Tbf, they aren't wrong either. While a good healer womt shave off more than maybe one minute off a run, healer DPS is disgustingly overpowered when it comes to AoE, due in large part the fact SE has no idea how to actually balance them with the rest of the jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by NailBach
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05-11-2016, 12:17 AMThunda_Cat_SMASH
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05-11-2016, 12:54 AMEidolon*jawdrop*Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
Are you people for real with this? Does the concept of basic math completely go over your heads?
If a run is going for 30 minutes, it means there are some REALLY underperforming DPS. Which is the EXACT scenario that the person who was talking about this gave - a case where the DPS were performing at about 800-1,000 DPS (Which is pathetic AND underperforming, ESPECIALLY on AoE-bias pulls with those jobs they mentioned.)
If the healer is doing 0 DPS, and the run is taking 30 minutes because you have two DPS doing 800-1000 DPS. And you know what, if I'm bias and saying the tank is doing 800 DPS too? (crazy. I'm going to give you bias). Then that means that in 30 minutes, you did 2800 DPS.
2800 DPS = 168,000 Damage per minute. 30 mintues = 5,040,000 Damage needs to be done.
Ok. Let's add in our healer's DPS. Let's ay 1k, since that was the upper-level that healer gave.
1,000 + 1,000 + 1,000 + 800 = 3,800 DPS
5,040,000 Damage / 3,800 DPS = 1,326/60 = 22.10 minutes. Let's be fair and say "23 minutes."
Strange how it shows that it's "More than just a minute" even with numbers woefully bloated to favor against the arguement.
Sorry this just... gets under my skin. People underplay the Healer's DPS a lot. A great healer CAN really make a painfully slow 30 minute pull go into the catagory of 20-25 minute runs. And it makes MY life easier as a tank since my cooldowns rotate better when I'm not having to pop EVERY SINGLE ONE in a large pull that's taking too long to kill. @_@
You know what, I'm bored. I wanna take it a step further. I wanna say the DPS were performing average / above average. Let's say 1,500 DPS for the cumulative run (downtime obviously causes it to reduce) and the Healer is at 1000. But let's still say it's as 30 minute run, for whatever reason.
1,500 + 1,500 + 800 = 3800 DPS = 228,000 DPM * 30 = 6,840,000 damage done in 30 minutes.
1,500 + 1,500 + 800 + 1,000 = 4,800 DPS.
6,840,000/4,800 = 1,425 / 60 = 23.75. Still a reduction of 6 minutes. -
05-11-2016, 01:09 AMThunda_Cat_SMASH
You just proved my point of healer DPS being ridiculously overpowered compared to the rest of the jobs though, making any contribution from the DPS/tanks meaningless.
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05-11-2016, 01:18 AMCnidarianWhile I agree with you that a good healer can easily shave more than just a few minutes off a dungeon run. I have to point out a flaw in your math. Each dungeon has essentially a fixed amount of damage that can be dealt (some variation on this due to different boss mechanics which spawn adds). In you example, assuming you use the same dungeon as a reference point, you can't clear the dungeon in one instance with 5 million damage dealt and in the next run, clear the same dungeon while dishing out 6.8 million damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
However, taking this into account you are still correct in how much time can be shaved, just your approach is off a little.
Say the healer in your second scenario did not dps at all, 1,500 + 1,500 + 800 = 3,800 group dps. This is the same math in your first example resulting in a run of 22.10 minutes (say 22 to be conservative for how much healer dps reduces dungeon time).
Now lets take 5,040,000 damage as a baseline for how much total damage can be dealt in a dungeon and assume the healer did 1000 dps along with the rest of the party performing as per your example. That yields 4,800 dps as you pointed out.
5,040,000 / 4800 = 1,050 / 60 = 17.5 minutes (assume 18). So 22 - 18 = 4 minutes saved by a healer doing "high" dps.
End result as others have mentioned is that a healer dpsing at a relatively high level will save more than just a minute or two. -
05-11-2016, 01:24 AMEidolonWhat? How do you even get that from those numbers? First of all, if you're comparing the two runs (In terms of the Damage Dealers themselves), the simple fact is that you shouldn't be. I wasn't comparing the difference of the Damage Dealers, I was comparing the difference of the healer. The fact that the max HP went up for the 30 minute example should show that (That's why there's the 1-2 minute discrepency in difference for the healer, they still speed it up by adding the damage, they just don't speed it up -as much-.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
If anything, the Damage Dealers have the greatest potential for impact because we have the highest upper-limit.
Heck, I'll take an AntiTower I just did on my DRG with an awesome AST and DRK it was an 18:22 run, combined.
Me: 1,501
BLM: 973
DRK: 537
AST: 524 (But they fed me cards so I love them forever ;-; you will be missed, sexiest of AST's <3)
Combined DPS: 3,535
18:22 run = x1,102 seconds.
total mob HP: 3,895,570 HP (18:22)
Now let's remove the healer.
3,895,570 / 3011 DPS = 1293.78/60 = 21 minutes
The healer sped the run up by at least 3 minutes. Know how else we could speed a run up by at least 3 minutes? If the Black Mage did high damage, if the tank did higher damage.
Stop trying to make this an "Us vs. them" for "Healer DPS is overpowered." Their DPS is part of the team.
yea, I didn't cross those two examples. Moreso, it was to comparatively show that even with high DPS, a healer will still save time (Of more than 1-2 minutes), and I actually somewhat rectified this in the next one where I give a bit of anecdotal evidence (Personal experience isn't the best example of proof, but it'll serve it's purpose here.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cnidarian
The only thing I could have changed was, as you showed, using the same baseline for HP, which is also something I had considered. But since my Expert started, I didn't have time to add it in. XD I appreciate you doing it for me. -
05-11-2016, 05:10 AMDeeColonHealer dps isn't overpowered, a player who's good at this job can do good dps no matter what their job or role is, the simple fact is most DPS players are mediocre because it's perfectly okay for them to be or else somethingsomething cyberbullying. If a geared and skilled healer is doing close to or more than your DPS and it makes you uncomfortable, get better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
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05-11-2016, 05:52 AMThunda_Cat_SMASH
Which would only be true if I was actually competing against healers in AoE damage as a DPS. Instead, I'm sustaining 1,000 plus DPS as an extremely low geared WHM for an entire run, simply due to how OP healer damage is. There's hardly a reason to take a DPS as is.
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05-11-2016, 06:16 AMEidolonGo ahead and go do a 3-healer run, lemme know how much faster that goes for ya than doing 2 real damage dealers. I can garuntee, there isn't a single healer, AoE or ST, that can out do me as a DRG. But then again, I know my class well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
Your logic is about as flimsy as saying "Well 7 Paladins can do Sephirot EX, so I guess we don't need Damage Dealers!" -
05-11-2016, 06:21 AMMidnightTundraI can't even... What?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
Do you only play with people who don't know how to do their jobs?
Healer DPS is gated around actually having to heal and mana constraints (not so much SCH). You hardly have to heal in EX dungeons and the pulls are well spaced apart for OOC mana regen to kick in. Healer DPS is fine as is, please stop pushing your agenda. You do the same thing on the healer forums. -
05-11-2016, 07:34 AMZanaAmariyoThat's nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
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05-11-2016, 02:20 PMXeonerable_MizuIf I heal a in a dungeon I'm not dpsing unless I feel like it or if its a boss. If 2 dps combined cant make trash go at a decent rate I'm not gonna be turned into a pseudo dps to compensate for a lack thereof as long as you're not dead on the floor and theres no debuffs on you I'm doing my job if they don't like that feel free to kick me and wait on another healer either way no penalty for me. This whole healers have to dps to make runs go faster is ridiculous if it aint an extreme primal or savage I aint doing it end of story. I know a lot of Healers feel the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Settiesama
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05-11-2016, 02:22 PMXeonerable_Mizuwhoopdee do for youQuote:
Originally Posted by DeeColon
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05-11-2016, 04:07 PMbirdy_reene
I think its funny your pissing and moaning about healers not dpsing, because it costs you an average of 3 minutes.
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05-11-2016, 04:17 PMReynhart
It's funny that, for the sake of proving how healer's DPS is very important, no one pointed out that if your healer is doing 1000 and your DPS are doing 1000...then there is clearly something wrong with your DPS
The "bad DPS" card is generally the first thing thrown out in that kind of discussion, but eh, it wouldn't the OF without a clear bias. -
05-11-2016, 04:19 PMJustPlainLucasWith all due respect, you should be dpsing when you're not healing. It's really not that hard, and people do appreciate a healer who isn't just slacking off. It's not about you picking up the slack from the DPS. It's about you giving it your all, just as the other three team members are doing. You have Cleric Stance for a reason, not just when you're soloing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeonerable_Mizu
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05-11-2016, 04:24 PMJustPlainLucasTake that three minutes and multiply it by, say, four dungeons runs a day (Expert, 60, 50, leveling). You got 12 minutes. Times that by 7 days, you got an hour and 12. Times that by 52 two weeks and you get 97 hours. That's over four DAYS of game time a year shaved off by healers helping with the dps. Yeah, sure, an average of three minutes isn't much, but it definitely adds up when you play daily.Quote:
Originally Posted by birdy_reene
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05-11-2016, 04:25 PMalimdia
All them bad healers, dps and tanks crying in this thread
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05-11-2016, 05:36 PMYasuhiroI tried just healing once. I get bored shitless and start DPSing if there's nothing to heal it's not hard and we're given offensive spells for a reason. Infact just now I had a healer during the last boss of Anti Tower not do crap when Calcabrina cast Dollhouse they just let one DPS do all the work to free me and the other DPS only healing the minimal damage Calcabrina dishes out. Why not try World of Warcraft? I heard the player base gets super pissy if a healer dishes out damage rather than just healing mindlessly. Not to mention since the dawn of the series damage spells have been a part of the healers arsenal. I love it in dungeons when I get the chance to chuck a few Holy spells in before topping up the tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeonerable_Mizu
And before someone says "what works in a single player game doesn't work in a MMO!"
It obviously does in terms of healers giving out damage, god damn, even Hall of the Novice AND the Conjurer questline says healers should DPS during downtime.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeColon
How to spot the cutscene skippers I guess. -
05-11-2016, 08:35 PMKallera
This is why I generally dont go into how I play. People end up trying to run others out of the game because they don't play it in lockstep with everyone else. I mean I get some are trying to help, and some are just looking out for their own interests, but why is it worth being all passive aggressive about it?
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05-11-2016, 08:46 PMEidolonWell, I cant' speak for everyone, but I definitely did point out that in the scenario of a DPS underperforming (even said as much about the 800-1000 dps'ers), that the impact of a healers dps is even greater. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Not sure who 'you' is, but - I do wanna say, I am a strange guy who genuinely enjoys spending time on the forums and hashing out ideas /discussing things. I do it sometimes before/during RP, I do it while bored, or I do it while waiting in duty finder's que. x3Quote:
Originally Posted by birdy_reene
I think there's a lot of defensive players when it comes to healers adding DPS. Simply put, people want healers to do more just like people want DPS to do their Best DPS, and tanks to do perfect Mitigation / Try to squeeze DPS where possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
However, I don't think anyone will try to run you out of the game. I'm really sorry if that's happened to you before though (Someone genuinely trying to run you out of the game.)
I think a big thing I want to say is, healer DPS needs to be done with Healer Comfort. While Healer DPS can definitely push a run into the league of super-fast speed runs, if the healer isn't comfortable with it they shouldnt' be forced to. I think some healers just need to be able to say, "Hey, I understand that it'd be better if I added some DPS, but I'm not comfortable enough with it yet."
Instead, what we get is "No! The DPS needs to do their job! my job is to heal! I only want to heal! I'm good at it!" It comes off as trying to tell others their playstyle is wrong while simultaneously trying to push things off on others. -
05-11-2016, 09:07 PMMisteThis is definitely something I agree with too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Xeonerable_Mizu said "This whole healers have to dps to make runs go faster is ridiculous"
It isn't really about going faster it's more about doing all you are capable of to help. I know some healers are uncomfortable trying to DPS and heal or don't have enough practice so the tank might die etc and trying to force them is pointless because it'll just make the run even slower; but if you have the skill level with the job to heal and toss DPS at the same time and you purposefully aren't doing it then you aren't doing everything you can to help your team unfortunately. It's kind of like a DRG who knows heavy thrust is good, knows how to use it in their rotation, but just doesn't feel like using it.
I realize not all players on healers are skilled enough to stance dance and I never try to force people but yeah if you know you are skilled enough and just don't do it on purpose it's just fact you aren't doing all you are capable of to help. Mind you a lot of players in DF, like DPS and tank jobs, also don't do all they are capable of so it's kinda meh anyway. It's very hard to make a distinction between "still learning the job/the game" and "just being lazy" unless you start asking questions.
It seems to me, on the forums anyway, that a lot of healers who advocate no dpsing on healer are kind of bitter towards ones that do DPS....Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeonerable_Mizu
Well "whoopdee do for you"....sorry I have fun DPSing as a healer? Le sigh. Unneeded bitterness was unneeded. -
05-11-2016, 09:07 PMrandysquirrelI ran an expert roulette the other day with a similar healer (maybe you or one of your friends?), flash-spam tank and yolo drg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeonerable_Mizu
After first few trash packs I figured I'd go with a similar level of effort, and from then on only spammed bliz3.
Run took around an hour in total.
We can all play "how we want" -
05-11-2016, 11:20 PMReynhartSince it all came out from "If my healer don't DPS, then I'll pursposely die in order to teach him a lesson", if you put "underperforming DPS" on top on that, then the problem is not how the healer plays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
And when you use proper DPS number, I don't think you could gain that much time thanks to the healer, considering that a dungeon in speedrun mode can have a lot of downtime because of the long pulls, where DPS is really low. -
05-12-2016, 01:21 AMXeonerable_Mizu
[QUOTE=Miste;3694696]
It's very hard to make a distinction between "still learning the job/the game" and "just being lazy"[/B] unless you start asking questions.
well I'll take being the supposed lazy healer role then as long as you survive a run with no deaths. Like I said If it aint a boss fight a extreme primal or a Savage run too bad for you aint cleaning up trash for you on top of keeping tank alive and making of for mistakes dps make like standing in aoes.if you like to stance dance in every possible run more power to ya. But a lot of us think dps should be held accountable and it not pushed on us if a run isn't going fast look to your dps that's what they gear towards. cuz when I dps and you die from a spike of damage imma be like ooops I was dpsing too much. Fact of the matter is just cuz I can do something doesn't mean I should have to. Any dps I throw out is a bonus you can call it lazy if you like but whos feelings are you gonna hurt? -
05-12-2016, 01:36 AMXeonerable_MizuQuote:
Originally Posted by randysquirrel
oh yea I think I seen one of your homeboys I my wanderers Palace hm the BLM that only used fire on big trash pulls. Gotta keep him in line man. But in all Seriousness sure if you wanna waste an hour of your time only using blizzard spells by all means go ahead I know I'll stay in the run and get my tomes no matter how bad you want to play to attempt to make a point. I'm Gonna heal you and make sure you don't die and mess it up for the rest of us and at the end when I keep getting these commendations I'll say see was worth it. If a healer feels like just healing through trash no amount of complaining gonna make them change their mind. -
05-12-2016, 03:14 AMAshburyI'd kick a blm that only use blizzard 3, I would not kick a healer that does not dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by randysquirrel
There are different levels of underperformance. -
05-12-2016, 03:23 AMMisteThe use of the word "lazy" was not intended as an insult or trying to hurt your (or anyone elses) feelings (and I apologize if it came off that way).Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeonerable_Mizu
It was used as a general statement to explain my reasoning that it is hard to start judging people on their actions in DF content without actually communicating with them. Which a lot of people don't do (people rarely even type hello).
Some people like to automatically think certain players are lazy but what they really might be is "still learning their job/the game". When people are newer to games or the job they are playing they usually underperform; especially compared to players who are more experienced. Without asking them you would never know if they are a seasoned veteran of the game/job or only been playing it a couple days.