Survey: Community Opinions Regarding Parsing/Parsers in Final Fantasy XIV

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

Throws arms in the air.
I give up
are people intentionally twisting my words or they legit do not understand what I am saying?

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You literally said that Bourne saying others aren't good enough to play with is why "he" doesn't want parsers, I presume Yoshida. It implies that there is something wrong with it if you take it at face value. I didn't misinterpret anything, you just poorly worded your sentence.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

Someone did:


It is a prospective issue, not being exposed outside your bubble, while trying to push every other situation is the same as the bubble you are in. Has nothing to do with what is wrong or right

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Not everyone who is posting here is of the highest level though? In general when I pug I pug with the average player. I'm nothing close to a world first player. While I may be more skilled than the average person and have cleared savage content, it does not mean I am suddenly blind to issues or dilemmas in other skill levels because of "culture." If that was your point, you're making a lot of assumptions, which is a terrible thing to do. I know it's not about wrong or right, I am just saying that people keep making sweeping generalizations and it's just hurting their arguments. I am not part of a "bubble," and most people you are speaking to probably aren't as well.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

For me personally, its not okay if someone is obviously trolling, but i dont mind now someone doing badly, because i do not like to be called for it either. I have learned that from League of Legends when community outrage is gigantic, i also understand it doesnt matter if am i going to be mad or not, since there is nothing to be mad about at the end of the day its just a game, great part of the gamers community doesnt take it seriously so why should i? My rage will not learn anyone how to play, you will not convince them how to play properly, so why bother.
I am coming from a conclusion, if you want to have fun in the game, you need to be the part of that fun in online game. Raging and calling and kicking will only enforce this behavior further into the community, if i will kick someone for their performance, the one kicked away will do it to the someone else.

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It's a team game, at the end of the day. If one person's underperformance is causing seven other people to fail, the best thing to do for the team is kick that person and bring in someone who can play at the same level as the other seven. Is it fair to have everyone else have their time wasted by someone who simply can't play at that level?

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Because playing badly is for the most part not a thing someone could overcome so easly. What if that one guy has weird IRL circumstances happening around him or when he never played mmorpg before or is he doing the certain duty for the first time, he doesnt control it and doesnt have an ability to just stop playing badly on a dime.

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Someone doing a high end duty for the first time should join a learning party, where that's the expectation. Nothing wrong with that at all. Someone who has never played an MMO before isn't going to be doing Susano Ex, they'll be doing Copperbell Mines, and that one is tuned for learning. Someone who has weird IRL circumstances is unfortunate, but again, why does that mean everyone else has to suffer?

At some point, you have to respect other people's time. I see very little of that in a lot of these posts.

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The people raging and being rude could control themselves, and they are being little brats over a game, over a PUG which an experienced player should have know he is not going to get everyone playing good in it. You may be playing with a party finder, well thats not also the best way to get things sorted, its just a different form of PUG with random people looking for a party.

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There's no reason to be rude, but if I set up a farm party and you're incapable of farming, I'm kicking you. I can be polite about it, but I'm still kicking you. Some people call that rude elitist toxic behavior all on its own. But there's a bunch of other people also paying subs who joined a farm party, and as the party leader that's what I try and deliver.

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1. I understand people getting annoyed when they losed their ranking in the certain team based game (cs go, lol, dota), but i cant understand why over such stupid thing? People on low lvls when they need to beat a certain dungeon in order to proceed into the story has better excuse of being abusive than this, but i find them way more patient and kind then someone apparently rushing for glamour, that makes no sense.

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Story content is largely in levelling roulette, especially with newbies. Everyone knows you're getting newbies in levelling roulette. It's fine.

A farm party should be able to farm. That's the point. If someone can't, they shouldn't be there. That's on them for wasting everyone else's time, not on everyone else for being unwilling to have their own play time hijacked so someone can get a carry.

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I know the time is precious, but when someone value their own time over the progress they do, they could be called addicted to the game.

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This makes no sense whatsoever. Addiction has a specific meaning and diagnosis. Belittling that like this is insulting.

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They dont get anything real anyway, they still waste time for the game, and they should be aware of they dont really are entitled to do the progress all the time and there is a chance of them losing something, like in any other game, sometimes you just lose sometimes you win, you cant win all the time, lol.

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The entire game is a "waste of time", if you think about it. It's recreation. If people choose to spend their time on it, that's their right in a free society. And yeah, you might lose on some runs. That's how it goes. But if you're losing because someone simply can't play at the level required, you remove them and fix the problem. You don't throw your hands up and go "oh well, I guess it's impossible tonight because forming a party that actually can clear the encounter would be rude".

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2. The game is growing and inviting more newbies also those from the consoles who never played mmorpg before, % of "competent players" will decrease and there is nothing to be surprised about when you could see increased number of people who has problems with each class mechanics. Red mage is not easy class to play as far as i have been told.

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And as people play longer, the % of competent players goes up. Experience helps you develop skill, after all. But that doesn't happen if we just decide that not knowing how to do anything and being carried through all content is fine. At some point if you want to do high end content, you need to learn how to do it. That process involves learning parties and wipes, but it leaves you a better player when you come out the other end.

(Remember: SE lets you kick people for "playstyle differences".)

My two cents. I came from Wow about 2 years ago to ff14 and i haven't looked back. FF works because its devs know to address imbalance issue not ignore them like blizzard does on a regular basis. Having said that, putting parser or dps check in game causes more problems than it solves. It will simply lead to a community as toxic as WoW or worse. FF does not need that. I have said this many times Yoshida needs to take little to no influence from WoW. It has had it's time in the sun; no more.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

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Rather than pick through here on my phone I have a few specific questions and points I'd appreciate you addressing based on your reply. This is of corse something I'd like answers to from any anti-parser proponent but you specifically.


Why is the time of competent players of so little value to you? In my example the PF I joined was essentially asking for a conpetent team to carry this new RDM through to get their sword. Several competent players joined,myself and my cohealer included. Why is our time and effort okay to waste by people joining a PF they clearly aren't ready for? I've helped many a learning party through Susano and Lakshmi and when it's stated it's a learning party I don't mine new and underperforming players. This was not (supposed to be) a learning party.

If everyone had your mentality of "lol its a game chill it doesnt matter" how would anyone reliably clear anything? You say you don't like to be called out for poor performance - I welcome it when it's based in facts. I look back at things I've run when I can and try to improve. I would rather be kicked from a party I'm holding back than be the cause of 7 othet people not achieving their goal assuming the goals and expectations were clear from the beginning.

You seem to imply towards the end of your post that the RDM amd host of my PF group were somehow unkind or impatient for being frustrated by clearly underskiled players joining their PF which explicitly stated they were requesting experienced players. If you call a cab to take you to work and get in only to have them take off in the wrong direction is it acceptable for them to respond by saying "lol its cool im taking the long way, you'll get there in 40 minutes" when you know it should only take 10? No, because the expectation that you're going straight to work is there. That is a reasonable situation to become frustrated at. This is no different. Why should that RDM have their time wasted?

Also on a semi-related note RDM is so heavily proc-based it's one of tge easiest DPS to perform decently. I don't know how your "RDM is hard" comment relates to any of this discussion frankly but I felt like you should know.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Rather than pick through here on my phone I have a few specific questions and points I'd appreciate you addressing based on your reply. This is of corse something I'd like answers to from any anti-parser proponent but you specifically.

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Since you said this I will chime in. I am not sure if people see me as "anti parser" as I see a lot of people misunderstanding me so it would not shock me if people viewed me that way. I am not exactly anti-parser but more so speaking out on the issues on having a public parser for those that can't see them.

Now the reason I am replying to you is because I think I can give you some insight with your questions. It is not that I think someone's time is more valued then someone else. My main issue is with parsers people's standards in what they expect from people raises too high. A good example is the skip soar meme ( though that has validity as i believe it was not a high bar of skill to hit that when your sacing a tank spot for a dps) But now you enable the "get kicked if you do not meet for 4k dps, you can't join unless ilevel 340" etc.

When someone is doing extremely low bar, wasn't your example of people dying repeatedly? so that is an easy kick right? if someone is doing 2k dps when low bar skill is 3k and most hitting 4k, I think it is easly to tell visually they are lagging behind and thus a parser is not needed anyway.

I think that is the problem putting in dps checks when you are not allowed to have a parser? I think SE has circular reasoning here and should be addressed. This means either 1. REMOVE ALL DPS CHECKS IN CONTENT NOT CURRENT. This means outside the newest extremes, and savage (like say this new branch of savage is for i370 gear or something?) so all "outdated content" should have them removed, if you are going to have the stance of no parsers. 2. Have some kind of self rating system (DPS too low for this content, you shouldn't join a public group for this run yet) would be a start. 3. some kind of in game tutorial gating, like you can't queue expert on your tank if you fail to pass some basic lv 70 tutorial. One of these or a combo of needs to really happen , and prob others I did not list, the skill gap is simply too large.

Another problem with parsers can enable is job exclusion. Oh we do not want SAMs joining our pf anymore 4.2+ because max DPS is too low.

As for the RDM comments, I think it has a reverse learning curve. It is "hard" to learn, but easy to master.

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Originally Posted by Grimr

My two cents. I came from Wow about 2 years ago to ff14 and i haven't looked back. FF works because its devs know to address imbalance issue not ignore them like blizzard does on a regular basis. Having said that, putting parser or dps check in game causes more problems than it solves. It will simply lead to a community as toxic as WoW or worse. FF does not need that. I have said this many times Yoshida needs to take little to no influence from WoW. It has had it's time in the sun; no more.

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I used to play wow, let me tell you, as someone who used recount, I was trash at later levels.

Like, extreme trash. Like if you took my WoW performance instead of FFXIV performance into Lacksmi I'd manage to kill everyone with her bossom somehow, even the people with Vril. I was this prove to messing it all up.

NOBODY cared though, because I stayed out of raids. Nobody gave a care in the dungeon because things still died. The only time I've ever been yelled at is in low level dungeons where some people expect world fists. Nobody cared in heroics though. And based on what I've been seeing for mythic, only Mythic 0 has this toxicity issue.

Also, I LOVE how we're using WoW every time about parsers like it's the only game ever to have anything related to it. All the ACT thing does we use in FF is take the info in your battle log and make it nice and neat. If I truly wanted to, I could go through the battle log and find out your exact dps, crit chance, direct hit chance, what hit you, etc. Why would I go through all that though with how messy it is if a system does it for me in real time? The info is ALREADY in the game.

If you don't believe me, get rid of your battle log. ACT won't work from there.

Hello everyone~. I just want to let everyone know that I will be taking the surveys down tonight at 11:59pm CST (9:59pm PST) so that I can get to work on compiling and analyzing all the data. ^^ I want to thank everyone again who participated in it!

Can I be pro-parser/anti-idiots who don't know how statistical data works? ...or would that cause the raiding scene to convulse so hard that spines begin to snap?

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

This is certainly a cyclic argument at this point but just because I feel like it hasn't been stated nearly enough... People who are anti-parser are you okay with people not pulling their own weight in clear/farm parties you're in?

Everyone is quick to pity the poor, underperforming part of the playerbase - how about a little sensitivity to the people who have sunk a lot of time and effort into this game? Why are their feelings and time considered less important?

I don't know if anyone's experience actually matters to you guys, it sorta seems like you're trolling at this point, but there are tons of situations like this all the time that would be better resolved with an ingame parser.

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Hi Moro! I'll answer your questions.

First, I am not okay with people not pulling their own weight in clear/farm parties. Everyone I group with is expected to come prepared for the content. That means, know your class, know the boss mechanics, have good equipment, and have your food.

Experienced players feelings are not less important. They are just not the only feelings involved in this discussion. Parsers affect every level of player from the most casual to the most committed. It's a hot topic for everyone.

Now, I know there are a lot of people out there who could use improvement in their game play to reach the 99% percentile. However, not everyone wants to put that much effort into the game. That should be accepted by the best players. Just like a casual player should know they have no business trying to get into cutting edge content. That's where the problems come into play.

Casuals (like me) don't want to be harassed for playing at a 70% percentile by someone demanding 99% percentile performance in non-hard content. It's like a professional baseball player coming upon a minor league team and raging on them because they don't play as well as he does. However, a minor league player has no business stepping onto the field of a major league tournament playoff game.

You say the situation could be resolved by parsers. I say the situation could be resolved by having individuals read the description of the PFs.

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Originally Posted by Grimr

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Anecdotal evidence does not constitute fact. You have no grounds to make the claim that the overall game would be worse off with official parsers, you cant use your personal experience as some kind of metric of proof for the majority.


As a example, I've been playing WoW for 12+ years and I can count on one hand the amount of times Ive seen people griefed over parsers. I would never even think about using my experience to represent the majority because everyones experiences differ, its not a valid claim to state that official parsers would have a big negative impact on the game because you dont know.

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Originally Posted by Khanscott

Can I be pro-parser/anti-idiots who don't know how statistical data works? ...or would that cause the raiding scene to convulse so hard that spines begin to snap?

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I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this statement. Care to clarify? Because if it's an insinuation that people misuse statistics, that occurs on both sides or every argument under the sun. If it's an insinuation that my survey will not be largely representative, then I am already aware. The OP has that disclaimer in there three times. ^^;; But clarification would be much appreciated.

A shame I came across the survey a day too late. Would you be willing to place a HB of the foundation question and the respective surveys at the tail of the OP, for anyone curious?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A shame I came across the survey a day too late. Would you be willing to place a HB of the foundation question and the respective surveys at the tail of the OP, for anyone curious?

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Hi Shurrikhan! I do plan to create a PDF document with all the survey results in it, charts, graphs, statistics and all. ^^ I would like to have it ready by Monday for the maintenance downtime, but I may not be able to because the senester has started, and I'm kind of surprised at the amount of homework I already have. If it is not out by Monday, then it will be up following the week of Housig release. That way people will have a chance to view it after all the hub-bub. ^^

I'm sorry you missed the survey. I would have been happy to have your input.

I put this in the DF story thread, but I wanted to get a little discussion on it here.

So I started leveling my DRG (haven't touched it since Gordias). Man I am bad. Like LITERALLY bad. I kept forgetting to hit my 4th weaponskills, I let BotD drop like a half a dozen times over the course of the 15 minute dungeon. I may or may not (i plead the 5th) have forgot to use Heavy Thrust before AOEing a few times.

Yet, I still managed nearly 1900 DPS across the entire dungeon (culling set to 60, so 1 continuous parse). My friend on WAR (has 0 idea how to play it well) did 880 DPS, WHM (sprout) did 850 DPS, and the BLM (sprout) did 820 DPS. All 4 people nearly identical gear all syncd.

Being fair - I'd consider my level of play in this instance average. It was not good, yet I still managed to do nearly 50% of the parties damage. Do people really think that is ok?

I also did my leveling roulette on DRG. Got copperbell . Sprout tank, and sprout healer, same WAR buddy, but he's on BRD this time (why does he have AOE at level 18 and I don't; this freakin game). The healer was level 50 something syncd down. The tank was vocal and asked how he was doing etc, and we let him know he was doing fine.

The healer was simply standing there. casting cure anytime someone dipped to 99% HP. I tolerated it (they're level 53 or something mind you) for about 5 minutes before saying "xxxx : feel free to throw stones out there if no one is in danger of dying. It'll help us get through it quicker and you can just let the natural out of combat regen heal us up after.

They didn't say a word, but they definitely listened. They were still 'panic' curing, i.e. when someone got to like 70% HP and mobs were like 3s from dying, but I figured once was enough.

So not all bad news, some good in there too :)

I don't think offical parsers will make anything any worse than it already is, yesterday I was harrassed by a dps for using cure1 when I meant to use cure II causing the tank to die ,which was totally my fault. The dps kept spamming a macro mocking me for it and at the end of the dungeon he pointed out the wipe again, there was no parse involved in that incident but still could count as harrassment . Since macros were abused here does that mean they should be removed? Obviously, no reporting someone for harrasment would be the better option (I didnt report that dps I Don't report anyone unless its really really really extreme) I chose to ignore that dps and finish the dungeon,but thats just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this statement. Care to clarify? Because if it's an insinuation that people misuse statistics, that occurs on both sides or every argument under the sun. If it's an insinuation that my survey will not be largely representative, then I am already aware. The OP has that disclaimer in there three times. ^^;; But clarification would be much appreciated.

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I think it is a dig at you, Hyomin. I hope I'm mistaken because the attack is certainly not warranted. :(

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to the results of your survey. But, don't slack on your homework to get it out.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Now, I know there are a lot of people out there who could use improvement in their game play to reach the 99% percentile. However, not everyone wants to put that much effort into the game. That should be accepted by the best players. Just like a casual player should know they have no business trying to get into cutting edge content. That's where the problems come into play.

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It's important to know what these numbers mean. 99th percentile means that 99% of the readings are below the stated number. If you use it to group players, by definition 99% of the playerbase is below the 99th percentile. Always. Even if the DPS difference is less than 1%. It's a relative ranking of where you are, but saying we want the entire playerbase to be at the 70th percentile is mathematically impossible. The thing we really want is to make the measured gap between the percentiles smaller, as it's quite large right now.

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Casuals (like me) don't want to be harassed for playing at a 70% percentile by someone demanding 99% percentile performance in non-hard content. It's like a professional baseball player coming upon a minor league team and raging on them because they don't play as well as he does. However, a minor league player has no business stepping onto the field of a major league tournament playoff game.

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Does this actually happen at a frequency above what could be explained by the average rate of people being jerks, though? I and my 50-60th percentile casual self have run stuff with other people in this thread (including Moro and HyoMinPark), and nobody's acted like that while they were putting up stratospheric numbers compared to mine. Nobody cared. We were clearing at a decent speed and having a good time. Outside of progression content, that's what the overwhelming majority wants, parser or no parser.

I did have a 30th percentile friend with us on a couple of those as well, and they've been able to use the FFLogs data to change some stuff around and got over 40th last time. While that's not earth shattering, they were pretty happy to make such a noticeable improvement. We'd have had no real way to do that without parser data. :)

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You say the situation could be resolved by parsers. I say the situation could be resolved by having individuals read the description of the PFs

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Really, the problem is that the gap between the percentiles in output is a chasm. It's HUGE. Narrowing that is difficult, but if you want it to matter less, you can't have one person doing triple the DPS of another in the same job. That's going to matter because it's such a huge difference.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

It's important to know what these numbers mean. 99th percentile means that 99% of the readings are below the stated number. If you use it to group players, by definition 99% of the playerbase is below the 99th percentile. Always. Even if the DPS difference is less than 1%. It's a relative ranking of where you are, but saying we want the entire playerbase to be at the 70th percentile is mathematically impossible. The thing we really want is to make the measured gap between the percentiles smaller, as it's quite large right now.

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I think this is an important distinction. There will always be a bottom 10% and there will always be a top 10% but as it stands at the moment the difference between those is so considerable that there are clearly people playing their jobs at their full potential and people playing their jobs by letting their cat lay on their keyboard.


There is nothing that can be done to bring down the top dps aside from nerfing the dps potential of a job which doesn't make anyone a better player but seems to be the stance SE has taken given some recent adjustments like the 4.2 WAR revamp.

Top tier WARs will still be doing the best dps a WAR is capable of but some simple things like a simplification of the burst window and a reduction in the importance of Storm's Eye means that people will have an easier time following the rotation but also that top tier WARs lose some personal dps.

Bringing down the top bar doesn't raise the bottom though, and the only way to raise that skill floor is for the average player to see they're doing something wrong. A parser in-game (even a personal one) could show someone that never using their melee combo on RDM is a huge dps loss or never using Heavy Thrust as a DRG is similarly detrimental.

Will there be people who still don't care? Of course. But Little Timmy (to borrrow Sebazy's hypothetical sprout) very well might care enough to improve if he knows he's doing something wrong. We will still have bad players but we would undoubtably have less of them.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Hi Moro! I'll answer your questions.

First, I am not okay with people not pulling their own weight in clear/farm parties. Everyone I group with is expected to come prepared for the content. That means, know your class, know the boss mechanics, have good equipment, and have your food.

Experienced players feelings are not less important. They are just not the only feelings involved in this discussion. Parsers affect every level of player from the most casual to the most committed. It's a hot topic for everyone.

Now, I know there are a lot of people out there who could use improvement in their game play to reach the 99% percentile. However, not everyone wants to put that much effort into the game. That should be accepted by the best players. Just like a casual player should know they have no business trying to get into cutting edge content. That's where the problems come into play.

Casuals (like me) don't want to be harassed for playing at a 70% percentile by someone demanding 99% percentile performance in non-hard content. It's like a professional baseball player coming upon a minor league team and raging on them because they don't play as well as he does. However, a minor league player has no business stepping onto the field of a major league tournament playoff game.

You say the situation could be resolved by parsers. I say the situation could be resolved by having individuals read the description of the PFs.

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Thank you Kacho! As usual your signature is adorable.

I appreciate the answers and first off I'd like to apologize if it seems like this could be aimed at anyone performing at the current 70th percentile. If you're doing anything like that first off you and I are right there together and second of all you have a base understanding of the classes you're playing and while you may not have mastered when to weave oGCDs or something you aren't a no-melee RDM or an Ice Mage.

Don't misunderatand, if you don't already parse I still think an integrated parser would help you even passively as it would help anyone with a basic amount of care about the players they're grouped with which I'm certain you have.

I think your understanding of how parsers should be used is ultimately very similar to mine. I have no desire to harrass someone about their lacking dps, even in a PF specifically stating something like "bring big **** dps" I don't think there is room for harassment over performance. Rather in an appropriate situation if a parser parser gave info someone could use to improve I would point it out to them. Unless it had some kind of effect on whether or not we're clearing in a reasonable time (no 45min Ala Mhigo runs pls) I wouldn't ever even vote someone out for not following that advice.

I'm sure there are people who would misuse this system were it implimented just as there are people who abuse the current system. Harrassment will never be tolerated by SE though and the potential for harassment should not mean that we don't give a feature a chance. You can harass someone in party chat but we aren't all communicating via pvp pre-made phrases after all.

I hope this makes you feel better in some way about what I posted. I would never condone harassment.

I think the big concern for me is that we simply have no way of knowing how many players keep their mouths shut and tolerate other players they meet who are showing in their parses with lower numbers because any mention of parsing is reportable.

Many people don't know the art of criticism, either. So, genuine attempts to help can degrade fast, parser or no. I think we all HAVE seen this.

So, it feels a bit of a circular argument to me when the counter is, "Well, have YOU seen any Parser related harassment?" When it's bannable. Most players aren't out to lose their accounts.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

I think the big concern for me is that we simply have no way of knowing how many players keep their mouths shut and tolerate other players they meet who are showing in their parses with lower numbers because any mention of parsing is reportable.

Many people don't know the art of criticism, either. So, genuine attempts to help can degrade fast, parser or no. I think we all HAVE seen this.

So, it feels a bit of a circular argument to me when the counter is, "Well, have YOU seen any Parser related harassment?" When it's bannable. Most players aren't out to lose their accounts.

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Yes. But you get other forms of it that are largely invisible, like people being kicked for no apparent reason. I've had that happen to me, and it's not great.

So we have this weird situation where if we have player X who is not using a good rotation:
1. Me saying "X, I see your DPS is low because you're not using ability Z after combo Y" is a bannable offense.
2. Me in Discord saying "that X guy is doing lousy DPS, lets kick him" and then doing a silent group vote kick is perfectly allowed because different play styles.

Is that really better?

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Me in Discord saying "that X guy is doing lousy DPS, lets kick him" and then doing a silent group vote kick is perfectly allowed because different play styles.

Is that really better?

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But you're assuming people are going to not do this anyways if we had an official parser. People have no obligation to mentor others in the situations where you'd get kicked for doing low DPS, and if anything they might get angrier because now there is no excuse; you have a parser, how can you not know?

Just today i had two new players in trial roulette. One was menagerie; the healer was new, and was so overwhelmed they didnt use healer lb3 to get everyone up before a wipe. We told him to use it in chat, but after he said he was so overwhlemed he didn't use it. My co tank left over that. One was susano hard, and the healer was bad (possible jump potion user), and the nin was goign on and on about how he wasted people's time, to the point we had to kick him. I mean, I winced knowing that healer was listening to him. I'm not sure people will be kind to people with low dps with legal parsing, where at least they are silent under threat.

Like, I've had and seen people just being cruel to others in Limsa. A lot of this is on whether you trust people to act well when the threats are gone. I don't know if they will act in the way you expect.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

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But why would harrassment become okay if parsers were legal?

If someone is rude enough to you that it warrants reporting them they should be reported for the bad thing they did (harrassing you) not the neutral thing (parsing)... Parsing by it's self is never a net negative and the negative behavior caused by parsing will still be reportable. If you report someone for parsing right now you are, in my opinion, using a cop-out. If that cop-out were removed and we had to judge people by the way they handled info gained from parsing instead of just for the act it's self I don't see how that could be a bad thing. Good people could use it to offer help and rude people could get reported for being rude. Stop hamstringging the people who only want to use this 'power' for good.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

But why would harrassment become okay if parsers were legal?.

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This is assuming people are getting banned for harassment, and not that the real reason is admitting to parser use. I don't think the examples I gave are ban worthy, nor would anyone report the person for doing them. It's not ban worthy to kick someone and say "your dps sucks, git gud scrub" even though it's rude. The parser use is probably the teeth that gets people bitten. It's just, well, what good is it even? No one is going to do anything good in an instance with a parser; doign good dps is just doing your job. Its going to be used mostly for people failing, and with friends or statics it can be ok, but dear god, with randoms...

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

This is assuming people are getting banned for harassment, and not that the real reason is admitting to parser use. I don't think the examples I gave are ban worthy, nor would anyone report the person for doing them. It's not ban worthy to kick someone and say "your dps sucks, git gud scrub" even though it's rude. The parser use is probably the teeth that gets people bitten. It's just, well, what good is it even? No one is going to do anything good in an instance with a parser; doign good dps is just doing your job. Its going to be used mostly for people failing, and with friends or statics it can be ok, but dear god, with randoms...

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Is it any better they get kicked silently or the entire group abruptly disbands, thus the person has no idea what they're doing wrong? I firmly believe many players have no idea their DPS is that low. Sure, rude remarks will fly, but it's up to the individual person to filter that out. That rude "git gud scrub" person will remain rude without a parser. They'll just omit the fact they're parsing. Look no further than your own examples. No ACT yet rude people remained rude. Allowing parsers won't suddenly upswing the amount of jerk people. Granted, I'll admit I don't find being told "your DPS sucks" that big of a deal, assuming it's in the appropriate content.

Now if the person doesn't care, well, they have no business joining a party and wasting people's time.

As for the harassment part. Perhaps SE should work on actually moderating better if that's the case. Considering people have received warnings for shouting "fuck" in say chat, I think the GMs could manage.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

But you're assuming people are going to not do this anyways if we had an official parser. People have no obligation to mentor others in the situations where you'd get kicked for doing low DPS, and if anything they might get angrier because now there is no excuse; you have a parser, how can you not know?

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There's lots of assumptions here in general. But no, I was asking why kicking someone with no explanation whatsoever is better than telling them they have poor DPS. At least in the latter case they have some indication as to what's going on. Being kicked without a word sucks. Been there, done that, wouldn't do it to anyone. :( You wind up not knowing what you did wrong. I was a newbie tank at the time and it was really confidence crushing. Fortunately I was an experienced player and knew where to go to ask for advice, because clearly I was doing *something* wrong.

But by SE's rules, that is considered okay while telling them they have low DPS is not. That's not a stance I agree with, having been on the wrong end of the "allowed" behavior.

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Just today i had two new players in trial roulette. One was menagerie; the healer was new, and was so overwhelmed they didnt use healer lb3 to get everyone up before a wipe. We told him to use it in chat, but after he said he was so overwhlemed he didn't use it. My co tank left over that. One was susano hard, and the healer was bad (possible jump potion user), and the nin was goign on and on about how he wasted people's time, to the point we had to kick him. I mean, I winced knowing that healer was listening to him. I'm not sure people will be kind to people with low dps with legal parsing, where at least they are silent under threat.

Like, I've had and seen people just being cruel to others in Limsa. A lot of this is on whether you trust people to act well when the threats are gone. I don't know if they will act in the way you expect.

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That's rough. :( We just had a lousy World of Darkness Alliance roulette, with two wipes on the first boss. Some people bailed after that and the finger pointing got started, but a couple of us decided to try and explain what to do for everyone else since clearly there were issues there. It wasn't a pretty run, but we did get it done with no more wipes. None of those finger pointers were talking about DPS, so it's not like the ban on parser talk prevents that sort of behavior.

Community standards come down to the community itself, in the end. If we don't want finger pointing harassment (parser related or the "stop turning the boss/standing in X/not using Eusna fast enough/etc" variety) to be a thing, we need to both ruthlessly oppose it whenever it pops up, and also set a better example. That falls on everyone. It's done at a smaller scale in FCs and statics all time, so it can be done on a wider scale too. Would it work out that way? I have no idea. But I don't think the "it's all fine now and would go to hell if parsers came about" predictions are accurate.

It's good to be cautious, but hiding information that's so vital to progression except from those who know how to get it anyway isn't a great solution.

(In my WoW guild, we had a real problem with lack of dispels. One time I decided to fix it by running a contest where by if anyone could beat me on dispels on a fight that was heavily dependent on them, I'd pay for their flasks for the next raid. Fortunatley I was an elixir alchemist, because that got real expensive...)

Legalizing parsers will open the door for parser based discussions.

I mean, what are we even trying to argue about at this point?

Will people be jerks about parsers? Absolutely. We all meet jerks in the game who harass players for "differing playstyles," and all that will change is parsers will be something jerks to talk about. No matter how useful parsers can be. Jerks will be jerks.

So, are we willing to risk giving jerk players ammo? Are we willing to risk the change in community dynamic that would come from parsers being legal?

I'm not!

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

So, are we willing to risk giving jerk players ammo? Are we willing to risk the change in community dynamic that would come from parsers being legal?
I'm not!

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You have to explain to me how the community will change with a parser being legal. Is it something about if a parser being legal would make people get less groups for content, being locked out? Like if they aren't included because they play bad? Is that it? I would like to know this.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

So, are we willing to risk giving jerk players ammo? Are we willing to risk the change in community dynamic that would come from parsers being legal?

I'm not!

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You said yourself that jerks will be jerks without parsing. There are jerks who already parse. There are jerks who just want something to be angry about, whether they're parsing or not. There are jerks who can't parse even if they wanted to since they play on the PS4. None of them need "ammo"; if they're looking for something to harass with, they'll use anything at their disposal- DPS numbers are just one of many available tools. I believe that making parsing legit would only increase the instances of people's numbers getting used to sling mud, not the actual rate at which people get harassed.

I want parsers to be legal so I can offer to share people's numbers in public EX/Savage runs without fear of being banned. I never share everyone's, only those who ask. I use it to keep track of who I should buff with damage cards as AST and my own performance so I can improve. I can say with confidence that I wouldn't suddenly become a bully because I could admit to parsing in game without fear of retribution. Why deny a useful tool because some scummy people abuse it? Step up enforcement for bullying and harassment and legitimize constructive criticism and self-improvement instead.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

So, are we willing to risk giving jerk players ammo? Are we willing to risk the change in community dynamic that would come from parsers being legal?

I'm not!

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I am, 100%.

This is a situation where risk doesn't outweigh reward and I say that as a casual player starting to get involved with more serious content aka the demographic that is almost assuredly going to catch the biggest amount of 'jerks being jerks' if parsing were legalized much less implimented ingame.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this statement. Care to clarify? Because if it's an insinuation that people misuse statistics, that occurs on both sides or every argument under the sun. If it's an insinuation that my survey will not be largely representative, then I am already aware. The OP has that disclaimer in there three times. ^^;; But clarification would be much appreciated.

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Nothing to do with your survey. My grievances lies solely with raiders that have little to no clue as to what a percentile even is, yet use them as a basis for judgment. I've learned that actually finding someone in the endgame crowd that actually knows to read the favored parsing website's (not the site's name, mods can find another chew toy lol) datasheets is like finding a unicorn.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Legalizing parsers will open the door for parser based discussions.

I mean, what are we even trying to argue about at this point?

Will people be jerks about parsers? Absolutely. We all meet jerks in the game who harass players for "differing playstyles," and all that will change is parsers will be something jerks to talk about. No matter how useful parsers can be. Jerks will be jerks.

So, are we willing to risk giving jerk players ammo? Are we willing to risk the change in community dynamic that would come from parsers being legal?

I'm not!

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There will be (and already are) jerks, parsers or not.

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Originally Posted by Khanscott

Nothing to do with your survey. My grievances lies solely with raiders that have little to no clue as to what a percentile even is, yet use them as a basis for judgment. I've learned that actually finding someone in the endgame crowd that actually knows to read the favored parsing website's (not the site's name, mods can find another chew toy lol) datasheets is like finding a unicorn.

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I believe the raiders call those types of people "casuals." At least, the raiders I know do.

I'd like to say to the OP I used the "indifferent" survey though it really doesn't express my opinion on the matter very well at all.

First I should make it known that I believe that games should include all the tools you need to succeed within the game itself. I don't have a problem with things like video guides but rather content that is so obtuse that one has to resort to a guide. In general this isn't what FFXIV is - you can go blind into most content with the reasonable chance of success. The type of content that you are less likely to go into blind is also the type of content most players are more likely to do with a static or with FC/friends.

Because I hold this particular view I have no issue with parsers in high end content (whether purely numerical or not). I believe if you are doing duties found in the high end duty finder then you should have a good idea of what you are getting into already. I also wouldn't be against this content being completely walled off until you have successfully defeated the dummy for the duty. While it doesn't guarantee performance under pressure it does at least weed out those who don't know their rotation.

I am however firmly against parsers in other content, but I do think there needs to be something in place (more than just the open world training dummies) that can help players improve their skills. DPS is the one role where the feedback in this game is non existent. Tank and healer failures are very public - and while they may not necessarily be a player skill issue, SE does allow the examination of gear ingame. (Minimum ilvls for lvlling dungeons and a rethink of how ilvl is calculated as the weapon should be "worth" more is another discussion.) DPS need something to tell them when they are doing a good job or when they need to try harder and ideally I think it should be something the rest of the team can't see. Missing combos, missing skills that have procced - a hint could pop up to tell them.

The issue with numerical parsers, particularly in lvlling content, is that some players who use them don't understand them, some players who use them don't understand what numbers are reasonable for the content they are in, some players who use them focus so hard on the numbers and fail to recognise when other players are contributing to their number even when they might have low DPS. In short, players fail to recognise that in non high-end content it is rarely a single individual who makes the team fail. Granted bad tanks and bad healers can make the group fail faster or more spectacularly but a single weak link can be compensated for by good players. Naturally this leads to players being carried - without any feedback. A number given to them isn't going to help them. Many players feel they shouldn't have to get a PhD in online research in order to play their job reasonably - and for lvlling and story content I don't feel this is unreasonable. The game needs to be giving hints, feedback, and additional training.

Let me re-iterate, high end content is another matter. If you walk into that without your research done, expecting to not be judge and assigned a number I have to ask whether you really want to be there.

To make the whole issue more complicated is the moderation or lack there of in the game. Right now parsers are on a don't ask don't tell basis. That is if you admit to using one to kick someone SE can punish you. It's a straight forward issue, be even with such a straight forward rule set there is still inconsistency in moderation. Some players get hit with a temp bad, others don't. Inconsistency between individual moderators is not a new thing, it happens in ever MMO - but that inconsistency gets worse when you say "ok you can parser but you can't kick or abuse". How do I know - because another MMO I play recently decided that parsers were ok, catch 22 parsers that inspected gear were not ok (the game has no gear inspection tools). Frankly I think this is silly myself if you say parsers are ok, gear inspection should be ok too. Needless to say players are getting bans for running gear inspection when they are merely working backwards from the parsers to figure out the gear must be the reason for the lower numbers.

SE's moderation team already have a not so great record in my eyes because back when I was running around as a dark skinned sun seeker I had a couple of runs with players that called my character n b the whole run. (No I'm not going to expand on that.) The players were reported, SE's response was blacklist them. And this is when the EULA explicitly says players shouldn't be using racist language. So what do you think will happen when someone says "omg your dps sucks go kill yourself" will they get banned? What about "omg your dps sucks uninstall"? Both are unpleasant in their own way. How will a new player take that? Will they lose subs?

When/If they allow parsers they are giving permission for players to comment on it - a lot of players will simply remain silent or be polite about it but the ones who will be rude will be very vocal safe in the knowledge that the company won't be too harsh in their punishment, if they get punished at all.

To finish it all off let me tell you about my daily levelling roulette the other day. I made an alt to experience the road to 60 insanity (and it is crazy fast) and I've been enjoying playing on her. I jump into lvlling roulette as a dps - a lvl26 rogue. I waited 47mins and load into Ifrit. I load in with a lvl60 PLD, a lvl60 DRG, and a lvl39 AST. Things went "bad" immediately. The PLD didn't turn the boss away from the centre, forcing everyone to dance around to his rear. The PLD couldn't keep threat, it was bouncing between me and the AST. The AST and I were the only ones on the nail, and we wiped. Then the insanity starts - apparently all the mess up was my fault. I was autoing I wasn't using trick attack (hint you can't really since no suiton), I didn't use any murdas (you also can't downlvlled to 20). The fact that the PLD couldn't use the basic threat combo on PLD, no that wasn't the problem the problem was the rogue who had two attack skills and wasn't doing proper raid dmg. The abuse continued all the way to the end of the instance. The only reason I stayed was because I didn't fancy another 47 minute wait. Now imagine for an instance that I wasn't a player who knew what my character could do at those lvls or what dps was reasonable for my character in that instance, or what should be expected of a tank or healer or even the other dps. Imagine that was my first run - I've waited nearly an hour to get in, I can't progress my story without doing this, I probably would have copped abuse from the AST for simply watching the cutscene. Do you honestly think a new player wouldn't seriously consider unsubbing?

Rude, bad players will always be rude and bad. We don't need to give them permission to be that and we don't need to muddy the waters of support and moderation by allowing parsers in lvlling content. Yes something is needed to give feedback and help players - particularly dps - improve. But if SE's response to individuals using racist language is just to blacklist do you honestly think they will do anything to those abuse players based on poor parser numbers? Yes SE needs to invest in their support and moderation teams, yes they need to ensure that consistent decisions are made, but the solution to all these things is not simple and it's not quick. The system, as it stands now, would not really survive the permission to use parsers in lvlling content. One might argue that permission to use parsers in high end content is much the same as giving permission to use them in lvlling content. However I believe external parsers should remain "illegal" and that SE should implement separate solutions for high end duties and for lvlling.

*I'm having a bad FM day. If I missed anything, I apologize in advance.*

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Thank you Kacho! As usual your signature is adorable.

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Thank you! I like to bring a smile to people's faces with my signatures.

Off top: "Celebrate" is a test of the intended look of my soon to be released Kacho Nacho the Web Comic reboot.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I appreciate the answers and first off I'd like to apologize if it seems like this could be aimed at anyone performing at the current 70th percentile. If you're doing anything like that first off you and I are right there together and second of all you have a base understanding of the classes you're playing and while you may not have mastered when to weave oGCDs or something you aren't a no-melee RDM or an Ice Mage.

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*nods* I did kind of feel like it was an attack at first. You see, I used to raid in another game; but, life threw me a curve, and I am now more casual than anything else. So, I'm a bit sensitive sometimes over my performance. Now, I threw out 70% because that's a typical goal of mine but really my performance is likely in the average range.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Don't misunderstand, if you don't already parse I still think an integrated parser would help you even passively as it would help anyone with a basic amount of care about the players they're grouped with which I'm certain you have.

I think your understanding of how parsers should be used is ultimately very similar to mine. I have no desire to harass someone about their lacking dps, even in a PF specifically stating something like "bring big **** dps" I don't think there is room for harassment over performance. Rather in an appropriate situation if a parser parser gave info someone could use to improve I would point it out to them. Unless it had some kind of effect on whether or not we're clearing in a reasonable time (no 45min Ala Mhigo runs pls) I wouldn't ever even vote someone out for not following that advice.

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Yeah, I have no desire to harass anyone either, and I agree, parsers can be a wonderful tool for self-improvement. Yet, I can't help but think of all the times when I observed people refusing to do key mechanics because it would hurt their precious dps. Or the times I have observed some really ugly exchanges between people fighting for the first thru third rankings of top damage dealers. People can be such... poop heads.

*sigh*

It all comes down to a simple question. Would the implementation of parsers really help players improve their game play or would it lead to more clashes between players due to their innately human competitive natures?

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I'm sure there are people who would misuse this system were it implemented just as there are people who abuse the current system. Harassment will never be tolerated by SE though and the potential for harassment should not mean that we don't give a feature a chance. You can harass someone in party chat but we aren't all communicating via pvp pre-made phrases after all.

I hope this makes you feel better in some way about what I posted. I would never condone harassment.

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It did! :D

/hug

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Off top: "Celebrate" is a test of the intended look of my soon to be released Kacho Nacho the Web Comic reboot.

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I look forward to it! I'm a sucker for media from/about this game as (imo) it translates very well. Bonus points considering I'm sure it's going to be sweet enough to give me tooth problems.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

*nods* I did kind of feel like it was an attack at first. You see, I used to raid in another game; but, life threw me a curve, and I am now more casual than anything else. So, I'm a bit sensitive sometimes over my performance. Now, I threw out 70% because that's a typical goal of mine but really my performance is likely in the average range.

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For people who aren't Kacho... you can probably ignore this bit? More personal/less relevant.

Even though I've said it I apologize again. I definitely should have more specificity in any of my posts that become.... ahem... more passionate I suppose? lol

Short version I know that I'm a pretty aggressive/assertive person even in text. Not to bring too much of my irl business into things but I'm a woman in my 20's doing a project management consulting job typiclly held by an older man. My day-to-day life sort of requires I constantly over-assert myself or I'm just never taken seriously. I'm sure this bleeds over into my leisure time. In person this is mitigated by the fact that I look like I'm not old enough to drink so it sort of takes that level of... umpf? To keep from my peers/clients from dismissing my ideas before considering them.

That being said the percentage here that you fall into is somewhat irrelavent because you have a goal for improvmemt and are trying. If you were running something and someone offered you advice about your class I can't imagine you responding with "stfu go fly a kite you dont pay my sub" whether a parser backed up what was being said or not. You'd likely look at what was said, respond politely and perhaps give it a try if you thought it might hold some merit because you're a reasonable person.

I also can't imagine you joining content in which you'd find yourself quickly outside your comfort zone without perhaps making a learning party/expressing to the people you're running with that this thing might be a stretch for you.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Yeah, I have no desire to harass anyone either, and I agree, parsers can be a wonderful tool for self-improvement. Yet, I can't help but think of all the times when I observed people refusing to do key mechanics because it would hurt their precious dps. Or the times I have observed some really ugly exchanges between people fighting for the first thru third rankings of top damage dealers. People can be such... poop heads.

*sigh*

It all comes down to a simple question. Would the implementation of parsers really help players improve their game play or would it lead to more clashes between players due to their innately human competitive natures?

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Ultimately this is the question we're at we're just coming to different answers. Ironically I think I'm having a bit more faith in the good of the playerbase than you are and that's okay but it does mean that I think we're never going to be able to agree on this 100% without it being implimented and one of us being correct.

This isn't a copout, I'm sure what you've seen has been some real poop-head-ish behavior, it's just that I think those people are enough of a minority that the good a parser would do will outpace the bad those guys might spread by a long shot.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

It did! :D

/hug

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/hug

I hope you don't mind reading all this rant. I was going to just respond on discord if I could but I realized I didn't have you on there. If you've got one and I haven't scared you off feel free to add me, name is in my signature. Also I know you have a million offers but if you ever need someone to run anything with I'm here and happy to!

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Originally Posted by Kazgrel

There will be (and already are) jerks, parsers or not.

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Yes. I literally said exactly that. So let me try again.

I really do think allowing parser discussions and use would open the gates for people to be jerks in ways they weren't before.

I do firmly believe parser use will increase hostility, because them being a bannable offense is going to, by the very nature of being a *bannable* offense, stop players from talking about parses.

I'm just saying that without knowing how many players currently hold their tongues to protect themselves, we simply can't know how different (positively or negatively) the landscape of FFXIV would be after allowing parsers.

And, I'm not willing to open that floodgate.

Hello Hyomin,

Did you get interesting data from the polls ?

Looking forward to seeing the results and thank you for making this !