Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

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Originally Posted by Taika

With how the game is currently played (and hence designed), both Cleric Stance and tank DPS stances play a major part throughout the group content, so there's no base to this argument.

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I agree with this, and I hate people that imply that the healer DPS meta is the communities fault (thanks for blaming us for playing the game in response to the game design guys). Fixing cleric stance actually won't change much as the primary fault lies in both the range of DPS skills and DPS enabling a abilities and content itself allowing for DPS. There needs to be a radical shift in the game design for healer DPS to be any different than it is now.

Let's dissect this.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

You are not reading that correctly, if you suddenly change the game to make healers dps less, You will lose players that play healing roles in this game. I do not care if you are sick of it or not, fact is fact and people said so they will quit healing if they impact changes to take such effects. You want to make healing more fun? How about not having us do nothing for 2-3 minutes? that is why healers need respectable dps, something to do.

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"If you take away healer DPS, you're gonna lose healers!" Again. Good. They can get out. I want a healer who wants to heal, not one who's so preoccupied with DPS that they'd quit if that aspect took a hit. They can piss off. If you want to fix healers- make healing more fun, don't just make them green DPS. That's how you get healers who focus more on DPS than healing.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Also you are right, I am sick of DPS on tank jobs, take away Deliverance. We should take away, shield oath, sword oath, Defiance, Deliverance, grit, and make tanks do weak damage but take damage like they do now with their defensive ones, otherwise you will have 8 warriors rushes. Stance switching is too complex and needs to be made easier. that is what tone this thread sounds like when talking about why we need to remove cleric.

"I mean, if my WAR in any given party only was playing WAR to DPS, I'd want that pile of rubbish out of my party" (You can easily change job and ill fit)

And you will be very hard pressed to find a tank, maybe you have fun with one of them perma grit drks.

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"Waaaaah, if I can't have my healer DPs, how about we take out all tank stances! Offensive AND defensive! That'll show them! And make them weaker too! That's what that guy is saying!" Ya got me, tex. Despite me saying multiple times that "Healers are in a fine place for the most part" and "I'm cool with healers DPSing when they do their job correctly and don't focus constantly on their fucking DPS". I want all stances gone forever and everyone who's not a DPS to do terrible damage forever. You caught me! Now get out. Christ.

...And yeah, if I had a WAR tank who only sat in deliverance and I kept pulling enmity off of, and who told me to stop DPSing so he could DPS more and tank, I'd tell him to get out and kick his sorry arse out of the party too. I don't care about anyone DPSing long as they do their freaking job first and foremost.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

and tanks is ok? it is a lot "harder" then cleric is. I still do not understand why people jump on cleric stance and are fine with tank stances when they are more of a pain to do well.

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Tank stance dancing isn't actually that difficult- at least to me(But when I run WAR I just use a macro that swaps out Fell Cleave/Inner Beast and Decimate/Steel Cyclone on my hotbar, among other things), but I find it's a simple matter of "get enmity, then punch it". Again, first I do my job, then I make time to DPS. And DPS stances exist for a reason- tank swaps are a raid mechanic, and when you have two tanks and only one can be tanking the boss, you don't want the other to generate as much enmity. There's reason for it.

People jump on Cleric Stance because that's how party members die- when the healer wants to DPS more than they want to heal, and shirks their actual duty.

But, moving on to a more sensible post...

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Originally Posted by Taika

Many healer players, myself included, are playing the jobs precisely because they're hybrid type jobs in this game. If they were simplified by dropping half of their toolkit, many of those people would stop playing them. And wanting to play a hybrid type job (especially one that can be pretty demanding to optimise in the hardest content) does not make anyone "a pile of rubbish" as a player. In fact, one could argue the opposite.


With how the game is currently played (and hence designed), both Cleric Stance and tank DPS stances play a major part throughout the group content, so there's no base to this argument.

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If you're more focused on DPS than healing, I don't believe you should be playing a healer- you should be playing a DPS. I don't want you guys to stop DPSing, I'm cool with it happening, but when when every healer arguement is whining over their DPS and how they want more and they hope they get holyga for the next expansion instead of an actual valuable toolkit skill, it makes me think those folks need to take a step back and look at the role they're queuing for.

I'm not asking for half your toolkit to be gone. That would be stupid. I'm saying that the class who's role is healer shouldn't be so focused and obsessed with DPS- half their toolkit shouldn't BE DPS skills in the first place. Do your job first, ya damn layabout. And when you want more skills, maybe think of ways to make healing more fun instead of "Give me more DPS". You're not a DPS. Want more, go play a DPS. Need one that is a hybrid but has big numbers that you want? Go play summoner.

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Originally Posted by Shiro--Tsubasa

I hate the stance dancing play-style and it is the main reason I don't touch healing in this game. People like their stance dancing I get that, but that doesn't mean those who don't like it shouldn't have an option. I wish cleric stance was removed and replaced with something specific for a single job (preferably scholar). That way those who enjoy stance dancing will have their option and those who don't have theirs.

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I get where your coming from but frankly without it healing classes would become a lot more boring, particularly in non raid content. Healing mechanics tend to be rather simple with quite a lot of downtime and Healer dps rotations are almost mind-numbingly simple. The stance dancing is really the only aspect of it that requires some focus.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I agree with this, and I hate people that imply that the healer DPS meta is the communities fault (thanks for blaming us for playing the game in response to the game design guys). Fixing cleric stance actually won't change much as the primary fault lies in both the range of DPS skills and DPS enabling a abilities and content itself allowing for DPS. There needs to be a radical shift in the game design for healer DPS to be any different than it is now.

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To be fair, I don't think the current healer DPS meta is intentional design on SE's part. I think they just messed up healing gameplay to make it have too much downtime and players adapted using the available options. At its core, the source of this issue is the healing gameplay structure and balance in this game. Sadly the existing Meta is probably so established that trying to revert it would probably be very unpopular. It does restrict somewhat the ability of healer gameplay to expand as far as actual healing goes. New healing spells just make existing healing easier and give healers more time to dps. I think this lies at the fundamental core of why balancing healers has been so troublesome. The best that can be hoped for is for them to try and shift healer gameplay towards support as well as healing.

just give us a healer wich don't dps, but has other tools to increase party dps. and keep other healers who can dps themself. then people who like the hybrid healer-dps style have their class, and the heal-only healers have their class too and everyone is happy. especially the heal-only players who refuse to use the tools to increase the party dps, since "it's not their job"...
AST would be the perfect candidate for such a class, but i guess it's too late for such a drastic change. but another healer with those kind of buffs would be strange too...

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Originally Posted by Tint

just give us a healer wich don't dps, but has other tools to increase party dps. and keep other healers who can dps themself. then people who like the hybrid healer-dps style have their class, and the heal-only healers have their class too and everyone is happy. especially the heal-only players who refuse to use the tools to increase the party dps, since "it's not their job"...
AST would be the perfect candidate for such a class, but i guess it's too late for such a drastic change. but another healer with those kind of buffs would be strange too...

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it's just enemy-targeted damage contribution vs. ally-targeted damage contribution... I don't really understand how it would make a difference, except that it's damage floor could be crippled depending on your party members. The best outputs (like AST presently) are already going to be capped by some attempt at balance among actually good players. The same mechanics that would provide for that though would be shit when lacking said good players.

Personal opinion, if they took away cleric stance, i'd be inclined to not play healer in dungeons anymore.
I really enjoy the stance dancing aspect of healing

One thing to consider is the wide range of player skill, in other than the most high end content. For example in the "casual raids", such as Dun Scaith. With good party (and hopefully good alliance) the healing challenges are trivial and leave much time to dps. That there is the "healing is boring"part. However on another party, people keep messing mechanics, co-healer keeps dying, and I need to use all healing tricks in my sleeve to keep the thing from wipe. No time to dps, no mana to dps. If the healing challenge was higher, it would make it more interesting in the first case, and nightmarishly impossible in the latter. One could argue the game shouldnt cater so much for the "casual" players but it's already established this game is made friendly for them.

Silver line is, though... if you want healing challenge as healer, go play with randoms.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

"If you take away healer DPS, you're gonna lose healers!" Again. Good. They can get out. I want a healer who wants to heal, not one who's so preoccupied with DPS that they'd quit if that aspect took a hit. They can piss off. If you want to fix healers- make healing more fun, don't just make them green DPS. That's how you get healers who focus more on DPS than healing.

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And I'll say it again, you clearly don't understand how little healing is actually required in the bulk of content in this game. I suspect most of the people who are objecting to healer DPS being removed are of that mindset because frankly, there's very little else to do even as an AST. It's not that half of our toolkit is DPS, it's that the majority of encounters entirely revolve around doing DPS.

Some math for you. Looking over the last expert I logged, I cast 55 heals in a 17:30 run with 401 casts in total. So lets go with 1 in 7 casts being a heal, the rest being dps. Cleric stance was up for over 80% of the run. The run was entirely safe, no one died, no one was sweating. So what's going on here?

I'm a career healer/support who's likely cast more heals than many people on this forum have had hot dinners (And I've got a 4 digit magelo profile to back that up). Why am I doing so much more dps than I am healing? Because there is literally nothing else to do with my GCDs beyond giving in and just watching rubbish on netflix/youtube whilst mashing 1 key with the tank on follow. I'd much rather be buffing, healing and doing actual support work like I could in FFXI with my BRD but that's just not an option and frankly with 4 man groups, I'm not sure it's even a possibility.

If you want to play the disagree=kick game, save it for SE themselves as this situation is entirely their fault, AST in it's current form is both a massive mistake and a missed opportunity. Unless we get a new healer class mid expansion or the class design team manage to do a full scale rejig of AST around buffing rather than personal DPS, things just aren't going to change unless Yoshida is willing to up the base difficulty of the game as a whole for healers whilst also dialling back the speed at which players progress with gear.

I would personally enjoy if the developers made the content in such a way to make it just hard enough that healer's wouldn't be able to DPS at all. I am rather annoyed with all of healer dps/cleric stance threads at this point.

In my personal opinion, if you don't like how someone else plays, stop playing MMO's. Not everyone is going to play the way YOU want them to. YOU do not own/control the MMO. In contrast, if you are going to get butt hurt any time someone suggests another way to go about playing your class, again you should stop playing MMO's.

Now I will sit back and watch people get butt hurt over this comment.
/grabs popcorn.

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Originally Posted by Nyxn607

if you are going to get butt hurt any time someone suggests another way to go about playing your class, again you should stop playing MMO's.

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Or better still, accept that it's a big wide world and that not everyone is going to share the same viewpoint ;)

A valuable lesson for life this <3

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Originally Posted by Nyxn607

I would personally enjoy if the developers made the content in such a way to make it just hard enough that healer's wouldn't be able to DPS at all. I am rather annoyed with all of healer dps/cleric stance threads at this point.

In my personal opinion, if you don't like how someone else plays, stop playing MMO's. Not everyone is going to play the way YOU want them to. YOU do not own/control the MMO. In contrast, if you are going to get butt hurt any time someone suggests another way to go about playing your class, again you should stop playing MMO's.

Now I will sit back and watch people get butt hurt over this comment.
/grabs popcorn.

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http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx9jb1SPMr1qdrpdr.gif

Telling people to not play MMOs because of a difference in playstyle! Wish I'd thought of that first!

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Originally Posted by Nyxn607

I would personally enjoy if the developers made the content in such a way to make it just hard enough that healer's wouldn't be able to DPS at all. I am rather annoyed with all of healer dps/cleric stance threads at this point.

In my personal opinion, if you don't like how someone else plays, stop playing MMO's. Not everyone is going to play the way YOU want them to. YOU do not own/control the MMO. In contrast, if you are going to get butt hurt any time someone suggests another way to go about playing your class, again you should stop playing MMO's.

Now I will sit back and watch people get butt hurt over this comment.
/grabs popcorn.

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More butt hurt over your character appearance than your comment tbh. Should I quit now?

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

If you're more focused on DPS than healing, I don't believe you should be playing a healer- you should be playing a DPS. I don't want you guys to stop DPSing, I'm cool with it happening, but when when every healer arguement is whining over their DPS and how they want more and they hope they get holyga for the next expansion instead of an actual valuable toolkit skill, it makes me think those folks need to take a step back and look at the role they're queuing for


I'm not asking for half your toolkit to be gone. That would be stupid. I'm saying that the class who's role is healer shouldn't be so focused and obsessed with DPS- half their toolkit shouldn't BE DPS skills in the first place. Do your job first, ya damn layabout. And when you want more skills, maybe think of ways to make healing more fun instead of "Give me more DPS". You're not a DPS. Want more, go play a DPS. Need one that is a hybrid but has big numbers that you want? Go play summoner.

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How is Summoner a hybrid? It's a pure DPS job outside of a few selected support abilities every single other DPS job has as well.

Other than that, being a healer in this game means healing and doing DPS. That's their job (and their job isn't defined by their role name but in fact their abilities and play style and what they're capable of, just like BRD and MCH aren't just DPS but support as well). If they're only doing one of them (when there's use for the other), they're not doing their job. In fact the less they're able to focus on healing (while still keeping everyone alive) and the more they can focus on DPS, the better they are playing. The more they're supporting their party. That's how this game is designed.

I'm not interested in being only a healer. I'm not interested in being only a DPS either. I want to be both and in this game I can (just like I could in FFXI as a healer as well, only to a lesser extent). You can say people like me shouldn't be playing these jobs as much as you want, but in fact I'm pretty good at them, enjoy playing them and the people I play with enjoy having me in their team, so that's all that I need. :D

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

And I'll say it again, you clearly don't understand how little healing is actually required in the bulk of content in this game. I suspect most of the people who are objecting to healer DPS being removed are of that mindset because frankly, there's very little else to do even as an AST.

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Yes, I too wonder if you even have any experience of actually playing a healer in this game in the first place? Or are you just here to tell others how you imagine they should (not) be playing their main role?

Healers should be able to deal damage not only because solo content but also because healing is so overpowered currently and thus all the downtime but healers should not have their cake and eat it too.

If you keep giving healers more and more DPS options then they start stepping on the toes of actual DPS classes or even challenge them outright which is not the way it should be cuz then it would just be a healer+ tank meta only since why bring a DPS when you can bring a healer who can tear things up as well as heal and revive?

Healers already have god tier healing + decent DPS power, you cant have them be gods of damage and healing. Improve the jobs with making healing more interesting rather than band aid it with "MOAR DPS"

Why are people like ama using tanks as a comparison to healers clerics stance (probably cause I said I didn't care about the conversation anymore unless warrior was brought up, your a piece of work ama). Do you even realize how often a tank has to stance dance in a fight in comparison? There are fights where the Off tank is literally only useful for 1 mechanic (the rest is downtime) and the whole rest of the fight they are a DPS. The main tank can spend literally almost the whole fight in defiance/shield oath/grit while the offtank can spend almost the whole fight in deliverance/swordoath/nongrit. A very adept healer will have to switch numerous amounts of times, its not even about being hard at that point, its more about an annoyance, especially just to recast DoTs every time they go down if you want to optimize dmg. This comparison doesn't work, so don't even try it. A warriors entire toolkit is self heals and DPS which means they should be DPSing with no other alternative like a healer has which its main role is to heal. They could add more off tank mechanics but thats another debate for another thread.

Also if you lower tank DPS (which is fine with me) you may as well just lower healer dps instead since they don't have nearly as much downtime which defeats your own damn argument. Are you the one trolling now? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Rysir

If you keep giving healers more and more DPS options then they start stepping on the toes of actual DPS classes or even challenge them outright which is not the way it should be cuz then it would just be a healer+ tank meta only since why bring a DPS when you can bring a healer who can tear things up as well as heal and revive?

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About that...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50kFN0bnXBQ

There's also a fun video of solo-tank/solo-heal with 6 DPS (and that one didn't even have Echo *gulp*). I keep being surprised just "how" powerful tanks and healers in this game actually are - it really makes you feel inadequate as DPS.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Why are people like ama using tanks as a comparison to healers clerics stance (probably cause I said I didn't care about the conversation anymore unless warrior was brought up, your a piece of work ama). Do you even realize how often a tank has to stance dance in a fight in comparison? There are fights where the Off tank is literally only useful for 1 mechanic (the rest is downtime) and the whole rest of the fight they are a DPS. The main tank can spend literally almost the whole fight in defiance/shield oath/grit while the offtank can spend almost the whole fight in deliverance/swordoath/nongrit.

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If we're talking about content that matters, off tank can generally stay a whole fight in DPS stance, yes, but main tank is probably switching around a lot (or should be, if they're optimising their play), swapping to tank stance for heavy damage and when they need to boost their enmity while staying as much as possible in DPS stance. In that way it's very similar to healer play. And just like healers, in content that doesn't really matter, the tank is likely spending majority of their time in DPS stance.

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Originally Posted by Taika

If we're talking about content that matters, off tank can generally stay a whole fight in DPS stance, yes, but main tank is probably switching around a lot (or should be, if they're optimising their play), swapping to tank stance for heavy damage and when they need to boost their enmity while staying as much as possible in DPS stance. In that way it's very similar to healer play. And just like healers, in content that doesn't really matter, the tank is likely spending majority of their time in DPS stance.

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Except you cant on warrior because it has a 10 second coooldown. The other 2 classes are 2.5 cooldowns. They do not switch nearly as much as you are trying to imply even in relevant content (All Tanks, not just warriors).

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Originally Posted by Taika

I just checked that one of our latest A11S runs (which was back in January :D) our PLD main tank switched 13 times in 7.5 minute fight. I wouldn't call that staying in tank stance for almost the whole fight.

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I would hope so now that its overgeared and allowable. Did you by chance check how often a healer switched or are we just pulling numbers out of our ass?

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Except you cant on warrior because it has a 10 second coooldown. The other 2 classes are 2.5 cooldowns. They do not switch nearly as much as you are trying to imply even in relevant content (All Tanks, not just warriors).

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I just checked that on one of our latest A11S runs (which was back in January http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/i...es/biggrin.png so pre-echo and all that jazz) our PLD main tank switched 13 times in 7.5 minute fight. I wouldn't call that staying in tank stance for almost the whole fight. And I changed to Cleric Stance 17 times, our AST did 19 times. There's a difference but not as huge as you seemed to imply. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/i...lies/smile.png

(Reposted because you posted again before my edit so I didn't have to spam with double post.)

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Look you can deny it all you want, healer switching is much more common than a tank switching.

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I'm not "denying" anything, I'm posting numbers to prove my point. Do you have numbers that show the opposite? Of course the higher a person ranks, the less they're switching because they're spending more time in Cleric / DPS stance, so it's hard to compare from randoms. That's why I used our own standard run as an example.

Edit: Very easy to check if the numbers are made up or not by just going to logs and check: all our numbers with that group are public. :) Don't dare to link here because I'm not sure if it's allowed.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Edit: You need to undestand something Taika. When a Maintank lowers their tank stance, they are directly causing healers to heal more thus lowering their DPS capability in the process anyway. If the tank switches to dps stance for some of the fight (except DPS clock mechanics) healers can see less switching anyway. Tank DPS is more important than healer dps cause they are consistently dpsing even in tank stance just to hold hate and their dps is also figured into the bosses calculations. I still believe this comparison does not work even if you are trying to make it seem so.

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Thank you for explaining, I'm so clueless about this game's mechanics and have no experience whatsoever. :D Joking aside, at least in our group, where the numbers I posted are from, our main tank switching to DPS stance does not cause us to DPS significantly less. We actually try these things and discuss them and see if the stance switch would be a DPS loss or not.

What actually matters is the overall DPS from the group: tank DPS is not any more valuable than healer DPS in itself (since tank only needs certain amount of enmity), and each group should make these decisions based on what grants them the highest party DPS in the most convenient way. But this is beside the discussion which was if healers and tanks are switching stances in comparable numbers. To which the answer is: depends on the fight and the healer / tank role. In some fights at least they obviously are.

Oh so your latest run was back in january. Noticed you deleted that comment, any reason for it? Good thing I qouted it.

Look you can deny it all you want, healer switching is much more common than a tank switching. I doubt you even play tank but I ain't going to assume and I aint going to go check your profile cause I don't care enough.

They are still incomparable when an offtank can spend nearly a whole fight in dps stance due to having no other purpose than 1 mechanic. Even the main tank will not have to switch much if any at all.

No I don't have numbers for comparison, even IF i did, there's no way to prove were not just making numbers up. I DO however have my own experience as a warrior/scholar for comparison and the amount of switching between those two is like night and day.

Edit: You need to undestand something Taika. When a Maintank lowers their tank stance, they are directly causing healers to heal more thus lowering their DPS capability in the process anyway. If the tank switches to dps stance for some of the fight (except DPS clock mechanics) healers can see less switching anyway. Tank DPS is more important than healer dps cause they are consistently dpsing even in tank stance just to hold hate and their dps is also figured into the bosses calculations. I still believe this comparison does not work even if you are trying to make it seem so.

I still don't buy it, especially concerning off tanks which number you didnt bother to post. A main tank may have to switch a bit to boost dps but off tanks very rarely have to switch out of and back into. Warriors have to make a choice since their cooldown is 10 seconds long anyway. Ama chose the wrong tank to pick on for tank swapping in the first place. Your numbers don't mean anything to my experience, just sayin.

Whaaaat, I feel short changed here, my tanks generally opened with a combo in defensive stance and pretty much never went back. if I go back to January (We killed it earlier, but it wasn't until here that we started using a warrior pull and holmganging a few heat/spears), our warrior used just shy of 20 GCDs in defiance (spread across 3 occasions) throughout the entire A12S encounter. In the same kill our DRK used Grit twice, once just after the intermission to stop me pulling agro during the first stasis and again just after the second stasis as a mini cooldown.

On the flipside of the coin, myself and my co healing SCH used Cleric stance 9 times each, I had a 15% total uptime and my SCH was at 90% =o

This is something that really varies from group to group, I push a ton of HPS to allow my tanks and co healer to spend most of the fight DPSing as hard as they can. Other groups may have a more balanced approach to this (as Evy's demonstrates).

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Whaaaat, I feel short changed here, my tanks generally opened with a combo in defensive stance and pretty much never went back. if I go back to January (We killed it earlier, but it wasn't until here that we started using a warrior pull and holmganging a few heat/spears), our warrior used just shy of 20 GCDs in defiance (spread across 3 occasions) throughout the entire A12S encounter. In the same kill our DRK used Grit twice, once just after the intermission to stop me pulling agro during the first stasis and again just after the second stasis as a mini cooldown.

On the flipside of the coin, myself and my co healing SCH used Cleric stance 9 times each, I had a 15% total uptime and my SCH was at 90% =o

This is something that really varies from group to group, I push a ton of HPS to allow my tanks and co healer to spend most of the fight DPSing as hard as they can. Other groups may have a more balanced approach to this (as Evy's demonstrates).

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Yup, really depends on the group! Me and our AST seem to split our DPS more evenly (he's ranking 61% and me 76% on A11S pre-echo) than you and your cohealer. Whatever works the best for each team! :)

Oh and as a bit of a footnote to the tangent this discussion has taken and how it might not be entirely clear to casual players.

I'd like to point out that these kind of endgame strategy variations simply wouldn't be possible without cleric stance as it is. Simply put, I suspect Evy and myself would be discussing the ratio of toilet breaks and dog walks vs actual heals if it wasn't for the depth that cleric stance and healer DPS in general affords us.

It might not be the depth that we want, but it's all the depth that we have right now :(

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Originally Posted by Nyxn607

I would personally enjoy if the developers made the content in such a way to make it just hard enough that healer's wouldn't be able to DPS at all.

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As a healer... I would love this.

The bottom line is, people just generally don't want to be healers and tanks because of the perceived level of responsibility is higher than a dps job. Now, as experienced players, we know that isn't true as all jobs share an equal level of responsibility. But to a new player starting the game (especially if they don't have past MMO experience), they will go the safer approach and choose a dps job.

Also, I clearly recall when 2.0 first went live, there were massive complaints that there were no healers and tanks and a huge glut of dps. There were several posts here, on reddit and on FC specific forums asking people why and the majority responded with that tanks and healers are boring while dps jobs are exciting because they get to do damage.

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

Also, I clearly recall when 2.0 first went live, there were massive complaints that there were no healers and tanks and a huge glut of dps. There were several posts here, on reddit and on FC specific forums asking people why and the majority responded with that tanks and healers are boring while dps jobs are exciting because they get to do damage.

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Well, we just need more exciting healing mechanics. Maybe a Healer who can slap a buff on a target to convert a certain type of damage to healing? So a mob uses, say, Thunder on your tank, the healer slaps Thunder Aegis on them, and suddenly instead of taking 2,000 or so damage, they get healed for 1,000 instead. Give the buff a short enough duration so that the healer has to pay attention, but not so short that those with poor connections could never play the class. Naturally they'd still have all the usual healing staples such as direct heals and absorbs/HoTs, but it could prove for an interesting mechanic, especially if there are ways to improve it a bit further. Maybe absorb water damage and the healer regens some MP or something.

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

The bottom line is, people just generally don't want to be healers and tanks because of the perceived level of responsibility is higher than a dps job. Now, as experienced players, we know that isn't true as all jobs share an equal level of responsibility.

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I'm sorry, but this is not true. You will seldom, if ever see anyone berating a DPS for not knowing every fight, or not being able to pull the entire dungeon. No DPS will ever be blamed for a wipe unless they were specifically assigned the mechanic that wiped the party. Theoretically yes DDs should have just as much responsibility, in practice and in my experience they absolutely do not carry the can unlike tanks and healers.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

People jump on Cleric Stance because that's how party members die- when the healer wants to DPS more than they want to heal, and shirks their actualduty.

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Doing improper tank stance dancing is how people die and wipe, cleric stance does not do it. It is not cleric stance fault if people are trying cast cures while under it for 5 minutes till someone dies is not the fault of cleric stance. It is misplacing blame, even look at the video of doing a12s with no healers, lul, it is amazing what tanks can do when they know what they are doing. The only job that notices if tanks are really doing a proper job is an aware healer, holding hate is not all you do as a tank, you should be migrating damage and a for a lot of people, it is a difficult concept, provoking full time healers from thinking it is their fault.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Why are people like ama using tanks as a comparison to healers clerics stance (probably cause I said I didn't care about the conversation anymore unless warrior was brought up, your a piece of work ama). Do you even realize how often a tank has to stance dance in a fight in comparison? There are fights where the Off tank is literally only useful for 1 mechanic (the rest is downtime) and the whole rest of the fight they are a DPS. The main tank can spend literally almost the whole fight in defiance/shield oath/grit while the offtank can spend almost the whole fight in deliverance/swordoath/nongrit. A very adept healer will have to switch numerous amounts of times, its not even about being hard at that point, its more about an annoyance, especially just to recast DoTs every time they go down if you want to optimize dmg. This comparison doesn't work, so don't even try it. A warriors entire toolkit is self heals and DPS which means they should be DPSing with no other alternative like a healer has which its main role is to heal. They could add more off tank mechanics but thats another debate for another thread.

Also if you lower tank DPS (which is fine with me) you may as well just lower healer dps instead since they don't have nearly as much downtime which defeats your own damn argument. Are you the one trolling now? :rolleyes:

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Because I am sick of seeing people attacking cleric stance when real issue is tanks! Plus tank stance switching is more complex then a cleric toggle, so it is just me being curious why people seem to put cleric in such a bad light and think dropping it will add more healers, and nothing is said on tank stances.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

If you're more focused on DPS than healing, I don't believe you should be playing a healer- you should be playing a DPS. I don't want you guys to stop DPSing, I'm cool with it happening, but when when every healer arguement is whining over their DPS and how they want more and they hope they get holyga for the next expansion instead of an actual valuable toolkit skill, it makes me think those folks need to take a step back and look at the role they're queuing for.

I'm not asking for half your toolkit to be gone. That would be stupid. I'm saying that the class who's role is healer shouldn't be so focused and obsessed with DPS- half their toolkit shouldn't BE DPS skills in the first place. Do your job first, ya damn layabout. And when you want more skills, maybe think of ways to make healing more fun instead of "Give me more DPS". You're not a DPS. Want more, go play a DPS. Need one that is a hybrid but has big numbers that you want? Go play summoner.

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That isn't the fault of players but simply how the game mechanics work. We focus on DPS because once healing/mitigation checks have been determined, there is literally nothing else to worry about. Very few healers, even at the hardcore level, want more DPS abilities. In fact, many want steeper heal checks, thus allowing them to focus on the main aspect of their job. I, for one, dislike the sheer amount of down-timed I'm afforded even in Creator Savage. Case in point, due to how tanks optimize and immunity through the entire first phase of A12S, you have exceptionally little healing requirements. If properly timed, the first healing spell you'll even need to cast is on the DPS when marked for Prey. After the wombo-combo of Mega Holies, you'll have free reign to DPS once again during all three sets of adds. This is what further emphasized the DPS meta. You simply won't be doing anything if you aren't actively DPSing. What I just outlined is supposedly the hardest content in the game. Let's shift to the easiest; dungeons. I'll spend 50-80% in Cleric. That, in my opinion, isn't a good thing. Unfortunately, the devs seem terrified of upping healer checks and better facilitating a need to actually heal fairly consistently. Until they do, the healer DPS meta will only become more widespread.

The thought occurs that if the tanks armor was good enough to ignore auto attack damage like water of a ducks back, and was able to absorb/mitigate more special attack damage, then tanks would really be tanks and healers could spend less time focusing on maintaining the tank during normal action. On the flip side, if DPS were receiving incoming damage from auto attacks and skills, they would need more attention from the healer.

This would put much more pressure on tanks to maintain crowd control, and make healing much more variable - and require more attention.

But for this to happen, there would need to be a few more adds/trash mobs, tanks would have to have a bit more in the way of crowd control skill and tank armor would need to be buffed vs ordinary weapon-skills and auto-attacks. There would no doubt be complaints about tanks being so 'tanky'. To be fair to all, this would be something that happens in a party only - basically when the tank has someone to protect, their defensive abilities should be come sharper, just as a healer should become stronger at heals and DDs should be just that bit more lethal. In other words, during party content our respective roles should be stronger than they are in solo content.

So, let's see, plucking numbers from mid-air, during light /full party content a tank's DEF scores should be +20%, Healers heal potency should be +20% and DDs output should be +20%. This would really focus people's attention on their roles, healers would need to focus more on actually healing and removing debuffs, tanks would focus more on crowd control and their tank stance to protect DDs and healers, and DDs would be the undisputed kinds of offense with the obvious responsibility of killing things, but their increased damage while partied would mean tanks have to remain in tank stance much more to maintain proper control... Strengthen the main aspects of each role in the trinity, rather than blurring the lines. This will make it easier for players who want to heal to do just that and perhaps make the role both clearer and more attractive.

Let's dissect! Again!

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

And I'll say it again, you clearly don't understand how little healing is actually required in the bulk of content in this game. I suspect most of the people who are objecting to healer DPS being removed are of that mindset because frankly, there's very little else to do even as an AST. It's not that half of our toolkit is DPS, it's that the majority of encounters entirely revolve around doing DPS.

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And I'll say it again, if you want healers who don't bitch constantly about their DPS and care about damage more than healing, make healing more fun. We can all agree healing is boring, right? So the solution is to make it not boring, not make healers even less focused on doing their job. I understand how healing works, and my opinion is just as valid as yours. Don't try to short change me.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Some math for you. Looking over the last expert I logged, I cast 55 heals in a 17:30 run with 401 casts in total. So lets go with 1 in 7 casts being a heal, the rest being dps. Cleric stance was up for over 80% of the run. The run was entirely safe, no one died, no one was sweating. So what's going on here?

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You're doing your job before you DPS. Thus, I have no problem with you in this theoretical scenario. In fact, in this theoretical scenario, I would praise how you handle your role. Good job! Now shut up about your DPS, I don't care.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'm a career healer/support who's likely cast more heals than many people on this forum have had hot dinners (And I've got a 4 digit magelo profile to back that up). Why am I doing so much more dps than I am healing? Because there is literally nothing else to do with my GCDs beyond giving in and just watching rubbish on netflix/youtube whilst mashing 1 key with the tank on follow. I'd much rather be buffing, healing and doing actual support work like I could in FFXI with my BRD but that's just not an option and frankly with 4 man groups, I'm not sure it's even a possibility.

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On a small tangent, I don't like hearing "I'm a career X" in MMOs because it sounds silly, but that's a topic for another day. You're not wrong, but you're also missing my point. My point has never been "Take away all healer DPS", and I made that point vehemently in my last post. I just think healers shouldn't focus on DPS more than healing. If you want to make healing roles better, you need to fix the healing, not just tack on more DPS. This topic is about Cleric Stance- the request is to just remove it entirely so healers can have a 100% healing and DPSing uptime with no risk or loss in damage. Which I disagree with because giving healers more DPS isn't going to make healing less boring. You want to attract people to healing roles? Good healers? Fix healing, don't just make them green DPS. We want the same thing, dude.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

If you want to play the disagree=kick game, save it for SE themselves as this situation is entirely their fault, AST in it's current form is both a massive mistake and a missed opportunity. Unless we get a new healer class mid expansion or the class design team manage to do a full scale rejig of AST around buffing rather than personal DPS, things just aren't going to change unless Yoshida is willing to up the base difficulty of the game as a whole for healers whilst also dialling back the speed at which players progress with gear.

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Hey, I agree, the healing meta is SE's fault, they don't like it, I don't like it, most people don't like it. That's why this topic is about spitballing changes to fix that. Do I expect anything to come out of this topic? Hell no, but it's nice to dream, right? Still, gotta hand it to you- I've had to cut up posts in this topic for a while and yours is currently the most sane example, so thanks.

But now, let's move on to another one to cut up.

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Originally Posted by Taika

How is Summoner a hybrid? It's a pure DPS job outside of a few selected support abilities every single other DPS job has as well.

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You've got a revive and a heal. That's as close to a hybrid you're gonna get in FF14. You want to heal, but want more DPS? Go play summoner. You want to keep your healing but do more DPS? You're doing two roles at once now. You can't heal your cake and damage it too. You heal, or you DPS. Either one can be auxiliary, but both are not going to be your main role.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Other than that, being a healer in this game means healing and doing DPS. That's their job (and their job isn't defined by their role name but in fact their abilities and play style and what they're capable of, just like BRD and MCH aren't just DPS but support as well). If they're only doing one of them (when there's use for the other), they're not doing their job. In fact the less they're able to focus on healing (while still keeping everyone alive) and the more they can focus on DPS, the better they are playing. The more they're supporting their party. That's how this game is designed.

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Your job is to heal. You're a healer. Healer DPS isn't factored into tuning endgame content because your job isn't DPS. DPS is there to alleviate soloing and help support dedicated roles if you want, but it's not mandatory- it's not part of your job. Your job is to heal. Now, if you're more concerned about your DPS than your he- wait hold on.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I'm not interested in being only a healer. I'm not interested in being only a DPS either. I want to be both and in this game I can (just like I could in FFXI as a healer as well, only to a lesser extent). You can say people like me shouldn't be playing these jobs as much as you want, but in fact I'm pretty good at them, enjoy playing them and the people I play with enjoy having me in their team, so that's all that I need. :D

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So you do care more about DPS than healing. Maybe you should go play summoner, like I suggested! Then you can support your party with raises and lowball heals but still do big numbers! But you ain't breakin' the trinity. You don't get to be a healer AND a DPS. Hell, bards are gonna break that with a support role before you get your "I'm a DPS and a healer" wish. But from what I can glean, you just wanna do two jobs at once in a game with a really strictly enforced trinity group system, so you might just have a bad time. But hey, keep enjoying yourself. I don't give a damn what you like, and frankly hope you have fun and continue playing. Shine on, you angry diamond, be a strong independent healer who don't need no DPS.

Just don't do it near me, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Yes, I too wonder if you even have any experience of actually playing a healer in this game in the first place? Or are you just here to tell others how you imagine they should (not) be playing their main role?

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Don't try to marginalize my opinion by saying I'm unqualified. That'll just make me tell you to piss off. My opinion is just as valid as yours is. I've done healing in this game, but I don't like it- because of the reasons listed in this topic, mostly. I don't like healers being shunned for not DPSing and how the meta is "Bad healers don't DPS", and while I can I find it jarring compared to healing in other games, where I had to focus more on healing to begin with. Plus, the two friends I play with in my linkshell both mainline healing classes, so it'd be a little redundant.

But hey, let's end on a high note for this one, why don't we?

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Because I am sick of seeing people attacking cleric stance when real issue is tanks! Plus tank stance switching is more complex then a cleric toggle, so it is just me being curious why people seem to put cleric in such a bad light and think dropping it will add more healers, and nothing is said on tank stances.

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Cleric stance isn't the real issue in this topic about cleric stance! It's tanks! MENTOR tanks!

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Because I am sick of seeing people attacking cleric stance when real issue is tanks!

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http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/fmc.gif

I'm done.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

**snip about sommoners**
You've got a revive and a heal. That's as close to a hybrid you're gonna get in FF14. You want to heal, but want more DPS? Go play summoner. You want to keep your healing but do more DPS? You're doing two roles at once now. You can't heal your cake and damage it too. You heal, or you DPS. Either one can be auxiliary, but both are not going to be your main role.

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Paladin should/could be a hybrid also, they have access to cure and Clemency. If their cure was based on their weapon potency, it might be worth something. Finally, give Paladins a battle raise trait and you have the perfect hybrid healer - and I would totally play the crap out of it.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

You've got a revive and a heal. That's as close to a hybrid you're gonna get in FF14. You want to heal, but want more DPS? Go play summoner.

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Summoner has a revive, yes (so does PLD), but they don't even have an effective healing spell. That's not even close to making the job a hybrid. :)

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

You want to keep your healing but do more DPS? You're doing two roles at once now. You can't heal your cake and damage it too. You heal, or you DPS. Either one can be auxiliary, but both are not going to be your main role.

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Healer in this game is a role that includes both healing and DPS. You can look at pretty much any data from healer players to see this to be true. You can look at their abilities to see this to be true. You can look at the content and battle design to see this to be true. On the other hand, there is nothing to support your claim that healer role in this game would only involve healing. Everything points towards the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Healer DPS isn't factored into tuning endgame content because your job isn't DPS.

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Healer DPS is actually factored into tuning endgame content in the sense that most difficult content is not possible to clear without it when it's released (you can look at the world first parses to check it yourself in case you weren't aware of it). To say healer DPS isn't factored in is to say the players aren't actually meant to beat the content, which doesn't make any sense.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

So you do care more about DPS than healing.

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I care about supporting my party as well as I can no matter which job I'm playing. I try to do what's the most useful to my group in each situation. Sometimes it's healing, sometimes it's DPS (the better everyone is playing the more often it's DPS).

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Maybe you should go play summoner, like I suggested! Then you can support your party with raises and lowball heals but still do big numbers! But you ain't breakin' the trinity. You don't get to be a healer AND a DPS.

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There is no clear-cut trinity in this game outside role names and certain setups and role functions. Tanks are specialised in enmity and defense, but they also have DPS stances and rotations and are sometimes focused more on that than tanking. It's the same for healers.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Hell, bards are gonna break that with a support role before you get your "I'm a DPS and a healer" wish. But from what I can glean, you just wanna do two jobs at once in a game with a really strictly enforced trinity group system, so you might just have a bad time. But hey, keep enjoying yourself. I don't give a damn what you like, and frankly hope you have fun and continue playing. Shine on, you angry diamond, be a strong independent healer who don't need no DPS.

Just don't do it near me, thanks.

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I don't even know how to reply to this. Someone here seems angry, but that's definitely not me. :D

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Don't try to marginalize my opinion by saying I'm unqualified. That'll just make me tell you to piss off. My opinion is just as valid as yours is.

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It's a valid question because you truly don't seem to understand how healing works in this game and what the healing requirements are like in this game. My opinion is more than just an opinion, it's based on experience and knowledge: I have played healer roles in all content in this game from 1.0 and cleared Coil (not Savage) and Alexander Savage as healer. In addition to my own experience, I follow parse numbers from different healers and groups to see how much damage is coming in and how much healing is required to cover that. I'm talking about how healing actually works in this game as it is, not about how I feel about it.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Since this entire post is just discreding me and telling me "lol u mad bro" I'm just going to generally disregard your entire post and tell you to get out.

The whole thing reeks of smarm and "I'm not mad :^)".

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I did not mean to discredit you, if I would have I wouldn't have actually bothered to read it and reply to each of your points. You may interpret my post in any way you wish, but I don't think you've given me any reason to be mad at you.

for sure I'll stop healing if they just take it away without adding complexity elsewhere

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Paladin should/could be a hybrid also, they have access to cure and Clemency. If their cure was based on their weapon potency, it might be worth something. Finally, give Paladins a battle raise trait and you have the perfect hybrid healer - and I would totally play the crap out of it.

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You're totally right! Thanks for the heads up. Somehow, I always forget about Clemency.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Snip

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Since this entire post is just discreding me and telling me "lol u mad bro" I'm just going to generally disregard your entire post and tell you to get out.

The whole thing reeks of smarm and "I'm not mad :^)".

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

You've got a revive and a heal. That's as close to a hybrid you're gonna get in FF14. You want to heal, but want more DPS? Go play summoner. You want to keep your healing but do more DPS? You're doing two roles at once now. You can't heal your cake and damage it too. You heal, or you DPS. Either one can be auxiliary, but both are not going to be your main role.

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First and foremost, Summoner healing is garbage. Any Summoner casting Physic needs to be boinked on the head. As for Raise, it's a utility they shouldn't have to use unless the entire raid is going to hell. Healers always get priority Raise duty because you don't want to cut into Summoner's DPS.

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Your job is to heal. You're a healer. Healer DPS isn't factored into tuning endgame content because your job isn't DPS. DPS is there to alleviate soloing and help support dedicated roles if you want, but it's not mandatory- it's not part of your job. Your job is to heal. Now, if you're more concerned about your DPS than your he- wait hold on.

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Here though, is where you are objectively wrong. Healing is hybrid by its very nature. As already outlined above, it's built into the job once you begin optimizing. A healer concerned with their DPS has already maximized the healing aspect and now wants to learn balancing the two between stance dancing. That is simply how healing works in FFXIV currently. It is little different than how tanks focus less on tanking and more on DPS because once you've reached the mitigation threshold, all that matters is how much damage you do regardless of the job you play.

This is like the strength tank argument all over again. I hope SE steps up to plate and makes a decision like they did in that situation.

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

This is like the strength tank argument all over again. I hope SE steps up to plate and makes a decision like they did in that situation.

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This is why I suspect Cleric will be removed and all healer damage will scale through mind. Of course, that has the added effect of solidifies the healer DPS meta. It wouldn't even be an option anymore. So... who knows.