Shadowbringers starting to feel like a budget expansion

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That's if SQEX continues with the whole project. I'm not too sure how many people are going to want to continue to purchase the next installments since the end of this one turned FF7 into kingdom hearts with time travel BS and basically unhooked the current game's timeline from what the original was supposed to be.

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While the plot is surely controversial to some, I've seen no indication that this game is doing poorly, nor any indication that they're going to can the remaining installments.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

While the plot is surely controversial to some, I've seen no indication that this game is doing poorly, nor any indication that they're going to can the remaining installments.

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Which is why i posed the question at the end and then say that only time will tell(that you didn't bother quoting); and yes, it is doing well because (right now) many people are buying the "Final Fantasy 7 Remake" because that's that they think it is, a remake. Once they play the game, they will know it is NOT a remake, but rather a kingdom hearts'esque sequel that seeks to change the story that they thought was being remade; And only on the second game will we know how people actually feel about the bait and switch.

The point was that, right now, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that whatever resources were diverted from this game to FF7R (if any) are going to be brought back any time soon.

I didn't quote the rest of your post because it didn't matter. Part 2 is already in development, ergo work on FF7R is continuing, regardless of however the more vocal/disgruntled people might feel about part 1, or whatever the projected future sales of part 2 end up being.

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many people are buying the "Final Fantasy 7 Remake" because that's that they think it is, a remake. Once they play the game, they will know it is NOT a remake, but rather a kingdom hearts'esque sequel that seeks to change the story that they thought was being remade;

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The name isn't inaccurate, just misleading. The "remake" in the title refers to the original events being altered/"remade", not that it's just a prettier rehash of the same game/events we've played already.

Frankly, I think it was quite clever of them. It certainly subverted expectations if nothing else, and I never gave much of a crap about the original FF7 anyway.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

The point was that, right now, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that whatever resources were diverted from this game to FF7R (if any) are going to be brought back any time soon.

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Really depends on how you define ressources. Developers? Hard to tell. Money? Of course, that's how companies work. A chunk of the earnings from FF14 goes into feeding other projects. There isn't anything inherently wrong with that, and I def don't think that's why we got gendered races or anything.
Now the fact we're getting reskinned and rehashed assets over and over, moreso than we have in the past. The fact we don't have any extra asserts for things that were expected (primal/savage weapons, etc. etc.). Is definitely going to raise some eyebrows. Especially when SE communicates to us that FF14 is doing better than ever.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

The point was that, right now, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that whatever resources were diverted from this game to FF7R (if any) are going to be brought back any time soon.

I didn't quote the rest of your post because it didn't matter. Part 2 is already in development, ergo work on FF7R is continuing, regardless of however the more vocal/disgruntled people might feel about part 1, or whatever the projected future sales of part 2 end up being.

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Sure, it doesn't matter to quote the entirety of something if you're going to be dishonest.
The point wasn't that SQEX was going to stop production of FF7: (not a) Remake part 2, but how the audience will react to part 2 and if they will support it as they were supporting what they thought part 1 was going to be.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

The name isn't inaccurate, just misleading. The "remake" in the title refers to the original events being altered/"remade", not that it's just a prettier rehash of the same game/events we've played already.
Frankly, I think it was quite clever of them. It certainly subverted expectations if nothing else, and I never gave much of a crap about the original FF7 anyway.

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Actually, it is inaccurate; in fact, as what the term remake actually means, its almost an outright lie.
A remake is a production of a film, television series, video game, or similar form of entertainment that is based upon an earlier production. A remake tells the same story as the original but uses a different cast of actors and may alter the theme or target audience.
This is not what the FF7 Remake is. The game makes fundamental plot changes, which creates an entirely new story because of those plot changes. At best, this could be called a reboot; but it's more accurately called a sequel.

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Sure, it doesn't matter to quote the entirety of something if you're going to be dishonest.
The point wasn't that SQEX was going to stop production of FF7: (not a) Remake part 2, but how the audience will react to part 2 and if they will support it as they were supporting what they thought part 1 was going to be.

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The very first thing you said in response to me:
"That's if SQEX continues with the whole project."

As in, directly insinuating that they might not continue production with FF7R. Which I've already addressed (they are).

So yes, that very much was "the point". Who's being dishonest here, again?

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Actually, it is inaccurate; in fact, as what the term remake actually means, its almost an outright lie.
A remake is a production of a film, television series, video game, or similar form of entertainment that is based upon an earlier production. A remake tells the same story as the original but uses a different cast of actors and may alter the theme or target audience.
This is not what the FF7 Remake is. The game makes fundamental plot changes, which creates an entirely new story because of those plot changes. At best, this could be called a reboot; but it's more accurately called a sequel.

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I can tell wordplay also isn't your strong suit.

In any case, your definition of remake is only one possible definition of it, and although that might have been the one nearly everyone was expecting, SE (or any developer of any form of media) by no means had to play along with it. There are supposed to be "fundamental plot changes" and a new story because that's the whole damn point; the events we knew from the previous game are being literally remade. It was a very intentional naming choice.

It's perfectly fine to say that they misled their audience, or that you didn't like the changes. A whole bunch of people are getting angry on the internet about it. But it still doesn't make the name they used inaccurate or otherwise incorrect. Just because they did not use "remake" in the way you were expecting does not mean that they used the word wrong. Did you get upset at The Neverending Story because it did, in fact, have an ending?

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

It's their polite form of f... off, game is perfect, take your criticism and go play another MMO, because talking about negative side of game is taboo

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This is so beyond wrong. When people start to approach the "burn out" point, small issues, and issues you would normally not voice concerns about, start taking on a much larger presence in your view of the game. This goes for any hobby, actually. Telling someone it's OK to take a break is not telling them to "F off". It's polite advice. Sometimes people need to take a break from one hobby so they can take a step back and see the issues they have aren't as big as they appear.

Also, this mentality that the community abhors criticism (worse, labeling it as "negative side of the game"), really isn't as pervasive as you're making it out to be. Of the minority that hold this mentality, they're a fraction of the vocal minority. They hardly exist.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

This is so beyond wrong. When people start to approach the "burn out" point, small issues, and issues you would normally not voice concerns about, start taking on a much larger presence in your view of the game. This goes for any hobby, actually. Telling someone it's OK to take a break is not telling them to "F off". It's polite advice. Sometimes people need to take a break from one hobby so they can take a step back and see the issues they have aren't as big as they appear.

Also, this mentality that the community abhors criticism (worse, labeling it as "negative side of the game"), really isn't as pervasive as you're making it out to be. Of the minority that hold this mentality, they're a fraction of the vocal minority. They hardly exist.

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It's actually INCREDIBLY pervasive. I'm pretty much always passively in the Novice Network watching people chat, and virtually anytime a sprout criticizes something about the game they're literally told to unsub from the game, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the MSQ.

The moderators of the subreddit for this game are also notorious for intentionally suppressing critical discussion of the game.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

It's actually INCREDIBLY pervasive. I'm pretty much always passively in the Novice Network watching people chat, and virtually anytime a sprout criticizes something about the game they're literally told to unsub from the game, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the MSQ.

The moderators of the subreddit for this game are also notorious for intentionally suppressing critical discussion of the game.

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imo, when you have to justify content and say why this is good enough, it means the content isnt good enough, I cant understand why so many ppl try to justify things like 1 dungeon or genderlocked races so hard when SE is a massive company who dosent care about much else than money, it isnt like they're an indie dev small company tryign to make a footprint on the gaming landscape

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Originally Posted by zeylos

imo, when you have to justify content and say why this is good enough, it means the content isnt good enough, I cant understand why so many ppl try to justify things like 1 dungeon or genderlocked races so hard when SE is a massive company who dosent care about much else than money, it isnt like they're an indie dev small company tryign to make a footprint on the gaming landscape

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Just because someone explains to you why they think the content was good or why they enjoyed it doesn't equate to the content being good enough. That's completely incoherent logic. If you can't understand something, the problem likely lies with you. There's no "gender locked" races because there wasn't a plan for the opposite gender. I'm tired of that long dead and beaten horse. Get over it. You didn't get what you were never promised. You have LITERALLY zero reason to have expected it, considering the leaks, past interviews, and all other evidence laid out on the table. As for dungeons, what if they have content they're working on that more than makes up for the dungeon issue? You wouldn't know because none of us are privy to that information. SE is a large company, but their funding has to go across several teams, not just XIV. It's like people forget they make other games. That they don't work on JUST Final Fantasy XIV. Much of their funding in recent years has likely been pushed towards Kingdom Hearts III, Final Fantasy VII Remake, and other projects. Stop this stupid "small indie company" argument or meme that you think is clever. It's not. Square Enix is a business, and in the end they will be run like a business. Businesses need money to survive so you can bet that's the first interest. All else is secondary. If you don't like the way it's going, then stop supporting them and consider a different game.

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Originally Posted by Arngrim_Greyashe

Just because someone explains to you why they think the content was good or why they enjoyed it doesn't equate to the content being good enough. That's completely incoherent logic. If you can't understand something, the problem likely lies with you. There's no "gender locked" races because there wasn't a plan for the opposite gender. I'm tired of that long dead and beaten horse. Get over it. You didn't get what you were never promised. You have LITERALLY zero reason to have expected it, considering the leaks, past interviews, and all other evidence laid out on the table. As for dungeons, what if they have content they're working on that more than makes up for the dungeon issue? You wouldn't know because none of us are privy to that information. SE is a large company, but their funding has to go across several teams, not just XIV. It's like people forget they make other games. That they don't work on JUST Final Fantasy XIV. Much of their funding in recent years has likely been pushed towards Kingdom Hearts III, Final Fantasy VII Remake, and other projects. Stop this stupid "small indie company" argument or meme that you think is clever. It's not. Square Enix is a business, and in the end they will be run like a business. Businesses need money to survive so you can bet that's the first interest. All else is secondary. If you don't like the way it's going, then stop supporting them and consider a different game.

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For someone throwing around the phrase "coherent logic", what you've written after is a bit jarring.

To break down your post:

• Gender lock is fine, because they said it will be gender locked.
  
• Lack of content is not a problem, because they could be working on something big even now! We don't know! We might get something interesting and lasting in 3 months, 1 year after ShB release!
  
• They are a company, they divert funds to other games, so its totally fine if we get the minimum valid amount reinvestment.
  
• If we have issues, we shouldn't complain, feedback is useless, if we want to influence the games direction, we should just unsub.

Sad thing is, that last one might just be true.

From the viewpoint of a relatively new player here, it sure looks like a massive circus here.

While it is very obvious that this thread has valid criticism and points from both sides of the playerbase, but the way everyone here acts is basically just a fight between "Virgin Shill" and "Chad Critic", there's quite an amount of such insults being thrown around as if nobody can converse in a civilized manner without being branded to be on the one side or the other, there's nothing wrong if you enjoy the current state of the game and nothing wrong if you feel like the game requires improvement.

In my opinion, Shadowbringers has been a great expansion and it honestly got me really hooked on FFXIV, I don't see it as a bad expansion compared to others. It's still early in it's life-cycle and there is definitely more than what you can currently see is where my expectations are currently at. I believe the way they decided to go with the Resistance relics is a step in a good direction compared to Eureka. I think it's healthier for newer players like myself to have a simple start at first, then the grind later which seems to be the way it will go. I saw that some posts say that Varis EX fight is down-right easy, but to this day the group I'm in still can't get through it. Do note that for you it may be easier but end-game content isn't exactly only tailored to long-time players and what might be easy for you, will be much harder for other people. I have my own disappointments with how Viera were handled, but if there are issues that are lying under the patches and decisions for why something couldn't have been met, doesn't mean that it's like this by design, the Devs are not out to get you or me or anyone else for that matter just out of spite. There's nothing wrong with trying out a new approach to certains things and that's what I feel most of you people are complaining about.

To me, it seems like all of you are currently thinking from the viewpoint of a long-time player, but I think you may need to view it from the viewpoint of a new player. I don't believe most of the new players that go into FFXIV really enjoy looking at the relic gear in ARR and HW and see all these steps and grind you have to take just to get a really good looking weapon. I don't believe most people like to look at Eureka and see that you have to painfully grind your way to get what you want off the bat. Although this is mainly my opinion of how I feel as a new player.

TL;DR: There is no "Virgin Shill" and "Chad Critic" side, if you are satisfied with the current state of the game, good on you, if you're not, you're always welcome and should feel encouraged to post criticism on whichever platform of your choice that is constructive and not an attack on the people behind the development of the game or the people playing it.

The entire game has become a budget mmorpg in terms of quality, but par for the course in terms of milking it to the max. Every mmorpg worth its salt that lasts long enough ends up doing this. You get less for your money while having to pay the same for it. At this point FFXIV is in the "too big to fail" so let's just coast phase. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy it all the same but SE knows this playerbase will keep throwing money at it, no matter how half assed they continue it.

I let my sub run out today and it's because of what has been stated in this thread and lack of a "battle mage" type job. No there isn't one in the game currently in my eyes. I had a feeling Shadowbringers would be light on "midcore" after limited blu was announced but I was convinced to come back and that Yoshi P was only really taking feedback on blu after the lvl 60 update. So I gave it a shot and enjoyed the expac for awhile but the problem (imo) of there being no really compelling content to do between raids and casual stuff was even more apparent this expac. Normally working on relics solves this issue to a degree but this patch was quite disappointing. Yes I know that Yoshi P said that the following steps will have more to do but he also said it would be a more casual process than in ARR and the other expacs.

It honestly feels like we got 1/3 of two different races. Hopefully this gets fixed in 6.0

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

The forums exists as an official and more reliable way for the dev team to receive feedback of the game. We are a small majority of the playerbase but our opinions here have power to change the course of the game. Word of mouth just like what you said in "From what I've heard" is very unreliable as feedback, because you're pretty much talking for someone else.

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I think you're overestimating the "power level" of the forum. Having an official forum for fans to gather and discuss the game isn't necessarily an invitation for those fans to be the only ones whose opinions will be listened to - or that SE will have to do whatever the forum posters want if they repeat it enough.

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

I just wonder, what if people stop complaining about lack of content comparing to previous expansion on forums, like white knights want and just go directly into media, making reviews, video on YouTube, talking about it on Twitter. This way more people who don't even visit forums will see, that not everything is sunshines and rainbows in this game and it has some problems.This will hit popularity and reputation of the game alot more, than just sharing concerns on the forum.
Maybe this will be more efficient way talking with SE directly, not to the people who don't even want to play the game they paying for, but rather go to the forum trying to explain that less dungeons are better for everyone.

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Am I understanding right that your plan to "improve" the game is to:

1. Complain about it on social media to damage its reputation and subscription numbers

2. Wait for Square Enix to fix the problems that the game is now known for having, while receiving less money

3. Hope that the damage previously done on social media can be undone - by SE spending more money promoting the improvements?

Were you planning to give them positive press at the end of this process or do you move onto the next thing you're not happy with, further grinding the game's "popularity and reputation" into the dirt in the name of allegedly making it better?

I'm not happy about the reduced number of dungeons either, but that sounds like an utterly counterproductive way of responding to it.

Also, ultimately, the overall number of dungeons is still going up. You say you've got multiple alts covering different classes - I do that, and it feels like there is never enough time to raise them all. I don't personally need more new content at this rate because I'm still bringing at least five characters through old content. I certainly don't need a relic grind to fill my game time, because I don't seem to have enough as it is.

Call me a white knight if you want. But the game as it is is highly enjoyable to me, even if it could be improved, and this relentless "what we have isn't good enough" is tiring. It could always be better somehow, and people are allowed to enjoy the game as it is.

And on being told to go do something else if you don't enjoy the game... I don't see the problem with saying that. Different games appeal to different people, so find one that you enjoy playing rather than sticking around one that you don't like, hoping that they'll change it to suit your preferences. There have been plenty of games I tried and then dropped because I didn't enjoy them.

It's really unfair to put in character races into this since their addition is likely the root cause of this feeling like a budget expansion. I don't think a lot of you guys know how much work is required to create a new playable race. The creation of a new playable race is something that actually alters the entire development pipeline as a WHOLE since they would have to recreate almost all existing character assets to make it work with the new playable character models AND they would now have to create even more character assets for every future updates. Rather than putting work into dungeons and raids, they now have to spend more resources in the recreation of old assets and the creation of new ones for all races. The creation of new races is something that encompasses the development of past, present, and future expansions.

The only solution I could think of to this is Square Enix hiring even more employees but that can also put to question the quality of work that will be put in future updates. It's also something that can potentially alter the team chemistry that was already established.

If they want to deliver a new race while AT THE SAME TIME releasing other content such as dungeons and raids then they're going to have to compromise on both ends and it's what we got in the end: incomplete races and less dungeons. I'm actually surprised that Yoshi-P decided to make this compromise just to please the fans who have been asking for these races.

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Originally Posted by Mizaye

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I'm a veteran player. Been playing 14 almost nonstop since beta launch of 2.0.

My biggest problem with the game is it doesn't have moderately challenging content; just easy and hardcore.

Because of this the game suffers greatly from the development team dumbing down job classes and content in order to appease the newer and casual crowd of players that show up with each expansion and wind up further alienating the mid and hard core players as a result.

And when hardcore players get their challenging EX and Ultimate content, the new/casual and midcore players tend to feel left out.

There needs to be a middle ground for midcore players to enjoy and for something both new/casual and hardcore players to also enjoy with each other without butting heads with one another because the content is either too easy or too hard.

That's why, even though I know 14's development team will never think or try it (because the game has survived for this long without it), they need to put midcore content in the game to help balance the scales between easy and hard content so the playerbase as a whole can feel more satisfied with their product.

Apologies if my explaination isn't the best. I tend not to be the best when it comes to explaining things though I hope this give you and anybody else an idea of what's hindering this game so badly. ^^;

I guess I agree with the topic, I do feel Shadowbringers' content cycle wears off far quicker than my experience of Heavensward and Stormblood. But then, I played for roughly 4 years, so I'm forced to recognize the game has kept me busy for a long time and I can't really expect it to keep me fully in. Now I don't really have fun logging in daily, I just have my raid time three times a week and I'm good. But I guess there are new players who are currently enjoying what I enjoyed back then when I found so much content to be done, so it's fine for the overall state of the game.

I don't really mind less dungeons, even unfinished races honestly because I'm there for gameplay before anything, personally. But I do feel something's off in ShB in that respect too. I do think most jobs I play are not as interesting as they used to be. I do feel raids and trials are weirdly unbalanced towards the easy side. To the point where what I would enjoy has been significantly reduced (E8S is the most fun I've had on the game since 5.0, but any other savage / extreme has been lackluster for me). I'm quite annoyed seeing them continue putting cutscenes within fights to make them synthetically longer.

Now I won't deny 5.X has the best looking MSQ, dungeons, trials, raids. Everything is pretty, polished and all. But I just have that weird persistant feeling that most of the work seems to go on the appearance side, and then the gameplay is negatively impacted. That solo instance on the Relic questline is very pretty yeah... but I'll never do it again so why bother in the first place? The arrival in Anamnesis was cool the first time, and the second time it fell back in the same formula.
I don't think we are asking too much when we suggest a bit of change here and there.

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Originally Posted by AlliciaCapulet

Sadly, I totally agree with OP. I feels like this game will die at this rate, I've been playing since arr, and on arr, HW and SB I was playing this game from few to lots of hours every weeks... Now... I do the content at the release of a patch, then wait 1-2 month to get new things, repeat. I'm even considering stopping my sub/retainers, I still pay for 10 retainers...

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So we are clear: You are whining that we get content every 1 to 2 months because you rush things? 1 to 2 months?! No MMO gives you new content ever 2 months lol.

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Originally Posted by Nhisso

So we are clear: You are whining that we get content every 1 to 2 months because you rush things? 1 to 2 months?! No MMO gives you new content ever 2 months lol.

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Most MMOs usually release longer lasting content. Let's not kid ourselves, you don't have to "rush" any content released since ShB came out to get most rewards in more than a week.

Firnament and Diadem populatiry plummeted as soon as people got their rewards and levels in two weeks. I have 7 relic weapons just from casually doing daily roulettes. Today, I figured, what the hell, lets do a crafting tool. 2 hours from end to finish, no macros, no market board, starting out at 200 yellow scrips, crappy scrip gear.

If you are caught up in stuff to do, and live off of the update content, then yes, the last few months have been rather anemic in longevity.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Most MMOs usually release longer lasting content. Let's not kid ourselves, you don't have to "rush" any content released since ShB came out to get most rewards in more than a week.

Firnament and Diadem populatiry plummeted as soon as people got their rewards and levels in two weeks. I have 7 relic weapons just from casually doing daily roulettes. Today, I figured, what the hell, lets do a crafting tool. 2 hours from end to finish, no macros, no market board, starting out at 200 yellow scips, crappy scrip gear.

If you are caught up in stuff to do, and live off of the update content, then yes, the last few months have been rather anemic in longevity.

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Then unsub until more content is released? Which seems like will be quite a while with what's going on.

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Originally Posted by DBriggs304

Then unsub until more content is released? Which seems like will be quite a while with what's going on.

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Already did actually. Just waiting it to run out. My point is, if thats the intended way to play an MMO, then its not very good at MMOing.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Already did actually. Just waiting it to run out. My point is, if thats the intended way to play an MMO, then its not very good at MMOing.

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Then it's no longer a problem and happy gaming. Some say there's not enough. Others say they have plenty to do. Varies by the player and there's nothing we can do but wait and see.

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Originally Posted by DBriggs304

Then it's no longer a problem and happy gaming. Some say there's not enough. Others say they have plenty to do. Varies by the player and there's nothing we can do but wait and see.

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I like the game, and I would prefer to keep playing it as I have since 2.2. I've unsubbed, because the game isn't providing me with a satisfying time-sink, which to me is a major flaw in an MMO.

I still have twenty-something days left, I might as well provide some feedback in the meantime. Who knows, maybe the right people see it, and change the trend for the better for when I re-sub. Naive, I know.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Am I understanding right that your plan to "improve" the game is to:

1. Complain about it on social media to damage its reputation and subscription numbers

2. Wait for Square Enix to fix the problems that the game is now known for having, while receiving less money

3. Hope that the damage previously done on social media can be undone - by SE spending more money promoting the improvements?

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If I didnt care about the game I wouldn't even post here and just move to play something else, like most people do. It was more message to white knights, that maybe we're discussing problems on forum is better idea than doing exactly same outside, damaging reputation of the game.
It's good that you still enjoying almost everything that game gives you, but not everyone should have same mind as you, so it would be nice to have topics like these, without every 3 posts trying to force opinion that everything is perfect. If you want somehow support good sides that you like, better just go and create a new topic where you could discuss what you like with same minded people.
Telling people to unsub is not going to help company anyhow, it's more like creating safespace where you couldn't see or hear any negative thing about thing you love.
And yes, people are not telling SE to catch a stars from the sky, they want at least same amount of content they had before, because content in this game is very short living and its not very healthy for an MMORPG.

It's worth noting that certain posters have developed a strong habit of policing not only the tone used by their fellow posters but the content of posts as well. This is despite the fact that in the majority of cases even the negative posters are not breaching any of the established forum rules.

Players need to stop forgiving everything, no FFXIV is not a bad game, but a lot of things done by SE is simply put ... not up to what we expect or hope for.

Stop being a "everything is perfect, the game was never better then this" person and at least have a legit view on the current situation. No one here is saying the game is bad or dieing, but we are on a path of getting less, its the first bit of the path but we are defiantly on it.

Everything story related it great and thats what most players see, but the game is more ... also keep in mind there is more then just a few types of players that all have a right to their content.

Grinders: Who just want to be busy doing something to progress towards a big goal. Like Relics, commendations, Mentor points
Crafters: Who want to be challenged and not hit a macro, who want to be proud and say "i made that"
Gatherers: Who want to farm some items and provide for crafters, or even themselves.
Story players: Who want SE to build more lore and interact with the main gang
Raiders: Who need constant high challenge and interact with their statics
No Stress players: Who do their Dungeons but stay away from raids (even normal ones) and extremes.

And theres so many more, and while we currently get a decent amount of gathering and crafting stuff, the players who have only combat classes are kind of shafted.

Im not sure they realise how important the Deep Dungeon is for the game by now, a lot of ppl use it for leveling or go with statics ... or solo it to push their own skill to the limit.
Kicking that out the door is a massive hit.

The new Trial doesn't have a HM ... does it need one? Well i don't need it since i farm it on Ex ... but theres loads of players who will not face the stress of Ex trials. So their kinda locked out.
Also why did we use the Dungeon boss Theme for the Boss? This game has some of the most bad ass tracks, but this is so out of place.

The FC Company ranks are simply leaving me scratching my head, an additional 22 ranks ... but the rewards (yes i know their not final from 20-30 and we hopefully see more) are beyond insulting. The last time we touched the FC stuff was in HW, so like 4-5 years ago. So there was hope we get something new not a bandaid. Also ... 6 more inactive action slots? Who came up with that ...

We have to question SE because if we don't ... nothing will change. Also the "well then quit" players ... please look at the facts ... players that "complain" here want the game to continue and not crash, if we did not care or would not want to play ... we would not bother writing here.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

I'm a veteran player. Been playing 14 almost nonstop since beta launch of 2.0.

My biggest problem with the game is it doesn't have moderately challenging content; just easy and hardcore.

Because of this the game suffers greatly from the development team dumbing down job classes and content in order to appease the newer and casual crowd of players that show up with each expansion and wind up further alienating the mid and hard core players as a result.

And when hardcore players get their challenging EX and Ultimate content, the new/casual and midcore players tend to feel left out.

There needs to be a middle ground for midcore players to enjoy and for something both new/casual and hardcore players to also enjoy with each other without butting heads with one another because the content is either too easy or too hard.

That's why, even though I know 14's development team will never think or try it (because the game has survived for this long without it), they need to put midcore content in the game to help balance the scales between easy and hard content so the playerbase as a whole can feel more satisfied with their product.

Apologies if my explaination isn't the best. I tend not to be the best when it comes to explaining things though I hope this give you and anybody else an idea of what's hindering this game so badly. ^^;

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I wonder, has anyone ever completed high end content via duty finder? The High End section on Duty Finder is nicely done imo but it's useless right now cause no way you make meaningful progression with current difficulty of those instances.

Would be really nice if they released actual moderately challenging content that could make good use of that High End Duty Finder section.

(Btw talking about section that allows you to choose if you want to train or complete the instance and which phase or queue with who completed before)

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Thats your attempt at Irony? Yikes...Need to work on it a little.
Nah, Id rather do 1 better if not Slightly better "Simplistic Dungeon" instead of 2 Mediocre Dungeons that get pushed out because people think we need 2 and cant be happy with 1. If dungeon running is all you care about, then thats you man, run them till your hearts content.

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So basically you're saying that you would rather play less than more, because nothing changed in dungeon design and we just get one instead of two.
Well, you can't argue with someone who dont want to play PVE content, back to square one.
Yikes indeed, red nosed fella.

At this point I am just waiting for their next MMO, in all honesty. Yes, XIV is still fun, but there's so many things they can't do due to legacy system limitations that it's become depressing, and the game is starting to feel and look dated. I mostly just play for the story these days and even that can be vexing in how you have no real ability to make meaningful choices in the story and are just following a script, which in turn also limits what jobs they're able to implement, because some, like Necromancer, would not be "compatible" with the lore for the protagonist.

I can understand why people complain about the amount of combat content, because between 5.2 and 5.4, i.e. the next patch with raids, there will potentially be more than 8 months. That's a long content drought, particularly if your interest in the relic is very limited. The alliance raids and ex modes are also very quick to clear, so they're not lasting content by any stretch of the imagination.

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Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

Players need to stop forgiving everything, no FFXIV is not a bad game, but a lot of things done by SE is simply put ... not up to what we expect or hope for.

Stop being a "everything is perfect, the game was never better then this" person and at least have a legit view on the current situation. No one here is saying the game is bad or dieing, but we are on a path of getting less, its the first bit of the path but we are defiantly on it.

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Most people do have 'legit views' on the current situation. The general consensus is "This xpac is great and they did a lot of things right." This doesnt mean it's perfect, or SE has done no wrong, or that there isnt room for improvement. It means that people are satisfied with it. Very few people are saying "It's Perfect, change nothing". I have to ask why you think that this is not a 'legit view'. Hell, even if people think its perfect, how is that not a 'legit view'. Just because you dont like their perspective regarding the content doesnt make it any less valid a point of view.

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Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

Everything story related it great and thats what most players see, but the game is more ... also keep in mind there is more then just a few types of players that all have a right to their content.

Grinders: Who just want to be busy doing something to progress towards a big goal. Like Relics, commendations, Mentor points
Crafters: Who want to be challenged and not hit a macro, who want to be proud and say "i made that"
Gatherers: Who want to farm some items and provide for crafters, or even themselves.
Story players: Who want SE to build more lore and interact with the main gang
Raiders: Who need constant high challenge and interact with their statics
No Stress players: Who do their Dungeons but stay away from raids (even normal ones) and extremes.

And theres so many more, and while we currently get a decent amount of gathering and crafting stuff, the players who have only combat classes are kind of shafted.

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Where was this sentiment when crafters/gatherers were getting shafted in previous xpacs? Is it now a problem cause there's more focus on crafting/gathering and less on the combat role side of it? Bringing this up as a problem when to the best of my knowledge the DoH/DoL didnt get nearly as much content as combat roles in previous xpacs but now theyre getting more seems kind of one sided.

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Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

Im not sure they realise how important the Deep Dungeon is for the game by now, a lot of ppl use it for leveling or go with statics ... or solo it to push their own skill to the limit. Kicking that out the door is a massive hit.

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How many people have reached floor 200 on PotD, let alone 100 of HoH? If you are lvling, PotD is still there, so is HoH. If you havent done floor 200, plenty of challenge left in that. Would I like a new one? Sure. Would love it. But Im not dying if I dont get one.

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Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

The new Trial doesn't have a HM ... does it need one? Well i don't need it since i farm it on Ex ... but theres loads of players who will not face the stress of Ex trials. So their kinda locked out.

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This has been discussed a bit in another thread so Ill be brief - If you dont want to engage with content, then dont expect the rewards from that content. EX isnt nearly as bad as people think. The trouble with dropping the skill floor over the last xpac has resulted in this situation where people think that EX is top tier content when its not. Particularly this ex. It's no where near as punishing as people make it out to be, and it requires you to recognize only a small handful of mechanics with some filler variations. Anyone can do this content - that's somethign I firmly believe. If you can beat e8, you can beat this EX.

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Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

Also why did we use the Dungeon boss Theme for the Boss? This game has some of the most bad ass tracks, but this is so out of place.

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I just chalked this up as a subtle tell to players that this EX isnt some unique great fight like other EX modes. Pretty sure it doesnt have a mount either. It's a mid tier fight.

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Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

We have to question SE because if we don't ... nothing will change. Also the "well then quit" players ... please look at the facts ... players that "complain" here want the game to continue and not crash, if we did not care or would not want to play ... we would not bother writing here.

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There is nothing with questioning things, but typically that's not what were seeing. It's been a lot more of observation, followed by extreme negative Point of view and the complete rejection of any counter point.

Example: We've been getting less content than ever before, therefore its because SE is just pocketing the money and fleecing us! It must be this!

The problem with the "less content" position is that it is fairly subjective and open to some level of interpretation. At its most 'factual' core, teh only two bits we've lost thus far are Deep Dungeon and 1 Less regular dungeon per patch, but weve gotten a heavier load on content in regards to DoH and DoL, and the quality of fights and story has been better/more engaging than previous xpacs. It's also hard to 100% judge since were only half way through hte xpac, so there's room for more which we havent been made privy too. Then theres a final consideration. They cut back content because they might be addressing issues that have already been voiced. Such as how terrible customization is for Hrothgar or Viera, and MAYBE (and its a big maybe so dont hold your breath at all) a Female/Male varient of the aforementioned races.

Going back to the bigger point, it all boils down to that judging whether were getting less content or not is only gonna be fully measurable when we're sitting on patch 5.45 and FFXIV:Were going to the Moon is gonna be released within a few months. Saying you want more or particular content is fine, just dont resort to the very easy position of "Were getting shafted." which I am seeing a lot of when talking about 'less content' and the 'problems with SE.' Cause frankly, if we dont get a Deepdungeon and 1 less dungeon per major patch but we get newer more interesting content, or they fix Hrothgar and viera by making them fully realized races and (Im crossing fingers, but not gonna hold my breath) we get the off sexes, Ill be plenty personally fine with the trade. Ill start opening my criticisms about how good or bad this xpac has been once weve been given the complete picture. Until then, It seems a bit pointless to get worked up about 'missing content' when we dont have half the xpac currently.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I wonder, has anyone ever completed high end content via duty finder? The High End section on Duty Finder is nicely done imo but it's useless right now cause no way you make meaningful progression with current difficulty of those instances.

Would be really nice if they released actual moderately challenging content that could make good use of that High End Duty Finder section.

(Btw talking about section that allows you to choose if you want to train or complete the instance and which phase or queue with who completed before)

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High-end duty finder is used primarily in Japan as opposed to Party Finder. But there's an expected level of play on that side of the community that isn't present in the rest of it. (And also many, many silent blacklists to enforce it.) It's not an example of a useless feature so much as an example of a design disconnect between the needs of the Japanese player population and the rest of us.

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Ill start opening my criticisms about how good or bad this xpac has been once weve been given the complete picture.

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What exists now is the first YEAR's worth of content.

If you dont have a solid, defensible position of your feelings towards it, I dunno what to say, but you've had plenty of time.

You can also compare it directly to 3.26 and 4.25 content.

Its not in a good place compared to those outside its original MSQ quality, and unless theyve had a team working on some massive groundbreaking 5.35 or 5.4 release they havent even hinted at, we more or less know whats coming in the next year, and whats not .

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Originally Posted by Soge01

And when hardcore players get their challenging EX and Ultimate content, the new/casual and midcore players tend to feel left out.

There needs to be a middle ground for midcore players to enjoy and for something both new/casual and hardcore players to also enjoy with each other without butting heads with one another because the content is either too easy or too hard.

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This is why I feel nobody actually knows what midcore is. EX primals are no where near hardcore.
When it comes to midcore, people just like to think the content they can do without dying a bunch of times is midcore. But the problem is, some people would call THAT said content too easy/casual and some would call it hardcore if they suck at it.

Like I think ex primals are kinda easy but not to the point its hardcore content. I would consider EX primals midcore, but some would call it hardcore because they can't do it. Some people even call savage midcore but a large part of the NA and EU player base don't bother with it because its too hard.

Nobody can agree what's midcore because if something is too hard and out of their reach they automatically call it hardcore.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

What exists now is the first YEAR's worth of content.

If you dont have a solid, defensible position of your feelings towards it, I dunno what to say, but you've had plenty of time.

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Yeah, 1 year of content with them saying "Hey were cutting back on stuff" and havent exactly told us the reasoning behind this at this time, leaving lots of room for speculation. Speculation is fine and dandy, but it's not a good way to decide the merit of something.

This is like saying "You know, Ive only watched half this movie, therefore I can judge how complete or worthwhile it is by only watching half." Which is a stupid position to take considering that the ending of a movie can really make or break things. There are plenty of movies in which the movie is going fine, get to the end and it ruins the movie, and conversely, the catch at the end of hte movie makes the entire thing so much better.

The point Im making is that it's fine to have thoughts on what we've been given currently. But there's a pernicious thought process that were somehow being jipped content unfairly because no deep dungeon and 1 less dungeon per major patch, with the complete disregard for quality of content or potential reasons for certain content being scaled back. I dunno, but it seems to make more sense for me to be like "Hmm Ill judge whether this xpac is ultimately bad or good when I can see the whole picture, and not before."

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Originally Posted by Barraind

You can also compare it directly to 3.26 and 4.25 content.

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You could, but how many people are doing this? This is not a reasoning or comparison people are putting forward, or if they have, theyre typically not evaluating quality but jsut raw goodies and even then don't get that right.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

Its not in a good place compared to those outside its original MSQ quality, and unless theyve had a team working on some massive groundbreaking 5.35 or 5.4 release they havent even hinted at, we more or less know whats coming in the next year, and whats not .

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Not in a good place? How so? By what metric are you measuring? Cause here's what Ive been seeing:

No deep dungeon - (Past complaints about deep dungeons: theyre too same-y, grindy, and uninteresting filler content. Or that theyll kill other content like fates and regular dungeon queues cause no one will queue for content and just do deep dungeons. BTW, how many people actually completed F200 of POTD or have the Horse Mount from HoH?)
Were only getting 1 dungeon instead of 2 - (Having 2 of something doesnt mean better. Two piles of dirt isnt worth as much as 1 pile of gold. Quality of Dungeons as a whole needs to be measured)
HrothGar/Viera are a mess customization wise. Only thing I can agree with and this was a failure on the devs part. And hey, it's possible theyre cutting back other content to fix this fiasco.
No Diadem/Eureka - Good god. Does no one remember how much people complained about Anemos before the train become a thing? Or how bad Pagos was? How Eureka, like Diadem, was trash content no one liked and time wouldve been better spent on other content? How grindy and brain dead it was? How some people compared Eureka to Diadem and said Diadem was better?

What else are we saying is not in a good place? An EX mode that has no normal because we did the normal in a quest? Really huge problem when that EX mode is for an artifact weapon and is not as hard as people play it out to be. But fine, maybe they should spend a day or two just to implement that fight so you can play it and get....I dunno, 5 allegory from it. In any case, That fight is really about memorization of what skills do what. Know the 3 Gunshields, what the red and Green X do, and dodge AoEs. Thats about the gist of it mechanically outside of repeat mechanics people should be well familiar with (stack markers).

I dont see any huge complaints with the Nier raid. Heck, giving us dyable raid gear out the gate has had people being happy.

Savage? It's harder than last tier, but not in a foolishly bad way. It punishes you for mistakes that are more mechanically driven.

Crafting Gathering? We've been given more content for that than previously with them reworking things a bit. Dont see to much in the way of complaining about that.

So...where we lacking? What has been lacking that you have big issue with outside the 3 main ones that get brought up? I mean Ill help you out. I think class play isnt as good. I prefer how DRK played in SB and HW. It's very boring to play now. But thats my personal opinion and is highly subjective as many have stated their preference for it's current iteration compared to older iterations.

How can you, or anyone, know if were ultimately being jipped content when we havent seen the entirety of the xpac? As I said, I wouldnt be one bit upset if we didnt get a DD or a few less dungeons overall if they were to give us off sexes of hrothgar/viera, or atleast completely fix those two races. So why should I pass judgement (and damning judgement no less) and start raising hell when I dont have a full picture? And tell you what. If it turns out they cut content and we didnt see any tangible reasoning why, Ill jump right on board with the opinion were being shafted.

People should wait at the end of ShB before judging the game. We are like in 5.25. There still like 3 patches to go. Then after that you can say it budget expansion or not.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

People should wait at the end of ShB before judging the game. We are like in 5.25. There still like 3 patches to go. Then after that you can say it budget expansion or not.

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I'm pretty much in the same boat here. I always knew the game was gradually getting less content ever since Heavensward and hoped they made up for it for some other way in the future. Somehow they've kept me staying so far. Shadowbringers on the other hand it is honestly becoming too apparent.

I'm honestly just hoping it's the ARR rework that is eating up a lot of their resources right now because reworking an entire base game's MSQ and content wouldn't be easy and cheap, and after 5.3 I just hope they just impress us.

Other than the MSQ, other story quest and the DoL/DoH focused content, this expansion was underwhelming in a lot of areas.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I think you're overestimating the "power level" of the forum. Having an official forum for fans to gather and discuss the game isn't necessarily an invitation for those fans to be the only ones whose opinions will be listened to - or that SE will have to do whatever the forum posters want if they repeat it enough.

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Okay, I'm not even saying this is the only place they'd get feedback from, but it would be the most reliable and most convenient for being all in one place they monitor. They can look through places like Reddit or from reviews etc. for feedback which I don't doubt, but I suspect a large part of what they listen to is from the forums, or at least one of them.

Who else would they check for feedback? The apparently silent majority of the playerbase? There's literally no point in that if they won't say anything.

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Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

Players need to stop forgiving everything, no FFXIV is not a bad game, but a lot of things done by SE is simply put ... not up to what we expect or hope for.

Stop being a "everything is perfect, the game was never better then this" person and at least have a legit view on the current situation. No one here is saying the game is bad or dieing, but we are on a path of getting less, its the first bit of the path but we are defiantly on it.

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And for the love of Hydaelyn: If players aren't happy with the way they game is currently, it's not on them to come up with solutions.

It's perfectly fine and rational to say "I don't like X part of the game". I may or may not be able to explain why, but I'm not a game designer and I don't have to come up with a solution to fix it.

Why? Because even if I did, SE has their own processes and very rarely listen to the player base unless backed into a corner.