The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

That sounds about right.

... I'm pro getting rid of enrage timers. The primary reason enrage timers exist is to pressure dps into optimizing their damage and to enforce item level requirements on the group, but the healers mana along with the tanks own longevity already act as an enrage timer.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

... I'm pro getting rid of enrage timers. The primary reason enrage timers exist is to pressure dps into optimizing their damage and to enforce item level requirements on the group, but the healers mana along with the tanks own longevity already act as an enrage timer.

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Healers shouldnt have mana problems if theres a bard/machinist in your group casting refresh and your tanks shouldnt be dying to mechanics, its understandable for both to happen when ur learning the fight but as you get better at the fight, you dont run out of mana as a healer often, nor do tanks die to anything, getting rid of enrage timers just takes away a challenge...should they be done better? Absolutely. Should they be removed? No.

Part of the challenge of a fight IS managing healer mana and tank cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

... I'm pro getting rid of enrage timers. The primary reason enrage timers exist is to pressure dps into optimizing their damage and to enforce item level requirements on the group, but the healers mana along with the tanks own longevity already act as an enrage timer.

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Putting pressure on DPS to actually play their jobs properly to clear SAVAGE content? Well I'll be damned. Why would they ever do such a thing?

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Originally Posted by Colt47

... I'm pro getting rid of enrage timers. The primary reason enrage timers exist is to pressure dps into optimizing their damage and to enforce item level requirements on the group, but the healers mana along with the tanks own longevity already act as an enrage timer.

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Alleviating that pressure removes any necessity Damage Dealers have. Why bring a Bard or Machinist when you can bring all three healers? These fights aren't intended to be a simple war of attrition but a test of skill. With experience and/or gear, you won't even see enrage.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

... I'm pro getting rid of enrage timers. The primary reason enrage timers exist is to pressure dps into optimizing their damage and to enforce item level requirements on the group, but the healers mana along with the tanks own longevity already act as an enrage timer.

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No they don't.
Why do think things such as Refresh, Aetherflow, Energy Drain, Ewer, Thin Air, Lucid dream, exist ?

Right ? Are you familiar with this?
Okay.

Then => NO

also

" The primary reason enrage timers exist is to pressure dps into optimizing their damage and to enforce item level requirements on the group"

Pressure ? LOL ? Doing his rotation correctly isn't "pressure". It's what's expected from an average dps player. Opzimizing is expected from everyone to make the duty easier for everyone. Where are you coming from...

I'm not a fan of enrage timers but I'm not against getting rid of them. Once you've mastered the mechanics, optimizing your dps to beat the timer is the only thing you have left to improve yourself.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

... I'm pro getting rid of enrage timers. The primary reason enrage timers exist is to pressure dps into optimizing their damage and to enforce item level requirements on the group, but the healers mana along with the tanks own longevity already act as an enrage timer.

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Then why the hell would I bring a DPS to any difficult fight over more healers and more tanks? DPS is a pressured job? Have you even played a healer?

Enrage timers exist to give DPS some kind of accountability in content, because God forbid with this community/mentality, they don't have any already.

this entire topic make no sense lol, Rid of enrage timer? and what you want the boss to kill himself with the press of one button next?

Enrages as they are are often too strict. I'm for their removal, but even just toning them down somewhat would be fine. It's fine if you don't want a fight to potentially be able to last forever, but pretty much every meaningful foe being able to just 1 shot the party after enough time just feels egregious after a while. Like, why don't they just do that at the very start of the fight?

Enrages are not a necessary mechanic to push people to want to win fights as fast as possible; they already want to do that themselves.

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this entire topic make no sense lol, Rid of enrage timer? and what you want the boss to kill himself with the press of one button next?

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You're stretching. Try focusing on what the topic is actually asking about rather than just assuming players want an automatic win.

IMO if you're able to struggle through a fight without completely dying and still eke out a win, that's more preferable than the current potential situation of "well, someone died early, we might as well just wipe and start over now because of enrage"

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Enrages as they are are often too strict. I'm for their removal, but even just toning them down somewhat would be fine. It's fine if you don't want a fight to potentially be able to last forever, but pretty much every meaningful foe being able to just 1 shot the party after enough time just feels egregious after a while. Like, why don't they just do that at the very start of the fight?

Enrages are not a necessary mechanic to push people to want to win fights as fast as possible; they already want to do that themselves.



You're stretching. Try focusing on what the topic is actually asking about rather than just assuming players want an automatic win.

IMO if you're able to struggle through a fight without completely dying and still eke out a win, that's more preferable than the current potential situation of "well, someone died early, we might as well just wipe and start over now because of enrage"

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But the thing is...a lot of fights are still winnable, even with a couple of deaths. But a lot of groups are still at min Ilvl, so why nerf some of the challenge of actually doing the tried-and-true method of not dying as a group while optimizing your full skill set before power creep starts setting in? If someone in your group is constantly dying, its on the party leader to remove that person. They have that right, and if they want to keep the group going, that's what they have to do. Unless its a static. Nobody is forcing players to try out Savage content - if one hates enrage in Savage content on the principle of 'if we struggle without dying, we should be allowed to win', then those folks should keep in mind that this is optional content and thus you need to earn your win. Some of those same folks - keep in mind I said some - are the same people who want to get carried through content. And if you're hitting enrage in normal fights after a couple of weeks, then your group is just bad <--- enrage timer, that is. The weird way enrages works for Ifrit, Leviathan, Ramuh, and Ravana are different matters.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Enrages as they are are often too strict.

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Mmm, not really. Most fights average an enrage around 10~11 minutes, with there being some exceptions of noticeably shorter (e.g., V4S Exdeath’s enrage was at 4:50 unless you pushed him below 60% health; Twintania and Nael enrage at 3:00 in Ultimate) and some being longer (e.g., Neo’s enrage, which is at 12:40). The majority of enrages are seen in Extremes, Savage, and Ultimate—content that is supposed to be challenging. As long as players have a semblance of how to play their job and don’t die an absurd amount of times, there should be no problem meeting enrages. In V4S, you could have upwards of 10 deaths/have to healer LB3 during Grand Cross Omega and still clear, so long as you were pushing out 24,000 rDPS.

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You're stretching. Try focusing on what the topic is actually asking about rather than just assuming players want an automatic win.

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Eh, in a way they have a point. How many times do you see people asking for fights to be nerfed because they actually pose a challenge?

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IMO if you're able to struggle through a fight without completely dying and still eke out a win, that's more preferable than the current potential situation of "well, someone died early, we might as well just wipe and start over now because of enrage"

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Like I said above, you can already do that. I’ve been in groups with more than 10 deaths in V4S that had to healer LB3 during or after GCO, and we still cleared before he ever began casting his enrage Almagest. The people in the party weren’t uber-level orange parsers either.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

IMO if you're able to struggle through a fight without completely dying and still eke out a win, that's more preferable than the current potential situation of "well, someone died early, we might as well just wipe and start over now because of enrage"

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I'll echo a bit what Kaiva and Hyomin already said: Pretty much all fights are still beatable with some deaths - even with people who dont have BiS-gear and are playing like young gods. I think my FC even managed to beat Shinryu EX with two members just barely reaching the ilvl and people dying.
In my experience people dont wipe because "we wont beat it anymore because of enrage" but rather "its to bothersome to salvage this and we're only one minute into the fights, lets reset". The only people who probably yell "wipe! enrage!" are the ones who can not afford deaths because they're not reaching the general skill-level the fight requires, aka: they're actually to bad and therefor have no place in extreme/savage content in the first place until they improve - or they're after some sort of perfect run. The later will still shout "wipe! someone died!" even without enrage.
The first group shouldnt get their kill at all. That sounds harsh, I know, but the enrage-timer is a way to check your performance. No enrage timer is super strict or "to strict" like you claim - a medicore group can pretty much clear everything. Those fights shouldnt be something that you just throw yourself against til it finally gives in - hitting enrage is a clear message to the group that they need to improve. And yes, that specially targets DPS - just how a dead tank is a clear message for the tank and the healers that they need to improve (or at least one of them has to) - a wipe-by-enrage is a clear message to the DPS that they have to improve.

I remember that my casual static had a hard time with Kalia (T11) - we hit enrage a few times, it was super frustrating. Our dragoon back then recorded one run at somepoint (not actually for research, just for fun) and one of our friends looked at and went like "Why is he (the dragoon) always turned away from the boss? Hes losing out on all his auto attacks, thats a massive dps-loss right there!"
...so yeah - hitting enrage because the dragoon was wiggeling his butt into Kalias face for like a third of the fight instead of poking her. Pretty much deserved those wipes.

Savage and extreme content should be a challenge - and the challenge shouldnt be "how long can you endure this?" but "bring your A-game and perform well!"
In my experience people are actually yelling for wipes because they dont want to endure that - it most often happens in the first minute or so, when you have to ask yourself "Do we want to struggle for the rest of the fight - or do we quickly reset?" Think about how certain classes really, really suffer when they die! Monks losing stacks, BLMs needing to build up Polyglot again, all that stuff. Might aswell reset and get a fresh, clean start with all buffs up.
You're asking for an endless struggle - and from my experience thats not what people actually want. We wipe because we dont want to salvage - not to avoid enrage. (That being said: my static is great with salvaging runs! We do that most of the time - and guess what: we still beat the thing, even with deaths, even with people not pulling godly numbers. If we wipe, we wipe for the convince of a fresh start, not because we're worried over enrage.)

Little edit: Funny enough the jobs that would suffer the most from no enrage are tanks and healers - running out of mana and cooldowns - and not the jobs primarly responsible for dragging out the fight... the dps...

If the enrage-timer feels so strict to you that your party isnt allowed to have even one dead person and needs to wipe if not everyone performs perfectly, I really wonder why your enrage is so close then... if you require perfection on the excution of the fight (aka: no one dies, so everyone does the mechanics correctly all the time), I'm wondering why those people dont invest some time to reach "perfection" at their job...
("perfection" in quotationmarks to underline that I rather mean: a medicore performance)

Little Edit: Funny enough it would be tanks and healers who'd suffer the most from dragging out fights - running out of mana and cooldowns - and not the jobs responsible for the fight going on for the 30 minutes - aka the dps that couldnt bother to gear up and/or learn their rotation...

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

IMO if you're able to struggle through a fight without completely dying and still eke out a win, that's more preferable than the current potential situation of "well, someone died early, we might as well just wipe and start over now because of enrage"

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If you're doing this, then you're going at progression entirely wrong. Even if you know you won't beat the enrage timer, you still should see the fight to the end to get more experience. There's a lot of free damage to be gained with more optimized uptime, which you can only gain through more experience. There's a reason RDM is so good for progression. You're definitely not gonna beat the fight after the 13th raise, but the fact that you can keep going and see mechanics means you're learning at an accelerated rate.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

If you're doing this, then you're going at progression entirely wrong. Even if you know you won't beat the enrage timer, you still should see the fight to the end to get more experience. There's a lot of free damage to be gained with more optimized uptime, which you can only gain through more experience. There's a reason RDM is so good for progression. You're definitely not gonna beat the fight after the 13th raise, but the fact that you can keep going and see mechanics means you're learning at an accelerated rate.

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My experience thus far has been that rolling sloppy runs over into the next phase is only helpful if the enrage timer is highly lenient (given the particular group, and their gear), or one stand-out mechanic is particularly challenging in a way that will at first destroy coordination regardless of quality of entry. Once one has a decent grasp of what to do for the mechanic, it's far easier on muscle memory and optimization to wipe if things get messy and restart until entering that new phase cleanly, and if the enrage is tightly tuned it usually allows a group to clear faster, even if they may seen enrage later than most.

Edit: Personally, I just see Enrage as the other half of mechanics, albeit a sadly transient half. You can pass many a mechanic by doing no more than running in circles clucking and gargling if you so wished (unless it's a Blighted Bouquet mech, etc.). The enrage is what ultimately checks for the quality of play across all mechanics and between them, and I see the much more intricate relationship it encourages between one's job abilities (given their gear and surrounding party composition) and the fight itself as a massive boon to the raiding experience. Though more stressful, the fight is only a tiny portion as tedious as it otherwise would be if not for that threat, because of how it obliges me to engage with the fight on every level.

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If you're doing this, then you're going at progression entirely wrong. Even if you know you won't beat the enrage timer, you still should see the fight to the end to get more experience.

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There's not much to be experienced when half the party is on the floor. A lot of mechanics don't even play out as intended under those circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

There's not much to be experienced when half the party is on the floor. A lot of mechanics don't even play out as intended under those circumstances.

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...yes and THATS why people call for a wipe - because its easier to restart and reset than to salvage. They're not calling for a wipe because of "we cant beat it anymore because enrage".
If we were to get rid of enrage timers the fights that are now planned to be 11-minute-fights (on average) would need to be changed in a way that makes it less attractive to reset them, aka: they'd had to be dragged out longer so that wiping would really hurt.
...or turned into 3-minute-striking-dummies that fall over if you poke them carefully with a BLM-rod...

Yeah I don’t like hard enrages either; can’t tell ya how many 1-2% have wiped us. I’m Prefer soft enrages where it’s just gets harder but still doable. I understand appealing to the hardcores is important and keeping content desirable. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Let me just be able to heal all content with my regens only as WHM. Deal? Deal!

Okay, good. You can now proceed to faceroll through the game, even the ENDGAME content.
Never liked challanges anyways

And no, i'm not a raider, never did any savages and the only thing i do are a few extremes. Thats about it. And i'm still fine with it because some people WANT the challange.
They WANT to learn the mechanics to get around it.
Why take challanges away just because you can't clear them? I probably COULD, given enough time to learn the mechanics, just like every other fights i had problems with.
And if i could, nothing would stop you because i'm medicore at best.

It can get already super tedious if people keep dying on raids or anything as healer or the lonely dps/Tank that does everything right... Theres no enrage timeers needed for wipes.

I don't even think enrage timers themself are what cause the wipes.
Its the failing of mechanics and people dying BEFORE that cause the wipe.

You can't do any mechanic right and everybody hits the floor 4 times? Do you deserve the win? Probably not.
You can do mechanics kinda well, some people die like 2 times. Do you deserve the win? Yeah, probably get it, too
Nobody dies or at least maximum one death? Yep, you deserved it, here's a cookie.

Given that the final boss of Fractal HM has essentially an enrage cast when it reaches 10-15% hp, it seems SE disagrees with the OP.

Not much of an enrage, though; I have yet to have a group unable to kill that boss before the enrage cast goes off.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

... I'm pro getting rid of enrage timers. The primary reason enrage timers exist is to pressure dps into optimizing their damage and to enforce item level requirements on the group, but the healers mana along with the tanks own longevity already act as an enrage timer.

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Nope. There are numerous abilities set in place to combat MP loss. Not to mention you're literally complaining about having to optimize your damage, which, as a DPS player, you should be doing at all times anyway. And with this logic, parties should wipe as soon as 1 healer dies. Kind of a lame excuse. Honesty I feel like this entire thread is just trying to absolve DPS players of the responsibility they have in raids. Removing enrage timers allows DPS roles to kick back and relax while tanks/healers struggle. Thank God the devs would never do something that foolish.

It is utterly pointless to debate this.

Enrage timer is a mechanic...like any other mechanic...its one that's been in majority of Final Fantasy games since as long as I could remember.
People who are against it...are just flat lazy....and want a "I win" button.

SE isn't going to hear you on this....you will be ignored on this. Get used to it...or move on. If you can't handle it...you or your party are doing it wrong. It doesn't take much to figure it out.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

... I'm pro getting rid of enrage timers. The primary reason enrage timers exist is to pressure dps into optimizing their damage and to enforce item level requirements on the group, but the healers mana along with the tanks own longevity already act as an enrage timer.

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Item level requirements exist for reasons other than just DPS checks. They also exist for survivability. That's why a lot of world first raiders meld Vitality into the right side of crafted gear until they get enough HP to survive mechanics without it. It's also why you need VIT melds in ultimate--so you can survive the outgoing damage once you start getting to Bahamut and his myriad of mechanics. In V4S, if you had less than 35,000 health and not very many pieces of 330/340 gear, you were going to have issues just surviving the outgoing damage. Casters and healers had to meld VIT until they got enough 330/340 gear to survive without it. So item level isn't just there for DPS requirements.

That being said, what's wrong with asking DPS to perform their promises function at a relatively decent level?

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

It is utterly pointless to debate this.

Enrage timer is a mechanic...like any other mechanic...its one that's been in majority of Final Fantasy games since as long as I could remember.
People who are against it...are just flat lazy....and want a "I win" button.

SE isn't going to hear you on this....you will be ignored on this. Get used to it...or move on. If you can't handle it...you or your party are doing it wrong. It doesn't take much to figure it out.

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https://media2.giphy.com/media/9CvWZTFXyNBio/200.gif

I rather like enrage timers. I think that when a group is starting out on a particular fight, obviously the goal is to master the mechanics, then optimize DPS while nailing mechanics. It makes you play better knowing u cant slack off mid encounter. My group and I lost several times in a row to Alte Roite enrage at 2% or less because we were not applying the pressure as much as possible/dps (myself included) dying. Would be cheesy if you could take an hr to down it.

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Originally Posted by Kazgrel

Given that the final boss of Fractal HM has essentially an enrage cast when it reaches 10-15% hp, it seems SE disagrees with the OP.

Not much of an enrage, though; I have yet to have a group unable to kill that boss before the enrage cast goes off.

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If someone fails that time, then I have nothing to say.

I don't have anything against enrage timers but we need to be careful with them.

The ones in Gordias were a big reason for it's failure.

Maybe if we tried not having them in raids we could focus on having mechanics that are more difficult or involved? I remember hearing about how the Dev team needed to tone mechanics down due to the complicated DPS rotations combined with the strict enrage timers.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

snip

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No, you don't get to call everyone who doesn't agree with you lazy or bad.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

No, you don't get to call everyone who doesn't agree with you lazy or bad.

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Nephthys said what most people are thinking in this thread, tbh. This thread obviously appeals to DPS mains who don't actually feel like being pushed to their highest potential. If enrage timers are removed, why would you even need DPS roles? Why not just use PF to gather up a bunch of tanks and healers to take on everything? The people who are saying "oh the devs can focus on more advanced mechs" are spouting bs. Even with more difficult mechanics, the lack of an enrage timer would mean the DPS players could still be lazy with their rotations and lazy with everything else. Putting literally every bit of the difficulty on tanks/healers to keep the party from dying. "Lazy" seems like a harsh word to use, but in this situation, it's honestly the most accurate.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Enrage timer is a mechanic...like any other mechanic...its one that's been in majority of Final Fantasy games since as long as I could remember.

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I know FFXI had enrages of sorts, but I'm not so sure about single-player Final Fantasy's having enrage mechanics.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

[...] Maybe if we tried not having them in raids we could focus on having mechanics that are more difficult or involved? [...]

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Or keep them in Raids and add DPS checks in a handful of dungeons... get people used to DPS checks. Get them used to having to perform DPS checks, so that when they get to raiding, they are already used to their existence. Raise the skill floor.

Inb4 people saying "People will quit/unfair to casuals/this is not a job/etc.", so what? I am expected to be DPSing as much as possible (that means not being in tank stance and doing my DPS rotation) as a tank while mitigating damage, doing mechanics, and holding hate. I expect DPS to be doing decent damage... which means more than my DPS as a tank by a good margin (20% or more of my damage at least). What I am expecting shouldn't be too difficult to do for a job who's main function is in their role title.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I know FFXI had enrages of sorts, but I'm not so sure about single-player Final Fantasy's having enrage mechanics.

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Final Fantasy XIII makes use of enrage timers from at least Chapter 10 onwards. The game never explicitly says so, but if you reach 20 minutes in a boss battle the boss will cast a 3-minute (I believe), unremovable Doom on your character. If the boss isn't dead before the timer finishes, you die. Even happens against the post-game "ultimate" boss too. That'll teach me to play it safe and turtle. :rolleyes:

Can't really think of anything older than that besides specific one-off encounters such as Sin's Giga Graviton, though.

Oh. I never had a boss fight last that long in XIII, so I didn't know about that.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I know FFXI had enrages of sorts, but I'm not so sure about single-player Final Fantasy's having enrage mechanics.

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In a sense you could say that Emerald Weapon in FF7 has an "enrage" in the sense that without the correct materia equipped you need to beat it within 20 minutes.

FF8 starts with a time-limit in which you have to navigate through the city and beat a boss - in a sense we could view that as enrage-timer aswell.

FF10 has the time-limit when it comes to escaping the Al Bhed home - I'm not sure anymore if there is a boss involved or only random encounters though. There is also the Chocobo-eater-boss that can either be defeated, knocked off a cliff or knocks your party off the cliff - depending on how you fight, you'll get better rewards. I mention this because (if I recall correctly) this works in a way that he pushes your party back three times - if hes not defeated before the fourth push, you'll get knocked down and be left without any reward, making this an "enrage"-fight.

I also played FF12 (Zodiac Job System though - not sure if that holds true for the original version) and some of the optional bosses had time-limits, which are basically an enrage-timer.

I know that all of those arent the "hidden" enrage-timer we've got in this game and that some involve more than just beating a boss, but they all have something in common with the enrage-timer we've got here: If you dont "master" the game, if you dont have the needed skill to do something within a given timeframe, you'll lose.
The only difference is that in a single player game its pretty clear who messed up and who is accountable for the "wipe".

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Originally Posted by Vidu

The only difference is that in a single player game its pretty clear who messed up and who is accountable for the "wipe".

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It's the ATB, right? :^)

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Originally Posted by Nestama

It's the ATB, right? :^)

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Kimahri. Its always Kimahri.

Edit: It really is Kimahri. And you know why? Because he deals less damage than Auron...

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Originally Posted by Quor

Remove the enrage timers and you remove a large part of the impetus behind everyone trying to push out as much dps as possible. Right now, there is no choice; you either dps hard enough to avoid enrage/clear the check or you wipe. If SE is serious about not wanting the dps speed/efficiency meta to reign supreme, then they need to remove dps checks and enrage timers and let players choose whether they want to run a sprint or a marathon.

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isnt this what gear progression does. when the fastest kill times are multiple min's faster then enrage the argument becomes moot. unless you are pushing for more people getting day one clears i dont really see the point. raids are easier then ever at the moment

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20100102171045

Oh joy! Necromancy! I know how to deal with this.

https://i.imgur.com/QqwnmDh.gif

id love to be a dps role warrior but the game won't let you so that thing about want to do damage be a dps goes straight out the window

The funniest thing about this necropost is that, instead of bringing something completely fresh to the thread, the necrothreader decides to directly reply to the first post of the thread, a thread literally started on the first month of 2018.


Amazing.