i didnt even need.

---

Try to do it now with your dps and tanks withouts they cross class skills too and tell me :)
Also... you never used swiftcast/cure3 after a fireball in T5? It's a good moment to use it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skotie

It's not an excuse at all though that's what you don't seem to understand. There is no one shot move in the game that randomly kills someone requireing an instantious heal or ressurection that cannot be avoided. If people are playing thier roles correctly it isn't needed so seriously stop acting like an improvement is a requirement.

---

Again, at the risk of pointlessly repeating myself one more time, the only situation where cross-class skills fundamentally matter, is endgame. Swiftcast is not just useful for correcting mistakes, but casting every spell because over time, you will be casting spells must faster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moirear

Again, at the risk of pointlessly repeating myself one more time, the only situation where cross-class skills fundamentally matter, is endgame. Swiftcast is not just useful for correcting mistakes, but casting every spell because over time, you will be casting spells must faster.

---

useful =/= required... no one is arguing that it is not useful, they are pointing out that its not required by healers at any point in the game

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Oh boy here comes the "it's just a video game" jib. If that is the case I'm sure you don't mind being denied teams and content for not being a team player, shouldn't upset you at all.

Literally the only people i have encountered in game who insist you don't need swiftcast are healers who don't have swiftcast. Majority rules so bring to the table what people expect.

"oh man I have to put in effort like everyone else in the group and not just the bare minimum?", find a group that wants to play with someone with that attitude.

---

Well, the reason I say this is kind of the opposite reasoning. The way I see it, you can put all the effort on the front end or the back end. Front end = having situational pots/food/all X-class skills/top end gear/ best enchants or materia or whatever and so on. Then you get to the boss and he dies like a balloon. Then people complain that the content is too easy and they are bored.

Fact is, if they design the game around the min/maxers, they will alienate 95% of the player base. If they don't, then all of these steps you expect the average player to take on are unnecessary and make the game a monotonous grindfest instead of a fun game. That's more of my point. I am not doing anything by majority rules. Majority rules brought us Napoleon. No thanks.

And I am not being denied anything. I had a guy try to deny me the other day because I had a 49 ring for lack of finding a suitable upgrade in light of the order of gear I was getting. Didn't have anything to say after we got in and he saw how I healed. Sure, I gimped my cure 2 by 10 restored HP not having a higher-end ring. So what? If 10 HP makes or breaks anything, then that's an issue.

Face it, most people are not coming to the table WELL UNDERPREPARED. They just aren't coming to the table with a nuclear bomb to kill a rabbit. And that's fine, too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hitome

BLM can only cross class physick. My scholar prefers physick over cure.

My SCH also isn't a gimp without swiftcast.

---

That's right, because SCH rezzes are all instant cast. I forgot!

And you got my point. No difference in the spells.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shizato

useful =/= required... no one is arguing that it is not useful, they are pointing out that its not required by healers at any point in the game

---

Nobody reasonable is arguing that you "require" cross-class skills to play the game. My argument is that you're lazy and/or inefficient if you're not doing so, though, because come endgame, they give you huge advantages that people will absolutely want you in their party for because you're twice as useful as someone who's lacking them.

the only thing I'm worried about is which potentially useful skil people don't have 'on their screen' because of the demand for a whm to have swiftcast. sorry if this has been asked before, but I have no idea how the end game progression FCs are handling this. I take 8 man groups are using one whm and one sch? are both supposed to have swiftcast?

I'm thinking for example if someone stacked their skillpoints on their summoner for int, obviously they would want to use cleric stance when they play scholar. so that's already one cross skill lost for that. then a second one for swiftcast... (I'm not too familar with scholar, I'm just thinking here)

so which other skills may be useful for a whm that will not be useable if they have swiftcast? are they supposed to have both swiftcast and surecast? (I mean, surecast does seem kiiind of useless with swiftcast but I don't know how high the percentage for an interrupt is during the not-completely-instant casts in this game)

edit: sorry if none of this makes sense I'm a little insomniac and have nothing better to do than think about this game :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moirear

Nobody reasonable is arguing that you "require" cross-class skills to play the game. My argument is that you're lazy and/or inefficient if you're not doing so, though, because come endgame, they give you huge advantages that people will absolutely want you in their party for because you're twice as useful as someone who's lacking them.

---

so? plenty of ppl to play with that dont care about it as well, so it doesnt matter

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shizato

useful =/= required... no one is arguing that it is not useful, they are pointing out that its not required by healers at any point in the game

---

Melee dps died, we need melee lb or we are going to wipe. So, a) do a normal res and wipe because the healer is not healing and all of us died.
Or b) directly wipe because the healer do not have swiftcast but never mind it is useful but not necessary

And cueck don't blame the melee it is not the point because if you are not able to res him are as bad as him dying

Sod the raise. Swiftcast and succor
You should dodge better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moirear

Again, at the risk of pointlessly repeating myself one more time, the only situation where cross-class skills fundamentally matter, is endgame. Swiftcast is not just useful for correcting mistakes, but casting every spell because over time, you will be casting spells must faster.

---

This is a horrible point. If I have swiftcast, it is an oh-shi button. If you're using it for any other reason, you're derping and negating the value of having it to begin with. Now you're making it a part of your rotation. Wow! You saved exactly 6 seconds of casting time through the fight, and we won so much harder because of that!!!!!!!!!111!1!!1!!!1!!!!

Sorry, nope. This does not work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leon_Stormrage

Melee dps died, we need melee lb or we are going to wipe. So, a) do a normal res and wipe because the healer is not healing and all of us died.
Or b) directly wipe because the healer do not have swiftcast but never mind it is useful but not necessary

And cueck don't blame the melee it is not the point because if you are not able to res him are as bad as him dying

---

if dps keeps dying to avoidable dmg then replace the dps

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leon_Stormrage

Try to do it now with your dps and tanks withouts they cross class skills too and tell me :)
Also... you never used swiftcast/cure3 after a fireball in T5? It's a good moment to use it

---

That is actually one of the best moments to utilise that spell. However its usually not necessary since i can precast and time it exacly when fireball happens. Not very hard with practice and when you know everything is coming. If i get careless or get conflag'd then sure i can use it, however i can go without it easily. And not sure why bringing dps and tanks i dont play these jobs and last i checked this thread was about whm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leon_Stormrage

Melee dps died, we need melee lb or we are going to wipe. So, a) do a normal res and wipe because the healer is not healing and all of us died.
Or b) directly wipe because the healer do not have swiftcast but never mind it is useful but not necessary

And cueck don't blame the melee it is not the point because if you are not able to res him are as bad as him dying

---

Well, you win this thread .01% of the time! Well, I'm sorry, .001%, because you see, what happened here was that the tank took a huge spike, and I cast Swift/CureIII on him, and then that DPS died 10 seconds later, so I didn't have Swiftcast up. So no matter what happens, just know that according to this guy, it's always the healer's fault we wiped.

hehe! i think people are just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. well, if it works for u then thats good for u. im used to df'ing my runs so i find it very useful. if u play with a static everytime then u can get by i guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jyoeru

Well, you win this thread .01% of the time! Well, I'm sorry, .001%, because you see, what happened here was that the tank took a huge spike, and I cast Swift/CureIII on him, and then that DPS died 10 seconds later, so I didn't have Swiftcast up. So no matter what happens, just know that according to this guy, it's always the healer's fault we wiped.

---

Hhahaha okay yes, never mind don't use it, I will continue doing my life easier with it my runs smother and all happy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shizato

so? plenty of ppl to play with that dont care about it as well, so it doesnt matter

---

That's a fallacy.

"A lot of people don't care about crime in their city, so it doesn't matter" is also a fitting example of a fallacy, based on a fallacious line of thought.

"It's foggy out and I haven't crashed into anything yet, therefore I must be on the right road to my destination" is along those lines. One thing doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other.

Just because plenty of people don't care about something, doesn't mean that they're not being defensive about being wrong when it comes to its usefulness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shizato

if dps keeps dying to avoidable dmg then replace the dps

---

Thank you. I swear I heard someone tell me that when your dead laying on the ground your dps drops to zero not sure if that's true though, you think they might try to avoid the stuff but it's easier to just blame it on your healer or lag.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leon_Stormrage

Melee dps died, we need melee lb or we are going to wipe. So, a) do a normal res and wipe because the healer is not healing and all of us died.
Or b) directly wipe because the healer do not have swiftcast but never mind it is useful but not necessary

And cueck don't blame the melee it is not the point because if you are not able to res him are as bad as him dying

---

What if, I reasonably and efficiently used a Swift Cast/Cure III to heal party (including said DD) and he was too stubborn/stupid to gather up for the cure in the first place causing his death?
Swiftcast only ever being saved for Raises is inefficient and not the overall best use of the ability. It is best used for Big cure spam moments and/or for a Party-wide cure while on the run. (moving into position/avoiding aoe damage etc).

It's DD's assuming they can make mistakes without it costing the party the wipe and putting all the blame at the mages' feet here that's the problem. Should every mage learn Swiftcast? Of course. Should you be able to dictate how/when I use it? No. Healers don't make posts about how Monks should do their rotations and which skills they should 'save' in case WE screw up...DD's should show the Healers some respect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

...

---

The fact that you had it but you used it for other situation is entirely different to the healer that don't have it... I am not blaming anyone also I don't mind playing with healers without swiftcast, at one moment I played my sch without it and done it fine.
But this is a skill that all mages should have...
Also I totally agree with the great utility that it have with other abilities and keeping it only to res could be inefficient my last comment was only an example

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

It's DD's assuming they can make mistakes without it costing the party the wipe and putting all the blame at the mages' feet here that's the problem. Should every mage learn Swiftcast? Of course. Should you be able to dictate how/when I use it? No. Healers don't make posts about how Monks should do their rotations and which skills they should 'save' in case WE screw up.

---

According to the people in this thread you are also bad for having used cureIII with swiftcast. And I use mantra for when tanks/heals screw up... Someone feeds a spider or two they shouldn't have? Mantra. DPS way to slow and we are being aoed to death... mantra. One healer stood in the bad stuff? Mantra.

I guess all Brds and Mnks should give up invigorate and blood for blood... Its not our fault the healers ran out of MP from the fight taking to long, they should have been better. Blm should skip quelling strikes. Its not their problem tanks can't handle threat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moirear

That's a fallacy.

"A lot of people don't care about crime in their city, so it doesn't matter" is also a fitting example of a fallacy, based on a fallacious line of thought.

"It's foggy out and I haven't crashed into anything yet, therefore I must be on the right road to my destination" is along those lines. One thing doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other.

Just because plenty of people don't care about something, doesn't mean that they're not being defensive about being wrong when it comes to its usefulness.

---

its only a fallacy if i run out of ppl to play with that dont care if i have it or not since i dont NEED it in order to be able to heal JUST FINE FOR THEM them thru ANY content we do, and since i have not, it really doesnt matter

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noroi_Kisaragi

A swiftcasted raise is probably the most useful thing a white mage could possibly do at Endgame, among the many other uses for Swiftcast. Yet almost everysingle time I go into DF, the White Mage never has Swiftcast, and we wipe. Everytime the WHM does have swiftcast, we win, coincidence? I think not.

You should not be healing endgame with a WHM at all until you learn Swiftcast. If you don't know this ability, you are holding back your team. Does anybody else agree? Is Swiftcast a vitally important ability for a White Mage to have? What are your thoughts?

---

Statement: If a healer doesn't have Swiftcast /kick simple as that. This would be like a War not having Provoke or Flash...

Hey look an elitist post! how novel, I second the notion if people werent getting dead, they would need no raise at all.
DEMANDING stuff from other players.... is rude. I havnt had Swiftcast FOREVER, and I still can easily do much job as well with others with it. So, this thread is pointless.

It's better to have it and not need to use it then to need it and not have it.

I wish people like these were around when I was playing ffxi. No need to lvl up my ninja sub. No need to break all my beastmen seals to try for an utsusemi ni scroll and then not having it drop at all and having to spend loads to buy the scroll instead. Because they will tell me it'll be okay.

It'll be okay.

Having read all 31 pages of this thread I'm really surprised at the attitude of some people. Swiftcast makes you better, why not get it? Other jobs have the same problem, as a BLM I need Quelling Strikes, I know it's my responsibility to get it and don't blame the tanks for not holding hate. Tanks need voke etc... So whm is not alone in needing to get cross class skills. Nobody is saying you need it yesterday but refusing to get it at all because you think it's too much like hard work is a terrible attitude and not one those terrible DD's you keep talking about probably share.

If a DD goes down and you need to raise him, then, just do it already, that's the role you chose to play and it's a team game and you can't always say it's his own fault, there are plenty of area wide attacks in this game which cannot be avoided, lag happens, what if I'm in the middle of my LB and can't move to get out of PAoE? What if the player to go down is the second healer in 8 man content? seems like some of you guys would just blame the DD's, wipe and then get on your pedestal.

The idea that whm don't need to get Swiftcast because a KO is always the fault of the player KO'd is frankly retarded, should we not have air ambulances because if you're in a car crash it's you own fault? How about getting mugged in a dark alley, should the police not investigate?

Just get Swiftcast already, honestly....

People without SC say things like "people who require SC are elitist" except they have the attitude that "i'm better than everyone, I don't need SC. If you die it's your fault."

Pro-tip: That's the elitist attitude you are accusing others of having.

I have SC, I just hardly use it. I am used to timing my raises inbetween aoe's and attacks to get them up in a good time and heal them before the next swing/move.
There is nothing wrong with saying "you shouldnt die", a dead dps - is no dps.
People do sling the word Troll and Elitist around like crazy, but absolutely demanding an entire class to have a spell to do content - what is that?

It is people wanting the most options. What is elitist about having an emergency button?

Should you kick people who don't have it? Not if they're working on it, even slowly.

Should you kick people who refuse to get it based on some bologna reason? Yep.

What if I dont want to get it because it was demanded of me? Instead of people straight out saying " You have this or get out" ,
you could be like - Hey this spell will improve your ability to raise people and keep up good heals.
I am more affected of how people approach me and Tell me how to play my job, more often than offering me help.

Just recently I had people CAPPING -
DONT SUCK, KNOW THIS OR DONT BOTHER, BLAH BLAH BLAH.

why not -
Please know the fight before entering, and have any extra skills available.

Stop killing morale, and help each other instead of ordering others around. Thats how I feel, and Ive hardly played this game. Im already saddened by the attitudes of people.
Its a game that people pay to play, so why cant they do what they want? Sure as hell your not paying them to play.

"I don't want to cuz they said I have to" is not a good reason. You'd get it anyway, but since they said to... Eff that! It's simply being a contrarian, which is bologna.

A lot can be gained by using tact, agreed, but refusing to get something useful for a perceived slight to one's character is petty and unjustifiable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by koikitty

What if I dont want to get it because it was demanded of me?

---

Then you're being stubborn for the sake of it, how is that a good thing? I cannot think of a single situation in the whole history of mankind where being stubborn has helped, it's one of the most self detrimental human emotions of all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by koikitty

Stop killing morale, and help each other instead of ordering others around. Thats how I feel, and Ive hardly played this game. Im already saddened by the attitudes of people.
Its a game that people pay to play, so why cant they do what they want? Sure as hell your not paying them to play.

---

I would agree with you if you where playing a single player game, but you're not, you're playing a co-op game. If I'm picked to play goal at a football match but I don't want to, because I prefer to play as a striker should I ignore what everyone else wants and try and score? I paid to play like everyone else, so why not? You lose individuality when you play with other people, if you don't like it then don't play with other people, simple.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

Having read all 31 pages of this thread I'm really surprised at the attitude of some people. Swiftcast makes you better, why not get it? Other jobs have the same problem, as a BLM I need Quelling Strikes...

---

I haven't seen any threads that state 'If you don't have 'Quelling Strikes' as a BLM, you're hodling back your team'. I have, however, seen threads like 'Hey guys, Quelling Strikes is fan-tastic for BLM'. That might be why you're getting such feedback. But more to the point...

My problem with 'demanding' swiftcast - Swiftcast is a luxury. I can think of nearly 0 situations where Swiftcast + Raise has truly saved the day, why? Because when you are raised:

You lose ALL active buffs (except food now!) - Which means that you are taking MORE damage and dealing LESS damage until you either get back in the groove or you are re-protected (which, will NOT be used via Swiftcast, knocking out 2 GCD worth of healing to potentially theatening situations)

You gain a debuff that cripples you. You are, as a whole, doing less damage, and have less life to live with.

I wont disagree that a person alive is worth more than a person dead, but it is a bigger MP drain and, depending on the fight, is near useless (KB fight, Titan, etc).

Having the skill is a luxury. It's nice, it's not necessary. It is not holding the team back - You can progress through, I'd go with 99% of the content without swiftcast. It may be harder, yes, but it's the same as not having quelling strikes, the same as not using Virus as a BLM, or Lethargy (I happen to be a BLM so I'm thinking of all the fun stuff I fail to use). It's the same as not using Second Wind on MNK (because the healer should be healing - TBH Second wind should be on near cooldown), or not using Blood for Blood on DRG. All these things are luxuries.

[QUOTE=Artemiz;1736179





pretty selfish to tell someone to not play since you dont like the way someone chooses to experience the game. Also your analogy is pretty pathetic, a healer is not going to stop being a healer/support just cause they choose not to get swiftcast or do some dps or w/e other reason. But nice try.

I found out today about this spell. Been doing dungoens without it without any major issues. Hell we even got to Siren when my gear level was 51-52 without any major issues. We failed on Siren thou due to connections issue on the dps.

Anyway I see this spell as a useful spell. And I will be leveling to get it. BUT it is not needed to do high end stuff. It will help a lot. But if DPS and tank avoids AoE dmg then it is mostly there as an panic button.