Summoner Over-Nered (and A few other Problems)

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Originally Posted by Silkerin

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Add a manual Provoke skill to Titan-egi. Or just don't use Demi-Bahamut when you want something tanked. Or, oh idk, use a chocobo like any other DPS.

Adding an AoE pet would not only be a waste of resources, but it would be detrimental to the current design plan in the game of limiting regular AoE damage for all jobs. On top of that, SMN AoE is still relatively solid with Bane (800/30 seconds primary, ~445/30 seconds minimum), Painflare (200, 5 second cd), Shadowflare (250/15 seconds), Deathflare (400 primary, 200 minimum) and Akh Morn (680 primary, 340 minimum). SMN AoE may be clunky, but they still have better AoE than most jobs.

As for the Osmosis thing, sure, that could be something. Would likely feel better as a passive trait just so it's one less ability to worry about.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Because you can't get Physik out of Arcanist.

The only way to remove Physik from SMN, but leaving it on SCH, would be to make it the first job ability of SCH (at level 30).

But what does a SCH do, when he get's unsynched to below level 30?
Just only rely on fairy (not that this is not possible)? I mean, ok, but taking a healer the ability to heal (although only low-level) as a trade-off so SMN can tank again (which might be not intended to be a big thing anymore, because we are a dps job and not a weak one).

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They don't have to take anything away from Scholar at all. All SE needs to do is at level 30 change Physick to Sustain for Summoners. If you are sync'ed below 30 then set it to Physick which is still effective at the lower levels. They already do something similar with Bio and Miasma so it isn't like they don't have experience or precedence against it.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Add a manual Provoke skill to Titan-egi. Or just don't use Demi-Bahamut when you want something tanked. Or, oh idk, use a chocobo like any other DPS.

Adding an AoE pet would not only be a waste of resources, but it would be detrimental to the current design plan in the game of limiting regular AoE damage for all jobs.

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Have to correct you here. Every other class in the game (except Summoner) have strong Aoe Cds, then spammable Aoe moves when needed.
Ninja's have hellfrog Medium (400 Potency) Katon (250 Potency) Doton (320 or something potency) And Deathblossom as their spammable Aoe (110 Potency)

Summoner's Aoe strength is 100% Reliant on skills with no less then one minute cooldown. Blm's have Foul for their big aoe with a reasonable 30 cd Thunder 4 Flare and Fire 2 which are both freely usable at any time. Bard has Rain of Death, and Quick Nock. No class is limited in Aoe, except Summoner where all their viable Aoe comes with a detrimental amount of downtime. Bane as you mentioned is now mostly worthless. Unless a group of adds last 30 seconds its a complete waste. (Doing Ex runs, most adds lasted around 12 even in big pulls.) Deathflare and Ahk Morn are even neutered by the damage fall off from their attacks. Especially since Ahk Morn isn't actually 680 potency. Turning Titan into something useful would be a good change. Otherwise Summoner's are waiting for everything to come off cooldown before they Aoe.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Because you can't get Physik out of Arcanist.

The only way to remove Physik from SMN, but leaving it on SCH, would be to make it the first job ability of SCH (at level 30).

But what does a SCH do, when he get's unsynched to below level 30?
Just only rely on fairy (not that this is not possible)? I mean, ok, but taking a healer the ability to heal (although only low-level) as a trade-off so SMN can tank again (which might be not intended to be a big thing anymore, because we are a dps job and not a weak one).

I mean, you want the best solo or best non-tank group or even (when a bit outgeared) the best utility at all, being able to tank significantly as a dps role? Then deal with having the lowest dps of all jobs, around MCH's current damage. Period.

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Then make it so that for SCH its Physik and for us SMN it turns into sustain..problem solved. Or make Physik heal pets more.

We cant even solo that much anymore..our tank egi does not hold aggro that much anymore and you cant use Bahamut and Titan at the same time. Not even talking about not being able to heal the pets. In the end I am not really sure how you exactly came to the conclusion with my post at all..I mean I did not even mention all of those points..

Right now we dont have good buffs for the party, we cant do a lot of solo content anymore (only possible if you have a good chocobo) and we are quite punished if we make mistakes..at the same time our place in the DPS ranking is not very good depending on the content. So what exactly do we have? A clunky Bahamut summon that not only blocks the view from a lot of people but also responds way too badly..(and lets not talk about dungeons under lvl70)

Really when I will try to get to 200 solo in PotD (when it will not kick me from the server anymore) I will do this with a redmage. You have a good heal, top DPS and gets hit quite less..even with the new potion I cant see how we summoners should survive it now.

My biggest grip right now is that I cant q up Aetherflow stacks while sitting on a trance....like wtf?? Before I could use my stacks, then pop aetherflow, switch to trance and have the whole duration of trance time for aetherflow stacks to come back off cool down. Now I have to wait until after the load has been blown to pop it....man c'mon.....

The whole Egi situation has become silly and redudant since we have been using the same one out of three for years.
Titan-Egi could tank and was nice in solo but now it's totally useless due to the summoner lack of healing capabilities and Demi-Bahamuth sending it away.
Ifrit-Egi is ok but we are still going to use Garuda-Egi 95% of the times due to superior utility and convenience.

If I may suggest something at this point I would just scrap Summon II and III and make Summon an ability which calls out an egi with generic abilities, mostly based around Garuda-Egi.
Ifrit, Titan, Carbuncles, Ramuh, Sephirot etc can just become egi glamour skins unlocked with their respective quests with SE adding more over time.

The result would be everyone getting to use their favourite Egi all the time and the class as a whole being more elegant and functioning better without redundant abilities: Summon II, Summon III and Phisick could get turned into Sustain, passive pet healing trait and anything else really to fill the missing ability slots as result.
Scholars, being linked to the arcanist frame, would instead get to keep Phisick and obtain a Fairy form change ability of sort to recoup the loss of Summon II.
Something like:
At level 4 SMN gets Sustain - SCH gets Phisick
At level 15 SMN gets a passive pet healing trait - SCH gets a Fairy form change ability
At level 30 SMN gets something else instead of Summon III (maybe something to help with Aetherflow stacks lost after a death or mistake)?

These are just raw ideas and I bet the devs could do even better however the SMN job, while not being terrible, still has some bad design choices which need some ironing.
Stormblood would have been the perfect time but alas here we are, I only hope we wont have to wait years for these fixes.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

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That was why I said 680 potency with a 320 minimum for Akh Morn. Also other than Death Blossom, all NIN AoE attacks have some sort of cooldown (Katon and Doton 20 seconds, Hellfrog Medium ~20 seconds with Mug, a 90 second cooldown) and NIN is the only DPS job in the game right now with bigger AoE skills that aren't "neutered by the damage fall off from their attacks", so NIN isn't really a good example. As for BLM, Fire 2 is like 250 potency, Thunder 4 is whenever it feels like proccing, and Flare is ~650 as well as a cycle thing and also has "damage fall off" like most other big AoE skills.

SMN is different in that you have to learn how to cycle AoE effects. It's only "limited in AoE" if you have no clue what you're doing, like using Bane on that 12-second trash pack when Painflare, tab-target dots and oh, idk, actual resource management might make you a bit better off. Sure, it's not a perfect system, but it's nowhere near as gimped as you'd think.

All I can say I'm loving SMN so far. Could do with a tiny buff on ruin III and fester apart from that I'm pretty happy with it.

How about they just get rid of worthless bahamut egi and make it so can use ruin iv all the time like ruin II and give back sustain. If they did that I would be happy. Its pretty bad when had titan at lvl 70 solo a monster 4 lvls below him and he died. If they don't want give sustain back to smn then they should remove and healing from all classes but the 3 healers to make it fair and see how they like it.

From the live letter answers, in all fairness, you could expect full black magic classes to be fully powerful again. Because, full black magic. I do hope so, for the shake of actual variety.

I dont understand, why they didnt implement bahamut like the hellfrog medium. Maybe popping two or three skills, then dissapearing again.
This way the whole gameplay isnt relying so much at working towards burst phases.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

SMN is different in that you have to learn how to cycle AoE effects. It's only "limited in AoE" if you have no clue what you're doing, like using Bane on that 12-second trash pack when Painflare, tab-target dots and oh, idk, actual resource management might make you a bit better off. Sure, it's not a perfect system, but it's nowhere near as gimped as you'd think.

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But how about oh, idk, actually make the imperfect system, less clunky? not to mention how oh, idk, all jobs have a spammable aoe filler aside sch and smn, but somehow manual doting feels comfortable enough for you in comparison to other jobs. also how nice of a suggestion to oh, idk, not use the main attraction of the job at 70 because you have to keep a pet out and not use bahamut.all i can see from your posts is how oh,idk, you dont want the other casting jobs to be in the same level as red.

btw, drain should be a blm only spell and have higher potency, and give something different for smn, like the osmosis thingie i mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Silkerin

But how about oh, idk, actually make the imperfect system, less clunky? not to mention how oh, idk, all jobs have a spammable aoe filler aside sch and smn, but somehow manual doting feels comfortable enough for you in comparison to other jobs. also how nice of a suggestion to oh, idk, not use the main attraction of the job at 70 because you have to keep a pet out and not use bahamut.all i can see from your posts is how oh,idk, you dont want the other casting jobs to be in the same level as red.

btw, drain should be a blm only spell and have higher potency, and give something different for smn, like the osmosis thingie i mentioned.

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No, I don't want other jobs being in the same theme as RDM. RDM has always been the support in the Final Fantasy series; a reasonable mix of damage and heals, that's its thing. I main RDM because that's the theme I prefer playing, not because it's "better" or "stronger" than other jobs, and I played SMN in 3.x because it was closest to that theme even though I knew full well that it wasn't quite to the point I liked. Even if they decided to lower potencies on RDM skills (still amazed they haven't), I'd still want to play it because I'm not playing it for how big its numbers are.

After trying out SMN at 70 and now leveling it on my main character, I still find it fun since I came to it with two realizations: one being that periodic damage is its thing and not burst damage, and the other is that leveling SMN requires leveling it just like any other DPS. I do agree with you though that SMN could use better filler--not necessarily AoE, but better filler in general--and that something needs to be done to make Titan-egi more relevant like that Osmosis buff or something that would convert damage output into pet healing since face tanking with my healing chocobo out does kinda remove some of that "uniqueness" Yoshi kept hammering in.

And FYI, the "oh, idk" thing is my way of annoying uptight people, so mission accomplished!

We should make a Bingo card for tomorrow's shenanigans.

Are we gonna get a buff or not? Or is it gonna be just a do-it-yourself size Demi bahamut?

Place your bets! Lol

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

No, I don't want other jobs being in the same theme as RDM. RDM has always been the support in the Final Fantasy series; a reasonable mix of damage and heals, that's its thing. I main RDM because that's the theme I prefer playing, not because it's "better" or "stronger" than other jobs, and I played SMN in 3.x because it was closest to that theme even though I knew full well that it wasn't quite to the point I liked. Even if they decided to lower potencies on RDM skills (still amazed they haven't), I'd still want to play it because I'm not playing it for how big its numbers are.

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Here's the problem with that. Summoner was the support caster. It was also the king of Aoes. Red Mage comes in, and all that uniqueness about Summoner? Out the window. Only thing Unique about Summoner is it's low damage, Bahamut obscuring people's view, and how worthless it is overall compared to Red Mage. As it stands, Red Mage should be the lowest damage caster, with the most support. For the longest time in this game, More Utility = Less damage to balance it out. Summoner either needs much higher utility, or much higher damage. I don't care which. Black Mage and Red Mage are the only competitive Casters. There's nothing Summoner has that can rival what either of those offer.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

SMN is different in that you have to learn how to cycle AoE effects. It's only "limited in AoE" if you have no clue what you're doing, like using Bane on that 12-second trash pack when Painflare, tab-target dots and oh, idk, actual resource management might make you a bit better off. Sure, it's not a perfect system, but it's nowhere near as gimped as you'd think.

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Mudras have an 18 sec cd btw~ Ninja's Aoe is on an 18 second cooldown. Foul the big scary Aoe of Black Mage is on 30 Second Cooldown. Never mind that Fire 2 is 50 base potency stronger then Painflare, (and gets buffed by Astral Fire) Nevermind about Flare usage with their new trait. Cycling Through stuff as Summoner shouldn't be necessary. The whole point of bane is that I just spread my dots, and start the rest of my Aoe. Going through and single targeting every add, isn't aoe. It's single target dots. No different then Bard putting all of their dots and every add, except that bard can follow up on that, with quick nock, and Rain of Death.

I'll give you a better example. Look at Scholar. Scholar's Aoe is bane. They put their dots up, and Shadowflare, that's all they have. Whm has Aero 3, to dot everything, Assize, and Holy Spam. Assize is 300 potency, cooldown anywhere from 60 seconds to 48. Aero3 50 potency per add hit with 40 potency over time. Holy? 200 potency with fall off. With aero 3 one assize and one holy, a Whm did 550 potency with 40 potency every tick per add (With some falloff on holy.) Scholar would do 250 potency over 15 seconds with shadow flare, and 70 potency with Bio 2 and Miasma 2 every tick with fall off. Would take Scholar 15 seconds do what that Whm did in about 5.
This is pretty close to how A blm outperforms a summoner in aoe damage. Especially with how long it takes Summoners to use Bahamut in the first place.

Blm and Whmn outperform Smn and Scholar in Aoe. Summoner's whole gimmick since Heavensward is they had better Aoe damage.
4 Fouls every two Minutes at 650 potency with fall of damage vs 2 ahk morns every two minutes at 544 potency. Black Mages Aoe is stronger, and on half the cooldown. 2600 potency worth of Aoe with damage fall off vs 1088 damage with fall off.
Fire 2 at 250 Potency whenever they want, vs maximum 3 Painflares per minute at 200 potency.
Flare's 260 Potency with fall off that they can now use multiple times vs Shadowflare 250
Bane isn't even worth anything since the second target you dot takes 20% less damage. If you have 4 targets, you apply dots on one then bane you have two targets that take 80 potency per tick, one that takes 64 potency and the last takes 32. That's 176 potency total per tick. Painflare in the same situation is 800 potency total. (You are spreading your dots to three other targets. the only potency increase is from those three.)

Tell me one other class that has all of their Aoe's locked behind a one minute cooldown. If they were stronger, I might understand. But there are classes like Black Mage, Like Ninja, that have Aoe on command, that does more damage, with less cooldown. The only class with weaker Aoe damage to my knowledge, is Machinist. (And they never really had Aoe damage to begin with.)

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Tell me one other class that has all of their Aoe's locked behind a one minute cooldown. If they were stronger, I might understand. But there are classes like Black Mage, Like Ninja, that have Aoe on command, that does more damage, with less cooldown. The only class with weaker Aoe damage to my knowledge, is Machinist. (And they never really had Aoe damage to begin with.)

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First off, you forgot Bard having less AoE damage than Summoner unless you're absolutely outstanding at dot management, and before you say something along the lines of "Rain of Death spam", that's an 80 second cooldown for a maximum of 38% uptime (Bane max is 50% uptime unless Aetherflow is prepped ahead of time).

The other thing you're forgetting to factor in for AoE as well are costs. Those "on command" AoE's have heavy costs to them, only being able to do so many of them before whatever resource is being used becomes exhausted, which will happen because not every AoE pack lasts just five seconds. Black Mage (which has intentionally been given far more AoE focus) and occasionally White Mage (once every two minutes) are the only two exceptions to this rule, otherwise all jobs should eventually even out against Summoner AoE. If timed right, Aetherflow can be prepped before each pull and not every pull is going to just explode instantaneously.

Also comparing Summoner to Black Mage, although both casters, is still an apples-to-oranges argument since you're trying to compare a dot caster to a nuke caster. Black Mage is supposed to hit like a truck at the expense of very limited mobility. If they move, they're not really doing anything for damage. If a Summoner has move, dots are still running and the strongest abilities can still be used while moving, so it's not the end of the world. Even Red Mage, despite Chaincast, still has to sit down for at least a couple seconds to take advantage of their mobility potential.

I'm not saying Summoner is perfect. I'm not even saying it's good. I'm saying it's not that bad. If it makes you feel any better, just go point and laugh at Machinist for the next few hours. If Summoner gets buffed in 4.05, good. If Summoner doesn't get buffed, then I guess devs know something that players don't. Maybe more whining might help, because that worked so well in 3.x.....

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

The other thing you're forgetting to factor in for AoE as well are costs. Those "on command" AoE's have heavy costs to them, only being able to do so many of them before whatever resource is being used becomes exhausted, which will happen because not every AoE pack lasts just five seconds. I'm not saying Summoner is perfect. I'm not even saying it's good. I'm saying it's not that bad. If it makes you feel any better, just go point and laugh at Machinist for the next few hours. If Summoner gets buffed in 4.05, good. If Summoner doesn't get buffed, then I guess devs know something that players don't. Maybe more whining might help, because that worked so well in 3.x.....

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Objectively, and Comparatively speaking, Summoner is bad. You can compare every class to it's peers in its role. Look at Melee class and see how they compete with each other.
Ninja and Monk both have high damage, with one having more Aoe, and the other being more single target focused. Monk's buff lasts longer, but is only 5% physical damage, Trick attack is shorter but is slightly stronger and includes all damage types. Monk is more single target focuses, and Ninja more balanced to include Aoe. They are both good classes. Neither can completely outshine the other at this point.

Paladin and Dark Knight are also easily comparable, Dark Knight having more damage options, with the ability to shield people like Paladin, but Paladin having more ways to lower the damage the group takes.

Comparing Summoner with Black Mage should be apples to apples. They are both casters. If there is a discrepancy where you can't compare the two then something is wrong.

Before Machinist was also nerfed into the ground, It was comparable to bard. The difference being that Machinist buffed Physical damage, and Bard buffed Magical. Both classes had the ability to regen Mp/tp with different abilities and sacrificed their dps to help the group.

Oh and funny you mention classes Aoe having heavy costs on them. Summoner is the opposite. Not only does Summoner have no on command Aoe, but if want increased Single target dps, You will be spending much more Mana for that damage increase. Ruin 3 is a dps gain over ruin 1 and 2 no matter when you use it. It only costs 3x the mana, for a 50% damage increase. (150 potency vs 100 potency).

And while Black Mage is heavily pressured to stay still and not move, They have tools in their arsenal to keep their dps. Triplecast, Lightning Procs that let their spells be instant, ability to teleport back to their leylines. Their play style was built upon in stormblood, when Summoner's play style was torn down.

Oh and about that snide little jab about people whining. Did you know in 3.X When Summoner had Ruin 3 buffed to 200 potency they could flat out overtake Black Mages in certain fights? People complained about it and then everything was great for awhile. Adds melted, Summoner had a nice little niche for itself.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/vCGkn...pe=damage-done

The two classes were still comparable for the most part. Black Mage would eventually overtake Summoner's burst damage, (Yes, I said Burst.) But Summoner had more mobility and utility.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

It was also the king of Aoes.


Never mind that Fire 2 is 50 base potency stronger then Painflare, (and gets buffed by Astral Fire) Nevermind about Flare usage with their new trait. Going through and single targeting every add, isn't aoe. It's single target dots. .
Fire 2 at 250 Potency whenever they want, vs maximum 3 Painflares per minute at 200 potency.

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Fire 2 is not 200 potency its 80 * .85 = 148 potency and we in fact stop using it at 70.

Rest is almost on point tho

I Feel smn just play way better now then 3.0 still don't get why ruin 1,2,3 are still a thing when all they do is the same thing instead just combine them and have ruin 3 insta and ruin iv only in dwt and sustain wtf was that skill again?

We at least got one thing we asked for. An accidental Fester/Bane will no longer screw us over since it will still give us the stack~

well it is safe to say at this point that whoever does smn balancing doesnt really play the job...

oh boy we now get aetherail when fester doesnt do damage...that would be the last of the things that needed to be addressed for smn... sure it might help schs but, since it was the only thing that smn got... it still shows how they have no idea how to separate the 2 jobs...

also... schs get miasma 2.... but the damn dps job doesnt... gj SE

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Originally Posted by Silkerin

well it is safe to say at this point that whoever does smn balancing doesnt really play the job...

oh boy we now get aetherail when fester doesnt do damage...that would be the last of the things that needed to be addressed for smn... sure it might help schs but, since it was the only thing that smn got... it still shows how they have no idea how to separate the 2 jobs...

also... schs get miasma 2.... but the damn dps job doesnt... gj SE

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Honestly the AF change this patch was so pointless... It only made the game style more foolproof.

Sigh. Summoner was the only thing I really played in the first month release of ARR, then when I got to be able to play the game again two years later, I leveled and played everything else but still played summoner the most. Now I just don't unless it's the super fate boss or nasty hunt that I don't want to be in the face of and in those aoes that would kill me. I used to be oddly particular about my story play; I like to see the cutscenes for the first time on summoner.

That changed at some point during the climb, I can't remember where, other than I was in Ala Mhigo onwards on ninja. Also the speed of mobs dying when playing solo while being chased in circles spamming Ruin 2 to not become the monster's chew toy because the pet died, with a newly summoned egi and chocobo following it, becoming inefficient pretty much put it in the "a distance away from the big bad only" seat. Hell, I'd be happy if they gave sustain back and did nothing else at this point. This is getting silly.

This is just a general "what if?" on my part. Maybe we can find a middle ground between where we were and where we are now.

I'm proposing to leave Bane & other AoE reductions where they are, and leave potency as is.


* Not sure why it was removed in the first place, but...give us back Sustain, but make it less effective than it was before (shorter time or less pot), or...increase Physick's effects on pets (as mentioned many times)

* Give us Miasma II, and add it to Tri-Disaster, make it Bane-able, and change Fester to include up t 3 DoT's

* Increase Ruin Mastery proc rate...and adjust Enhanced Enkindle down accordingly (maybe 40% proc for Ruin buff...and maybe 2 sec on Enkindle reduction?).

* Give us some sort of Quickened Aetherflow a la SCH trait

* Change Devotion to an AoE buff that can hit multiple party members depending on range/positioning/etc.



Any thoughts, or am I way off lol? Have fun all ^^

My personal ideal changes for SMN :

Ruin should be replaced with Ruin III, with Ruin IV becoming our DWT spell. Keep Ruin II as it is, for our go to mobility spell.
Ruin Mastery should be kept but lower the proc rate to 10%.
Sustain should be put back in our kit. (This one is just common sense... please, SE. We really need this back.)
Either the changes to Bane need to be reverted or the changes to Shadowflare need to be reverted.
Devotion should be an AoE utility, not just a buff on a random target we can't control.
Ruination needs to have its duration extended to 30 seconds and be applied with Bio III or Miasma III as well as Tri-Disaster.

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Originally Posted by Niraves

Ruin should be replaced with Ruin III, with Ruin IV becoming our DWT spell.

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PvP Summoner works that way. Hopefully they change it to be like that in PvE.

They should REALLY get rid of Ruin. 100 potency damage is pathetic and only used when you're low on MP. Ruin III should cost as low as Ruin regarless of Dreadwyrm Trance. Ruin IV can stay the same as a proc but also something you can spam under Dreadwyrm Trance. Hell, even buff their potencies because SMN's damage is pretty low.

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Originally Posted by Niraves

My personal ideal changes for SMN :

Ruin should be replaced with Ruin III, with Ruin IV becoming our DWT spell. Keep Ruin II as it is, for our go to mobility spell.
Ruin Mastery should be kept but lower the proc rate to 10%.
Sustain should be put back in our kit. (This one is just common sense... please, SE. We really need this back.)
Either the changes to Bane need to be reverted or the changes to Shadowflare need to be reverted.
Devotion should be an AoE utility, not just a buff on a random target we can't control.
Ruination needs to have its duration extended to 30 seconds and be applied with Bio III or Miasma III as well as Tri-Disaster.

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agree with this and
make tridisaster decent to use in aoes as filler, even 50 potency would be fine if the cast and cost are reasonable.
even miasma 2 would be fine.... SINCE IT IS STILL IN THE GAME BUT FOR THE HEALER SIDE NOT THE DPS SIDE.....
if they dont want to buff the physic for smns, fine, then increase the dps with the stuff mentioned above, so the lack of utility is balanced with more damage
do something to make titan egi useful or just change it to something else, because the way we have it now, even if we get sustain would be better to tank the stuff ourselves and try to live with drain. *because bahamut eats the egi, unless we can keep both out at same time, that would be awesome :D*
and i still like my osmosis leaching health from dots for the smn and pet idea :P