Ranged DPS role is about to be excluded from all content

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Originally Posted by Endariel

Are we talking about the positionals which monk can ignore half of the time? Or any other mdps uses for 2 gcds?

Or magic DPS who have options for movements.

It's not like any fight requires you to move 24/7.

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It still involves more engagement than range spamming abilities, and eden 4 wants to have a word with you. xD

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

It still involves more engagement than range spamming abilities, and eden 4 wants to have a word with you. xD

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There's a difference between taxing the range slightly for their free mobility and said tax being over 1,000 rDPS. Right now, the disparity is so high, melee DPS can straight up die and still out-pace any job besides Black Mage. So what, exactly, are the Range, Red Mage and Summoner being rewarded with here?

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

There's a difference between taxing the range slightly for their free mobility and said tax being over 1,000 rDPS. Right now, the disparity is so high, melee DPS can straight up die and still out-pace any job besides Black Mage. So what, exactly, are the Range, Red Mage and Summoner being rewarded with here?

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You are going to wait for 5.1 because this will be the patch with slight range dps buff.
All you really need is 5-6% dps buff making it 200-500 dps difference.

People are still pushing the "melee is hard" meme? There's no reason for melee to ever have to leave melee range given how every fight has strats designed to maximize uptime. Complaining about melee being hard is essentially saying "waahh i can't plant my feet and stand around smashing away at a training dummy, this is too hard." Every single caster is more difficult than any melee job and phys ranged are expected to balance performing their rotation and being the designated mechanics bitch. Meanwhile everyone bends over backwards to make sure the melee keep their precious uptime. Claiming melee DESERVE to do ungodly amounts of damage is pretty ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

People are still pushing the "melee is hard" meme? There's no reason for melee to ever have to leave melee range given how every fight has strats designed to maximize uptime. Complaining about melee being hard is essentially saying "waahh i can't plant my feet and stand around smashing away at a training dummy, this is too hard." Every single caster is more difficult than any melee job and phys ranged are expected to balance performing their rotation and being the designated mechanics bitch. Meanwhile everyone bends over backwards to make sure the melee keep their precious uptime. Claiming melee DESERVE to do ungodly amounts of damage is pretty ridiculous.

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It's true that there really isn't any inherent difficulty in playing a melee compared to other jobs, but having melee in your comp does introduce difficulty to an encounter. The difficulty just isn't on a personal level, it's a party wide difficulty that imposes a constraint on developing strategies for clearing content. You have to develop strategies that factor in Melee uptime (as you must also consider the Casters' relative immobility into those strategies), or your party wide damage is going to go down the drain.

It's inherently a cost benefit relationship. You lose flexibility in the strategies you're able to develop for an encounter, you gain damage for doing so.

However, the damage potential that the ranged jobs lack because they don't inherently impose positioning or movement constraints on the party to work around for strategies is currently much to wide. It should be in the 400-500 range, not in 1k range like it currently is.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

It still involves more engagement than range spamming abilities, and eden 4 wants to have a word with you. xD

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That's debatable though, I don't get what's so big brain about wasding to a boss' rear and then to their flank and back to their rear.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

That's debatable though, I don't get what's so big brain about wasding to a boss' rear and then to their flank and back to their rear.

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How about when the bosses rear is about to explode, in a zone that nobody else is in so your share-damage-or-die mechanic will kill you on bad timing, judging whether or not your GCD will roll in time to make the movement worthwhile, and whether or not you can make it back to safety to make the extra bit of potency for the bonus not result in dying?

Nothing in a vacuum is big brained.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

How about when the bosses rear is about to explode

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The boss could probably use more fiber in their diet.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

People are still pushing the "melee is hard" meme? There's no reason for melee to ever have to leave melee range given how every fight has strats designed to maximize uptime. Complaining about melee being hard is essentially saying "waahh i can't plant my feet and stand around smashing away at a training dummy, this is too hard." Every single caster is more difficult than any melee job and phys ranged are expected to balance performing their rotation and being the designated mechanics bitch. Meanwhile everyone bends over backwards to make sure the melee keep their precious uptime. Claiming melee DESERVE to do ungodly amounts of damage is pretty ridiculous.

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What about those melee job players who have not perfected all the runs 0 to 100% knowing every single boss spell, skill, aoe, its dimensions and mechanic hmmm?
The ceiling for melees is higher so the damage is higher, thats about it.
Not everyone is playing savage in static with over 80% percentile performing people if i could mind you.
There are mistakes, there is a rng element in melee gameplay like it or not.
Just look at the "normal" mode for eden and see the differences there are a lot smaller than in savage.

Make melee doing same damage as ranged and there will be no point to play them, why so if they could go range and just ignore doing positionals and etc.

Considering how scripted boss fights are mobility really doesn't mean anything, the "mobility tax" is silly

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

That's debatable though, I don't get what's so big brain about wasding to a boss' rear and then to their flank and back to their rear.

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You really dont know do you? Try to maintain uptime during very first evil earth in e4. You can, but its tight af.

Try to avoid losing a single gcd while managing crumbling down and the flares.

Try having that debate because a healer who had the blue marker is standing in the square the still has melee uptime while you have to just sit there and stare cause they werent considerate or risk blowing both of you up.

Try having to avoid the bombs but stay a little closer and risk your toes if the tank doesnt move fast enough.

Try not being able to hit while the car mechanic goes off and having to debate whether breaking your combo or not is worth it for the ranged hit.

Try thinking about how your whole rotatiom gets altered for the fight when missing any of the above,

My point? You are broadly underestimating the extreme amount of micro decisions melee constantly have to make.

Ive said it before. Ranged does need to be buffed. But man if you think melee and them should be even.....

I play dnc too. Now i know dnc is maybe the easiest ranged class, i get that.
But when i play dnc my life is so incredibly stress free compared to playing Nin or Mnk. Like such that i can easlily maintain a constant movement while flitting about the whole field.


Try doing all of the above while having to think about perfect uptiming positionals as well


Ive posted this kinda thing before. But summing up range advantage as just "mobility" is a gross understatement.

Honestly some melee even have near cast times via immobilities.

If range want the same dps as melee they need positionals AND a minimum range (ie they have to be outside of melee range to cast gcd) then the mechanics that force them inside that range will be similar in nature to the mechanics that force melee outside of range.

You could reduce kinda this requirement for somr large non positional bosses as well cause of some conflicts (titan maximum for example) leviathin would still need this tho as there is never outside of tsunami a moment where they couldnt be outside of melee range. You could bring the maximum range in closer to the center at some periods for big bosses.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Make melee doing same damage as ranged and there will be no point to play them, why so if they could go range and just ignore doing positionals and etc.

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a 95% ninja missing every single positional (edit:aside from trick attack, a 1 minute cooldown attack you may aswell pair with true north if you are so unsure you will be able to hit it) would lose out on ~330 dps, a dragoon about 450~ (took the first 95% levi parse i managed to grab so every positional was a hit in that parse and than mathed out what they would lose if instead of every positional hit they would have missed them, won't do the same for monk or sam because of bootshine and resource generation making that a lot more complex but more mathematically inclined people are free to do the math themselves)

So thats missing every single positional. considering "front of boss=death do to cleaves" the boss effectively got two sides so hitting positionals completly at random should still give you about 50%~ of positionals hit so without even trying, completly hitting the boss at random a 95% nin would lose ~165 dps, a dragoon ~225, pray tell why these cases, where people would not even have to actively try to do it correctly should be compensated in the range of 500-600 dps

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Ohohoho that is SOOOOOO incorrect. A 95% nin missing every positional would include missing every trick. So no
Nin missing every positional would be out 2400 dps.

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fair enough, i did miss trick attack completly in my calculation, not just the debuff but even the attack itself, mind you i didn't take you for the passive agressive sort, i'm only human and i may very well make a mistake if i skim trough data, but guess what ? trick attack has a minute cooldown, use true north before every trick attack and we are back at square one, even you will have to admit that THAT would not take skill

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

You really dont know do you? Try to maintain uptime during very first evil earth in e4. You can, but its tight af.

Try to avoid losing a single gcd while managing crumbling down and the flares.

Try having that debate because a healer who had the blue marker is standing in the square the still has melee uptime while you have to just sit there and stare cause they werent considerate or risk blowing both of you up.

Try having to avoid the bombs but stay a little closer and risk your toes if the tank doesnt move fast enough.

Try not being able to hit while the car mechanic goes off and having to debate whether breaking your combo or not is worth it for the ranged hit.

Try thinking about how your whole rotatiom gets altered for the fight when missing any of the above,

My point? You are broadly underestimating the extreme amount of micro decisions melee constantly have to make.

Ive said it before. Ranged does need to be buffed. But man if you think melee and them should be even.....

I play dnc too. Now i know dnc is maybe the easiest ranged class, i get that.
But when i play dnc my life is so incredibly stress free compared to playing Nin or Mnk. Like such that i can easlily maintain a constant movement while flitting about the whole field.


Try doing all of the above while having to think about perfect uptiming positionals as well


Ive posted this kinda thing before. But summing up range advantage as just "mobility" is a gross understatement.

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There's no denying that mechanics are easier for *physical* ranged and that's why they are asked to take on mechanics, but literally all of that is equally or more difficult for casters as it is for melee. The benefit of being ranged is nullified by the drawback of having to take on more mechanics when necessary. Casters are often asked to do the same, while still having to adjust more than phys ranged or arguably even more than melee, and yet nobody is saying RDM should do more DPS than ninja - In fact they say the opposite, that ninja should be superior simply on the basis of being melee.

Ultimately, all the roles are difficult in different ways, the idea that one role should inherently be more powerful than another is dumb.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

a 95% ninja missing every single positional would lose out on ~330 dps, a dragoon about 450~ (took the first 95% levi parse i managed to grab so every positional was a hit in that parse and than mathed out what they would lose if instead of every positional hit they would have missed them, won't do the same for monk or sam because of bootshine and resource generation making that a lot more complex but more mathematically inclined people are free to do the math themselves)

So thats missing every single positional. considering "front of boss=death do to cleaves" the boss effectively got two sides so hitting positionals completly at random should still give you about 50%~ of positionals hit so without even trying, completly hitting the boss at random a 95% nin would lose ~165 dps, a dragoon ~225, pray tell why these cases, where people would not even have to actively try to do it correctly should be compensated in the range of 500-600 dps

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Ohohoho that is SOOOOOO incorrect. A 95% nin missing every positional would include missing every trick. So no
Nin missing every positional would be out 2400 dps.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

There's no denying that mechanics are easier for *physical* ranged and that's why they are asked to take on mechanics, but literally all of that is equally or more difficult for casters as it is for melee. The benefit of being ranged is nullified by the drawback of having to take on more mechanics when necessary. Casters are often asked to do the same, while still having to adjust more than phys ranged or arguably even more than melee, and yet nobody is saying RDM should do more DPS than ninja - In fact they say the opposite, that ninja should be superior simply on the basis of being melee.

Ultimately, all the roles are difficult in different ways, the idea that one role should inherently be more powerful than another is dumb.

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The amount of mechanics ranged are "asked" to take doesnt come even close to balancing out the difficulty melee and casters have in comparison.

And also this whole caster tougher than melee nonsense you are spouting is just that: nonsense.

Its entirely debatable which of the two is more difficult and absolutely more class specific regardless.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

The amount of mechanics ranged are "asked" to take doesnt come even close to balancing out the difficulty melee and casters have in comparison.

And also this whole caster tougher than melee nonsense you are spouting is just that: nonsense.

Its entirely debatable which of the two is more difficult and absolutely more class specific regardless.

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So close, and yet so far. If you think saying that caster is more difficult than melee is "nonsense," then you're literally right there. All you have to do is reach out and grasp it and you will finally understand the point I was making.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

The amount of mechanics ranged are "asked" to take doesnt come even close to balancing out the difficulty melee and casters have in comparison.

And also this whole caster tougher than melee nonsense you are spouting is just that: nonsense.

Its entirely debatable which of the two is more difficult and absolutely more class specific regardless.

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It's just as easy to say that melee's in every tier since Midas are just as easy to play as any job seeing as half of them have essentially been dummy fights that allow for near 100% uptime, and the deeper we get into the game the more tools melee's get to make it easier to mitigate those losses. Everything you are spouting is no less nonsensical then anything anyone else is spouting. Speaking as someone who has played every role in savage, their isn't a single one that has any easier time of it then the others, and the few times they do it is fight dependent. No one wants to be a caster player in Titan, no one wants to play melee in Halicarnassus, no one wants to be ranged during Omega.

Half the reason right now that we have such a massive disparity in DPS is because the current raid tier is SIGNIFICANTLY slanted in the favor of melee DPS and turret like DPS with Black Mage, and the "mobility and Rez" taxes equal out to too much because their is no mechanics that force the mobile classes to do what no other job can. The other half is balance. Yes their is a shit one or two moments in eden and titan that can feel a bit rough for a melee, but outside of that, this current tier is a melee paradise. Trying to say any different is just being ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

a 95% ninja missing every single positional (edit:aside from trick attack, a 1 minute cooldown attack you may aswell pair with true north if you are so unsure you will be able to hit it) would lose out on ~330 dps, a dragoon about 450~ (took the first 95% levi parse i managed to grab so every positional was a hit in that parse and than mathed out what they would lose if instead of every positional hit they would have missed them, won't do the same for monk or sam because of bootshine and resource generation making that a lot more complex but more mathematically inclined people are free to do the math themselves)

So thats missing every single positional. considering "front of boss=death do to cleaves" the boss effectively got two sides so hitting positionals completly at random should still give you about 50%~ of positionals hit so without even trying, completly hitting the boss at random a 95% nin would lose ~165 dps, a dragoon ~225, pray tell why these cases, where people would not even have to actively try to do it correctly should be compensated in the range of 500-600 dps

Edit: fair enough, i did miss trick attack completly in my calculation, not just the debuff but even the attack itself, mind you i didn't take you for the passive agressive sort, i'm only human and i may very well make a mistake if i skim trough data, but guess what ? trick attack has a minute cooldown, use true north before every trick attack and we are back at square one, even you will have to admit that THAT would not take skill

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Sorry i shouldn't have been so passive aggressive there.
And true north definitely helps a lot with it, don't get me wrong. Also NIN seldom has moments where he has to hit two positional in different spots in a row. Which is where the difficulty of MNK (pre earth reply) came from when pursuing the double true rotation.
I actually really don't think the difficulty of melee comes from positionals for anyone except monk. It primarily stems from the melee distance and forced disconnects by other players errors or the raid itself, and trying to maintain that distance while doing already tightly timed mechanic movements.

I was just irked cause ignoring trick is really really big as a positional loss. And a lot of times you try to save true norths for moments you know you will be forced to miss a positional, (IE you use both charges for other things, because you don't expect to need it later and you are trying to optimize) so when a tank accidentally spins the boss or puts it out of position it can be frustrating, because some trick alignments have a mudra quad weave, and mug/bunshin weave before hand , OR just a Full TCJ (which also means standing absolutely still for 5-7 seconds) meaning you needed to know to use true norths about 6 seconds in advance. thus the window for being prepared for such mistakes is closed because of weave timing. You can double weave true north and then trick and true north will effect trick, but this loses you dps because trick takes a moment to apply and so the following gcd (often our most powerful gcd shadowfang) misses trick because of it.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

So close, and yet so far. If you think saying that caster is more difficult than melee is "nonsense," then you're literally right there. All you have to do is reach out and grasp it and you will finally understand the point I was making.

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So close, and yet so far. if you only actually made your obtuse points yourself, then real conversation could occur.

It is entirely opinion that caster OR melee is more difficult than the other. There are too many things impossible to compare.
Ranged on the other hand is directly comparable because it doesn't have EITHER of the functions that bring difficulty to the other two roles.

Any difficulty given to ranged can be attributed only to two things: The classes RNG procs (which some casters and melee have too btw)
Or the mechanics it is forced to handle
WHICH BTW is an exterior source of difficulty. IE the class itself is LESS difficult and it is the CONTENT that demands or puts some measure of difficulty into playing the class. THUS RANGED PHYS is as a CLASS less difficult.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

It's just as easy to say that melee's in every tier since Midas are just as easy to play as any job seeing as half of them have essentially been dummy fights that allow for near 100% uptime, and the deeper we get into the game the more tools melee's get to make it easier to mitigate those losses. Everything you are spouting is no less nonsensical then anything anyone else is spouting. Speaking as someone who has played every role in savage, their isn't a single one that has any easier time of it then the others, and the few times they do it is fight dependent. No one wants to be a caster player in Titan, no one wants to play melee in Halicarnassus, no one wants to be ranged during Omega.

Half the reason right now that we have such a massive disparity in DPS is because the current raid tier is SIGNIFICANTLY slanted in the favor of melee DPS and turret like DPS with Black Mage, and the "mobility and Rez" taxes equal out to too much because their is no mechanics that force the mobile classes to do what no other job can. The other half is balance. Yes their is a shit one or two moments in eden and titan that can feel a bit rough for a melee, but outside of that, this current tier is a melee paradise. Trying to say any different is just being ignorant.

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A lot of what you say is correct. it is very fight dependent. BUT it is not ignorant to say such things. Ignorant is downplaying, being un-aware of, or outright ignoring, things that directly contribute to difficulty in an attempt to make one side of an argument seem more correct. Why do people always have to throw around assumptions about people's understanding or lack thereof? can you not just argue your points? My post is not ignorant. It literally concludes with a statement noting that it is not actually possible to reach a conclusion about Caster being more difficult than Melee or Vise Versa.

Even in E2 melee have a harder time by a distinct measure dodging the floating heads. And Casters have to move for their floating heads.
My point is: even in dummy fights there are small things that make melee, or caster, more difficult than ranged and can be clearly seen. Maintaining uptime during quietus cycle phases for example is a absolute chokehold nightmare to do perfectly.

So no, you can't say they are just as easy, cause even in those fights that are much more melee friendly we still frequently have to deal with tighter placements.

And before this goes too far Let me again say: I want to see the ranged buffed so they are only between 100-400 less dps than the weakest of the melee. I just disagree with the blatant misrepresentation of difficulty people attribute to the ranged Phys class. Melee and casters are more difficult to optimize fight specifically. this is pretty much a truth tho not an objective fact.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

So close, and yet so far. if you only actually made your obtuse points yourself, then real conversation could occur.

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I did lmao. If you actually read my posts then you would know that. Trying to compare them and declare one more "difficult" than the other is BS from the getgo.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

It is entirely opinion that caster OR melee is more difficult than the other. There are too many things impossible to compare.
Ranged on the other hand is directly comparable because it doesn't have EITHER of the functions that bring difficulty to the other two roles.[/QUOTE[

Any difficulty given to ranged can be attributed only to two things: The classes RNG procs (which some casters and melee have too btw)
Or the mechanics it is forced to handle

WHICH BTW is an exterior source of difficulty. IE the class itself is LESS difficult and it is the CONTENT that demands or puts some measure of difficulty into playing the class. THUS RANGED PHYS is as a CLASS less difficult.

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This entire section of your post is nonsensical and hypocritical. You don't get just to decide "This difficulty matters, but this difficulty does not." That's a joke and makes you look like a joke of a person who is only interested in downplaying phys ranged for whatever reason.

As a matter of fact, there is no universe in which being forced to adapt and react to a proc-based rotation is somehow simpler than a melee where your entire rotation is set strictly in stone and all you have to do is attribute it to muscle memory and perform it around the few mechanics you have to consider while playing. This is like saying playing Paladin is more difficult than Red Mage, which frankly is completely wrong. I can join up to a savage party on PLD at 4AM half-asleep and just go through the motions of my static rotation alongside the mechanics I have memorized and there is no adjustment, thinking, or anything else that would make it more complicated than doing the same savage fight as a red mage. Optimizing a proc-based job is, by definition, more difficult than any job with a rotation that is 90% static or more.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

snip.

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Oh wow! So many opinions stated as fact! hyperbolic fact even!
perhaps you should go back and re-read my post before you keep proving you have terrible reading comprehension. (or terrible ability to extend subject matter into the sphere of what was being said, please consider BLM and MNK)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

How about when the bosses rear is about to explode, in a zone that nobody else is in so your share-damage-or-die mechanic will kill you on bad timing, judging whether or not your GCD will roll in time to make the movement worthwhile, and whether or not you can make it back to safety to make the extra bit of potency for the bonus not result in dying?

Nothing in a vacuum is big brained.

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There's this skill called true north, I suggest using it

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

There's this skill called true north, I suggest using it

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Oh, that thing Ranged don't need?

Neat.

Having an ability to deal with a bad situation doesn't trump not having to deal with it at all, as it still presents the opportunity for error ("Difficulty").

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Originally Posted by Darsien

Snip

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Thank you for this. We needed this for sure.

I do realize (don't worry) some of your criticism is pointed at me.

However I would like to make a few opinion statements, while matching my credentials against yours. Please note these are opinion statements.

I have played NIN in Stormblood and Shadowbringers. He was my Main
I also played MNK in ARR and BRD, and SAM during Stormblood (on a different character)
I did not play any classes beyond sigmascape in Stormblood as I took a break from the game then.
The only Melee I have not played at Max lvl currently is DRG.
Currently in Shadowbringers I have also played DNC and MNK in at least one of the trials and through E2 each.

My least experience is most certainly with Casters however I have played with BLM a little on a friends account (just against a training dummy dont worry I wouldnt ToS ruin myself by playing another account i didnt own in any actual content) with the friend present. Additionally I indirectly know a lot of this friends difficulty as I have poured over videos of content to attempt to help him optimize because I am the leader of our static.
Casters are innately very tough to manage. because the choice of what spell to cast and when has a lot of micro-decisions involved in it such as knowing if it will enable a non-clip weave further down the line + immobility etc.

I PERSONALLY feel that my main NIN is by far the most difficult class. However I would say learning to Caster other than RDM right now is very very hard and I would put it on a similar lvl as a MNK without earth's reply.
SAM your professed melee job is I.M.O. the easiest of melee jobs, but I haven't played dragoon so i cant say for sure. But I can definitely say my feeling learning the classes was that SAMs optimizations and basics were exceedingly easy to learn and perform compared to perfecting NIN or MNK. (which lets be honest I haven't perfected either yet, but I do lurk alot EVERYWHERE on the balance discord so I know what perfections looks like)

My experience with bard was that it was fun with a few annoying things, but pretty much just free to do whatever it wanted in stormblood. And my experience with DNC is that its the absolute dang easiest thing to play in the game ever. Optimizing takes some skill yes, you have to learn to hold certain procs and feathers for optimization windows, but it really isnt very stressful even at that. In extremes and savages playing DNC was like a cool breeze on a beach compared to the hell scorn that NIN deals with.
And lets talk about proc based difficulty.
Unlike the melee and Caster exclusive difficulties; other classes also have proc based events that impact their class. BLM thunder procs? MNK chakras?

So I havent played MCH, or BRD specifically in shadowbringers. But i do have some experience. And my experience has taught me that ranged is far easier to play in so many ways than caster OR melee. I couldn't outright say melee is harder than caster cause SAM and possibly DRG are pretty easy. But I can outright say NIN is harder than BLM at the very least for me, at that DNC is the easiest thing I've ever touched, at the very least for me.

My final point: some of us do absolutely have experience with multiple roles. And it is true, making sweeping statements about a role is absolutely unfactual since variation in role is vast (SMN->RDM, MCH->DNC, NIN->DRG/SAM). But we can still state what we feel. It has long been my feeling that the difficulties all melee deal with, and the difficulties all Casters deal with, are distinctly harder to manage in real time than the not even unique random procs that ranged deals with.

AND I can tell you right now. If dancer was capable of doing as much per percentile dmg as NINja. I wouldn't be playing NIN right now because my static would force me into a DNC role. Why? because as a team dealing with two melees is far more difficult than one melee one caster two phys ranged, AND id probably more easily out DPS my NIN by far because playing dancer literally takes half the brainpower playing NIN does at current. So If DNC was as Strong as NIN (both high dps utility classes) I know for a fact I would be ostracized and called a burden by my static for choosing to play NIN. even tho Im a pretty dang good NIN. When SHB released I was parsing 75th Up on NIN. But no one cared because they knew I could do better as even a 10th percentile MNK. So I played Monk. Thus ranged really need a buff right now cause the drastic difference in damage is causing that same thing to occur, but it most certainly shouldnt be equal to melee or Caster DPS, at least in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Oh, that thing Ranged don't need?

Neat.

Having an ability to deal with a bad situation doesn't trump not having to deal with it at all, as it still presents the opportunity for error ("Difficulty").

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Oh noooo, I chose to play a melee class and to land hits I have to stay in melee range and hit positionals just to do damage, oh nooo... If only there was some indication that was part of the job like if it was in the name.

You seem like the kind of person who goes into the self checkout lane at Wal-Mart because the line is shorter and then complains there's no cashier to scan and bag your items. Can't you go be stupid on some other thread?

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Oh noooo, I chose to play a melee class and to land hits I have to stay in melee range and hit positionals just to do damage, oh nooo... If only there was some indication that was part of the job like if it was in the name.

You seem like the kind of person who goes into the self checkout lane at Wal-Mart because the line is shorter and then complains there's no cashier to scan and bag your items. Can't you go be stupid on some other thread?

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It's easy not to see the challenge in something you choose to actively not do.

Minimizing the efforts and demands of other roles isn't a good look. I get you want your gun to go pop pop, and while Machinist has its own challenges, the ranged role in general has much fewer. They are, quite simply, at a baseline, not negatively impacted by so many basic mechanics it's extremely easy to take that for granted.

But hey, if we want to throw out a few barbs and slings.

You seem like the kind of person to tell a legless man he should take the stairs instead of the elevator, because it's good exercise.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

That RDM talking about optimizations prompted me to post. This is for all of you.

I find it kinda funny that the last few pages can be boiled down to, "My job archetype is the hardest" when basically none of you have played anything else at all. I'm only counting savage because it's not as faceroll as Extremes are. Almost none of you have any real level of perspective. If you did, you'd know that the conversation this thread has derailed into is hilariously shallow. This is because the simple answer is this:

All DPS job archetypes have unique challenges and difficulties that need to be met to do well with. Some people will find some challenges harder then others.

Proc-Based/Physical Ranged: Managing Procs and Priorities
Casters: Managing Movement and Uptime
Melee/Set Rotation: Managing Uptime and Rotation

I've played all 3 archetypes at either high or top levels and none of them are inherently "harder" then the others. Before anyone calls my credentials into question:

Proc-Based: Bard, Sigmascape
Casters: BLM/SMN, Deltascape / Sigmascape / post-Echo Alphascape / Current Tier
Melee/Set Rotation: SAM, Deltascape / Alphascape (week 1 clear)

Each has its unique challenges to overcome to do well with. To say your archetype has it worse is ignorance. I mean, out of the last 3 pages, I didn't see a SINGLE person with a Savage-level clear of a job outside of the archetype they're saying is a toughie. You ALL need a bit of perspective.

And, to the RDM that is saying proc-based is "harder to optimize:" honey, you talk with so much unearned confidence. Proc jobs can be just as mindless as Melee when just playing and can be just as hard as melee when you get to REAL optimization processes for a fight. What you're ACTUALLY saying is that you have difficulty following a basic priority system.

Sorry if this is a bit harsh for some of you to hear. I lurk this thread sometimes and you all are 1) missing the whole point of the topic (which we have an answer for: it didn't happen and was all fear mongering) and 2) are basically arguing the semantics of a falsehood.

Hopefully you guys get a bit more perspective.

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Actually if you'd read my posts then you'd know that my entire point is exactly what you said here. The only reason why I even brought up proc-based jobs was in response to the other poster attempting to talk as if pressing the same rotation in the same order every single time is somehow harder than proc-based jobs. But I guess coming in here acting high-and-mighty is more important than actually knowing what the conversation you're forcing yourself into is actually about.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Actually if you'd read my posts then you'd know that my entire point is exactly what you said here. The only reason why I even brought up proc-based jobs was in response to the other poster attempting to talk as if pressing the same rotation in the same order every single time is somehow harder than proc-based jobs. But I guess coming in here acting high-and-mighty is more important than actually knowing what the conversation you're forcing yourself into is actually about.

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You manage to insult so many people at the same time while still spouting incorrect statements AND pretending your previous posts somehow had a highground inherant point that no one is getting.

Have you ever considered no one gets your point because you are abyssmally terrible and making any points? Coherant or valid? You prove yourself again and again incapable of a rational thought when it comes to the difficulty and adaptations melee have to make.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Actually if you'd read my posts then you'd know that my entire point is exactly what you said here. The only reason why I even brought up proc-based jobs was in response to the other poster attempting to talk as if pressing the same rotation in the same order every single time is somehow harder than proc-based jobs. But I guess coming in here acting high-and-mighty is more important than actually knowing what the conversation you're forcing yourself into is actually about.

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You manage to insult so many people at the same time while still spouting incorrect statements AND pretending your previous posts somehow had a highground inherant point that no one is getting.

Have you ever considered no one gets your point because you are abyssmally terrible at making any points? Coherant or valid?

You prove yourself again and again incapable of a rational thought when it comes to the difficulty and adaptations melee have to make.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

Stuff

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The main reason why we assume melees are "harder" to play is because their mistakes cost them much more dps than ranged who could mess up a rotation.
On a ranged you may do a little less dps, but if you mess up your timings or rotation it wont hurt you as much as it does melees. If melee wont execute their rotation within certain amount of time or if he doesnt know the run and just mess up everything then no matter his little dps advantage he wont catch up to good bard or mch.

Everyone is basing their opinion on a savage content statistic, while its a statistic that has been taken primarly from organized static groups who are playing meta builds and who finish those savage raids successfully. In those static groups there is no rng element, people know what to do basically, they make a big part of the savage content statistics.
Now look at this

https://i.imgur.com/ZE7T1tE.png
The differences are no longer as big as they are in savage content, you could clearly see the ceilling for melees jobs is bigger than other jobs, but median is not far away from median for ranged with few exceptions.

Now apparently BLM is no longer the best dps, also his performance is super vulnerable to the player made mistakes, just look at the minimum and size of the the middle bar. Now look at the minimum performance of machinist, its higher than all the other jobs despite this job having really high APM.
I dont argue against buff for bottom dps jobs, but against a buff that will put them at the same level as melee jobs because that will basically take us back to the past with stormblood melees jobs being borderline useless.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

The main reason why we assume melees are "harder" to play is because their mistakes cost them much more dps than ranged who could mess up a rotation.
On a ranged you may do a little less dps, but if you mess up your timings or rotation it wont hurt you as much as it does melees. If melee wont execute their rotation within certain amount of time or if he doesnt know the run and just mess up everything then no matter his little dps advantage he wont catch up to good bard or mch.

Everyone is basing their opinion on a savage content statistic, while its a statistic that has been taken primarly from organized static groups who are playing meta builds and who finish those savage raids successfully. In those static groups there is no rng element, people know what to do basically, they make a big part of the savage content statistics.
Now look at this

https://i.imgur.com/ZE7T1tE.png
The differences are no longer as big as they are in savage content, you could clearly see the ceilling for melees jobs is bigger than other jobs, but median is not far away from median for ranged with few exceptions.

Now apparently BLM is no longer the best dps, also his performance is super vulnerable to the player made mistakes, just look at the minimum and size of the the middle bar. Now look at the minimum performance of machinist, its higher than all the other jobs despite this job having really high APM.
I dont argue bottom dps jobs are indeed in need of a small buff, but nothing that would make them better than melees because that will basically take us back to the past with stormblood melees jobs being borderline useless.

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problem with that kind of statistic is that you are taking the floor and the ceiling and arguing in a way as if both are of equal worth aswell as necessarely saying the same thing. taking your own picture just look at bard compared to samurai/dragoon, all three of these classes have their floor at nearly the same point,being a terrible bard you will do basically as bad as a terrible dragoon/samurai, yet their ceiling is about twice as much ahead of bard then even the median range, now what does that tell us ? yes, you could argue melees are harder to optimise, but as it stands, even with the normal mode statistics you linked, where there is done jack shit for optimization they are still ahead even at the bottom, and optimization obviously is allways possible.

the fact that the ceiling is so far ahead while the floor is nearly equal can mean three things,

A) it is harder to be a good melee/Bad ranged
B) it is easier to be a bad melee/good ranged
C)a combination of these two.

the important part here is that A) and B) are not the same. it being easier to be "decent as a physical ranged" does not prove in itself that it is easier to be good at it compared to a melee, without in depth class knowledge, which most people lack.
So yes, it is possible to mean having high uptime and hitting positionals is harder than basically being glued to your hotbars watching for proccs 24/7 without forgetting the next mechanics but it may just aswell mean that fucking up completly if you are just plain bad is easier on melee while if you are even decent it is actually equally hard.

look at the median range for monk, not the dps but the actual range of it, its basically equal to bard in length only very slightly longer , as you yourself pointed out that the extremely long "median range" for blackmage implies it is hard to optimize and prone to error this would in return mean an "equal" median range implies about equal error proneness, it would also mean redmage is about as hard as any melee sans ninja, yet people hail it as the easiest caster by far, how come ?

the fact of the matter is that skill floor does not necessarely corrolate 1:1 to skill ceiling, a class may be easy to be decent at, yet hard as nails to bring to perfection, and for all this "people *cough* crazys *cough* want the easy phys ranges to deal as much as the hard melees" the whole "melees need to have 500~ dps up on them to be worthwhile" is the exact same thing in reverse, its "give them enough of a leg up so even the total fuck up melees are equal to the total fuck up ranges".

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

problem with that kind of statistic is that you are taking the floor and the ceiling and arguing in a way as if both are of equal worth aswell as necessarely saying the same thing. taking your own picture just look at bard compared to samurai/dragoon, all three of these classes have their floor at nearly the same point,being a terrible bard you will do basically as bad as a terrible dragoon/samurai, yet their ceiling is about twice as much ahead of bard then even the median range, now what does that tell us ? yes, you could argue melees are harder to optimise, but as it stands, even with the normal mode statistics you linked, where there is done jack shit for optimization they are still ahead even at the bottom, and optimization obviously is allways possible.

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Thats what i am trying to tell, this is my point.
Melees has higher ceiling so they should do more damage, its harder to optimize melee job and its less forgiving and range proc based jobs should not be at the same level, because it would be absurd.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

the fact that the ceiling is so far ahead while the floor is nearly equal can mean three things,

A) it is harder to be a good melee/Bad ranged
B) it is easier to be a bad melee/good ranged
C)a combination of these two.

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Its C

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

the important part here is that A) and B) are not the same. it being easier to be "decent as a physical ranged" does not prove in itself that it is easier to be good at it compared to a melee, without in depth class knowledge, which most people lack.
So yes, it is possible to mean having high uptime and hitting positionals is harder than basically being glued to your hotbars watching for proccs 24/7 without forgetting the next mechanics but it may just aswell mean that fucking up completly if you are just plain bad is easier on melee while if you are even decent it is actually equally hard.

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We basically speak the same language here.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

the fact of the matter is that skill floor does not necessarely corrolate 1:1 to skill ceiling, a class may be easy to be decent at, yet hard as nails to bring to perfection, and for all this "people *cough* crazys *cough* want the easy phys ranges to deal as much as the hard melees" the whole "melees need to have 500~ dps up on them to be worthwhile" is the exact same thing in reverse, its "give them enough of a leg up so even the total fuck up melees are equal to the total fuck up ranges".

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Melees need an absolute knowledge about every single skill used by the raid boss in order to reach this perfection state. Just look at samurai 99% and max and compare them the difference between both is huge, and it requires not only knowledge but a good friendly team that will let him to do so, while for example bard will do it regardless of tank positioning.
1-2% damage advantage for melees is a fair deal for a much higher ceiling, if you think its not then wait for melee players complains of why their job is F up like there were complains in stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Thats what i am trying to tell, this is my point.
Melees has higher ceiling so they should do more damage, its harder to optimize melee job and its less forgiving and range proc based jobs should not be at the same level, because it would be absurd.

Melees need an absolute knowledge about every single skill used by the raid boss in order to reach this perfection state. Just look at samurai 99% and max and compare them the difference between both is huge, and it requires not only knowledge but a good friendly team that will let him to do so, while for example bard will do it regardless of tank positioning.

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looking at the max percentile for any job is a bad idea, not because of any special variables but because you can never perfectly optimize a fight for every class at once, like yes you can get a raid going were everyone is 98-99, but you will hardly get a raid with 2x100% dps let alone more, also define huge. yes its a shitton but looking at the whole tier even for bard the range is 500 dps from 99-100, the range going from 99-100 is actually smaller on nin than it is on bard and bigger on dancer than on samurai so by your logic that would cement dancer as the hardest class and nin as easier than bard.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

1-2% damage advantage for melees is a fair deal for a much higher ceiling, if you think its not then wait for melee players complains of why their job is F up like there were complains in stormblood.

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and 2% at the absolute top end would be 300 dps (thats at 99%, again max is stupid), at the absolute top end 99% (as you yourself used) buffing bard by a whopping 10% would put bard still at around 350 dps below monk, and yes monk is the nail that sticks out slightly higher than the rest, but as we argue theoretical perfect balance the other melees should reach the same point or monk would need to come down and drag blackmage along and squares track record shows that they rather buff then nerf so theres that. People advocate for a melee advantage in the range of 500 dps/a ranged buff in the range of 5-6% dps as perfectly balanced, in either of these cases the melee advantage would be closer to 5% then to 2%.

So no, nearly all the people here that gave numbers how much extra dps they want the melees to deal or how much they think ranges need to be buffed advocate for a much higher discreptancy than 1-2%, also thats comparing to monk, lets do it the other way around, if nin deals 2% more than the best ranged monk would still do 5% more



Also, about the higher ceiling, why should a higher skill ceiling, if we say thats what it is be rewarded if at the same time the floor and median is identical ? Say we only got 2 classes for this thought experiment, we got

A) MELEE
B) PHYSICAL RANGED

these are our classes. Now both these classes if Played like complete crap are perfectly equal. Both of these classes if played semi decently are perfectly equal. Both of these classes played to perfection and with a group that goes the extra mile to make it happen melee wins by lets say just 400 dps. NOW the group had to go the extra mile, they had to develop a strat for this damage and maybe move around players a bit to get it down to this level of perfection, and it may well be fair to say the group should be rewarded for this, but where in this equation is the drawback for not doing it ?

its a bit like the redmage/Summoner rezz, these things are nearly useless 95% of the time, but they do offer some value for the trys where they might save the day so they should be somewhat taxed (not nearly as much as they are, but of course there needs some tax to it, otherwise the question would be "you want to take a blackmage with or without rezz?"). Advocating for anything above 300 dps (and that has to be taken from the top, if anything argue that the other melees need to be closer to monk) at the absolute top end simply leaves us with "a bad melee is equal a bad ranged, a decent melee is equal to a decent ranged, a great melee smokes a great ranged" and thats as balanced as giving redmages the same dps as blackmages while letting them keep the rezz because at this point it moves away from "the group has to optimize for the melee to deal his full potential" onwards to "taking a melee allows the group to optimize to get extra dps, but they may aswell not optimize any further than giving the 2 melees the spots closes to the boss and still do exactly the same as taking a ranged" Basically saying "the group has to optimize with and for the melee" only works out balanced if theirs drawback to not doing so, being equally good if doing nothing, better if doing something is not a drawback

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

How about when the bosses rear is about to explode, in a zone that nobody else is in so your share-damage-or-die mechanic will kill you on bad timing, judging whether or not your GCD will roll in time to make the movement worthwhile, and whether or not you can make it back to safety to make the extra bit of potency for the bonus not result in dying?

Nothing in a vacuum is big brained.

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True north and dont go into the dangerzone

Also since everyone's bitching about their job being harder and how much dps they'll lose I'll just point out that if you miss a gcd on a melee because you moved out too far you can get it off as soon as you are back in range, it will cause you to drift eventually away from a dummy rotation setting but it's not that big a deal unless you were waiting for the very last second on some sort of combo timer/buff. If you miss a positional you won't miss a whole lot of potency. If you miss a GCD as a caster because you had to move and cancel a spell that GCD is never coming back. Yeah you can ruin 2 or xeno or something to fill the gap while you move, but the 2 seconds you already spent casting are gone and that's purely lost potency.

Missing GCDs entirely as a melee seems almost impossible to even do in current savage to me with all the melee uptime strats. Except for the tank with the big boy splosion in e3s i guess, poor guy.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

You manage to insult so many people at the same time while still spouting incorrect statements AND pretending your previous posts somehow had a highground inherant point that no one is getting.

Have you ever considered no one gets your point because you are abyssmally terrible at making any points? Coherant or valid?

You prove yourself again and again incapable of a rational thought when it comes to the difficulty and adaptations melee have to make.

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Nothing I've said is inaccurate. Unlike you, I actually read the posts I respond to, and then reply in a focused way to the meat of the argument I'm replying to. On the other hand, you have the annoying tendency of going on long-winded rants about irrelevant crap, and it's really annoying to process and filter all that garbage.

Here's the bottom line: Melee is not in any way more difficult than casters, and physical ranged are expected to take on additional responsibility in return for their general ease of play. I hope that's concise enough for you to finally wrap your head around.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Nothing I've said is inaccurate. Unlike you, I actually read the posts I respond to, and then reply in a focused way to the meat of the argument I'm replying to. On the other hand, you have the annoying tendency of going on long-winded rants about irrelevant crap, and it's really annoying to process and filter all that garbage.

Here's the bottom line: Melee is not in any way more difficult than casters, and physical ranged are expected to take on additional responsibility in return for their general ease of play. I hope that's concise enough for you to finally wrap your head around.

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Many things you've said were in fact very inaccurate. I even proved it so a couple times.

Still so insulting! My god you dont have the monopoly on intellect you ingrate. My detailed responses show i do in fact read very carefully every word written i respond to.

Your responses just prove you are an intentionally demeaning @$$hat.

But for once your conclusion i can actually agree with. Btw if you thought i was arguing melee were more inherantly difficult than casters you really werent paying attention.

Man, Im waiting, just waiting, for that sweet potency buff to DNC but big nerf to both steps, so I can hate all of you for the rest of your days on this board.