Instanced Raids Unveiled!

Raid, doesn't necessarily mean 30 people, It could very well mean 4-8 people Vsing 200-300 mobs ( Monsters being the Raid part) but that's how I look at it

I think the whole "massive" aspect of the term MMO will come more in to play if the game manages to pick up and gain more players than it loses. As it is now 4-8 player parties are perfect, in my humble opinion.

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

On the JP forums someone said... isn't 4-8 only instance dungeons basically same as MO and not MMO?

I must agree.. how is 4-8 players instance dungeon.. a RAID? or a MMO?

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Why exactly should we care about the use of a term in other MMORPGs?

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Even without a cap, you wouldn't be playing content "appropriate to your level" anyway. Blazing through a rank 25 dungeon as a rank 50 character is not playing content "appropriate to your level".

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I agree that it isn't appropriate to my level, but I would be MORE likely to run it and enjoy the content without the cap rather than play my class 25 levels below what it actually is. That is why capping the low-level dungeon would be penalizing higher level players rather than rewarding them.

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

On the JP forums someone said... isn't 4-8 only instance dungeons basically same as MO and not MMO?

I must agree.. how is 4-8 players instance dungeon.. a RAID? or a MMO?

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Sure, it's not that "massive", but it's still multiplayer content, and that doesn't really bother me.

In another thread, I outlined some examples of content that is open-world and could be possible for "massive" amounts of people to partake in.

LINK: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post187299

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Another type of addition that I think would make the environment more interesting:

Another new MMO, Rift, has random events in which a portal opens up at some place on the map, and monsters pour out. Players then group up and kill off the monsters.

I was thinking that this kind of concept could be incorporated into FF14, but altered in a way to fit the world and add excitement.

My inspiration for this also comes from FF11, specifically, Fort Ghelsba. I would love partying with my friends and having an adventure - penetrating the stronghold's defenses and working our way in and defeating the mobs within. It was always the same everytime, however, and there wasn't really any real impact on the world. Kill all the orcs one day, they'd be back in a few minutes anyway, no big deal.

So here's the plan:

Once every few days, a beast tribe hamlet is spawned at some remote area of the map in each region (kobold hamlet for la noscea, amaljaa hamlet for thanalan, ixal hamlet in the black shroud, along with goblin, qiqirn, reaver, and bandit hamlets as well)

Each beast tribe hamlet isn't just some temporary 5 minute event, but rather a decently sized town full of enemies to fight. A "mini Fort Ghelsba", so to speak.

Players go in, fight a bunch of mobs, rescue NPCs, search for loot, seek out boss monsters, destroy structures, etc.

Players who had a hand in the beast-tribe hamlet destruction are further rewarded with faction points, fame points, achievement points, whatever.

Hamlet spawn locations are random, or picked by the devs, and put in remote areas, without telling anyone, so that players have to actively explore the world if they want to find any new beast tribe towns. (Hey now, this would be pretty fun to do if we had chocobos, huh? ( http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/10792-DevTalk-Chocobo-Thread.-Riding!-Raising!-Racing!-You-Know-You-Want-Your-Fix ) :)

Rank caps are put in place so that Rank 50 players can't just ransack a Rank 30 beast town in 10 minutes. Temporary level-matching system in place so that high rank players can still participate in lower ranked assaults.

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I think the word raid dungeon was only used in the english letter. That and to bring up WoW again...I didnt see people complaining about small sets of players cutting through instance dungeons. Or even XI with assault type things.

Im sure there will be much larger instance dungeons in the future, but these are just normal dungeons, not end game super challenging things.

Anyone with a brain would easily understand and approve them introducing group-based dungeons (that currently aren't ing game) before they introduce dungeons for multiple groups.

honestly i dount have much love for content for extremely large parties, takes forever to organize, or requires creating massive groups with loot policy like signing a multimillion dollar contract.
I rem trying to organize 60 people back in early dynamis days, damn ill pass.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Of course, however it never went as far as bouncing back and forth saying, "oh this is how its going to be" lines yes I have seen some in this thread like. for instance " Toto-Rak looks exactly the same as Tam/Muy" What proof is there 1 Picture of a particular spot? I really can't form a well thought out Opinion with only 1 picture and a back story of the place.

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But my entire argument here isn't that i'm assuming the entire area will be a paste of existing zones, my argument is in defense of some of us expressing our lack of enthusiasm based on what was shown. It's really simple, some people are taking our opinions and spinning it into trolling or being outright negative.

If the areas are in fact creative from an artistic and visual point, and a sample of that was shown, I'd genuinely be excited. Yet again for what seems like the 100th time, the fact remains the two areas shown in the preview indicate areas that look inspired (god help me if i used the word copy-paste or rehash...) by areas that already exist in the game. Am I claiming the dungeons WILL be? negative. I simply don't know what the final product will be and it'd be ignorant of me to assume otherwise.

Why is that difficult to understand? :P I'm not impressed with the preview, end of story. I'm open to being impressed with the final product, but i'm not impressed with the preview *loop*

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

I agree that it isn't appropriate to my level, but I would be MORE likely to run it and enjoy the content without the cap rather than play my class 25 levels below what it actually is. That is why capping the low-level dungeon would be penalizing higher level players rather than rewarding them.

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Do you at least agree that from a game design perspective - the lack of a level cap kills challenge and replayability, and thus the shelf life, or "freshness", so to speak, of the new content?

The only time someone is ever going to play the rank 25 dungeon AS a rank 25 class (i.e. at a rank appropriate for what the content was designed for) is when they are a noobie and don't have any other class higher than that. A majority of the time, once a player has a class that is higher than rank 25, he is going to run the dungeon at that higher rank just because it would be easier and faster that way. When there are tangible rewards and loot on the line, no one is going to purposely gimp themselves if they don't have to.

In the entirety of any particular player's life in FF14, the period of time where his highest battle class is only rank 25 is a very, very small time period. Once the player achieves a high rank and is allowed to blaze through low rank content, that content is no longer interesting and the players clamor for more, thus putting even more pressure on the devs.

With a rank cap, the content is kept challenging for all players, no matter how many high rank classes they may have, thus extending the replayability of the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

You know what else was copied?

In FFXI the Spires, or rather crags that you can enter were of similar design because they were built based around cermet and by the same people. E.g Delkfutts tower looked like Fei`yin and Palace of Velugannon/Shrine of Ru`Avitau, no one really complained about the look but rather the "puzzles" inside >.>

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This is untrue, coming from someone whom has visited both in the last 2 weeks. While the outside architecture looks like they are similarly placed those two specific locations, Delkfutts and Fei'Yin, are very different internally and externally. Delkfutts is placed within a mountain with many winding staircases leading upward. Fei'Yin goes downward and has crumbling surfaces everywhere, section blocked off by fallen walls, the side rooms.

The areas you are thinking of are probably the 3 main teleport areas. Those have relatively identical design to each other with very tiny differences that mean almost nothing. That being said you can't compare XI areas to XIV, the tech for XIV is far more advanced so they should be able to and have the drive to make more original areas to abuse that.

People have glitched into the new areas and are posting pics and vids and sadly they look they same as current areas. I am hoping that those are just place holders and it is changed upon release. I'm more excited about the music in those areas ^_^

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

On the JP forums someone said... isn't 4-8 only instance dungeons basically same as MO and not MMO?

I must agree.. how is 4-8 players instance dungeon.. a RAID? or a MMO?

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This is a new generation of MMO gamers -- the ones who prefer solo whenever possible. This is the outcome of that. I rather like a lot of people fighting together, but the general populace doesn't which is why most MMO these days are pushing for solo play.

I'm going to **** myself if these need Faction points.

Glorified leves -.-

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Do you at least agree that from a game design perspective - the lack of a level cap kills challenge and replayability, and thus the shelf life, or "freshness", so to speak, of the new content?

The only time someone is ever going to play the rank 25 dungeon AS a rank 25 class (i.e. at a rank appropriate for what the content was designed for) is when they are a noobie and don't have any other class higher than that. A majority of the time, once a player has a class that is higher than rank 25, he is going to run the dungeon at that higher rank just because it would be easier and faster that way. When there are tangible rewards and loot on the line, no one is going to purposely gimp themselves if they don't have to.

In the entirety of any particular player's life in FF14, the period of time where his highest battle class is only rank 25 is a very, very small time period. Once the player achieves a high rank and is allowed to blaze through low rank content, that content is no longer interesting and the players clamor for more, thus putting even more pressure on the devs.

With a rank cap, the content is kept challenging for all players, no matter how many high rank classes they may have, thus extending the replayability of the dungeon.

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Sorry I don't, because I am not going to play or replay a dungeon that 1.) Forces me to play it as a r25 and 2.) Only has gear that is medium in range and has nothing else to offer me. At r50, the only reason I have to play the r25 dungeon is for fun, and having that dungeon restricted isn't fun for me. At r50, there is no reason I can't choose to a) run it on level 25 class just for fun or b) steamroll it as a r50 just for fun. The only purpose I have to play the r25 dungeon is for fun and the more limitation you put on that dungeon equals the less fun I will have.

Now, if it was for the sake of progression, then my opinion would be different.

I hope to god there not like wow dungeon --> Enter ---> kill everything --> go to boss ---> done

I want more of a nyzule isle or something new that you have to do puzzle to get the dungeon done within 60min. Something fun that change every time to make players want to enter again because wow dungeon you get bored of doing it over and over just for a dam 1 gear you missing that would be gone within 1-3 levels lol.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Now, if it was for the sake of progression, then my opinion would be different.

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Acquiring new gear for your mid-rank classes from the dungeon is a form of progression.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Acquiring new gear for your mid-rank classes from the dungeon is a form of progression.

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Character Development

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Acquiring new gear for your mid-rank classes from the dungeon is a form of progression.

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Its not progression if I don't need to do it. I can level any class to 50 without ever having to run a dungeon. Heck, I could level to 50 with onion gear for all I care. The only class I am interested in progressing is my main. Everything else is just for vanity's sake.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Character Development

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Yes, I know he was speaking in terms of SP gain, but getting better gear is as much an integral part of the process of character development as is SP gain.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

I hope to god there not like wow dungeon --> Enter ---> kill everything --> go to boss ---> done

I want more of a nyzule isle or something new that you have to do puzzle to get the dungeon done within 60min. Something fun that change every time to make players want to enter again because wow dungeon you get bored of doing it over and over just for a dam 1 gear you missing that would be gone within 1-3 levels lol.

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But thats all any dungeon is in any RPG stand-alone or MMO O_O

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

The only class I am interested in progressing is my main. Everything else is just for vanity's sake.

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You need skills from other classes to make your main class better. Rank 50 PGL with no skills from other classes is gimp.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but in FFXI in CoP, they didn't cap you until the boss fight on Promy runs right?

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but in FFXI in CoP, they didn't cap you until the boss fight on Promy runs right?

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The whole area was capped. They recently removed it though.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

You need skills from other classes to make your main class better. Rank 50 PGL with no skills from other classes is gimp.

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But again, I don't need the mid-rank NM gear to make my leveling any easier. I can get 50 more efficiently if I ignore dungeons and spent all my time running leves and grinding mobs. I don't need optimal equipment for that.

IF you want to see the R25 dungeon hold true to it's ranks, what SE needs to do is give good SP in the dungeon. THEN I would be encouraged to run it at r25.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Yes, I know he was speaking in terms of SP gain, but getting better gear is as much an integral part of the process of character development as is SP gain.

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Yep, as long as your doing something to Making you character Stronger/cool looking/Best stat gear/sp gain however you want to make your Character improve, is Character Development, as you said doesn't mean always mean get sp to get your Character somewhere =). Besides I'm sure the monsters you kill in the Dungeons will yield sp, I'm 99% sure of that,always leave 1% in case of failure :D.

Also, we will be getting information on these quest hubs too as well sometime this week or early next week.

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Originally Posted by Reaux

The whole area was capped. They recently removed it though.

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For a reason, basically everyone was sick of those caps. Funny that some would like them back.

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Originally Posted by Reaux

The whole area was capped. They recently removed it though.

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Only Area that was uncapped back in those days was the "Spire of Mea/Dem/Holla" which was like a meeting place to discuss battle plans before entering into the capped boss fight.

COP= Best Expansion/storyline

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Originally Posted by Abriael

For a reason, basically everyone was sick of those caps. Funny that some would like them back.

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OR becuase they wanted to speed people's progression for them to get to WoTG and Aby areas ^_^

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Originally Posted by Abriael

For a reason, basically everyone was sick of those caps. Funny that some would like them back.

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actually the main reason they removed those caps was because they added high level monsters to the areas.

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Originally Posted by Reaux

But thats all any dungeon is in any RPG stand-alone or MMO O_O

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Not really FFXI

Nyzule Isle there 1-100 Floor each floor have would get a random puzzle to win the level.

Kill X mob to win
Kill Same type of mobs
turn on lights at the same time
turn only one lamp on
Turn lamp in order can be 3-6 lamps you had to turn on and each member of the party would fine one.

One of the dev post saying we be doing puzzle and there more thing to do within the dungeon i hope that true. WoW type dungeon are dam boring i got bored of them when i got level 60 it's holy s*** again with this bulls***.

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Originally Posted by Physic

actually the main reason they removed those caps was because they added high level monsters to the areas.

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I like this reason better, lets go with that.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Not really FFXI

Nyzule Isle there 1-100 Floor each floor have would get a random puzzle to win the level.

Kill X mob to win
Kill Same type of mobs
turn on lights at the same time
turn only one lamp on
Turn lamp in order can be 3-6 lamps you had to turn on and each member of the party would fine one.

One of the dev post saying we be doing puzzle and there more thing to do within the dungeon i hope that true. WoW type dungeon are dam boring i got bored of them when i got level 60 it's holy s*** again with this bulls***.

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Yes I forgot the variation of "Kill all" can be "kill some" and the occasional block puzzle. I do prefer puzzles though. If I wanna wail on mobs I will just do those same 3 leves over and over and over....kinda like now.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

For a reason, basically everyone was sick of those caps. Funny that some would like them back.

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Yeah it was pretty rough but for the most part CoP was doable with even odd-ball group setupuds "Aside from wtf snoll" It's too bad they cut out the challenge of getting to the fights.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

IF you want to see the R25 dungeon hold true to it's ranks, what SE needs to do is give good SP in the dungeon. THEN I would be encouraged to run it at r25.

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If they're anything like leves, then dungeons probably would be a decent source of SP. If they weren't, the high rank dungeons would be only available at rank 50, not rank 45. If you can do the end-game dungeons at rank 45, it allows you to gain SP in the process that would go towards your character's level progression.


Anyway, answer this question:

Which course of action is more satisfying to a player who wants to get new dungeon-only gear for his rank 25 Gladiator.


Option 1: Kill everything super fast as a rank 50 Marauder, then "give" (so to speak) the gear to his rank 25 class.

or

Option 2: Complete the dungeon as a rank-appropriate rank 25 Gladiator, and "earn" the gear through hard work.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

I hope to god there not like wow dungeon --> Enter ---> kill everything --> go to boss ---> done

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Wasn't there a dev post on the JP forum that said it's "Enter ---> Kill boss ---> Play Triple Triad with the remaining mobs ---> Done"?

No, but wouldn't that be nice?

Dungeons don't need to give any SP. I understood it in 11 because we had far more penalties for dying....but here the worst that can happen is needing to walk back to a location.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

If they're anything like leves, then dungeons probably would be a decent source of SP. If they weren't, the high rank dungeons would be only available at rank 50, not rank 45. If you can do the end-game dungeons at rank 45, it allows you to gain SP in the process that would go towards your character's level progression.


Anyway, answer this question:

Which course of action is more satisfying to a player who wants to get new dungeon-only gear for his rank 25 Gladiator.


Option 1: Kill everything super fast as a rank 50 Marauder, then "give" (so to speak) the gear to his rank 25 class.

or

Option 2: Complete the dungeon as a rank-appropriate rank 25 Gladiator, and "earn" the gear through hard work.

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First, this question has 2 parts. The first is why would a rank 50 MRD need rank 25 GLD gear? The second part is, it depends on what kind of player you are talking about. In my case, if I just wanted some cool looking gear for the sake of just having it, I would run it as a 50. If I was looking for a challenge and I was bored of the rank 50 dungeon, I would run it as a 25.

You may not feel the same way, but what is the point in penalizing Player A that would have just as much fun running through a dungeon designed for a level 25 on his rank 50?

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Originally Posted by Reaux

Yes I forgot the variation of "Kill all" can be "kill some" and the occasional block puzzle. I do prefer puzzles though. If I wanna wail on mobs I will just do those same 3 leves over and over and over....kinda like now.

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60min and each time it's diff puzzle to win the area i love it that make me want to go in there 500times because it fun. In ffxi Nyzule Isle i did it over 200times and enjoy it :) when you do it with good friend or just random people it still fun like hell. i just hope they bring that over into ffxiv but yoshi-p did play a lot of blizzard game am hoping he does not make it into a wow clone dungeon that be dumb and boring i get bored of it within 10min of playing it. But seeing how there a time limit i think they would be a puzzle type game and more to it then wow. WoW you had no time limit and just killing :) so i hope it going to be fun.,

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

First, this question has 2 parts. The first is why would a rank 50 MRD need rank 25 GLD gear? The second part is, it depends on what kind of player you are talking about. In my case, if I just wanted some cool looking gear for the sake of just having it, I would run it as a 50. If I was looking for a challenge and I was bored of the rank 50 dungeon, I would run it as a 25.

You may not feel the same way, but what is the point in penalizing Player A that would have just as much fun running through a dungeon designed for a level 25 on his rank 50?

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You're not being penalized. It was designed for 25 for fun/gear. You may not like it but it is their design choice for these dungeons. But, just because you cannot run it on a 50 doesn't mean you are being punished for it. As for a rank 50 MRD doing it as a 25GLD, I think the implication in Renta's post was that you were also leveling GLD as an example and that your rank 25 job you are leveling could use it.

Like keeping old gear from a job you previously leveled or got by other means and using on your lower level job that you are messing around on.

Purpose of Time Limt:

-People won't get all the gear or whatever lies in there in a day or 2
-Encourages more playtime runs within those Dungeons
-Gives reason to keep going to that Dungeon to get that gear you always wanted thus making it more Rewarding

Without a Time Limit:

-People will bum rush the Dungeons till they completed everything in there within a day or 2
-When they finish they will complain that they have everything and want SE to pump out more Content now
-Less initiative to want to do Dungeons because it will get old without having a need to go there
-The items you get won't be nearly as rewarding if you just rush everything

Also Reguarding Grand Companies:

-These Dungeons are in Relation to the Grand Companies please do make note of that as to why there's a time limit
-In, the future whenever Grand Companies come out (probably this Summer) That 60 min time Limit may just be there for that reason too, for activities within the Dungeon itself.