Please do not lock Jobs to the Weapon Class that unlocks them.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

That is like saying "American Cars use Automatic Transmissions" "Only Automatic Transmissions can be used in American Cars"

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I agree with this, America needs to have automatic only transmission, the sophisticated workings of a manual transmission if far to difficult.

The amount of circular reasoning and semantics dancing in this topic is just over the top. I still think it's FAR too early to be making a suggestion remotely like this, but in the interest of laying things out I'm going to ask you to do something for me.

If you would, in as clear and concise a way as you can achieve, please answer these questions: What is it you want? Why do you think it's important we have it? How will it fit in with current game systems?

Add in any necessary definitions or whatever you need to answer them, but be sure to be clear. If you'd kindly do this for me I'll respond in turn and, hopefully, we can all get a better understanding of EXACTLY what your point is since, as it stands, you seem to be saying thirty different and contradictory things.

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Classes
Actions will undergo major revisions, along with both the underlying mechanics and conditions.

By major revisions, not only do we mean the tweaking of effects and potency of existing actions - we will work from the ground up to redesign and reassign actions based on clearly identified class roles.

We will also make a number of changes as part of our reexamination of how actions are equipped and the character requirements for doing so. First, actions learned by each class will be set to the action bar by default when playing as that class. Also, we will be making some actions settable on any class, while other "class-defining" actions obtained at higher ranks will be usable only by that class.


Jobs

The job system - that series-defining trademark - will be implemented in FINAL FANTASY XIV (details such as specific jobs TBA). Quests to unlock each job will become available once you have reached a certain rank in the corresponding class.
Rather than being advanced versions of classes, we would like players to think of jobs as specialized playing styles optimized for partying. While playing as a particular job will render you unable to equip certain actions of other classes, you will be compensated with access to exclusive actions, which can be acquired through quests.

In practice, players will find the existing classes effective when playing solo or in certain party setups. Jobs, however, will shine in party situations where specific skill sets are demanded. Now, you didn’t hear this from me, but there are also rumors circulating that quests for obtaining job-exclusive equipment are also in the pipes.
We at the development team are currently hard at work on the job system, and expect to have details to share with you soon.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Where in there does he say Jobs are being implemented to create Class Uniqueness?
Protip: He doesn't. See in Red.

The Reason they are implementing jobs stems from two core reasons.

1. Players asked for the Traditional Job Names to be implemented but the devs felt changing the Armoury system and renaming the Classes as they were went against the core designs of the Armoury System which says your Weapon is your Class there is no difference between it. Links? Also depending on when the post was versus the dev post that triggered it it's irrelevant

2. Players asked for the ability to better identify themselves as being set for a specific role in combat. Conjurers were tired of being asked to parties to heal when all they want to do is nuke. The Job System readily fixes this issue. No one is arguing this point. A Conjurer will probably have a job with some skills that will help it be a better nuker. The name of this job will probably be Black Mage. But you will probably have to be a Conjurer to have access to the Black Mage Job and Black Mage Exclusive Skills.


None of those issues has to do with the Armoury Systems Class Uniqueness. It has to do with FF Nostalgia and Easy Role Identification. You're special

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Quesadillas. mmmm

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Class = Weapon
Job = Role

Class = Weapon
Job = Hat

same thing :P FF: 4 Heroes of Light used the Hats to depict the Jobs. worked great actually.

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Cairdeas, your thought here exploded in my head.

So, I realize that the developers probably already have something in mind regarding jobs and how they will interact with classes. One point I found interesting was that Matsui-san listed Classes & Jobs both under the Armoury title heading, implying that both are going to be considered as a part of revamped system. How would job fit under Armoury?

Let my blatant and wild speculation begin...

After reaching appropriate class rank (e.g. rank 20 conjurer), a new quest becomes available to unlock a job (e.g. Black Mage).
After completing the quest, your character gains the attribute Level 1 in the job (e.g. Black Mage), and receives a job-specific piece of gear (e.g. Black Mage hat).

In this example, equipping the Black Mage hat then is what sets your job to Black Mage. Additionally, the Level 1 Black Mage ability / trait is granted by that very hat. At rank 25 Conjurer, a quest opens up to unlock Level 2 Black Mage, and grants an item Black Mage Robe. Again, the level 2 Black Mage Robe grants the level 2 Black mage ability.

Now is where the fun could really begin. Now, clearly job gear would have to preclude mixing and matching with other job gear, in order to preserve job definition / role. However, additional forms of Job Gear could be made available! That is, multiple types of Black Mage hats: some could be craftable, some available from quests, some available from NMs, and perhaps some available as rewards from Grand Companies. Each of the hats could have different stats and possibly different attributes.

With six basic pieces of gear, and the addition of four zero slot cost job-specific pieces of jewelry, 10 levels of a job could be defined by gear (I suppose you could add two more via job specific underwear :p).

Now, how does this relate jobs to classes? Simple, simple, each piece of job-specific gear would have its own set of required classes. Those pieces of gear that grant the most powerful abilities may be restricted to only one class, while more moderate abilities could be opened up to several classes.

This system would give a fair amount of freedom to players to be able to mix and match weapons (i.e. classes) with jobs, and everything would fall naturally under the armoury system. It also would give the developers the tools to directly limit the more obviously broken combinations, or the combinations that don't fit in with the world lore as it is envisioned.

That said, it's all a pipe-dream, and I'll just have to see how it turns out.

I hope it isn't equipment that sets your job, because that would just be MORE inventory space to use up. If anything it should be . . . . . . Moogles :)

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Originally Posted by Focant

The amount of circular reasoning and semantics dancing in this topic is just over the top. I still think it's FAR too early to be making a suggestion remotely like this, but in the interest of laying things out I'm going to ask you to do something for me.

If you would, in as clear and concise a way as you can achieve, please answer these questions: What is it you want? Why do you think it's important we have it? How will it fit in with current game systems?

Add in any necessary definitions or whatever you need to answer them, but be sure to be clear. If you'd kindly do this for me I'll respond in turn and, hopefully, we can all get a better understanding of EXACTLY what your point is since, as it stands, you seem to be saying thirty different and contradictory things.

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I want jobs to be class specific.

If jobs are class specific an individual can have a sense of pride or accomplishment by being as good at their job as possible. (Oh hey look at Jimmy Jones! He's an awesome Dragoon!)

Alot of people find enjoyment in being recognized as being excellent in their favorite role.

The current system you equip a weapon and become a class, that class says you do this type of work. A gladiator is known for it's sword and shield. Marauders for it's large axes. Pugilists for their Hand weapons. Archer for their bows. Lancer for their polearms.

You equip a lance to become a lancer. At 85 Lancer has access to a quest to unlock the Dragoon Job. This job has the skill Jump.

If I equip a sword I am now a Gladiator and no longer have access to the dragoon job and jump. However I now have access to the berserker class where I can dual wield swords and have berserk.

Good?

Sorry Blood that was actually meant for Cairdeas, though it helps to have everyone lay out their premise. :P

I agree that jobs should be class specific and dependent on the conditions required to unlock the job in the first place. To arbitrarily throw out an existing mechanic, namely that weapons are intrinsically tied to the class you play, when moving into a system that's layered upon and, more than likely, reliant on the basic class system makes little to no sense. Apparently though I have the wrong impression of what Cair wants so I'm trying to get him to lay it out.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

Cairdeas, your thought here exploded in my head.

So, I realize that the developers probably already have something in mind regarding jobs and how they will interact with classes. One point I found interesting was that Matsui-san listed Classes & Jobs both under the Armoury title heading, implying that both are going to be considered as a part of revamped system. How would job fit under Armoury?

Let my blatant and wild speculation begin...

After reaching appropriate class rank (e.g. rank 20 conjurer), a new quest becomes available to unlock a job (e.g. Black Mage).
After completing the quest, your character gains the attribute Level 1 in the job (e.g. Black Mage), and receives a job-specific piece of gear (e.g. Black Mage hat).

In this example, equipping the Black Mage hat then is what sets your job to Black Mage. Additionally, the Level 1 Black Mage ability / trait is granted by that very hat. At rank 25 Conjurer, a quest opens up to unlock Level 2 Black Mage, and grants an item Black Mage Robe. Again, the level 2 Black Mage Robe grants the level 2 Black mage ability.

Now is where the fun could really begin. Now, clearly job gear would have to preclude mixing and matching with other job gear, in order to preserve job definition / role. However, additional forms of Job Gear could be made available! That is, multiple types of Black Mage hats: some could be craftable, some available from quests, some available from NMs, and perhaps some available as rewards from Grand Companies. Each of the hats could have different stats and possibly different attributes.

With six basic pieces of gear, and the addition of four zero slot cost job-specific pieces of jewelry, 10 levels of a job could be defined by gear (I suppose you could add two more via job specific underwear :p).

Now, how does this relate jobs to classes? Simple, simple, each piece of job-specific gear would have its own set of required classes. Those pieces of gear that grant the most powerful abilities may be restricted to only one class, while more moderate abilities could be opened up to several classes.

This system would give a fair amount of freedom to players to be able to mix and match weapons (i.e. classes) with jobs, and everything would fall naturally under the armoury system. It also would give the developers the tools to directly limit the more obviously broken combinations, or the combinations that don't fit in with the world lore as it is envisioned.

That said, it's all a pipe-dream, and I'll just have to see how it turns out.

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This would be interesting.

What is it you want? Freedom of Choice to pick what ever weapon I wish for use with a Job AFTER I have mastered it.

Why do you think it's important we have it? Because not everyones definition for a Specific Job includes a Defined Weapon of Choice. And some enjoy following past FF lore, or building their character based of off a specific image of how they want their character.

How will it fit in with current game systems? Because the Job System defines Role, Skills, and Traits, the only thing weapon is left to define is Stats. Stats can be compensated against with gear so by allowing players to experiment with various combinations they can find a set up they truly enjoy.

Example. If a Player enjoys playing as someone who attacks monsters from behind, and enjoys doing it with a Great Axe, they should be allowed too. This would essentially be a Marauder/Thief based on skills in the game already, This combination would do nicely on its own. But if Thief is relegated to being unlocked and only usable by Gladiator, or Pugilist (Depending on which Class unlocks it.) Then a Marauder/Thief option becomes unusable even if its a very valid and very powerful option.

The downside to this openness is that some combinations might not be very powerful. An Archer/White Mage might not be the best healer. But if you lock Classes and Jobs only on certain patterns it breaks with the tradition of Final Fantasy XIV as it already stands, as well as past Final Fantasy's. In that the best option is not always the only option available. Some options are not the best option but are still an option and its up to the player to decide that for themselves.

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

Your Job is tied to your class. You cannot be a Dragoon in any class other than Lancer. You may be able to use some skills from Dragoon in other classes like we can currently, but you will not be a Lancer/Dragoon, you will be whatever class/job you are with some Dragoon skills.

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It very well might work like that, but keep in mind that such a mechanic has to be universal. It may make intuitive sense that only the Lancer Class can have the Dragoon Job, but then the Development Team has to apply that rule universally across all the Jobs.

• Only [X Class] can have [Y Job].
• Only the Lancer Class can have the Dragoon Job (makes intuitive sense).
• Only the Archer Class can have the Ranger Job (also makes sense).
• Only the Pugilist Class can have the Monk Job (makes sense too).
• Only the Marauder Class can have the Warrior Job (makes sense).
• Only the Gladiator Class can have the Thief Job (the only DoW that can use a shield is also the only one that can be a Thief?? Not very intuitive).
• Only the Conjurer Class can have the White Mage Job (debatable, but OK).
• Only the Thaumaturge Class can have the Black Mage Job (so Black Mages would have to cross-class conjury elemental nukes at reduced effectiveness, since Conjurers won't be allowed to be Black Mages. That doesn't seem to make much sense).
• Only the ?? class can have the Red Mage Job (ran out of classes).
• Only the ?? class can have the Paladin Job (ran out of classes).
• Only the ?? class can have the Dark Knight Job (ran out of classes).

See the problem. Now one way out of this problem is instead of making classes to jobs one-to-one, make them two-to-one.

• Only Lancers and Marauders can have the Dragoon Job.
• Only Archers and ?? can have the Ranger Job.
• Only Pugilists and ?? can have the Monk Job.
• Only Marauders and Gladiators can have the Warrior Job.
• Only Gladiators and Pugilists can have the Thief Job.
• Only Conjurers and Thaumaturges can have the White Mage Job.
• Only Thaumaturges and Conjurers can have the Black Mage Job.
• Only Conjurers and Gladiators can have the Red Mage Job.
• Only Gladiators and Conjurers can have the Paladin Job.
• Only Marauders and Thaumaturges can have the Dark Knight Job.

New problem. All the Jobs now have classes, but because there are 10 Jobs to 7 Classes we have an imbalance. The only fix for this imbalance would be to add 4 additional Jobs beyond the ones listed above. Doesn't sound bad, right??

With 14 Jobs to 7 Classes things are balanced and the game is ready for launch! YAY!!

However the case, to maintain that balance, any time a new class or job is introduced in the game a corresponding number of classes and/or jobs MUST be introduced in order to maintain the balance. So if the Development Team wants to give us a new Class, they have to come up with two new Jobs for that Class. If they want to give us a new Job, they have come up with a new Class and an additional Job to maintain the balance. This is in addition to balancing all the skills and abilities of the new Jobs and/or Classes. Seems like a lot of extra work just to keep people from being axe-wielding White Mages.

---OR---

The Development Team can have no restrictions and let any Class play as any Job (mind you I'm not talking about unlocking Jobs, I'm talking about playing them). Then players (individually and as a community) will have a chance to experiment and decide what they want to play, both solo and in a party. Also this will allow the Development Team to concentrate on balancing skills instead of the number of specializations a particular Class may or may not have access to when introducing new Classes and/or Jobs.

So I understand where people are coming from when they say that only certain classes should only be certain jobs. But enforcing that in game, with code, brings its own set of complications.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

I want jobs to be class specific.

If jobs are class specific an individual can have a sense of pride or accomplishment by being as good at their job as possible. (Oh hey look at Jimmy Jones! He's an awesome Dragoon!)

Alot of people find enjoyment in being recognized as being excellent in their favorite role.

The current system you equip a weapon and become a class, that class says you do this type of work. A gladiator is known for it's sword and shield. Marauders for it's large axes. Pugilists for their Hand weapons. Archer for their bows. Lancer for their polearms.

You equip a lance to become a lancer. At 85 Lancer has access to a quest to unlock the Dragoon Job. This job has the skill Jump.

If I equip a sword I am now a Gladiator and no longer have access to the dragoon job and jump. However I now have access to the berserker class where I can dual wield swords and have berserk.

Good?

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We wont see Dragoon for ages if it is 85 :). But Jobs shouldn't be locked to the class that unlocks them...

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

Quesadillas. mmmm

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The Section you highlights is under Classes not Jobs. They are segregated.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

What is it you want? Freedom of Choice to pick what ever weapon I wish for use with a Job AFTER I have mastered it.

Why do you think it's important we have it? Because not everyones definition for a Specific Job includes a Defined Weapon of Choice. And some enjoy following past FF lore, or building their character based of off a specific image of how they want their character.

How will it fit in with current game systems? Because the Job System defines Role, Skills, and Traits, the only thing weapon is left to define is Stats. Stats can be compensated against with gear so by allowing players to experiment with various combinations they can find a set up they truly enjoy.

Example. If a Player enjoys playing as someone who attacks monsters from behind, and enjoys doing it with a Great Axe, they should be allowed too. This would essentially be a Marauder/Thief based on skills in the game already, This combination would do nicely on its own. But if Thief is relegated to being unlocked and only usable by Gladiator, or Pugilist (Depending on which Class unlocks it.) Then a Marauder/Thief option becomes unusable even if its a very valid and very powerful option.

The downside to this openness is that some combinations might not be very powerful. An Archer/White Mage might not be the best healer. But if you lock Classes and Jobs only on certain patterns it breaks with the tradition of Final Fantasy XIV as it already stands, as well as past Final Fantasy's. In that the best option is not always the only option available. Some options are not the best option but are still an option and its up to the player to decide that for themselves.

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In all of my posts all I was trying to say is that this probably won't be how it works.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

The Section you highlights is under Classes not Jobs. They are segregated.

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You are absolutely correct.

You must have forgotten what your post said for you to feel that you need to point that out. Go reread your own post. I'll wait.

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

You are absolutely correct.

You must have forgotten what your post said for you to feel that you need to point that out. Go reread your own post. I'll wait.

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I asked where it said Jobs were being implemented to fix Class Uniqueness, it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

It very well might work like that, but keep in mind that such a mechanic has to be universal. It may make intuitive sense that only the Lancer Class can have the Dragoon Job, but then the Development Team has to apply that rule universally across all the Jobs.

• Only [X Class] can have [Y Job].
• Only the Lancer Class can have the Dragoon Job (makes intuitive sense).
• Only the Archer Class can have the Ranger Job (also makes sense).
• Only the Pugilist Class can have the Monk Job (makes sense too).
• Only the Marauder Class can have the Warrior Job (makes sense).
• Only the Gladiator Class can have the Thief Job (the only DoW that can use a shield is also the only one that can be a Thief?? Not very intuitive).
• Only the Conjurer Class can have the White Mage Job (debatable, but OK).
• Only the Thaumaturge Class can have the Black Mage Job (so Black Mages would have to cross-class conjury elemental nukes at reduced effectiveness, since Conjurers won't be allowed to be Black Mages. That doesn't seem to make much sense).
• Only the ?? class can have the Red Mage Job (ran out of classes).
• Only the ?? class can have the Paladin Job (ran out of classes).
• Only the ?? class can have the Dark Knight Job (ran out of classes).

See the problem. Now one way out of this problem is instead of making classes to jobs one-to-one, make them two-to-one.

• Only Lancers and Marauders can have the Dragoon Job.
• Only Archers and ?? can have the Ranger Job.
• Only Pugilists and ?? can have the Monk Job.
• Only Marauders and Gladiators can have the Warrior Job.
• Only Gladiators and Pugilists can have the Thief Job.
• Only Conjurers and Thaumaturges can have the White Mage Job.
• Only Thaumaturges and Conjurers can have the Black Mage Job.
• Only Conjurers and Gladiators can have the Red Mage Job.
• Only Gladiators and Conjurers can have the Paladin Job.
• Only Marauders and Thaumaturges can have the Dark Knight Job.

New problem. All the Jobs now have classes, but because there are 10 Jobs to 7 Classes we have an imbalance. The only fix for this imbalance would be to add 4 additional Jobs beyond the ones listed above. Doesn't sound bad, right??

With 14 Jobs to 7 Classes things are balanced and the game is ready for launch! YAY!!

However the case, to maintain that balance, any time a new class or job is introduced in the game a corresponding number of classes and/or jobs MUST be introduced in order to maintain the balance. So if the Development Team wants to give us a new Class, they have to come up with two new Jobs for that Class. If they want to give us a new Job, they have come up with a new Class and an additional Job to maintain the balance. This is in addition to balancing all the skills and abilities of the new Jobs and/or Classes. Seems like a lot of extra work just to keep people from being axe-wielding White Mages.

---OR---

The Development Team can have no restrictions and let any Class play as any Job (mind you I'm not talking about unlocking Jobs, I'm talking about playing them). Then players (individually and as a community) will have a chance to experiment and decide what they want to play, both solo and in a party. Also this will allow the Development Team to concentrate on balancing skills instead of the number of specializations a particular Class may or may not have access to when introducing new Classes and/or Jobs.

So I understand where people are coming from when they say that only certain classes should only be certain jobs. But enforcing that in game, with code, brings its own set of complications.

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Wow....

In my head I was thinking 2 jobs per class (I'll give you a link) but this is really an interesting thought.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I asked where it said Jobs were being implemented to fix Class Uniqueness, it doesn't.

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"based on clearly identified class roles."

Doesn't sound like Class Uniqueness to you? I thought you'd understand since you're so fond of word games.

Cairdeas, I guess I am not understanding your post. In your post, you are assuming that Lancer is going to unlock Dragoon, and Archer will unlock Ranger. I do not see how they would ever have a lancer, and a dragoon, or a archer, and a ranger in the game at the same time. The only way that would make sense is if Dragoon was designed to replace Lancer @ Rank 50, and you are not able to Rank Lancer any higher. Basically, a promotion system. I did not read anywhere in the post that he mentioned a promotion system, so I would pretty much rule that out. Also, you mentioned at the bottom of your post that if you want to play a Thief/Marauder, you should be able to. I did not read anything that mentioned a main job/sub job system. Again, I may have just missunderstood your post.

NO RESTRICTIONS

LET ANY JOB BE USED ON ANY CLASS

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Draco

Cairdeas, I guess I am not understanding your post. In your post, you are assuming that Lancer is going to unlock Dragoon, and Archer will unlock Ranger. I do not see how they would ever have a lancer, and a dragoon, or a archer, and a ranger in the game at the same time. The only way that would make sense is if Dragoon was designed to replace Lancer @ Rank 50, and you are not able to Rank Lancer any higher. Basically, a promotion system. I did not read anywhere in the post that he mentioned a promotion system, so I would pretty much rule that out. Also, you mentioned at the bottom of your post that if you want to play a Thief/Marauder, you should be able to. I did not read anything that mentioned a main job/sub job system. Again, I may have just missunderstood your post.

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I don't know about him, but I'm using Lancer and Dragoon as examples because I like those classes/jobs I had one in 11.

But the names of the Jobs aren't meant to be taken literally. They might not have any name we know of.

Using rift and their souls setup as an example....

http://www.riftgame.com/en/classes/index.php

Pretend Warrior Cleric Rogue and Mage are the classes we have now; Gladiator, Lancer etc.

Now imagine the Souls (Champion, Purifier, Nightblade and Elementalist) are the equivalent of Jobs.

Cairdeas wants to be able to use skills from Elementalist as a Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Draco

Cairdeas, I guess I am not understanding your post. In your post, you are assuming that Lancer is going to unlock Dragoon, and Archer will unlock Ranger. I do not see how they would ever have a lancer, and a dragoon, or a archer, and a ranger in the game at the same time. The only way that would make sense is if Dragoon was designed to replace Lancer @ Rank 50, and you are not able to Rank Lancer any higher. Basically, a promotion system. I did not read anywhere in the post that he mentioned a promotion system, so I would pretty much rule that out. Also, you mentioned at the bottom of your post that if you want to play a Thief/Marauder, you should be able to. I did not read anything that mentioned a main job/sub job system. Again, I may have just missunderstood your post.

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You misunderstood the post.

Thief/Maruader isnt denoting a Main/Sub combo, in this case it is denoting a Job/Class combo.

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

I don't know about him, but I'm using Lancer and Dragoon as examples because I like those classes/jobs I had one in 11.

But the names of the Jobs aren't meant to be taken literally. They might not have any name we know of.

Using rift and their souls setup as an example....

http://www.riftgame.com/en/classes/index.php

Pretend Warrior Cleric Rogue and Mage are the classes we have now; Gladiator, Lancer etc.

Now imagine the Souls (Champion, Purifier, Nightblade and Elementalist) are the equivalent of Jobs.

Cairdeas wants to be able to use skills from Elementalist as a Warrior.

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It has already been said in the blueprint that Having a Job set will prevent you from using certain class skills, so even if you were to equip a wand as a warrior, it doesn't mean you will be able to use the elemental magic or healing spells, making it silly to equip a wand should they allow it anyways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reika

It has already been said in the blueprint that Having a Job set will prevent you from using certain class skills, so even if you were to equip a wand as a warrior, it doesn't mean you will be able to use the elemental magic or healing spells, making it silly to equip a wand should they allow it anyways.

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I'm glad you understand.

/liked

Buuuut that doesn't mean it would be silly for a Warrior to be able to equip a Sword, Axe, Spear, H-H weapon, or Bow. Pretty much any DoW weapon. Warriors have been known to be weapon specialists, and can use a variety of weapons in combat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reika

Buuuut that doesn't mean it would be silly for a Warrior to be able to equip a Sword, Axe, Spear, H-H weapon, or Bow. Pretty much any DoW weapon. Warriors have been known to be weapon specialists, and can use a variety of weapons in combat.

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No it's not silly, it makes perfect sense and is a true fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Draco

Cairdeas, I guess I am not understanding your post. In your post, you are assuming that Lancer is going to unlock Dragoon, and Archer will unlock Ranger. I do not see how they would ever have a lancer, and a dragoon, or a archer, and a ranger in the game at the same time. The only way that would make sense is if Dragoon was designed to replace Lancer @ Rank 50, and you are not able to Rank Lancer any higher. Basically, a promotion system. I did not read anywhere in the post that he mentioned a promotion system, so I would pretty much rule that out. Also, you mentioned at the bottom of your post that if you want to play a Thief/Marauder, you should be able to. I did not read anything that mentioned a main job/sub job system. Again, I may have just missunderstood your post.

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Because Archer is a "Bow User" and Ranger is a "Ranged Damage Dealing Specialist." One is a Weapon, The other is a Specialization.

Lancer uses a Lance. Dragoon uses Jump and other abilities to help control Hate.
One is a weapon, one is a specialization.

Thats already established with how they are going to implement them.

That isn't what we are arguing.

What we are arguing is there is no reason to lock a Weapon from a Job just because that weapon might not be the best fit for the job. Because the Job doesn't define the weapon used, it defines the role performed in combat which again doesn't define the weapon used.

I dislike the "one class per weapon type" system that we currently have. Doesn't it go against the freedom of versatility and uniqueness that FFXIV was trying to promote from the beginning? I really want to get on with the "drastic changes." ^^

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

No it's not silly, it makes perfect sense and is a true fact.

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Why limit some but let other slide? It should be all or none and I'd prefer the all. No, not every combination would get used, but that doesn't mean you should prevent the choice.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Why limit some but let other slide? It should be all or none and I'd prefer the all. No, not every combination would get used, but that doesn't mean you should prevent the choice.

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What are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

What are you talking about?

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I don't think it knows anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Because Archer is a "Bow User" and Ranger is a "Ranged Damage Dealing Specialist." (Based on a personal assumption). Bow is a Weapon, The Ranger is a Specialization (Job). Archer is the Class

Lancer uses a Lance. Dragoon uses a lance also but has Jump and other abilities to help control Hate.
Lance is a weapon, Dragoon is a specialization (Job). Lancer is the Class

Thats already established with how they are going to implement them. (Not sure what you mean here)

That isn't what we are arguing.

What we are arguing is there is no reason to lock a Weapon from a Job just because that weapon might not be the best fit for the job. Because the Job doesn't define the weapon used, it defines the role performed in combat which again doesn't define the weapon used.

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You are leaving out important parts of your sentences to make them work for you. I'll help you out by using FFXI as an example.

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

You are leaving out important parts of your sentences to make them work for you. I'll help you out by using FFXI as an example.

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And you keep acting as if things like Lancer and Lance are two different things. They are the same parts of one coin. You can't have a lancer without a lance. Thats established. If I say Lance, I mean and am already including Lancer. If I say bow, I mean and am already including Archer.


But Dragoon is NOT specifically a lancer. Case in point a huge majority of Final Fantasy's with Dragoons have swords specifically set aside that ONLY dragoons can use (Sometimes they are singularly shared with RDM but most of the time they are DRG Only) One is called the Epee.

http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Epee

Dragoon shouldn't be restricted to Lances Only.

Archers Use Bows. Thats their weapon. Archer means Arch User (Arch is latin for Bow)

A Ranger uses a Bow, but they are not Archers. A Ranger can also use guns, cross bows, throwing weapons, hand axes, swords, and daggers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

What is it you want? Freedom of Choice to pick what ever weapon I wish for use with a Job AFTER I have mastered it.

Why do you think it's important we have it? Because not everyones definition for a Specific Job includes a Defined Weapon of Choice. And some enjoy following past FF lore, or building their character based of off a specific image of how they want their character.

How will it fit in with current game systems? Because the Job System defines Role, Skills, and Traits, the only thing weapon is left to define is Stats. Stats can be compensated against with gear so by allowing players to experiment with various combinations they can find a set up they truly enjoy.

Example. If a Player enjoys playing as someone who attacks monsters from behind, and enjoys doing it with a Great Axe, they should be allowed too. This would essentially be a Marauder/Thief based on skills in the game already, This combination would do nicely on its own. But if Thief is relegated to being unlocked and only usable by Gladiator, or Pugilist (Depending on which Class unlocks it.) Then a Marauder/Thief option becomes unusable even if its a very valid and very powerful option.

The downside to this openness is that some combinations might not be very powerful. An Archer/White Mage might not be the best healer. But if you lock Classes and Jobs only on certain patterns it breaks with the tradition of Final Fantasy XIV as it already stands, as well as past Final Fantasy's. In that the best option is not always the only option available. Some options are not the best option but are still an option and its up to the player to decide that for themselves.

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Alright, thanks for replying.

The desire for greater character freedom is one I'm sure anyone can get behind and I don't think anyone wants to restrict it if they can help it. Of course, there are limitations to just how much and in what capacity this can be given while still maintaining the structure of the game. I was hoping you'd define for me what you consider a "class" and perhaps give a reasoning for why you think the class to weapon bond should be broken for the job system but oh well. Anyways, this is based on my own interpretation of what little info was given regarding the new job system, so I may make some false assumptions.

As it is now "class" is defined by your weapon. The skills you learn are also dependent on your class and your proficiency within it. I can't say that, necessarily, your weapon determines your skills, as there is cross class usage, but it certainly has an effect on the usefulness of those abilities. Now, the job system is, as I understand it, an extension of the class system. Jobs have specific class requirements and each are further specializations into specific party roles, more than likely in line with the basic role of the class it was born from. So you may have lancer expand into a DD job or a support job. Not simply general roles but extensions of the way these roles were achieved by Lnc itself, namely debuffs a la Dnc placed on the enemy or piercing attacks. In taking on this specialization, the jobs give up a level of freedom in cross class skill usage in favor of special skills they themselves can only use. You can make a conscious decision to take on a certain role and gain a boost in that area, giving up your diversity for it.

Now, the problem is you seem to be asking for diversity in a system that is built around the idea of specialization. To swap to another weapon would not suddenly give you access to new skills, as many are locked out during the move into "job" status. There is no freedom to be gained in a restricted system and the only freedom is in your ability to choose a specialization to adapt to whatever situation you find yourself in. Also, while I don't have a drawn out reasoning pointing to this, it doesn't make much sense to me to suddenly remove the role of weapons in defining purpose out of some idea that the skillsets make up for it. They don't replace classes they augment them and it's only natural that the class they are meant to enhance remains intact. Classes are the foundation and jobs are the structure.

I think a critical mistake many are making in this discussion is comparing XIV to older games on a one to one basis. Of course parallels can be drawn and many of the names applied to jobs will more than likely come from previous FFs. However, that does not mean they are equal and does not mean we can use games that aren't XIV to define what XIV is.

Finally, it may sound a bit dismissive, but it's entirely true. If you want to play a healer, you play a healer. Don't try and make the DD into a healer. If you do you remove any semblance of a job system and it simply becomes a skill system, something that the class system already borders along.

Edit: Sorry just wanted to clarify one point. Some skills ARE reliant on your weapon such as Speed Surge which specifically states "Requires: Polearm." It's not entirely relevant to my post but I just wanted to put that out there.

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剣術士 → Sword User｜Sword User→Gladius (Latin: Sword)+ -ātor (Latin: Agent) → Gladiator

格闘士 → Hand-to-Hand User｜Fist User → Pugil (Latin: Fist) + -ist (Latin: Practitioner) → Pugilist

弓術士 → Bow User｜Bow User → Arcus (Latin: Bow) + -er (Defines a User from his Tool) → Archer

槍術士 → Lance User｜Lance User → Lancea (Latin: Lance) + er (Defines a User from his Tool) → Lancer

Marauder branches away from latin, instead seeming to draw on French (Maurader is a word of french origin) and the Franks with their menacing Francisca axes. So the “Axe User” gets rather loosely translated as “Marauder”.

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Because I don't think everyone got this memo.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

And you keep acting as if things like Lancer and Lance are two different things. They are the same parts of one coin. You can't have a lancer without a lance. Thats established. But Dragoon is NOT specifically a lancer. Case in point a huge majority of Final Fantasy's with Dragoons have swords specifically set aside that ONLY dragoons can use (Sometimes they are singularly shared with RDM but most of the time they are DRG Only) One is called the Epee.

http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Epee

Dragoon shouldn't be restricted to Lances Only.

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Lol again with the games of yesteryear. That is a sword. What happens in FFXIV when you equip a sword?

You're arguing but you're arguing a different point that is not the subject of this thread.... which is your own thread.

I believe Jobs will be class specific.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Because I don't think everyone got this memo.

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Another word game with no source? Source it up Thickskull

Speaking of word games, this has no relevance to your thread either.

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

Another word game with no source? Source it up Thickskull

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The Japanese names are present on the Japanese Forum List. Here you go.

クラス
格闘士／剣術士／斧術士／弓術士／槍術士／幻術士／呪術士／採掘師／園芸師／漁師／木工師／鍛冶師／甲冑師／彫金師／革細工師／裁縫師／錬金術師／調理師

The original Translations I listed come from Elmer from ZAM.

The Names for Each class in English we already know. Each of those names is based off of latin, with the exception of Marauder which is based off french.

I don't need to source these things they are established historical words.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

Lol again with the games of yesteryear. That is a sword. What happens in FFXIV when you equip a sword?

You're arguing but you're arguing a different point that is not the subject of this thread.... which is your own thread.

I believe Jobs will be class specific.

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In FFXIV you equip a sword you become a "Sword User" (Japanese Name) which is a Gladiator in english. Gladiator is simply the name of the weapon user. Not its role or its Job.

A Dragoon is a Job that is defined by one key element. Jumping for Hate Control. It is not limited to Spears, Lances or Swords.

A Dragoon can Use Swords.

A Dragoon/Gladiator should be a valid option for play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

The Japanese names are present on the Japanese Forum List. Here you go.

クラス
格闘士／剣術士／斧術士／弓術士／槍術士／幻術士／呪術士／採掘師／園芸師／漁師／木工師／鍛冶師／甲冑師／彫金師／革細工師／裁縫師／錬金術師／調理師

The original Translations I listed come from Elmer from ZAM.

The Names for Each class in English we already know. Each of those names is based off of latin, with the exception of Marauder which is based off french.

I don't need to source these things they are established historical words.

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Now, what is the point you're trying to make?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

I believe Jobs will be class specific.

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I have no doubt that you do. Thats not what I'm asking. I'm asking that SE consider that they keep the ability to use any weapon on any job an option. Lots of other players have agreed with me. Thats the only thing I've tried to instill. Yet you keep coming along saying things like "A Dragoon is a Lancer" when historically its not.

My point with the Class list translations is to try and show that all the classes are are weapons. They are not established roles, they are nothing but the weapon themselves. They are a foundation to build a character off of. A tool to teach you skills. One of those skills they will now teach you is the ability to define your Role with a Job that gives you a combat specialization.

Once I've learned and mastered that Specialization I should be allowed to use it on any weapon. Which is what the Armoury system was designed for.