More Horizontal Progression please

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

That is what XIV does already... There are 2 different gear sets at max ilvl each cycle. Now if only the group gear didn't totally replace raid gear each content cycle we could actually GAIN content instead of replacing it.

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I guess I meant in a way that matters

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Originally Posted by Ibi

You can, but in addition to having to either reuse art assets or invest more time developing new art assets (and you'll get people complaining with either choice) that means you're either:
- increasing the loot pools of existing events (which has its own issues), or
- adding more content from which to obtain items (and if they were capable of generating content faster, they already would be, and we probably wouldn't be having this conversation).

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Legit concern. I'd rather this than any of Gold Saucer bth tho

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Actually, your gear really didn't matter when it came to Valkurm invites (or lack thereof). THF itself was a joke in early levels, even with SA and BiS gear. It didn't get any sort of attention from players until Viper Bite, and that was assuming you bothered leveling your dagger skills instead of sticking to the much more superior 1h swords until ~30, which is when dagger started to becoming a little better (mostly due to the type of mobs you fought for that level range).

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#smh you stated it, THF was a joke so you needed the gear to make up for it. SA didn't unlock till 15 so your blind/paralyze blts for pulls+ your WS were the only thing you brought to a party, without the stats to back it, your WS's were garbo.

btw, this was just an example, why am I explaining my "pull out of my ass example" and why are you ripping on it?

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

During my tenure at FFXI. . . I don't recall the grouping requirements being so tight for THE MOTHAFUCIN VALKURM DUNES LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL.
I left around the start of WotG if you're wondering.

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Again an example sheesh

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

You crazy. Leaping boots were necessary for many classes, example THF SATA, only replaced by Hecatomb boots(good luck, we could start another thread about how hard it was to get these at 72). you mustve played when journals came out or something, because if you were a level 12 thf/rng/insert other class trying to get a lvling group in valkurm without proper gear in slots for WS's, #godspeed and hope some JP party takes pity on you for a carry through the grind.

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Cant tell if this guy is high or trolling?

Why not throw in No Astral Rings = No party as well..............

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Originally Posted by Shinsaki

Cant tell if this guy is high or trolling?

Why not throw in No Astral Rings = No party as well..............

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Kinda hurt, and I'm always high, I just saw the thread, posted my relevant experience concerning horizontal progression with the first example that popped in my head, ppl ren with the leaping lizard boots, and... here we are. I apologize if you do not like my points.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

#smh you stated it, THF was a joke so you needed the gear to make up for it. SA didn't unlock till 15 so your blind/paralyze blts for pulls+ your WS were the only thing you brought to a party, without the stats to back it, your WS's were garbo.

btw, this was just an example, why am I explaining my "pull out of my ass example" and why are you ripping on it?

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I'm a very literal person that's why lol. Wasn't intending to be mean or anything with it. It's just that BiS or gear near it really wasn't ever needed, at least not to some mandatory degree. Just like here, having better than necessary gear can save groups in very specific situations, but that's pretty much the extent that it goes, assuming you and the group met some sort of minimum requirement to do it at least.

Writing this post to try and clarify stuff because some people including myself are somewhat confused.

Here are a few links clarifying the differences between different types of gamers.

http://www.gamerheadlines.com/2014/0...y-they-matter/

Casual Gamer

The first, and possibly largest type of gamer is the casual gamer. These are the people that made the Nintendo Wii such a successful console this past generation. They tend to buy only one or two games per year, and sometimes not even that many. Mostly, they purchase party games, or simple time waster games. They have almost entirely moved to the mobile game market, with some still playing Facebook or Zynga games. The WiiU has almost exclusively been marketed towards the casual gaming market, most likely due to the riches Nintendo gained from doing the same with the Wii. This tactic doesn’t seem to be working this generation, however.

Why did this marketing scheme work for the Wii and not the WiiU?

One of the reasons is the mindset and behavior of casual gamers. Casual gamers don’t look up gaming news or seek out ads or YouTube videos to explain, in detail, what the WiiU is, so they have no clue. Many I have spoken to have never even heard of the WiiU, and the ones that have, think it’s a peripheral for the Wii. Two major things cause this problem. One, is that the title is too similar and nonsensical for the casual gamer to distinguish it from the Wii. The other is that Nintendo rarely talks about or shows the console itself, instead, they focus almost exclusively on the gamepad controller. Another reason is the price tag. The original Wii, when launched, was $249.99 in NA, which is affordable for the casual audience, whereas the WiiU was $299.99, which is just slightly too much for this group.

The Wii’s best selling point was it’s motion control. Casual gamers can be scared away by the number of buttons and complex controls of games on the competing consoles, but the concept of motion control, making their movements control the game, felt completely natural and intuitive. Significantly lowering the entry level into gaming, the WiiU gamepad doesn’t have that advantage. Instead, it’s more like a traditional controller, which pushes away the causal audience. Possibly the biggest flaw in Nintendo’s marketing plan is that Nintendo doesn’t realize the current state of the gaming market. With the casual market having moved to smart phones and tablets, the desired demographic simply doesn’t exist in that market anymore.

Softcore Gamer

The second type, and second largest group, of gamer are softcore gamers. They tend to buy two to six games per year, and most of those game are very mainstream, annual titles. They are the reason Call of Duty and Assassin’s Creed sell very well year after year. They tend to purchase the “popular” franchises, stay in their comfort zones, and do whatever their friends are doing. Softcore gamers are often very brand-loyal, defending games or insulting others based on whether or not it’s a franchise they frequently play. They are typically teenage males, but are not exclusively so. Most gamer stereotypes are made about this group, and major media outlets mistakenly think all gamers are like this group. The Xbox One is marketed towards this community.

Given the size of this community, why isn’t Microsoft’s plan working?

It’s pretty obvious that Microsoft markets towards this group. Spokespersons from Microsoft at press conferences and in interviews talk a significant amount about TV and sports. The games most commonly marketed in advertisements along with the console are games such as Call of Duty: Ghosts, Need for Speed: Rivals, and Battlefield 4. Microsoft also uses aggressive marketing tactics, often directly insulting Sony’s PS4, much in the same way as fanboys attack opposing brands. All of which a highly mainstream, popular franchises. Identifying why this marketing ploy hasn’t worked is difficult without describing the next group of gamer.

Hardcore Gamer

The third group of gamers is the hardcore gamer. Hardcore gamers often buy a minimum of four games per year, and are frequently only limited by budget or availability. Hardcore gamers enjoy exploring possibilities, being the early adopters of new consoles or franchises. Hardcore gamers often spend more time than others watching YouTube “Let’s Plays” or watching E3 live streams. Sony is marketing the PlayStation 4 to these gamers.

Why is Sony’s plan so successful?

Sony markets the PS4 as, first and foremost, a game console. Games they show in advertisements are rarely popular titles such as Call of Duty, but unique, intriguing exclusives such as Driveclub, InFamous: Second Son, or The Witness. Sony understands that showing new, interesting titles such as these appeals to the hardcore gamer, making them want to buy the system for these games. The PlayStation 4 is more successful than others because it is marketed to the early adopters. Softcore gamers see that the PS4 is popular, so they buy it, or they know Hardcore gamers personally who tell them to buy the PS4 instead of the Xbox One.

Elitist Gamer

The final and smallest group of gamers is the Elitist. They are possibly the most annoying group. They are often hypercritical of games, and think that if you don’t like a game they enjoy, the only explanation is that you’re just bad at it. They tend to think games should just be difficult, with no difficulty settings. They also tend to be PC gamers, thinking consoles are inherently inferior in every way to the “Master Race” of gaming. They often buy several games per year, like hardcore gamers, but hardly play them, and just play the same two or three obsessively.

Steam machines are already being marketed to this type of gamer.

It’s impossible to be certain whether or not this marketing plan will succeed, but I don’t think it will. Steam machines will most likely cost significantly more than the PS4 and Xbox one, and most elitists can build their own PC’s, or at least know someone who can for a reasonable price. Many gamers who play console games do so because maintaining a high-end PC can be very expensive, and require a lot of knowledge about PC’s, but consoles are easier to use.

Those are the four types of gamer. I personally think only the hardcore and elitist gamer should be called “gamers,” after all, someone who only watches movies on occasion isn’t called a “film buff.”

Regardless of which sort of gamer you are, or how many of you there are, all gamers have an influence in the community, and game developers and console manufactures need to understand this as the gaming community continues to expand.

Mid-Core gamer explanation:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/1...ean_anyway.php

'Mid-core' in a few sentences

"When I think about mid-core, it's really about distilling what you'd consider a 'hardcore' game down to its core essence, without making concessions on production quality, themes and gameplay mechanics. To us, mid-core means making a great, deep game more 'accessible' - both in terms of time (keeping sessions to 5 to 20 minutes, as opposed to hours) and platform access (it should be on many platforms instead of just one at a time)." - Frederic Descamps, general manager of Team Solstice (Solstice Arena), Zynga

"Games that are easy to learn and allow advancement with short gaming sessions, but are more engaging, more competitive and more challenging than other social and casual games. This combination allows mid-core games to reach a wider audience than a hardcore game like an MMO while also attracting players who identify as gamers and are more willing to spend on gaming entertainment." - Janelle Benjamin, SuperData vice president of research

There are 3 classification of gamer in terms of time lifestyle patterns.
(1) Hardcore arranges their schedules around their gaming.
(2) Mid-core arranges their gaming around their daily schedule.
(3) Casual entertains self with games when time presents itself.

Vertical VS Horizontal Progression

Comparing Vertical and Horizontal Progression
http://www.engadget.com/2014/02/05/m...l-progression/

More on Vertical Progression
http://www.engadget.com/2014/02/11/t...stay-relevant/

More on Horizontal Progression
http://www.eqhammer.com/ask-druid/as...al-progression

@Sandpark, those articles are incredibly biased.

As a side note, I'm here *because* it gives the "old days of wow" vibe, from before the atrocity that came post Cataclysm.

Going straight into an old school horizontal system is going to end up alienating most of this games' audience. People are already tired of Alexander, much like they were tired of CT and Coil, and wow players were tired of Seige for 14 months, and y'all want release content to be relevant/borderline mandatory for years?

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Originally Posted by Ibi

And FFXIclopedia indicates that the Leaping (now Bounding) Boots are a <7% drop rate.

People lament the pain of RNG in instances that guarantee 2 or 4 drops every time they're killed. What do you think their reaction to drop rates like that would be?

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I know this is a few pages back but when i came back to the game a month before heavensward. I did went 0/40 in World of darkness on bard body, like it didn't drop in 40 runs. So lets not say FFXI is the only game with RNG stupidness because this game has it as well. If I had to chose between spam a 45-1 hour world of darkness or camping leaping lizzy I would easily take lizzy any day of the week, far less tedious and the gear would last much longer.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Under vertical progression, the developer knows that the items a player is getting within any tier will be made obsolete in six months. As a result, they can set a drop rate such that a player will, on average, get all (or almost all) the gear they need within that six month period, because there will be something new coming in by the time they're done.

Under horizontal progression, the developer knows that the items a player is getting from any particular event could remain relevant for several years. If they set the drop rates the same as they were in the vertical example above, then their player base is done with that particular event in that same six month time frame. So far that's not, in and of itself, a problem.

In both cases, the developer is adding new content at around the six month mark. But where the vertical progression developer doesn't need to pay attention to the old rewards when creating their new event, the horizontal progression developer needs a way to add drops that serve some sort of purpose, while not making the old items obsolete.

If you make the items effectively equivalent, the players are effectively done with the reward from the new event before it even starts. If that's the case, the event needs to be entertaining enough to be worth doing despite the rewards, at which point the event would have worked equally well under a vertical progression system.

If you make the items better than the existing items in some situations, and worse in others, now the player needs to collect an entire second set of items and also hang on to all the old ones. In addition to now needing to carry around twice as much gear, the player isn't really getting any more powerful, they're just switching out one thing for another depending on the situation (and likely still not really having a choice in the matter).

The alternative to this is to make it take much longer to get all the items from any particular event, and then add parallel alternatives through which to (hopefully) obtain other items to fill in the gaps. Each event ends up with a much longer life span, but only because you need to run it more to get the same results.

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The thing about FFXI people act like every event had a sub 5% drop rate. When you really analyze FFXI what really had terrible drop rates? The 3 things that come to mind are dynamis, sea, and salvage. The rest of the game didn't really suffer from massive bad drop rates, sure certain NMs had terrible drop rates (thief knife before the fix) but really the game wasn't really that bad about RNG.

Note i'm talking about 75 content as I quit before they up the level cap.

How is standing around doing nothing for 2+ hours less tedious than actually actively doing something in hopes of a drop?

Yeah I like the guy's post who listed all the things you can do in Final Fantasy XI, and stated what people hated about them... But what people are failing to realize is that all that content was released at different times, and still remained relevant, years apart... Hell in 2014 I ran Dynamis with my Blu solo everyday that I could, just because getting exp in there was upgrading my AF+2 clothes. Yeah I had Seekers of Audolin, but there were NM's to camp with my chick...

I wish people would stop saying this game isn't FFXI, and we should let go of the past... To better ourselves we look at our past mistakes and successes. For Square enix not taking great examples from FFXI and not implementing them is a waste of years and years of data in which they succeeded... Get off of WoW's and this new MMO trend, take a stand and take your game to that next level, where the options of what to do are endless.

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

How is standing around doing nothing for 2+ hours less tedious than actually actively doing something in hopes of a drop?

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Because I didn't have to pay attention and deal with idiots like I did in world of darkness. Besides LL could spawn after 5 minutes of camping, may RNG be with you.

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

How is standing around doing nothing for 2+ hours less tedious than actually actively doing something in hopes of a drop?

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It's not the standing around we remember... It's the waking up in the wee hours of the morning to see if somebody was at your camping spot, hiding around a rock to monitor that man running around killing lizards. Should I come out of invisible and show myself... Should i let him keep killing lizards and stick around to see if leaping lizzy pops? Who is that guy? I wonder how he got that earring? (might I add that is something that never gets wondered around ffxiv, we know how to obtain everything).

And might I add, camping for 2+ hours in hopes of getting that drop, meant you had an item that would last for a very long time, and get a lot of use from it. Over years worth of use, not just I beat Alex regular I got my body peice tokens, and a week later that body peice is avg and damn near useless even though it took me 4 weeks to get it!

Working real hard to camp NM's to upgrade my Law gear to 180 for it to get replaced the second i step in Alex normal, that hard worked upgraded jewelry was outdated within days!! Days!! You know how fast I had to run to those NM's before they died, how I had to keep my ear to the linkshells, and the area shouts... I spent a lot of hours doing that kind of camping too, but I don't use that gear anymore do I? What's the difference?

@Nadirah
Look, I don't care if the game is vertical or horizontal much. The main things I want is:
-All content to stay relevant and non trivial
-Gear to last longer than one patch before being tossed
-More variety of events
-More open world

If vertical can achieve that via Progression server,sidekick, level sync, or some other means, then vertical could work too.
I have yet to see one post besides maybe the EQ post even hinting remotely to that in a vertical based system.

I have fond memories of FFXI, but there is a middle ground between wanting to spend ten years to achieve things or in one or two patches.

I prefer *not* keeping content relevant. I don't like doing old stuff unless it's something I can solo because its outleveled.

Didn't kill Arthas until 2013. Does the fact it wasn't relevant bug me? No.

Was in a realm first kill of Trakanon back when I played EQ2. Did I care the loot was replaced with the next expansion? No.

I don't care that gear isn't relevant later, that it's replaced in a month. I want new things to kill, more often. The sheer thought of having to go camp a level 7 drop at 75 because I need it for some reason is repulsive.

Well you and I have different preferences. But on a side note, look at all the work that goes into creating worlds. People complain about not enough content, well if all the content gets outleveled each patch/expansion, that creates a void because developers have to either develop new content twice as fast or go back and retro update old content.

Just look at FFXIV. Instead of focusing on brand new dungeons and zones totally, we are getting normal/hard/extreme/savage modes of the same areas with a different flavor.

Did I kill every NM in FFXI? No. Does that fact that it was relevant bug me? No

It's not just about not caring if gear isn't relevant later, the world isn't relevant either unless you start over. And by then, hopefully there will still be people needing things when you decide to start over.

FFXI never had an issues of fighting new monsters outside experience points best spot camp parties and it was horizontal. They don't have to do extremes by making level 7 gear applicable to an endgame gear set.

The rule of any offline rpg without new game plus or a same level across all zones is once you get high level, you have seen all the world has to offer. And in an mmo which strives to capture players for thousands of hours, breaking and rebuilding the whole world every patch and expansion is not sustainable.

Which is one reason why so many people mmo hop nowadays.

I'm here because I like what it is. When the game changes to something I don't like, I move on.

It's why after 10 years of both wow and EQ2 I finally moved on... They became things I didn't like.

I like what FFXIV is *now*. Changing it, I'll leave here too.

Probably the most important reason to introduce the odd horizontal progression patch or expansion is to help prevent straining the level system. Eventually, leveling has to be made faster to get people to max level in a reasonable time, and that messes up the pacing of the game. There are some other side effects of raising the level cap, like the inclusion of new, albeit disconnected, zones to the game. It's alright to add a few such zones, but after a while it can start to increasingly isolate players from each other. So any suggestion to add horizontal progression should probably be accompanied with a request to spend time expanding current zones instead of only adding new ones, even if that means having to break it up into several smaller zones that share the same chat.

Both WoW and EQ2 have level bumps that go straight to end game, EQ2's being free of charge and WoW's being a paid service. These were added because players simply didn't want to go through the leveling experience, which became problematic after many years of raising the level cap. So much of WoW is like an abandoned ghost town, it doesn't make sense to follow in its footsteps.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

I'm here because I like what it is. When the game changes to something I don't like, I move on.

It's why after 10 years of both wow and EQ2 I finally moved on... They became things I didn't like.

I like what FFXIV is *now*. Changing it, I'll leave here too.

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Fair enough, at least you stick to your guns. There is probably some people who will leave if it doesn't change. I am not that sore on things atm to up and leave for good myself. Just want to see some changes.

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So much of WoW is like an abandoned ghost town, it doesn't make sense to follow in its footsteps.

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Because leveling via dungeons is faster than overland questing.

New Draenor is empty as well, mostly because the game has you sequestered into your garrison for most of it. The game drastically turned into a facebook game and it's ridiculous.

And I don't know about you, but in a game where leveling alts is possible, after about the 20th I don't want to do it anymore. I've purchased a grand total of 1 level 90. EQ2 even did it first, and they're cheaper! A LOT cheaper. But everyone blames WoW for starting it.-_-

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Because leveling via dungeons is faster than overland questing.

New Draenor is empty as well, mostly because the game has you sequestered into your garrison for most of it. The game drastically turned into a facebook game and it's ridiculous.

And I don't know about you, but in a game where leveling alts is possible, after about the 20th I don't want to do it anymore. I've purchased a grand total of 1 level 90. EQ2 even did it first, and they're cheaper! A LOT cheaper. But everyone blames WoW for starting it.-_-

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I didn't know that this was something to brag about, or even something that doesn't get you ridiculed when you admit it.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

I didn't know that this was something to brag about, or even something that doesn't get you ridiculed when you admit it.

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It isn't. People act like it's the end of the world however.

When I got it, it became my 7th level 100. This is after 11 level 90 characters before. New server, new faction, needed for raiding. My options were: drop 60 bucks on it, or be hassled for two days to actually bothering to level a character of a class I already have. In fact, I actually debated on just transferring my existing druid, but to do that would have cost almost nearly as much($55 USD, 25 for transfer, 30 for faction change, no bundle discounts). Ultimately, it's my money, and I can do it if I want to.

That said, EQ2's are something like 30 or 35, they come with a boatload of AA points, and you get to actually play the character before you put money down for it... a try before you buy feature.

Edit: one of the "selling points" they used for Warlords of Draenor, btw, was the level 90 character boost they added. So everyone that bought that expansion got a "free" 90.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

I didn't know that this was something to brag about, or even something that doesn't get you ridiculed when you admit it.

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Microtransactions have become a common, though despised, thing these days. Had this been a decade ago, you would certainly be tarred and feathered for it. To me, I place these things in the same category as those who complain about something they have full control over not continuing payment for. You do with your money what you want. I'm old enough to know that with how entertainment works these days, there will practically always be something out there for me to throw my money at, and if any given source chooses to go with something I enjoy, my money goes to them for as long as I enjoy it.

"I don't like old content"
Well, it wasn't always old content, and it sure is new for new players and we got lots of them with this expansion and we'll get even more with the next because the jobs will be acessible from the beginning. Keeping old content relevant and adding horizontal progression has nothing to do with endgame raiders or hardcore something, it helps keeping the game alive as a whole. Stop looking at what you don't like and what content will please YOU, try looking more at the game itself.

Personally, I H-A-T-E hard content, hate extremes, I hate Alexander Savage and the damned exclusive mount it gives, I hate having to "progress" trough a fight because I don't have time or patience for that, I'm here to have fun, not a heart attack. Do I complain because they implemented it? No, because it serves and bring fun for players who play the game for that type of content.

It's a matter of being a little less selfish and think "what change we can do now to keep the game relevant years from now"?

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

I prefer *not* keeping content relevant. I don't like doing old stuff unless it's something I can solo because its outleveled.

Didn't kill Arthas until 2013. Does the fact it wasn't relevant bug me? No.

Was in a realm first kill of Trakanon back when I played EQ2. Did I care the loot was replaced with the next expansion? No.

I don't care that gear isn't relevant later, that it's replaced in a month. I want new things to kill, more often. The sheer thought of having to go camp a level 7 drop at 75 because I need it for some reason is repulsive.

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Trakanon's loot was relevant for almost 4 years... lol

That shield effect and other effects worked until they finally nerfed it.


Ill Will from Shard of Hate is still relevant now. However its not much of an upgrade, not even 1% health.

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

How is standing around doing nothing for 2+ hours less tedious than actually actively doing something in hopes of a drop?

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Standing around doing nothing is absolutely horrid and boring. However the loot needs to be worth that grind, right now its not.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Standing around doing nothing is absolutely horrid and boring. However the loot needs to be worth that grind, right now its not.

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People stand around "doing nothing" in FFXIV for MONTHS because they get the top level equips and while some unsub until the next patch, some stay around "doing nothing" at Mor Dhona/Idyllshare. It's no different, and to be honest, it's even worse in FFXIV's case.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

People stand around "doing nothing" in FFXIV for MONTHS because they get the top level equips and while some unsub until the next patch, some stay around "doing nothing" at Mor Dhona/Idyllshare. It's no different, and to be honest, it's even worse in FFXIV's case.

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There are 24 slots in EQ2, and the best in slot pieces were all about 2% drop rates. Each Expansion has about 12-15 new dungeons. With a contested dungeon as well which is easier to get loot but you have to fight other players in the zone to kill the bosses.

However, you could also trade contested loot and "Sell Loot Rights" which means you could trade gold for the item and then leader loot the item to the guy who gives you the gold.

Not only that, there are about 10 raids released as well, raids unlike dungeons though have 10-20% chance to drop the best loot and always drops a fabled item per chest.

Trash in raids also drops some of the best loot, but at a lower rate. However they were worth killing and some of the trash was harder to kill then the bosses because of placement and strats.

That game had the opposite problem of FFXIV, the content released faster then anyone could gear up the previous content and items that were good lasted even at high levels next expansion. For example in RoK I could never touch raid content because I never finished Dungeon Content. I barely got my Mythical before the expansion ended.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Trakanon's loot was relevant for almost 4 years... lol

That shield effect and other effects worked until they finally nerfed it.


Ill Will from Shard of Hate is still relevant now. However its not much of an upgrade, not even 1% health.



Standing around doing nothing is absolutely horrid and boring. However the loot needs to be worth that grind, right now its not.

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Stuff I got off Trak was replaced pretty quickly. Didn't have much lock stuff drop :P

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People stand around "doing nothing" in FFXIV for MONTHS because they get the top level equips and while some unsub until the next patch, some stay around "doing nothing" at Mor Dhona/Idyllshare. It's no different, and to be honest, it's even worse in FFXIV's case.

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I don't stand around and do nothing.

if I don't have something to do at any given time, I *gasp* log off and go do something else.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Microtransactions have become a common, though despised, thing these days. Had this been a decade ago, you would certainly be tarred and feathered for it. To me, I place these things in the same category as those who complain about something they have full control over not continuing payment for. You do with your money what you want. I'm old enough to know that with how entertainment works these days, there will practically always be something out there for me to throw my money at, and if any given source chooses to go with something I enjoy, my money goes to them for as long as I enjoy it.

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Had this been a decade ago, you wouldn't have very much choice in what games were available.

That's another thing folks forget about those older days. There was next to no competition. Everquest was the *only* game of it's type for a while, and XI never got big marketing. Asheron's Call(first one) didn't get much either, and it never really had a big population.

These were niche games. If they had 100k subscribers, they were lucky for the longest time.

Me? If i spend long hours in a game, I want to do it because I'm having fun. Farming rare drops? Not fun. Sitting on my arse waiting on respawns? Not fun. The reason I *don't* play those games is because they felt like a chore. If I don't have a reason to log in every day, great. Gives me an excuse to go outside.

eidt: below:

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

So the 999 roulettes and esoterics farming at Neverreap or Fractal doesn't feel like a chore for you? Well...

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No, actually, it doesn't. Especially since I haven't done it that many times, and I don't "farm" it.

Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to have your esoterics capped in one day. I'm generally done by Saturday.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

The reason I *don't* play those games is because they felt like a chore.

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So the 999 roulettes and esoterics farming at Neverreap or Fractal doesn't feel like a chore for you? Well...

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

So the 999 roulettes and esoterics farming at Neverreap or Fractal doesn't feel like a chore for you? Well...

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It honestly shouldn't of been that way in the first place. There should be at least 3-4 new dungeons and redos of level 50 ones to 60. I'm not asking too much. That is perfectly reasonable for an expansion.

They have more subscribers and are making far more money then EQ2 is, yet producing 25% of the content.

They should have at least 9 remake dungeons (dungeons based on older zones.) and 4 new dungeons with their own unique loot/armor sets and loot tables. Rare items as well.

Each dungeon should have its own armor sets as well, even if its a retexture. However I only really see one set for ALL 2 dungeons.

Heavensward was suppost to be an expansion. I pretty much see an adventure pack. They put too much effort into useless zones that nobody ever goes to. Sorry to sadly say that, but its true. They have beautiful overland zones that are a TOTAL Joke and are unrelevant after you reach level 60.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

I don't stand around and do nothing.

if I don't have something to do at any given time, I *gasp* log off and go do something else.

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The XIV devs were always aware of XI's tendency of this. You see many things in this game implemented to cure this.
Duty finder, fates,changing jobs/skills/gear on the fly, popped NM in 1.0, short duration dungeons, roulette.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Had this been a decade ago, you wouldn't have very much choice in what games were available.

That's another thing folks forget about those older days. There was next to no competition. Everquest was the *only* game of it's type for a while, and XI never got big marketing. Asheron's Call(first one) didn't get much either, and it never really had a big population.

These were niche games. If they had 100k subscribers, they were lucky for the longest time.

Me? If i spend long hours in a game, I want to do it because I'm having fun. Farming rare drops? Not fun. Sitting on my arse waiting on respawns? Not fun. The reason I *don't* play those games is because they felt like a chore. If I don't have a reason to log in every day, great. Gives me an excuse to go outside.

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They weren't niche because they were more boring or easy. It's because they were hardcore.
I consider GTA casual to midcore, it sells millions upon millions, but in terms of playtime I usually set these games down for a good while after beating the main story and twenty hours of destroying stuff. And that is fine since the devs don't make more money by me playing longer since it isn't sub based.

Dark souls is hardcore, not everyone gets into them but it sells around 2 mil or so. You can spend around 200-300 hrs easily playing the game normally.

Both games make money but because there is no sub, how long we play has no consequence on content getting developed. XIV either has to sell millions+ copies per expansion or create deep, relevant, long lasting content to keep people subbing.

If they get lazy and just throw in filler, repetitive content, or padding, gamers today are aware and will unsubscribe eventually if things don't change due to lots of choice today.

Farming rare drops and monsters could be fun and not be just sitting on your arse if done right. Like an actual hunting system with deep mechanics involving tracking, trapping, learning eco systems, meta.
It could be an active and visual system.There could also be a system of interacting where drops could be coaxed by you.

The problem is here there either is no system in place or it is done in a static, menu based % game with not enough resources to keep it being active.

General mmo mentality is:
Consume the main course(story,unlocks,gear)then log off till the next meal.
Not many stay long for the sides(meta,side content,expanded stuff)if the sides are lean, tasteless, or common side items.

The content needs to bring the:
Breadth
Relavence
Engaging
Active
Depth
Time respecting
Honed

Also no bread is good without butter, butter makes everything taste better, butter is variety. :)

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

The XIV devs were always aware of XI's tendency of this. You see many things in this game implemented to cure this.
Duty finder, fates,changing jobs/skills/gear on the fly, popped NM in 1.0, short duration dungeons, roulette.



They weren't niche because they were more boring or easy. It's because they were hardcore.
I consider GTA casual to midcore, it sells millions upon millions, but in terms of playtime I usually set these games down for a good while after beating the main story and twenty hours of destroying stuff. And that is fine since the devs don't make more money by me playing longer since it isn't sub based.

Dark souls is hardcore, not everyone gets into them but it sells around 2 mil or so. You can spend around 200-300 hrs easily playing the game normally.

Both games make money but because there is no sub, how long we play has no consequence on content getting developed. XIV either has to sell millions+ copies per expansion or create deep, relevant, long lasting content to keep people subbing.

If they get lazy and just throw in filler, repetitive content, or padding, gamers today are aware and will unsubscribe eventually if things don't change due to lots of choice today.

Farming rare drops and monsters could be fun and not be just sitting on your arse if done right. Like an actual hunting system with deep mechanics involving tracking, trapping, learning eco systems, meta.
It could be an active and visual system.There could also be a system of interacting where drops could be coaxed by you.

The problem is here there either is no system in place or it is done in a static, menu based % game with not enough resources to keep it being active.

General mmo mentality is:
Consume the main course(story,unlocks,gear)then log off till the next meal.
Not many stay long for the sides(meta,side content,expanded stuff)if the sides are lean, tasteless, or common side items.

The content needs to bring the:
Breadth
Relavence
Engaging
Active
Depth
Time respecting
Honed

Also no bread is good without butter, butter makes everything taste better, butter is variety. :)

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Sandbox games are really (were) the only MMOs that can really offer that depth and longevity. Honestly people these days do not want to put time in their games, and why should they be stronger then someone who does? So many games these days have daily caps, daily quests, uninteresting stories and plots.

I have 800+ hours clocked in Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2.
I also have 700 hours clocked in RUST. (Survival Horror.)

What makes those games so good?

They don't feel like its tedious to grind and play the game. The grinding is actually engaging and fun. It challenges me.

Now, say you got to a quarantined zone. There are zombies everywhere however these zombies in the infested and disease ridden buildings drop some really cool stuff you want, a grind if you will. However! If you do not pay attention to them they swarm you, and if your not with a party of at least 5 people you will usually not make it past the front gate.

Now, not only that. The people in your group and party can also wipe the group by making mistakes. Like pulling too many zombies or making too much noise. If you wipe you start all over as well.

Now, NOT only that. Other groups near you can attract more zombies if they don't play well, which could affect YOUR party too!

Now.. DOES This content, even though your grinding.. does it seem like something /BORING/ and /REPETITIVE/? NO! Your not bored at all! Your trying desperately to stay alive and get your loot!

@Sandpark

I think the entire issue can be summed up by the developers paying too close attention to WoW and its formula. Even though they never set out with the express objective of creating a "WoW Killer," the core game is set up in the exact same way as other games that did attempt to be "WoW Killers." WoW was only able to throw on loads of polish to its content because of its insane budget. FFXIV is a smaller operation, and should be based on games that are within its operational budget. WoW itself is a kind of evolutionary impasse between a real time tactical RPG and an action game. No action MMORPG has been able to maintain a subscription model despite being well received, so the natural direction FFXIV should take is towards the RTT RPG. There haven't been any major attempts at a more strategic experience, so there is still potential in that direction.

Not to mention, Yoshida's comment about things strongly trending towards F2P can only be said to be true of themepark MMORPGs that take on the form of World of Warcraft.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Sandbox games are really (were) the only MMOs that can really offer that depth and longevity. Honestly people these days do not want to put time in their games, and why should they be stronger then someone who does? So many games these days have daily caps, daily quests, uninteresting stories and plots.

I have 800+ hours clocked in Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2.
I also have 700 hours clocked in RUST. (Survival Horror.)

What makes those games so good?

They don't feel like its tedious to grind and play the game. The grinding is actually engaging and fun. It challenges me.

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I second this, as I've logged ridiculous hours into Path of Exile (over 600), dying repeatedly, perfecting builds, and cleaving my way through monsters on an ever changing landscape.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Sandbox games are really (were) the only MMOs that can really offer that depth and longevity. Honestly people these days do not want to put time in their games, and why should they be stronger then someone who does? So many games these days have daily caps, daily quests, uninteresting stories and plots.

I have 800+ hours clocked in Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2.
I also have 700 hours clocked in RUST. (Survival Horror.)

What makes those games so good?

They don't feel like its tedious to grind and play the game. The grinding is actually engaging and fun. It challenges me.

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If you design a game catered to those who have a lot of time to spend a given night, your game is set to being a niche title at best.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

If you design a game catered to those who have a lot of time to spend a given night, your game is set to being a niche title at best.

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Not really Niche. That type of game-play is really popular in animes. ;)

They just think its "ONLY IN VIRTUAL REALITY." like SAO...

Its not Niche, because there has not been an MMO designed for that style of gameplay for... 11-13 years now?

Nothing really like it at the moment.

It can't be niche when there is nobody doing it.


Honestly, that is a popular opinion. However, your wrong.

Statistics do point that you are correct, however the new generation of gamers in an MMO have never really been challenged by anything. They never had a challenged thrusted in their face. They never had a sense of fear when leaving their towns or dangers from the world.

Make a game and treat it like a WORLD INSTEAD of a game.


Your "Popular" game idea, has me logging in BORED doing NOTHING for HOURS because THERE IS NO CONTENT. We have DONE it all. NOTHING challenges me. NOTHING makes me AFRAID. Bosses don't scare me. EVERYTHING IS A CHORE. Yet this is.. fun?

The idea of sitting for 7 months waiting for the next update may sound fun to you. However if you make a game that takes hours upon hours and challenges you... your game will last longer.

What you don't realize, is the popular game is short lived. Until the next "WOW" comes out and everyone leaves and flocks to it because its new and shiny. Now your game is dead. Meanwhile, the "Niche" game still has its same subscribers.

@Nektulos-Tuor
When the world reacts to you, it is hardly ever the exact same experience, playing with others adds even more variables. Even if the most beautiful,elaborate dungeon was created, if the world and it's inhabitants don't react to you, it will eventually become less dynamic or interesting.

Pulling enemies or sneaking by them in FFXI was one activity that rewarded or punished you for bad timing. Would it be wise to apply it to the whole game? That would be the users opinion. I say yes and no depending on circumstances. For instance, requiring this cleverness around fed-ex back and forth quest or fates, I would say no.

But if the situation was trying to infiltrate a highly guarded section of some colossal ruins, then it adds context,dynamics, and immersion to gameplay.

Solid Snake knows what these situations are like. :)

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

@Nektulos-Tuor
When the world reacts to you, it is hardly ever the exact same experience, playing with others adds even more variables. Even if the most beautiful,elaborate dungeon was created, if the world and it's inhabitants don't react to you, it will eventually become less dynamic or interesting.

Pulling enemies or sneaking by them in FFXI was one activity that rewarded or punished you for bad timing. Would it be wise to apply it to the whole game? That would be the users opinion. I say yes and no depending on circumstances. For instance, requiring this cleverness around fed-ex back and forth quest or fates, I would say no.

But if the situation was trying to infiltrate a highly guarded section of some colossal ruins, then it adds context,dynamics, and immersion to gameplay.

Solid Snake knows what these situations are like. :)

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Honestly. If you did it in waves. Starting off Slow and getting bigger. It can be fun.

Outside the city its not very dangerous, until night time. Then you have wild wolves actively hunting your group. The more and more you get away from civilization the more dangerous, scary and creepy the world gets. However the more your rewarded for your effort and exploration.

You can still be casual and enjoy the game. However you will never see the same world as people who branch off the safe paths, nore will you ever be as strong as an adventurer who does..

The Safe Path:
Daily Quests.
Quests and Quested Gear.
Cleared out Dungeons. Dungeons cleared off by the Branched Path, making them a lot safer. Casual Gear from it.
Light Group, Solo Content.
More Static part of the World.
20% of the World.

The Branched off Path:
No Quests or daily quests.
A time consuming Contested Dynamic World.
Cannot be soloed, except by highly skilled individuals who explored and have some of the hardest to get gear.
Everything you do makes the world more dangerous, or safer.
Things you do in the game affect the "Safe Path.", meaning the "Safe" path is no longer safe and a new "Safe" path must be made.
You as an adventurer "make" the safe paths for casual players.
You are MUCH stronger then the average player, for branching off into the dangerous world.
You can make yourself almost ten times stronger then the average player.
80% of the World.


The adventures from the Branched Path go around the world, getting the best loot and making it safer for casual players to go in and get their loot and do the dungeons. They make the safe paths and they make the world safer.

Now, you have a dynamic world where casual and hardcore players are married together.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Velhart

If you design a game catered to those who have a lot of time to spend a given night, your game is set to being a niche title at best.

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There is no need to cater, if it had to then yes, the game is deemed hardcore and played by less players.

There is an avenue for different playstyles, and one playstyle doesn't have to consume the whole game. Instanced dungeons are great for their initial purpose. They don't have to consume the game, there is a place for open dungeons and places requiring savy teamwork dynamics besides boss gimmicks.

Also they don't have to be 2-8 hour marathons in length, but a few areas like that here and there are welcome.

To keep the long marathons from being casual or midcore unfriendly. They could have waypoints/save points in conjunction with duty finder. Say you play 1.5 hrs and you are beat, the content remembers your last save point, you leave group and do something else. When you feel like continuing the descent into hell, you queue up and it drops you into a group at waypoint X. Or you could do it with premade and have some FC content to do together.