People who can't do AOE rotations in 70+ Content

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

You're playing a video game. That comes with the silent agreement that you're not going to win every encounter. You're not going to clear every fight. Unless you're playing a game designed to be chill and relaxed, like Stardew Valley, you are going to fail encounters, even easy ones sometimes.

That said, I have never... I repeat: NEVER ran a dungeon that timed out due to someone screwing up over and over having played this game since literally day 1 of ARR. I have multiple times encountered players who didn't do mechanics right and wiped sometimes once, sometimes several times. We still cleared the dungeon.

Not every player is going to be great. Some are going to not know how to play. Oh well. That's what you sign up for when you play an online game. If that's not your cup of tea, then I recommend single player games instead.

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Actually the correct statement is that if you are going to be a burden then stick to Trusts, unsub, etc

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Imagine thinking we don't know you

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Imagine thinking you do with no evidence. You're boring me btw

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Actually the correct statement is that if you are going to be a burden then stick to Trusts, unsub, etc

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That's actually not the correct statement. I would describe that more accurate as an obnoxious, arrogant, egotistical, moronic, asinine, absurd, and disrespectful statement, actually.

I'll join the chorus and scream into the void, why not.

In my opinion as a long time player, Final Fantasy XIV is an accessible game and it has an exceptionally low skill floor. The majority of normal content has a generous timer, is incredibly lenient of mistakes and can be completed by almost anyone given enough time. Some of it is easier with bots. Some of it can be brute forced. Wipes seem to generally occur in content that requires above average performance such as, infamously, Titania normal which requires both tanks or one tank to maintain enmity on two mobs.

The people responsible for maintaining and developing the game have done very little to try and raise the skill floor, on the contrary in many ways the game is less complex and more streamlined than it was during A Realm Reborn.
This is not necessarily a bad thing. For example, establishing and maintaining enmity is easier than it has ever been and much of the content has been streamlined into the current corridor to boss format.

None of what's generally considered normal content explicitly requires healers to DPS. Tank swaps are exceedingly rare. None of the content requires performing what's generally thought of as a proper rotation, much less a good opener. Performing nothing but auto-attacks is considered participation in the duty from what I've gathered from GM responses. The mentor system has received almost no meaningful updates and is generally, anecdotally, derided as a failure.
This is not necessarily a good thing.

In my opinion nothing can be done. I can't see a solution to the problem of the low skill floor, because I don't think the developers or the majority of players necessarily consider it a problem.
Thankfully this is not a competitive game like World of Tanks where your progress and win rate relies at least partially on your team not being potatoes.

My personal method revolves around controlling the things within my control.
Do your best, if someone is visibly performing poorly, call attention to it, ask. If they're receptive, great.
If someone is obviously sandbagging or leeching, call them out and consider a kick. If it doesn't go through and you don't feel like participating in carrying, leave the duty, let someone else pick up the slack.
If you don't want to deal with single pulls in Alzadaal's Legacy, content so easy that it can be completed with a tank and three DPS players, take the penalty and leave the duty.

The people you describe who don't want to, or don't know how to use AoE have a right to clear the content. But you also have the right to choose not to participate as long as you open up your slot to someone who wants to.

Value your time and joy. You pay your own subscription as well, but there is always, Elden Ring.

Try fingers but hole

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

That's actually not the correct statement.

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Yes, it was. Your input is unnecessary on the matter. Facts are facts regardless of your input

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Yes, it was. Your input is unnecessary on the matter. Facts are facts regardless of your input

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I don't think you know what a "fact" is actually. I suppose you arrogantly assuming that your experience is above that of everyone else's experience may be a fact though. The entitlement is palpable.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I don't think you know what a "fact" is actually. I suppose you arrogantly assuming that your experience is above that of everyone else's experience may be a fact though. The entitlement is palpable.

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It's funny because bads weigh down groups thinking their experience is above that of the whole. Needs of the many and all that

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Originally Posted by FireMage

It's funny because bads weigh down groups thinking their experience is above that of the whole. Needs of the many and all that

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That's blatantly untrue. People who aren't playing well are probably thinking "wow, this is a fun dungeon!"

The fact that you think bad players are out to get you is delusional. Maybe you have an issue having lots of players grief you because of your arrogant and elitist attitude?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

That's blatantly untrue. People who aren't playing well are probably thinking "wow, this is a fun dungeon!"

The fact that you think bad players are out to get you is delusional. Maybe you have an issue having lots of players grief you because of your arrogant and elitist attitude?

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Their thoughts, as well as yours are irrelevant. A burden is still a burden, and must be excised

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Their thoughts, as well as yours are irrelevant. A burden is still a burden, and must be excised

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Okay Vauthry. Have fun excising the sin of our existences.

Imagine defending people that play worse than Trusts. Oof

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Imagine defending people that play worse than Trusts. Oof

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Listen, Vauthry. I'd rather have 3 players worse than trusts and work with them to ensure they have an enjoyable experience than suffer a single roulette with your inflated ego. I don't like to associate with tyrants.

One person in this argument is wrong and the other's an asshole I don't know which one to root for

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Originally Posted by SylvAlternate

One person in this argument is wrong and the other's an asshole I don't know which one to root for

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I laughed way to hard at this

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Originally Posted by Harpeizanae

The people you describe who don't want to, or don't know how to use AoE have a right to clear the content. But you also have the right to choose not to participate as long as you open up your slot to someone who wants to.

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Exactly. I don't know why this gets some people so triggered that they spend multiple paragraphs trying to convince people there is nothing we can do to improve the situation. Ofc we can. We can refuse to play with people who refuse to read their tooltips either by kicking or leaving. There should be nothing controversial about it.

*ready to getting Popcorn and enjoy this Thread*
You can write here 1 sentence and BAM all are enraging. MUHAHAHAhaha

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Their thoughts, as well as yours are irrelevant. A burden is still a burden, and must be excised

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Gonna take this as the okay to consider your thoughts irrelevant as well. *thumbs up*

Better yet, how about we all consider each other irrelevant and just do whatever we want? Since that's what's ultimately going to happen anyway when this thread gets buried in a day or two by the next drama that everyone flocks to.

Imagine gate keeping people from online content in normal duties. Lets not lie to ourselves, the normal content of FFXIV is not precisely hard, it is designed so anyone can complete it. Thats why we can actually do "wall to wall" play through otherwise it would be impossible or not as common as it is.

Should people always try to use AOE? yes. It is the end of the run if they dont? No, and I have my share of runs with players that are clueless of how to run a quick duty. You slow down the phasing and tell them in the chat that they should go AOE. Even if they dont ignore it, nobody is going to die because the duty was 10 minutes longer.

Who would win between "you don't pay my sub" and "wannabe gatekeeping guy that has more uptime on vuln stacks and damage downs than on bosses?"

Perhaps this thread can reveal the answer.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Who would win between "you don't pay my sub" and "wannabe gatekeeping guy that has more uptime on vuln stacks and damage downs than on bosses?"

Perhaps this thread can reveal the answer.

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implying these forums can ever agree on a conclusive answer to anything

My point is just that this whole cycle of yelling onto the forums about having 1 dungeon run where you wiped once to the second boss and your Tuesday leveling roulette took an extra 6 minutes is not the end of the world and it's not indicative of some rampant issue where trying to do your dungeon runs has become impossible due to bad players. Boo hoo, you spent an extra few minutes helping a sprout MNK clear Cutter's Cry for the first time. What a travesty.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

My point is just that this whole cycle of yelling onto the forums about having 1 dungeon run where you wiped once to the second boss and your Tuesday leveling roulette took an extra 6 minutes is not the end of the world and it's not indicative of some rampant issue where trying to do your dungeon runs has become impossible due to bad players. Boo hoo, you spent an extra few minutes helping a sprout MNK clear Cutter's Cry for the first time. What a travesty.

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Sometimes, it's just best to remember https://xkcd.com/386/.

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Originally Posted by KenaiChoppa

Imagine gate keeping people from online content in normal duties

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Imagine actually not "gatekeeping" (it's actually called having standards btw)

the short and simple..,
the complacent won't want to change like vauthry. while everyone else agrees that issues be kicked, and nee learning players be taught when they need a helping hand.

end of story.
<I used Vauthry, cause while I found their reasoning logical, not in this topic.>

it's what has always boiled down too

it ain't rampant, but things always change, it can get worse, just like it could never be anything to worry about ever.

but what gets people is the assumed intent to be toxic, vile. when that's not the case in either side. but always easier to be one when you assume the other side is..,
specially if you are "protecting" something you think is innocent. when that isn't the target.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

They are pretty low, trust me. Sometimes people are just beyond that depth to the point where I feel compelled to say something about it lol

I'm not even asking for the like the full gamut of your AoE abilities either. I'd be fine with someone spamming the first part of their AoE on repeat as opposed to going through their single target combo several times over.

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Theres a guy i had to blacklist after running into him multiple times.. his playstyle is Auto-Attack only Samurai and dont dodge mechanics.

I called him out for not pressing abilities and got called toxic lmao.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Again, I invented nothing. If you aren't going to read then don't reply, that includes your tooltips

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Where did I say I didnt read tooltips or read up on how Scholar works? Where did I even say I didnt understand how Scholar works?

I didnt, you invented a load of stuff around the little I did say. If anyone should learn to read, maybe go back and read what I did say.

I'll repeat. Switching from Summoner at around lv60 into Scholar made Scholar harder than it needed to be because you have to learn how to play the role at a higher level. While it can be done, its not exactly good design. I also said that transitioning from regen to shield healer on lv60 content was difficult. Again, dont think this was the best design decision and think Scholar should level separately from Summoner from lv30 like other jobs considering its the second healer available and first shield healer.

I said my first few trials were rough, not that they were a horror show.

So how do you get from that, a criticism of how the game handles certain jobs, to rambling about tooltips and "bah casual" makes no sense.

Exceot, it does. Its because youre constantly on the offensive and are so bitter and consumed in your own little bubble that you see anyone who doesnt think exactly the same as you as less than you.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

I'll repeat. Switching from Summoner at around lv60 into Scholar made Scholar harder than it needed to be because you have to learn how to play the role at a higher level. While it can be done, its not exactly good design. I also said that transitioning from regen to shield healer on lv60 content was difficult. Again, dont think this was the best design decision and think Scholar should level separately from Summoner from lv30 like other jobs considering its the second healer available and first shield healer.

I said my first few trials were rough, not that they were a horror show.

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I did something similar except I did it at 68. It was a LOT to learn all at once. I totally get why it took you some time to really get comfy with it.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Imagine actually not "gatekeeping" (it's actually called having standards btw)

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When the standards are inflated above what's needed to clear the content, it's called gatekeeping.

For most content, I find that the standard of "this is a decent human being" works well. I'd rather carry the worst player in the game through content as long as they're a decent human being over getting stuck in a group with a jerk regardless of how good a player they are.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Imagine actually not "gatekeeping" (it's actually called having standards btw)

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No, saying "people should play the game how I like it to be played" is gatekeeping. In fact, not using AoE and focus in one enemy is better in some pulls because of some "nasty" enemies AoE that will make the tank have a hard time. As long as they are doing enough DPS there is not a HUGE impact if they are focusing in one target o just attacking the whole pack. Worse case scenario tank can (and should) adjust the phase.

Besides, "standards"? what? Are you the most valuable player that bless the rest of the party and everyone should make the rest of the run as quick as possible to not waste your time? Nothing against you, but the only standard is "Can we finish the duty?" (and it should only be "is this guy willing to work in a party", but i think both things goes hand in hand) and not doing AoE attacks does not means that the duty will fail. If the party wipe, it is probably for another reason.

... can't believe people are defending griefing but... well...

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Originally Posted by KenaiChoppa

No, saying "people should play the game how I like it to be played" is gatekeeping. In fact, not using AoE and focus in one enemy is better in some pulls because of some "nasty" enemies AoE that will make the tank have a hard time. As long as they are doing enough DPS there is not a HUGE impact if they are focusing in one target o just attacking the whole pack. Worse case scenario tank can (and should) adjust the phase.

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You are still better off AoEing the whole pack. The damage from that more dangerous mob is not that much when compared to a whole pack, so killing off the weaker things first means you take less total damage.

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Originally Posted by KenaiChoppa

No, saying "people should play the game how I like it to be played" is gatekeeping. In fact, not using AoE and focus in one enemy is better in some pulls because of some "nasty" enemies AoE that will make the tank have a hard time. As long as they are doing enough DPS there is not a HUGE impact if they are focusing in one target o just attacking the whole pack. Worse case scenario tank can (and should) adjust the phase.

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the only place where this is actually valid is Alzadaals, where those mob spawners can be STed so they don't spawn anything, anywhere else you are a massive detriment by using ST in AOE
going from thousands of potency every GCD on a big pull to like 300 potency a GCD is not worth the tank taking damage from 1 less mob

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

When the standards are inflated above what's needed to clear the content, it's called gatekeeping.

For most content, I find that the standard of "this is a decent human being" works well. I'd rather carry the worst player in the game through content as long as they're a decent human being over getting stuck in a group with a jerk regardless of how good a player they are.

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Gross

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Originally Posted by KenaiChoppa

No, saying "people should play the game how I like it to be played" is gatekeeping. In fact, not using AoE and focus in one enemy is better in some pulls because of some "nasty" enemies AoE that will make the tank have a hard time. As long as they are doing enough DPS there is not a HUGE impact if they are focusing in one target o just attacking the whole pack. Worse case scenario tank can (and should) adjust the phase.

Besides, "standards"? what? Are you the most valuable player that bless the rest of the party and everyone should make the rest of the run as quick as possible to not waste your time? Nothing against you, but the only standard is "Can we finish the duty?" (and it should only be "is this guy willing to work in a party", but i think both things goes hand in hand) and not doing AoE attacks does not means that the duty will fail. If the party wipe, it is probably for another reason.

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Yes, standards, people playing at a very accessible skill level and not being burdens to the player base at large

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Originally Posted by SylvAlternate

the only place where this is actually valid is Alzadaals, where those mob spawners can be STed so they don't spawn anything, anywhere else you are a massive detriment by using ST in AOE
going from thousands of potency every GCD on a big pull to like 300 potency a GCD is not worth the tank taking damage from 1 less mob

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also the Roilers in Amaurot, since until they die, the healer will have debuffed healing and that could also pose issues.

To go full AOE or not is a decision that needs to be made from the start of the battle, and there are more reasons for me not to go full AOE. One of them is me, and the tank can kill a larger mob while the other DPS and healer do AOE with the support from the tank who almost always does AOE, and in the end, all mobs will be dead at the same time due to the more substantial DPS on the bigger guy and in this scenario could even shorten the fight.
Also, as a red mage, I will never do AOE if there are fewer than three mobs.
I'm not sure if you are DPS, tank, or healer, but you're doing lvl70 content, so you should have some experience and understand this concept.
But in the end it's up to the person in question how he/she wanna play the game.

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Originally Posted by Aron73

To go full AOE or not is a decision that needs to be made from the start of the battle, and there are more reasons for me not to go full AOE. One of them is me, and the tank can kill a larger mob while the other DPS and healer do AOE with the support from the tank who almost always does AOE, and in the end, all mobs will be dead at the same time due to the more substantial DPS on the bigger guy and in this scenario could even shorten the fight.
Also, as a red mage, I will never do AOE if there are fewer than three mobs.
I'm not sure if you are DPS, tank, or healer, but you're doing lvl70 content, so you should have some experience and understand this concept.
But in the end it's up to the person in question how he/she wanna play the game.

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How they want to play is irrelevant if they are being a burden

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Originally Posted by SnowVix

also the Roilers in Amaurot, since until they die, the healer will have debuffed healing and that could also pose issues.

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Those roilers only debuffs healing magic, doesn't affect healing amount coming from oGCDs which is where most of their healing comes from. Even when the healer in question is a WHM, they're pretty much still negligible so long everybody sticks to their AoE rotations.

EDIT: I have only seen this became an actual issue when I’ve been paired with that one random BRD who told the party to focus the roiler because it makes my life (SCH) harder if they’re ‘left alive too long.’ Surely enough by doing that, the tank took more damage in long run due to prolonged overall pack lifespan. I just told them to AoE like monkey after first boss then suddenly we’re clearing packs twice as fast. A magic perhaps!? Yeah no. Just slapping the ground like usual. No magic tricks.

If folks are worried about certain enemy needing to die first then the best thing they could do is to target that enemy to ensure all auto attacks & AoE with damage fall offs still hit harder. Bonus point if they know how to use their Low Blow/Leg Sweep/Interject/Head Graze appropriately.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

How they want to play is irrelevant if they are being a burden

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Don't misunderstand me. As I said, there are several ways to DPS, Tank, and Heal. I learn from you guys how to Tank and DPS, and with you guys, I mean everyone I played with some far, but that doesn't mean I come up with ideas of my own that improve and sometimes make it worse, but in the end, we learn from experience, all of us does, and I'm sure everyone wishes to be good at what they are doing so they will change. So the bottom line is some times it is good to AOE, and sometimes it is not, even though you have 20+ enemies around you.

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Originally Posted by Aron73

So the bottom line is some times it is good to AOE, and sometimes it is not, even though you have 20+ enemies around you.

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No, it is always better to AoE, until you have about 2-3 mobs left. Even if you have a mob that summons more, or does a bit more damage or one that gives a debuff, you are still better off AoEing everything. If there is a priority target and you have an AoE that does more to the first target, then you focus your AoE around that mob, it dies quickly and you still have the rest of the pack weaker. Pull stake less time, tanks take less damage, and so tanks and healers use less resources. Even if you have a mob that is incredibly beefy, you are better off AoEing the weaker mobs down, then focusing on the big one. That beefy one is only dangerous with everything else around it, once they are all dead, it becomes just like anything else, a non issue.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

No, it is always better to AoE, until you have about 2-3 mobs left. Even if you have a mob that summons more, or does a bit more damage or one that gives a debuff, you are still better off AoEing everything. If there is a priority target and you have an AoE that does more to the first target, then you focus your AoE around that mob, it dies quickly and you still have the rest of the pack weaker. Pull stake less time, tanks take less damage, and so tanks and healers use less resources. Even if you have a mob that is incredibly beefy, you are better off AoEing the weaker mobs down, then focusing on the big one. That beefy one is only dangerous with everything else around it, once they are all dead, it becomes just like anything else, a non issue.

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Then I guess we have a different view of things, but in the end, I got enough confirmation that I'm a good DPS and tank to believe I'm doing a good job my way, but it doesn't mean I will stop learning. But I'm sorry to say this, but I think your wrong