How could you do this to AST?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

First of all, they aren’t my “buddy”. They are a forum poster I have seen around a bit, but we don’t interact outside of this platform, which I haven’t posted on in ages until very recently. So this has very little to do with us being “buddies”.

Second of all, “chickadee” is slang, but it’s certainly not an insult. Nor is it something “rude”.



It’s more often than not used as a pet name in English, generally towards females. A chickadee is actually a kind of small bird.

And they weren’t talking about literal stripping parties. Their phrase was “identity stripping”, which means something is losing a piece of its identity, i.e., it’s being stripped away. The phrase “biannual stripping party” was a reference to expansion releases where jobs get overhauled and/or lose skills/traits. I get that English likely isn’t your first language but at least try to do a little Googling to understand what they may be saying before jumping to any conclusions. Their post was just them being sardonic.


As for rude things, you were actually the first person to say something rude in this thread. You called me dumb somewhere near the beginning of it, though that post was deleted by a moderator for obvious reasons.

Just because people are rude to you doesn’t mean you have to be rude back. But by all means, stoop to their levels and bask in the hypocrisy of it if that’s what you want to do. Don’t dish it out if you can’t take it, though.

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take your own advise to yourself too your also doing hypocrisy, It is not a perfect world, some people ignore and others is gonna defend their rights and there is nothing wrong with defending oneself even if you wanna use the lame old stoop to their level excuse, its 2021. Also again you talk about hypocrisy yet here you are being rude about english not being my first language and to do googling. Hmm that is not rude LOL? Girl please your doing rude things just as you claim I am. As you say too if you cant take something back then dont dish it out yourself ^^. As to the chickaee is still a insult to me for am not a female tyvm so that is rude.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

If you could stop acting like you're 5 this argument might never have happened. Once upon a time this thread was about AST but instead was derailed because you can't stop wanting the last word. I stop playing for effectively 9 months and it seems it's just business as usual on the official forum.

Constantly going back and editing in gifs doesn't exactly do much to calm matters.

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and your not acting like 5 yourself for calling someone 5? adding insults to injuries do not calm matters again I didnt start gif first they did it first :D. I stop with this whole regen / shield things and they brought it up again.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

take your own advise to yourself too your also doing hypocrisy, It is not a perfect world, some people ignore and others is gonna defend their rights and there is nothing wrong with defending oneself even if you wanna use the lame old stoop to their level excuse, its 2021. Also again you talk about hypocrisy yet here you are being rude about english not being my first language and to do googling. Hmm that is not rude LOL? Girl please your doing rude things just as you claim I am. As you say too if you cant take something back then dont dish it out yourself ^^. As to the chickaee is still a insult to me for am not a female tyvm so that is rude.

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I’m actually being quite civil despite your tone. So I fail to see how I’m the hypocrite here. But there is no point in arguing with someone who only wants to get the last word and “win” an argument on a gaming forum. Frankly, I don’t care what year it is. Being rude in return doesn’t get anyone anywhere. Regardless of the current day, month, or year.

And no, it’s actually not rude to tell someone to Google or look up things they may be unfamiliar with—especially when it comes to nuances in languages. That’s called doing your research. If you had bothered to look up what was being said in the first place, then you would actually understand that the entire post you blew up over was basically dry humor.

Perhaps the phrase in my signature you could look up/Google translate, and maybe ask yourself that very question.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m actually being quite civil despite your tone. So I fail to see how I’m the hypocrite here. But there is no point in arguing with someone who only wants to get the last word and “win” an argument on a gaming forum. Frankly, I don’t care what year it is. Being rude in return doesn’t get anyone anywhere. Regardless of the current day, month, or year.

And no, it’s actually not rude to tell someone to Google or look up things they may be unfamiliar with—especially when it comes to nuances in languages. That’s called doing your research. If you had bothered to look up what was being said in the first place, then you would actually understand that the entire post you blew up over was basically dry humor.

Perhaps the phrase in my signature you could look up/Google translate, and maybe ask yourself that very question.

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It do not matter telling someone to google or research can be seen as rude anything can be seen as bad or good its life. My tone lol , am not even being loud or anything am fine. Who are you to assume someone language without asking? That is rude. Telling someone they do not know how to play a job cause they are good at something of it and bad of something of it is rude* not saying you said this but a few did*.

Honey, I was telling you that if you don't want to be disappointed by changes to your main role, you should probably try swapping to DPS. I said it in a joking way, but I'm only half joking there. If you think you're going to be pleasantly surprised by healer design direction, I wouldn't bet on it.

"Biannual identity stripping party" meaning every two years, healers get identity removed from them. This change is just the most recent one.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Honey, I was telling you that if you don't want to be disappointed by changes to your main role, you should probably try swapping to DPS. I said it in a joking way, but I'm only half joking there. If you think you're going to be pleasantly surprised by healer design direction, I wouldn't bet on it.

"Biannual identity stripping party" meaning every two years, healers get identity removed from them. This change is just the most recent one.

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While what you're saying is true, I'm disappointed that Squeenix is more willing to alter a job's identity (and invalidate the very lore quests they designed), instead of working within the established identities to try new ways of accomplishing better balance. So far, all they've done is diminish QOL and job satisfaction. I'm expecting the new healer job to be insanely popular -- not because it is interesting or fun, but because healers are exhausted by the changes made to their favorites.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Honey, I was telling you that if you don't want to be disappointed by changes to your main role, you should probably try swapping to DPS. I said it in a joking way, but I'm only half joking there. If you think you're going to be pleasantly surprised by healer design direction, I wouldn't bet on it.

"Biannual identity stripping party" meaning every two years, healers get identity removed from them. This change is just the most recent one.

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Honestly, sometimes not even DPS jobs are safe. Just look at what they did to ShB BRD. It’s BRD in name only now. ;w;

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Originally Posted by Side-Eye

While what you're saying is true, I'm disappointed that Squeenix is more willing to alter a job's identity (and invalidate the very lore quests they designed), instead of working within the established identities to try new ways of accomplishing better balance. So far, all they've done is diminish QOL and job satisfaction. I'm expecting the new healer job to be insanely popular -- not because it is interesting or fun, but because healers are exhausted by the changes made to their favorites.

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Which is why I happily threw AST under the bus after I got it to 80 (former healer and AST main). I don't hate everything about the ShB AST, some I even like, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. Personally now I'd just it rather not have cards at all at this point. I moved to SCH but even though it's functional it's a disjointed mess (none of the capstone abilities synergize, fey blessing pretty much useless for the cooldown/heal). They're even changing AST "again" so why would I want to go back to it right now? I'll just wait and see if Endwalker AST makes me care again.

Primarily going to play Sage because I didn't take too kindly to the AST and SCH changes this expansion (the two I bounced between). I pretty much don't have a main job, or role rather. Just bouncing between tank and dps mostly right now.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Honestly, sometimes not even DPS jobs are safe. Just look at what they did to ShB BRD. It’s BRD in name only now. ;w;

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Let's push this back a little further...HwD BRD.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Honestly, sometimes not even DPS jobs are safe. Just look at what they did to ShB BRD. It’s BRD in name only now. ;w;

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Yeesh, don't remind me. I'm furiously knocking on wood that they don't take a hacksaw to RDM. Its core is still intact, but it's only had one expansion to draw that short straw so far.

Then again I'm a former WHM enthusiast. Favorite job starting with some potential but getting stOOpidER every expansion is old hat by now.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Let's push this back a little further...HwD BRD.

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At least HW BRD had party support in the form of MP/TP regen—even if it did cost you 10% damage to use... ShB BRD doesn’t have hardly anything. Troubadour isn’t anything special anymore, and while Minne affecting oGCD healing is nice, it’s not really enough to play into a support role. SB BRD was near perfect but they just had to go and mess with it...

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

At least HW BRD had party support in the form of MP/TP regen—even if it did cost you 10% damage to use... ShB BRD doesn’t have hardly anything. Troubadour isn’t anything special anymore, and while Minne affecting oGCD healing is nice, it’s not really enough to play into a support role. SB BRD was near perfect but they just had to go and mess with it...

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That...is a very good point..

I'm fairly new to AST; with it now being my main cuz I fell in love with it due to the card/buffing system and how stunning all the spells and abilities look. Specially compared to how lackluster/ordinary WHM and SCH abilities/spells look. Going back to your original post, you mentioned that you were going to have to switch because you needed a shield healer since your friend goes WHM; but I've always read/seen that Diurnal Sect should always be your go to choice when playing AST and that you should really only ever use Diurnal when playing with another AST. So you should still be able to play AST just fine.

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Originally Posted by RyoXander

I'm fairly new to AST; with it now being my main cuz I fell in love with it due to the card/buffing system and how stunning all the spells and abilities look. Specially compared to how lackluster/ordinary WHM and SCH abilities/spells look. Going back to your original post, you mentioned that you were going to have to switch because you needed a shield healer since your friend goes WHM; but I've always read/seen that Diurnal Sect should always be your go to choice when playing AST and that you should really only ever use Diurnal when playing with another AST. So you should still be able to play AST just fine.

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The issue people have is that they simply wanted to keep playing Noct AST.

This hasn't really been about numbers because of course AST is still going to be viable when they remove Nocturnal Sect. Over those 30 pages in the thread it's been proven time and time again that mathematically Diurnal is just the superior AST sect, even with a WHM, as long as the fight doesn't literally force you to use shields on top of mitigation to survive.

People are simply disappointed that they now have to play Diurnal because it's the only thing available to them.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The issue people have is that they simply wanted to keep playing Noct AST.

This hasn't really been about numbers because of course AST is still going to be viable when they remove Nocturnal Sect. Over those 30 pages in the thread it's been proven time and time again that mathematically Diurnal is just the superior AST sect, even with a WHM, as long as the fight doesn't literally force you to use shields on top of mitigation to survive.

People are simply disappointed that they now have to play Diurnal because it's the only thing available to them.

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We don't know if they are removing Noct outright (though experience tells me they will just rename Celestial Intersection to Nocturnal Sect) so we will have to wait and see. Though I do hope they take this approach to the healers:

WHM = Pure Healer
SCH = Dual Healer emphasis on Barrier Heal (Eos = Regens, Selene = Barrier)
AST = Dual Healer emphasis on Pure Heal (Diurnal = Regen, Nocturnal = Barrier)
SAG = Barrier Healer

Probably wishful thinking since Yoshi's idea of "balance" is to make each job viable by giving them everything another job has outside of the their Job exclusive gimmick (i.e. cards, faeries, lilies) but even then they couldn't get some of those right. I'm still confused as to why Faeries are just for glamour now.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Though I do hope they take this approach to the healers:

WHM = Pure Healer
SCH = Dual Healer emphasis on Barrier Heal (Eos = Regens, Selene = Barrier)
AST = Dual Healer emphasis on Pure Heal (Diurnal = Regen, Nocturnal = Barrier)
SAG = Barrier Healer

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What I'm expecting is something like this:

WHM = Pure healer with no mobility, no weave, no buffs and no shields.
AST = Pure healer with all the mobility, raid buffs and a shield or two.
SCH = Pure healer with bonus shields and a raid buff or two.
SAG = Pure healer with bonus shields, mitigation and a few shiny toys SCH doesn't get.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

What I'm expecting is something like this:

WHM = Pure healer with no mobility, no weave, no buffs and no shields.
AST = Pure healer with all the mobility, raid buffs and a shield or two.
SCH = Pure healer with bonus shields and a raid buff or two.
SAG = Pure healer with bonus shields, mitigation and a few shiny toys SCH doesn't get.

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Pretty much what it's most likely going to be.

As long as they make Selene relevant again. It’s so sad that they made her just a glamour. They really wanted to kill the meta so they completely destroyed and dismantled Astrologian, Scholar and Bard. As I guess those were jobs that were mandatory in the meta clan.

totally agreed pete, i feel it for the bards, we ast and sch got hit bad but bard got brutalized. Respects to the bards who still plays it and hope yall get some love back I mean it.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

totally agreed pete, i feel it for the bards, we ast and sch got hit bad but bard got brutalized. Respects to the bards who still plays it and hope yall get some love back I mean it.

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Seeing as Ast, Sch and bards have the most forum complaints as far as jobs go, I am hoping SE finally understands what they did was a huge mistake and tries their best to correct it in Endwalker. Just because they wanted to make every job viable and have no priority jobs it doesn’t mean they had to destroy those 3 jobs the way they did. It’s been an aweful almost 2 years for Astros, sch and bards.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

totally agreed pete, i feel it for the bards, we ast and sch got hit bad but bard got brutalized. Respects to the bards who still plays it and hope yall get some love back I mean it.

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I would actually say that dark knight got brutalised the most. They got turned into discount warrior and just like us healers, they haven't been listened to either

Then ast/sch/bard got beaten down into the dirt

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

I would actually say that dark knight got brutalised the most. They got turned into discount warrior and just like us healers, they haven't been listened to either

Then ast/sch/bard got beaten down into the dirt

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I guess this is similar to what it would feel like if canned sardines maintained their awareness.
I wonder what the marinade in the can that is this next expansion's gonna be..?

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

I would actually say that dark knight got brutalised the most. They got turned into discount warrior and just like us healers, they haven't been listened to either

Then ast/sch/bard got beaten down into the dirt

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Which is why I took like 8-9 months off of the game (would've been more but, house is hostage once more). I played AST/some SCH in Stb, and DRK. The expansion was almost ruined for me if not for Viera (even though I swapped off due to no new hairs etc) and the story being good.

The job changes was the biggest gut punch to my enjoyment of the expansion. I'm not even healing right now anymore unless I absolutely have to (which I've gone weeks without). Sad since I used to be a healer main.

I'd also like to point out that every Heavensward job has been reworked at some point, be it good or bad. Just something I've noticed.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

Which is why I took like 8-9 months off of the game (would've been more but, house is hostage once more). I played AST/some SCH in Stb, and DRK. The expansion was almost ruined for me if not for Viera (even though I swapped off due to no new hairs etc) and the story being good.

The job changes was the biggest gut punch to my enjoyment of the expansion. I'm not even healing right now anymore unless I absolutely have to (which I've gone weeks without). Sad since I used to be a healer main.

I'd also like to point out that every Heavensward job has been reworked at some point, be it good or bad. Just something I've noticed.

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Same, this expansion's job changes basically made it so the only reason I logged in was my house and the story, and once I was done with the story in 5.1, I've been putting the game down until it came to 5.4 and I been slowly levelling monk again since it has turned into 2.0 monk.

I stopped healing barely a couple of weeks after 5.1- whm was interesting for a little bit then I got bored of it and thus stopped healing. I didn't even switch to astro until I needed a dress for an eternal bonding.


Its easier to find a job that has been reworked from its old and usually preferred gameplay style than one that hasnt. There's pretty much only blm and samurai left that haven't undergone an overhaul and its certainly doubtful the former ever will being yoshida's pet.

Oh and yoshida is also the reason we dont have damage types visible without 3rd party tools.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Its easier to find a job that has been reworked from its old and usually preferred gameplay style than one that hasnt.

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I know that this is going to be an unpopular opinion around here, but classes are generally changed in response to feedback—in almost all cases, reverting them would just recreate the problems that changes were implemented to address.

I'm not saying that you or anyone on this forum wouldn't prefer some previous version of whatever class, but recognize that forum/Reddit opinions do not in any way reflect the majority of players. Similarly, class changes are often in response to much broader feedback and/or observation of game data.

"Things were better back in the day" is a very common refrain on MMO forums (look at WoW), but then you look at posts/surveys from back in the day, and you start to remember that things really weren't better.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

"Things were better back in the day" is a very common refrain on MMO forums (look at WoW), but then you look at posts/surveys from back in the day, and you start to remember that things really weren't better.

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I'm willing to be that several previous versions of the healer jobs were better designed than 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I'm willing to be that several previous versions of the healer jobs were better designed than 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

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Better in some ways, worse in others.
They seem to have largely traded one set of flaws for another.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

I know that this is going to be an unpopular opinion around here, but classes are generally changed in response to feedback—in almost all cases, reverting them would just recreate the problems that changes were implemented to address.

I'm not saying that you or anyone on this forum wouldn't prefer some previous version of whatever class, but recognize that forum/Reddit opinions do not in any way reflect the majority of players. Similarly, class changes are often in response to much broader feedback and/or observation of game data.

"Things were better back in the day" is a very common refrain on MMO forums (look at WoW), but then you look at posts/surveys from back in the day, and you start to remember that things really weren't better.

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Feedback is often from people who're not happy, people who were happy with how things were don't tend to make forum posts about it. Case in point, I've not been active on the healer forums until the healer issues got to a point where I felt the need to complain about them as there were no signs of improvement and instead a sharp turn in things getting worse. So prior to this I've given no feedback on healing what-so-ever and I never expected it to be changed for the worst.

Whilst I get "rose tinted glasses" can be a thing. What I do know is:
- I used to enjoy healing but I don't anymore except in niche cases
- I know what I enjoy about healing in this game
- I know what has changed about healing design that makes me no longer enjoy it
- I know what we used to have that made me enjoy healing more.
- I know that I didn't used to have 70% healing downtime and 1 or 2 buttons to spam for DPS, which let's face it, is dull.
- I know what I praised about my original healing job, SCH, and I know much of what I've praised is either gone or made redundant


I feel like the people who weren't happy before these changes could have been accommodated in a 4th healer job instead of making people who were already happy unhappy by screwing with existing ones.

There were flaws, especially in terms of balance. WHM was left in the dirt, SCH was OP. In ARR it wasn't the case, but in HW it was.

Balance is better, but it feels like a lot was sacrificed to achieve it. But my main feedback now, with SE emphasising the difference between "pure" and "shield" healers harder for 6.0, is it's something that really only worked in 2.0 I feel we need to look at what about it worked in 2.0 and how can that be adapted.



Balance I feel was mainly thrown out of whack by two things: SCH being made OP and the introduction of AST. And they designed AST to try and fit both niches because they couldn't create a third niche. Balance in 2.0 was good because it had only 2 healers that complemented each other and did so because of this pure/shield healer distinction. If they achieve that, I don't think it's so bad AST loses Noct Sect because I can see it as an opportunity for them to develop AST into its own unique space instead of trying to fill another's place...at the same time, my fear is that it turns into WHM with cards, which isn't worth the trade off.

I think SCH was made OP because of this myth that 2.0 SCH was weak, it felt and looked weak, but when played well it wasn't, this is because of the shield healing concept. They patched up its perceived weakness and suddenly playing it well meant SCH was too good. Speaking as somebody who used SCH to raid back in ARR.

So them taking this step in 6.0 feels logical when you look at it like that. If done well it means they only need to balance AST against WHM and SGE against SCH. If not well done, it means bigger problems.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Better in some ways, worse in others.
They seem to have largely traded one set of flaws for another.

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What is a flaw to one person or demographic can be a boon to another. In the end, the dev team wants to make the game as a whole enjoyable to the most amount of people possible. It's how they get subs.

Unlike, say, Bard, where the design seems to be a conceptual mistake on the design, the healers' changes seem mostly deliberate. For example, they simplified dps across the board and even removed energy drain... which was shortly walked back due to bad design. But then, it was recently nerfed. It really feels like whatever their goal is requires energy drain to be gone, but just removing it breaks other things. They said that this was a springboard for 6.0... so what does ED have to do with 6.0?

Honestly, I think all I really can do is continually remind them that enfranchised healers exist. We want to have fun whether in the ultimate encounter or doing the 1st expansion trial the 30th time. Unfortunately, I also feel like this game is becoming more and more a DPS game... in all sense of the word.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

I know that this is going to be an unpopular opinion around here, but classes are generally changed in response to feedback—in almost all cases, reverting them would just recreate the problems that changes were implemented to address.

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This is not necessarily the case. Often times the devs seem to overreact or remain incredibly stubborn. Bard and Monk are two shining examples of this, with the former having been unanimously the most popular DPS throughout Stormblood while the latter was heavily criticised. What happened? They completely gutted all nuance from Bard, making it a Ranger with songs. Meanwhile, they praised their apparent rework of Monk... except it literally kept every single aspect people's feedback said they hated. As of 5.4, Bard is among the least played DPS now and Monk went through a panic buff and a full tear down recently.

Dark Knight is another job people have routinely criticised, particularly Living Dead. Before it was Dark Arts spam, which resulted in them just deleting Dark Arts entirely and turning it into a uninspired Warrior clone while LD still remains the bane of tank invulns.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This is not necessarily the case. Often times the devs seem to overreact or remain incredibly stubborn. Bard and Monk are two shining examples of this, with the former having been unanimously the most popular DPS throughout Stormblood while the latter was heavily criticised. What happened? They completely gutted all nuance from Bard, making it a Ranger with songs. Meanwhile, they praised their apparent rework of Monk... except it literally keeping every single aspect people's feedback said they hated. As of 5.4, Bard is among the least played DPS now and Monk went through a panic buff and a full tear down recently.

Dark Knight is another job people have routinely criticised, particularly Living Dead. Before it was Dark Arts spam, which resulted in them just deleting Dark Arts entirely and turning it into a uninspired Warrior clone while LD still remains the bane of tank invulns.

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This is why I don't like some of the kinds of complaints people make, people who don't play certain jobs disliking how at its core plays complaining about it so that SE addresses it. I feel like the advantage of multiple jobs was to suit multiple playstyles and preferences. Like with DRK, I loved DRK when it was technical and had MP management, it was a part of the appeal, before HW I used to tank with WAR, if I wanted to stay with WAR, I'd have stayed playing WAR but I didn't because I liked the technical aspect of DRK and that interested me more. If people didn't like DRK from conception, then you had WAR instead.
If you didn't like SCH's DPS management or its shield focus, you had WHM instead. And I'm seeing another thread with a non-MNK player complaining that MNK has too many positionals, when it's one of the things that's appealing about MNK, when you have SAM, NIN or DRG who have fewer of them, it's better to play those. Why appeal to people who don't like the job from conception at the cost of those who love it at conception? If people are finding no job meets their needs and are complaining, then try to make something that appeals to them or to accommodate it in an existing design if it fits.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

This is why I don't like some of the kinds of complaints people make, people who don't play certain jobs disliking how at its core plays complaining about it so that SE addresses it. I feel like the advantage of multiple jobs was to suit multiple playstyles and preferences. Like with DRK, I loved DRK when it was technical and had MP management, it was a part of the appeal, before HW I used to tank with WAR, if I wanted to stay with WAR, I'd have stayed playing WAR but I didn't because I liked the technical aspect of DRK and that interested me more. If people didn't like DRK from conception, then you had WAR instead.
If you didn't like SCH's DPS management or its shield focus, you had WHM instead. And I'm seeing another thread with a non-MNK player complaining that MNK has too many positionals, when it's one of the things that's appealing about MNK, when you have SAM, NIN or DRG who have fewer of them, it's better to play those. Why appeal to people who don't like the job from conception at the cost of those who love it at conception? If people are finding no job meets their needs and are complaining, then try to make something that appeals to them or to accommodate it in an existing design if it fits.

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The problem is that people don't *only* play for the job design, but visual aesthetics, as well.

Also I never really heard of people wanting to have DRK me WAR lite; the major complaint in StB was that you pressed Dark Arts button way too much - MP management could have been kept, but it was the dev team that decided to solve the problem the way they did. Don't villify people for having an opinion on a job they want to play.

Maybe saying "I don't like people making these complaints" was a bit much, so I'll take that bit back as I ended on the note that Devs should either try to make a job that suits them or find a way to accommodate both if possible.

But I feel like if they've designed a job a certain way and it's not broken then that's the design philosophy they should stick with because they've given it it's identity. You're gonna get people who fall in love with it, sure, try to accommodate more people but don't trample on those who were already happy. They will struggle to please everybody and I think it makes more sense to be consistent. At least then people know what to expect. Taking the current healer position, we know for the pure/shield healer distinction to work we'd need to revive the old design philosophy where it worked, we don't know if they'll revert to that or continue with the new one we currently have which won't work for what they want to do or whether we get something new entirely to accommodate it.

When really we should have a consistent vision for what each job is and where they fit in the grand scheme of things. By not doing so, they're now in a position where it's about "who do you please?" At least with staying consistent with design you make the decision more easily, because you've already made the decision in design. And then see who you can accommodate on top of that.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

This is why I don't like some of the kinds of complaints people make, people who don't play certain jobs disliking how at its core plays complaining about it so that SE addresses it. I feel like the advantage of multiple jobs was to suit multiple playstyles and preferences. Like with DRK, I loved DRK when it was technical and had MP management, it was a part of the appeal, before HW I used to tank with WAR, if I wanted to stay with WAR, I'd have stayed playing WAR but I didn't because I liked the technical aspect of DRK and that interested me more. If people didn't like DRK from conception, then you had WAR instead.
If you didn't like SCH's DPS management or its shield focus, you had WHM instead. And I'm seeing another thread with a non-MNK player complaining that MNK has too many positionals, when it's one of the things that's appealing about MNK, when you have SAM, NIN or DRG who have fewer of them, it's better to play those. Why appeal to people who don't like the job from conception at the cost of those who love it at conception? If people are finding no job meets their needs and are complaining, then try to make something that appeals to them or to accommodate it in an existing design if it fits.

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It definitely feels like Shadowbringers' philosophy geared more towards trying to entice players who otherwise disliked/haven't tried job x before instead of enhancing aspects of that job for those who already enjoyed it. Which is a fool's errand because now those same players who once enjoyed the job are the ones complaining. I can appreciate wanting to expend each jobs' appeal, but it should never come at the expense of those who already enjoyed it unless the feedback is widely one-sided. Bowmage comes to mind where nearly everyone seemed to despise it, though there were some who actually liked having cast bars.

What it comes down to, and it may be something the dev team dislikes hearing, is you neither can nor should please everyone. Some players simply won't like job x. So... let them play something else. Yes, they'll complain because they want "Ranger". I'm sorry, but... too bad. That isn't how Bard operates, or at least how it didn't. You mention DRK, which has always been a sore spot for me since I adored HW Dark Knight. Instead of telling people who insisted it was "too hard" to simply play PLD or WAR, they've continued to dumb it down into the uninspired husk it is now.

I really hope the sheer amount of vitriol they've received over healers, how poorly received Monk was and how Bard has all but crashed and burn will make them rethink this design philosophy going forward.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

It definitely feels like Shadowbringers' philosophy geared more towards trying to entice players who otherwise disliked/haven't tried job x before instead of enhancing aspects of that job for those who already enjoyed it. Which is a fool's errand because now those same players who once enjoyed the job are the ones complaining. I can appreciate wanting to expend each jobs' appeal, but it should never come at the expense of those who already enjoyed it unless the feedback is widely one-sided. Bowmage comes to mind where nearly everyone seemed to despise it, though there were some who actually liked having cast bars.

What it comes down to, and it may be something the dev team dislikes hearing, is you neither can nor should please everyone. Some players simply won't like job x. So... let them play something else. Yes, they'll complain because they want "Ranger". I'm sorry, but... too bad. That isn't how Bard operates, or at least how it didn't. You mention DRK, which has always been a sore spot for me since I adored HW Dark Knight. Instead of telling people who insisted it was "too hard" to simply play PLD or WAR, they've continued to dumb it down into the uninspired husk it is now.

I really hope the sheer amount of vitriol they've received over healers, how poorly received Monk was and how Bard has all but crashed and burn will make them rethink this design philosophy going forward.

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I know one person who preferred bowmage, but all other BRD's I know hated it, but then one of those Bards still hates BRD and misses 2.0 BRD. I'm somebody who always hated BRD design but it's the SB and ShB version I enjoy playing. Buuuut my ranged DPS choice is DNC but I totally get why old school BRD's don't like it, heck, I've never asked or expected any BRD design to accommodate what I like, so if they rework BRD again and I hate it, c'est la vie, but I hope people who main it like it, as long as they don't step on MCH's toes of course, I play with 2 MCH's and they're finally happy, don't make them sad again. But mess with my DNC, then I'll write my strongly worded forum posts. :P

With MNK and healers, I hope they do something about it. I play with a MNK and have been using mine lately but, yeah, it needs addressing. And obviously healers I've talked about ad infinitum here. They fix MNK and healers and not break anything else for Endwalker, I think nobody I run content with will complain about their preferred jobs, it'd be a first since ARR. Fortunately, we know both are on their radar...well, I say fortunately...I've not forgotten what YoshiP said at the ShB media tour about MNK...

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

It definitely feels like Shadowbringers' philosophy geared more towards trying to entice players who otherwise disliked/haven't tried job x before instead of enhancing aspects of that job for those who already enjoyed it. Which is a fool's errand because now those same players who once enjoyed the job are the ones complaining. I can appreciate wanting to expend each jobs' appeal, but it should never come at the expense of those who already enjoyed it unless the feedback is widely one-sided. Bowmage comes to mind where nearly everyone seemed to despise it, though there were some who actually liked having cast bars.

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It was sadly predictable the path would lead to this. I knew everything would get simplified once they removed "niche" utility skills rather than improve its benefits and designing content to utilize said skills more frequently. Its the old adage of "lets make our unique concept appeal to others by copying someone else" but failing to see the irony. Bowmage could have worked if Gauss Barrel wasn't so ugly and didn't fit on the gun models (should have just been a silencer imo). It was also not rewarding to play. If you are going to give up mobility you need to increase a jobs damage to necessitate it, i.e. BLM, but even in ShB BLM is pretty mobile so maybe its a design philosophy that's dying.

I hope that they shift back towards the idea of a job's "lacking" features can be compensated by another. However, they seem pretty adamant on that old adage I stated earlier. I just hope AST cards don't get nerfed even farther but I wouldn't even be surprised if they removed the damage dealt and replaced it with critical hit rate all for the sake of "balance". They did it with WAR so why not AST.

soon it be like sch/ sch ast/ast gg lol if all shields gone as ast dirunal regens cant stack with each other.noct regens will work with dirunal regens as dirunal shields will work with noct. Though its not a meta but 2 ast is so godly since then then there can be 7 regen 4 shields total if both use the co/ci/cu neutral stuff at once as they all stack, only cards dont.Think this over SE. Also please can anyone tell me why 2 ast would not be the best comp for alot of things since they can stack up on everything but cards, with their amazing weaving mobility?

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

soon it be like sch/ sch ast/ast gg lol if all shields gone as ast dirunal regens cant stack with each other.noct regens will work with dirunal regens as dirunal shields will work with noct. Though its not a meta but 2 ast is so godly since then then there can be 7 regen 4 shields total if both use the co/ci/cu neutral stuff at once as they all stack, only cards dont.Think this over SE. Also please can anyone tell me why 2 ast would not be the best comp for alot of things since they can stack up on everything but cards, with their amazing weaving mobility?

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LB generation penalties and SCH is genuinely a better healer than a Noct AST in every respect that would matter to a Diurnal AST. SCH is the only one of the three healers that genuinely functions as a good cohealer. Mostly due to flexibility and free passive healing. Despite it being broken historically it’s still designed around supplementing another healer with a large toolbox of cooldowns. I wish SE hadn’t buffed its DPS the way they did for that reason.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

LB generation penalties and SCH is genuinely a better healer than a Noct AST in every respect that would matter to a Diurnal AST. SCH is the only one of the three healers that genuinely functions as a good cohealer. Mostly due to flexibility and free passive healing. Despite it being broken historically it’s still designed around supplementing another healer with a large toolbox of cooldowns. I wish SE hadn’t buffed its DPS the way they did for that reason.

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oh understood about the LB part never knew that same jobs makes lb regen slower thanks for that info truely but... the whole sch shield/better than noct not true, cata is only single target and happens only 15% chance while ast can noct field+ noct celestial for 250% entire party immediately. sch need to hope on cat and then have to spread it, ET has a horrible long cd while CO only has 60 second cd, only time aspected benefic noct loses to alqo is if the cata happens because alco has a 300 pot but if it do not crit even aspected benefic slighty win with its already set 250% migi. succor use to win aspected helios via the cata spread tatic but since CO became a shield that even ET shield is losing also the thing that netrual sect boast heals of ast by 20% too. in 60+ content ast is winning naturally on migi as all sch has is succor unless they do a algo and it cata to spread it, then the 80 skill fairy they got , ofc she wont be available at that time to sch strict lvl 80 which maybe they want to probably have seraph at a lower lvl and give sch a new 80 spell. think what would still make succor/alco win noct field/aspected noct is if the sch use that illuminate and disspiate spell which then grants em a 30% heal boost which idk if they do that or not, tried that healer but its just not my cup of tea vs whm/ast itself. I credit those who play it it however I will even throw noct under the bus this rare time because dirunal shields via netrual sect/ci using aspected benfic=450% single migi vs noct field + co for 350% via aspect benefic. Since most say overall regens are better and I acknowledge it, from what I see too most heavy content tends to be whm/ast whether dirunal or noct vs ast/sch whm/sch. Also yes while not the meta indeed cause the slow lb thing dirunal shields and noct ones stack up nicely compared to a sch shield stacking with a dirunal or noct ast shield(ofc field and gal dont since they do not work with each other). SCH won indeed on migi in stormblood but to me barely is on sbh when they gave co shield and added CI for dirunal whos shield too was 250% but they nerf it to 200 % to make up for that sloppy mess 100pot only heal they had put on ast heals e.e

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

the whole sch shield/better than noct not true

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

LB generation penalties and SCH is genuinely a better healer than a Noct AST in every respect that would matter to a Diurnal AST.

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Scholar's healing capability is more than a potency-measuring contest between two GCD shields. Shielding is a niche capability in FFXIV. Your off-GCD heals are what make or break your class most of the time, not the size of your bubbles. Scholar is a better healer than Noct AST because it's better at supporting and enabling its cohealer to squeeze more out of their kit.