~Poll~ Longer fights <Do you want it?>

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

There's different formats to endgame. Raiding, boss fighting. And yeah, while every boss is different, the basis of the idea is the same.

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Why should stuff be based off endgame? Endgame is not and should not be the main focus for any video game EVER!~ That's bad game design. Me, I like everything 100xs more that isn't endgame.

Actually, you're wrong, dead wrong.

Endgame is the focus of MMOs. It is the eventuality that everyone will level, they will be at max level. And if you do not have the proper sustinence to maintain players after you beat the game and your primary story is over, then you lose those players.

The way you would make the game in contrast would be SWTOR, and we've already witnessed the fruits of that approach. The lack of endgame murdered the base there. The story was great, the journey on the way up was properly paced and diverse, but the endgame was completely lacking.

You build an alternate EXP system that is built to simulate an endgame environment, and what you have is an engaging gameplay throughout, that accustoms the player to the pacing that will take over once the story is over. You feel familiar instead of feeling alienated by those of the 'hardcore' that rushed the level system, and you enjoy your course up.

You can have an interesting story and good feeling grind up, but ultimately it will be endgame and endgame goals that will sustain or lose you depending on how well it is designed. Creating content that prepares you for it is also creating content that will help make the journey up more fulfilling and enjoyable - without making content that ultimately lies dead and forgotten once the leveling scales tip towards the level cap - which is an eventuality.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

That's not what I said, but I'm not wrong, I'm right. Just as with buffs, this game has been favoring more potent but shorter duration effects. An enfeeble doesn't have to last a minute or two to have its effect. 15-20 seconds is plenty.

We're never going to see eye to eye here. You don't seem to understand. I'm not advocating for fights to be as short as humanly possible. I'm advocating for combat to be more polished- this means making combat better in its technical aspects, not saying "Fights must last at least X seconds or they are unfun." There is no set duration of time required to make a fight fun or interesting. <30 second fights can be fun, and >30 second fights can be unfun- How much fun a fight is does not necessarily depend on length. Period, end of story.

I feel like part of the reason you want an arbitrary minimum time for a fight is to slow down XPing- If they increased the average time a fight takes, I would demand more EXP per fight to compensate.

Endgame battles are already of reasonable length. Thus this really only concerns EXP grinding, and frankly, I'd rather my EXP grinding be over as quickly as possible, because that's not the part of the game I enjoy the most.

That's like saying if I like speed, why not play a racing game instead of a puzzle game? The answer is because it's the kind of game I like. Not every game in the same genre is the same. I hate tournament fighters. Your comment is probably one of the stupidest I've ever read in my life. Funny thing though, fighting games are an example of combat that is often fast yet intricate. But that alone doesn't make the game for me. I like the story, the epic bosses, the exploration, cooperating with others, etc. of MMOs- street fighter and mortal kombat don't have that. Grinding is the only thing I don't like.

As I've said before, making fights longer doesn't make them automatically more interesting. Good combat mechanics are what make a fight interesting. Forcing the fight to last a certain amount of time doesn't achieve that.

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maaan, must really suck to be you. Every other rpg game I play consists of fights that are longer than 10 seconds. Heck even FPS have longer fights.

Also, not going to go back and quote other things but seems like your main focus of your argument is "I feel like part of the reason you want an arbitrary minimum time for a fight is to slow down XPing- If they increased the average time a fight takes, I would demand more EXP per fight to compensate."

As I stated and others have stated throughout this thread, exp would be adjusted. I said "The longer fights would have adjusted exp for em as well. So, the whole "Get less exp" argument is out of the window as well."

So don't even bring that up, EVER!

"An enfeeble doesn't have to last a minute or two to have its effect. 15-20 seconds is plenty."

What mob even lasts for 15-20 seconds, you sir are crazy. Any debuff(enfeeble) spells are pointless in this current build.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Actually, you're wrong, dead wrong.

Endgame is the focus of MMOs. It is the eventuality that everyone will level, they will be at max level. And if you do not have the proper sustinence to maintain players after you beat the game and your primary story is over, then you lose those players.

The way you would make the game in contrast would be SWTOR, and we've already witnessed the fruits of that approach. The lack of endgame murdered the base there. The story was great, the journey on the way up was properly paced and diverse, but the endgame was completely lacking.

You build an alternate EXP system that is built to simulate an endgame environment, and what you have is an engaging gameplay throughout, that accustoms the player to the pacing that will take over once the story is over. You feel familiar instead of feeling alienated by those of the 'hardcore' that rushed the level system, and you enjoy your course up.

You can have an interesting story and good feeling grind up, but ultimately it will be endgame and endgame goals that will sustain or lose you depending on how well it is designed. Creating content that prepares you for it is also creating content that will help make the journey up more fulfilling and enjoyable - without making content that ultimately lies dead and forgotten once the leveling scales tip towards the level cap - which is an eventuality.

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Ya, look how every other mmo is turning out. BAD.

I played ffxi for 9 years and hardly did any end game.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

maaan, must really suck to be you. Every other rpg game I play consists of fights that are longer than 10 seconds. Heck even FPS have longer fights.

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Yet it only takes one good bullet to the head in an FPS to kill someone.

I think you're misunderstanding the concept here. The idea is that fodder mobs should remain fodder mobs. That means SOME monsters should be dead inside 10 seconds. Not all of them, which is the problem the game is really suffering. Your policy is the opposite extreme to the problem, which you are saying "NO" monsters should be dead inside 10 seconds, which would cause the same problem on the opposite vien.

There should be balance between weaker and stronger monsters. The end result is longer fights, sure, but the emphasis is that the fights have more depth to them rather than just being harder for the sake of higher HP pools across the board.

Roiken, you suffer from not having any depth in your conversation. You will flood the boards with haphazard ideas without substance and therefore even if the intended meaning you convey is one that's agreeable, because you leave yourself so ambiguous, people disagree with your expression, and that becomes the focus of the conversation, rather than the goal.

As a word of advice, really sit down and take the time to think your complaints and ideas through before you express them. I'm not sure you understand that your meaning isn't getting across and you become so focused on the way you say things that you become inflexible in how to achieve your goals, and the same goes for the opponents of your threads.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Yet it only takes one good bullet to the head in an FPS to kill someone.

I think you're misunderstanding the concept here. The idea is that fodder mobs should remain fodder mobs. That means SOME monsters should be dead inside 10 seconds. Not all of them, which is the problem the game is really suffering. Your policy is the opposite extreme to the problem, which you are saying "NO" monsters should be dead inside 10 seconds, which would cause the same problem on the opposite vien.

There should be balance between weaker and stronger monsters. The end result is longer fights, sure, but the emphasis is that the fights have more depth to them rather than just being harder for the sake of higher HP pools across the board.

Roiken, you suffer from not having any depth in your conversation. You will flood the boards with haphazard ideas without substance and therefore even if the intended meaning you convey is one that's agreeable, because you leave yourself so ambiguous, people disagree with your expression, and that becomes the focus of the conversation, rather than the goal.

As a word of advice, really sit down and take the time to think your complaints and ideas through before you express them. I'm not sure you understand that your meaning isn't getting across and you become so focused on the way you say things that you become inflexible in how to achieve your goals, and the same goes for the opponents of your threads.

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Weaker mob takes a few minutes to kill, stronger mob takes 20 mins to kill, I still don't see the point you are trying to make. Ya, mobs should take a few seconds to kill when they are level 1~

Also babe, people agree with me all the time.

Just look how many people are not agreeing with you. LOL

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Ya, look how every other mmo is turning out. BAD.

I played ffxi for 9 years and hardly did any end game.

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If you touched Besiged, you touched endgame.

If you did any of the Avatar fights, you touched endgame, believe it or not.

Any Assaults at all, you touched endgame.

FFXI was riddled with endgame that was hidden under the guise of something else. But more importantly, FFXI had a badly designed endgame. I played FFXI as long as you do, and I too 'hardly touched endgame' but guess what? We were a vast minority, and a lot of the content we did enjoy repeatedly, was very endgame orientated. Beseiged and Campaign were active variants of Dynamis without sleep control. Storyline Boss fights were very similar in comparison to their endgame and __NM counterparts.

But the majority of the players in the game? Sustained by endgame. The markets the fields the playing. You stuck around because you enjoyed the timesink element, which was an element the majority was complaining about continually (and if you pay attention, they still are complaining about it.)

You cant use FFXI as a template for a sucessful MMO anymore, even that template had to change with time, and all these MMO's that you say are failing, they failed because most of them lacked the substantial endgame experience the players were looking for. Most the endgame players have experienced in MMOs these days has been little more than grind an fluff. Even our Ifrit and Garuda fights have been far more entertaining and challenging than some of these high end encounters other MMOs have been pushing through.

That's not to say neglect other content, Roiken, you mistake me. The concept is that Endgame becomes the sustaining element in the game for those who've already leveled. Things like Campaign, Besieged, all those lovely little distractions, they're actually a part of 'end game'. They are a part of the things you do after the leveling is over. If anything, FFXIV can use more of that system.

It doesn't have to be hardcore, but it dose have to exist, and substantially.

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Weaker mob takes a few minutes to kill, stronger mob takes 20 mins to kill, I still don't see the point you are trying to make. Ya, mobs should take a few seconds to kill when they are level 1~

Also babe, people agree with me all the time.

Just look how many people are not agreeing with you. LOL

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Don't call me babe. I'm older than you and way out of your league.

I'm also male.

And people disagree with me all the time because I play the devil's advocate all the time. Disagreeing with people is intentional as it tests the integrity of their argument.

Something you lack, by the way.

20 minutes is a Boss Fight. 1 Minute is an Encounter. An encounter can range between one moderately tough monster to several fodder mobs that each die in 10 seconds or any variance in-between.

Point being, even some level 50 monsters should die in short order.

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Also babe, people agree with me all the time.

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Agree? there are times like this thread in which alot of people agree with this idea.

The other 99% of your Threads= :/ why?

and the Phrase "All the time", nobody agrees with anyone 100% of the time...

Except Maybe Reinheart, because he likes Subligars! :D

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Except Maybe Reinheart, because he likes Subligars!

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Who doesn't like subligars?

Seriously, those who hate subligars, aren't seeing them being worn by the right person.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Agree? there are times like this thread in which alot of people agree with this idea.

The other 99% of your Threads= :/ why?

and the Phrase "All the time", nobody agrees with anyone 100% of the time...

Except Maybe Reinheart, because he likes Subligars! :D

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People agree with me 100% of the time, it's fact. People does not = 100+ people.....

@Cist

Pretty sure you are not way older than I. K babe.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

People agree with me 100% of the time, it's fact.

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Your full of yourself, your taking this thread that has 312 likes ( inlcudes the like from me) and its getting to your head.

Take a look back at all your other threads for a moment a reflect... Meditate even... aside from this 1 thread not sure there's another thread that's like this thread with this many likes in the "yes" Column.

Rokien, how you've managed to get this far without a ban is beyond me. But as you're not interested in a constructive behavior, perhaps we can get a moderator to lock this thread too, as it's run its course.

Then we can go for a 100% lock rate of the last flood of threads you spit into the forums.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

@Hyrist

Pretty sure you are not way older than I.

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Maturity wise, you might as well be four. But thanks for admitting by omission I'm out of your league.

Anyways, dragons dogma is a good example of how fights should be.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Anyways, dragons dogma is a good example of how fights should be.

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With normal mobs taking literal seconds to kill? Even with pawns almost all normal monsters go down nearly instantly. The boss fights take a bit longer sure but FFXIV's boss fights are just as long, if not longer. The only long boss fights in Dragon's Dogma are the final boss and the Ur-Dragon.

Anyway, we all know Rokien is a troll. No point in trying to actually reason with him. This should be very apparent judging by his last few statements in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Anyways, dragons dogma is a good example of how fights should be.

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Isn't Dragon's Dogma a free-aim action RPG? You figure someone would have made an MMO like that by now...

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Originally Posted by Arcell

With normal mobs taking literal seconds to kill? Even with pawns almost all normal monsters go down nearly instantly. The boss fights take a bit longer sure but FFXIV's boss fights are just as long, if not longer. The only long boss fights in Dragon's Dogma are the final boss and the Ur-Dragon.

Anyway, we all know Rokien is a troll. No point in trying to actually reason with him. This should be very apparent judging by his last few statements in this thread.

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Sorry I should have posted this in the faceroll thread. It pertains more to that than longer fight thread.

The fights should be a bit longer. Leveling speed isn't an issue any any MMO, the biggest issue in FFXIV is the lack of anything to do between level 1-49 which is what is hurting the game.

I'd rather level slower if I had more stuff to do. The biggest complaint about both FFXI in the past and FFXIV right now is that there is nothing to do between level 1 and the level caps that make you feel rewarded, but even FFXI had BCNMs we have what... toto-rak which is a joke of a dungeon at best.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I want to hear your ideal system for leveling up in parties. Start to finish.

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By no means is this a perfect example of how exp party battles should be but I'll give it a go at saying how I feel a proper battle should pan out for exp parties looking for optimal experience.

1. Have a full party with the basics Tank/Healer/DD
2. Look for monsters 5-7 levels higher than you are for optimal experience.
3. Linking monsters of the same race/alliance is a real danger so avoiding sight/sound/scent links is crucial.

10-15 seconds
One of the DD's can be designated as puller who will tag the monster that the party will be fighting in a safer location than in the middle of the monsters spawn area (If you are fighting weaker monsters closer to your level you may be comfortable handling links and pops)

-5 seconds
The designated tank will then draw agro towards themselves with a nice enough hate spike to keep hate through the application of debuffs that should start as soon as the tank establishes hate.

-10 Seconds
Meele engage while debuffs are landing all the while holding back a bit to avoid drawing hate from the monster, positioning themselves in proper defensive/offensive positions for their attack/defensive skills to proc.
http://www.zam.com/Im/Image/159900.jpg
*Something like this but more focus on positioning depending on what type of monster you face*

AOE moves wont always just target the tank and can sometimes exist just to keep DPS on their toes to avoid a tail lash if any member is behind the monster it adds that attack to it's selection when using a TP move.

-30 seconds
Meele and magic DPS focus down the monster while using abillities to regain HP and MP so the next fight wont have them missing many resources to allow for continual pulling.

-10 seconds
Puller runs out to get next mob while support classes place buffs on allies and prepare for the next battle.

Without proper debuffs monsters will be much more dangerous than if crippled beforehand but sometimes the risk to save MP may pay off if your party knows how to avoid taking alot of damage and the tank can mitigate enough to allow the support classes to spend/recover mp instead.

So yeah about a minute per battle allowing Meele to feel usefull, mages to do more than just toss out AOE cures, and the tank to actually be able to hold hate and feel like it was usefull.

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Every other rpg game I play consists of fights that are longer than 10 seconds. Heck even FPS have longer fights.

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1) If you've played an FPS where it typically takes more than 10 seconds to kill someone, you're either really terrible at the game or it's the slowest FPS game in the known universe.
2) You've clearly never played Diablo, Diablo II, Diablo III, WoW, DDO, MapleStory, Vindictus, LOTRO, or just about every other major MMO I can think of, all of which have fights with mooks (common enemies) routinely lasting 10-20 seconds. In many of the games I listed, even one-shots are quite common. In MapleStory in particular, if it takes you 10 seconds or more to kill something, it's taking too long and you shouldn't be fighting that mob.

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So yeah about a minute per battle

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Too long for regular enemies. You can achieve fights with everything you described in 30 seconds or maybe even less. Granted, that would still be an increase in fight duration for some of the stronger characters in the game. but for the average player, fighting an appropriate strength enemy already takes a lot more than the "10-20 second" numbers that have been thrown around in this thread. I'm really seeing even less of a problem with fight duration as this thread goes on.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

1) If you've played an FPS where it typically takes more than 10 seconds to kill someone, you're either really terrible at the game or it's the slowest FPS game in the known universe.
2) You've clearly never played Diablo, Diablo II, Diablo III, WoW, DDO, MapleStory, Vindictus, LOTRO, or just about every other major MMO I can think of, all of which have fights with mooks (common enemies) routinely lasting 10-20 seconds. In many of the games I listed, even one-shots are quite common. In MapleStory in particular, if it takes you 10 seconds or more to kill something, it's taking too long and you shouldn't be fighting that mob.

Too long for regular enemies. You can achieve fights with everything you described in 30 seconds or less.

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You named the most repetitive games out there..... HOW FUN!

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Originally Posted by Rokien

You named the most repetitive games out there..... HOW FUN!

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Subjective opinion is subjective. All of those are popular, well-known games and tend to have short fight times. Throwing out stupid, blanket statements like yours doesn't change the fact that this isn't an unusual occurance and since you didn't address your FPS comment, shows me that you are talking out your behind.

Also, rude and sarcastic post is rude and sarcastic. You have a history of this sort of behavior on the forums and it's no surprise why nobody takes you seriously.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Subjective opinion is subjective. All of those are popular, well-known games and tend to have short fight times. Throwing out stupid, blanket statements like yours doesn't change the fact that this isn't an unusual occurance and since you didn't address your FPS comment, shows me that you are talking out your behind.

Also, rude and sarcastic post is rude and sarcastic. You have a history of this sort of behavior on the forums and it's no surprise why nobody takes you seriously.

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Ok my fps comment. There's a group of enemies it normaly takes a few minutes to kill them all if not longer.

Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good. Take chocolate for instance, it's popular but it makes me gag from smelling it. Everything is an opinion.

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Everything is an opinion.

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Yes- the problem though is when people start deciding their opinion is "right" and the other person's is "wrong."

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Yes- the problem though is when people start deciding their opinion is "right" and the other person's is "wrong."

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Never once said that. We all have different tastes, that's why we are arguing right now. To me this is fun, to you it may seem like an annoyance of some sort. I have nothing against anyone on these forums, we each bring something that SE can take away from if they want to or not.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Anyways, dragons dogma is a good example of how fights should be.

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Well only in relation to Ur-Dragon, everything else is about as shit-easy as taking candy from a baby, and it even gets easier as the game progresses, rather than harder. (Whereas at least in Demon/Dark Souls, while the game was easy all throughout the first playthrough, it actually got harder as the game progressed and actually was a challenge by its 2nd playthrough.)

Not sure why this comes to mind, but the entire relationship between playing the game to enjoy it as it's going vs. playing it for the endgame kind of feels almost exactly like the struggle of a poorly prepared world (and game? :O) against the Empire for the right to survive and live as wanted, whereas the Empire despises it's loose powers and loose ends alike...

Could Yoshi-P have actually set up the 1.0 series just to play homage to his own coming, founding even satirical conditions on which to lay the 2.0 plot? <~~<~(^o^)

*Sets down the coffee.*

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Not sure why this comes to mind, but the entire relationship between playing the game to enjoy it as it's going vs. playing it for the endgame kind of feels almost exactly like the struggle of a poorly prepared world (and game? :O) against the Empire for the right to survive and live as wanted, whereas the Empire despises it's loose powers and loose ends alike...

Could Yoshi-P have actually set up the 1.0 series just to play homage to his own coming, founding even satirical conditions on which to lay the 2.0 plot? <~~<~(^o^)

*Sets down the coffee.*

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Huh?

Dalamud = Yoshi?

Sure that was coffee?

I don't object to longer fights but in FF14 the only way I can see it happening is the NPC simply hits for less and tanks more. In addition, I'd expect more exper and the way they force scale to level I don't know if they can do that here. Signature kills that double up exper? Having attacked stuff 4 or 5 levels above me with Conjurer, I always end up running away because I just run out of MP as it simply takes too long to kill them. I could see that becoming an issue in any long fights.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Ok my fps comment. There's a group of enemies it normaly takes a few minutes to kill them all if not longer.

Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good. Take chocolate for instance, it's popular but it makes me gag from smelling it. Everything is an opinion.

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Wait popular usually mean its good. I think you meant to say just because i don't like it doesn't mean its bad. fact of the matter is if a game is popular it means alot of people like it. Longer fight are pointless and if you think this game isnt as repetitive as the games Alhanelem listed than your right, its even more repetitive but so are all games eventually so why would you even try to use that as a point. FYI tryin to make a bootleg Poll on the forums is as about as accurate as a naked blm on garuda.

Don't even remember if I already posted this but anyway...

Longer fights just for the sake of dragging things out is not meaningful to gameplay. If battle can be designed longer for a purpose, such as phase changes and challenge-increases as fights go on, that's great. Currently in XIV, and the same was true in XI, longer fights only increased margin for error. Simultaneously the only mechanic that changed was mobs fired TP moves faster (true in both titles as well). In XI this boiled down players limiting mob TP gain and/or using sleeps to control battle flow. While we cannot sleep things effectively in XIV (and I find that a step in the right direction), the other mechanics are the same as XI. Tank movement has seen new emphasis as well, and that's alright I guess.

In short, longer fights need to be long for a reason. It cannot be there just to wear players out or increase the beat at lower mob HP. Things should be challenging over the course of the fight and spread responsibility of survival throughout the party. No one should feel safe. A balance can be found in there and should be.

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

Don't even remember if I already posted this but anyway...

Longer fights just for the sake of dragging things out is not meaningful to gameplay. If battle can be designed longer for a purpose, such as phase changes and challenge-increases as fights go on, that's great. Currently in XIV, and the same was true in XI, longer fights only increased margin for error. Simultaneously the only mechanic that changed was mobs fired TP moves faster (true in both titles as well). In XI this boiled down players limiting mob TP gain and/or using sleeps to control battle flow. While we cannot sleep things effectively in XIV (and I find that a step in the right direction), the other mechanics are the same as XI. Tank movement has seen new emphasis as well, and that's alright I guess.

In short, longer fights need to be long for a reason. It cannot be there just to wear players out or increase the beat at lower mob HP. Things should be challenging over the course of the fight and spread responsibility of survival throughout the party. No one should feel safe. A balance can be found in there and should be.

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I don't think anybody here has argued for meaninglessly elongated fights. I think most of us argue for a pace that will allow for the strategical deployment of our skills, as opposed to spamming these mindlessly. I think those who argue for "longer fights" really crave for battles, at every level, in which there's a buildup of tension and of possibilities for SNAFUs; battles that constantly tilt out of balance, and are not just a fight against the mindless numbers of mobs some of the current hurdles in Eorzea constitute.

In addition, a not-fixed pattern of links, more appropriate crowd control mechanics (keeping them, like you suggest, fallible), and a subtly increased margin of error (also your suggestion) would be, no doubt, steps in the right direction.

R

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

I don't think anybody here has argued for meaninglessly elongated fights. I think most of us argue for a pace that will allow for the strategical deployment of our skills, as opposed to spamming these mindlessly. I think those who argue for "longer fights" really crave for battles, at every level, in which there's a buildup of tension and of possibilities for SNAFUs; battles that constantly tilt out of balance, and are not just a fight against the mindless numbers of mobs some of the current hurdles in Eorzea constitute.

In addition, a not-fixed pattern of links, more appropriate crowd control mechanics (keeping them, like you suggest, fallible), and a subtly increased margin of error (also your suggestion) would be, no doubt, steps in the right direction.

R

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Yep yep yep

Yoshi, did you not get this memo!~? ""Because of that, the battle tempo, the speed with which you fight things, and the speed from one battle to the next will be significantly increased.""

Luckly Yoshi didn't read this topic :D

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Yoshi, did you not get this memo!~? ""Because of that, the battle tempo, the speed with which you fight things, and the speed from one battle to the next will be significantly increased.""

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You have no idea how it will actually pan out so how about you just be patient and wait for once? The speed in which you fight things could refer to the actual players, not the length of the fight. The speed from one battle to the next sounds more like less resting time between fights, not the length of the fight.

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Originally Posted by Munba

Luckly Yoshi didn't read this topic :D

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Saw the OP and skipped! Lol

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Originally Posted by Nikita

Saw the OP and skipped! Lol

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Yet you post in here bumping it. Why not just stop posting in it?

Also, come on, 20second fights!?! YOSHI!!!!

20 second fights "On what level ranged mobs" 20 seconds for an Easy pray? Decent? Even? Tough? Very Tough? Incredibly tough?

I say somewhere in the green.

Yeah I miss soloing in sea on BLM in XI; those fight lengths were perfect. You had to effectively mix debuffs, crowd control, and damage over a 30-40s period.