Dark Knight

Honestly now, if we had 8 variations of tanks and 2 for dps it wouldn't matter dps would still have more players. Tanking has a lot of responsibility that most players just dont want to deal with. Tanking is also pretty boring for most people, and if you try to make it fun or more DPS like, people seem to feel like it should be able to be considered dps(war) even if its intended as a tank. Adding a tank will just have people who already tank decide which is better or more fun. But it wont cause a big increase if any in the tank population. Adding a DPS could bring more players in or people would just switch mains. But DPS players are highly unlikely to just switch roles. Lack of tanks will always be a problem no matter how many tank jobs there are.

Even though I love DRK, NIN,THF,SAM, if they were tank classes unless they were just absolutely amazingly super fun its very unlikely i'll use them in group content. I even have my paladin at 50. But I have no real plans to main a tank in content, as frankly holding hate and taking damage, while giving my living or dying full reliance to others isn't fun for me.

There are plenty of reasons why having a few tanking classes, lots of DPS, and a few healers is pretty normal across RPGs and MMORPG's. You'd be hard pressed to find tons and tons of people who'd rather get hit by monsters and players rather than being the one doing the hitting.

Even harder pressed to find people who don't mind being yelled at for something they didn't do after a group dies or a duty fails. Blame the tank, Blame the healer. That's why these classes lack players. Its always their fault even when it isn't. They even have to learn more about content and the mechanics they'll deal with over DPS.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

however, if you actually read the OP, this class has almost entirely been a DPS class when playable as the main PC.

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You act like every class except support classes *aren't* DPS classes.

It's like you're trying to troll but being sincere about it.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

Theyy even have to learn more about content and the mechanics they'll deal with over DPS.

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[insert]...and get additional grief when telling dps how to cope with mechanics or what is expected of them.

It's going to be a DPS, GLD30/LNC15, a dps, das it mane.

I personally think Dark Knight will become the first or one of the first advanced jobs that branches off PLD.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

You act like every class except support classes *aren't* DPS classes.

It's like you're trying to troll but being sincere about it.

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Okay, evidence please. I would like to see your support of your statement. I gave my conclusion by using a 3rd party (Wiki), to actively see the roles the class has had in combat by the points made leaning to this subject. If I missed some points supporting the class as a tank fine. If You want to point out a class that was equally or more-so a DPS and now a tank Okay.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Okay, evidence please.

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http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Job_System


There you go.

As I see it if DRK ere to be a tank it would most likely be some kind of DoT based drain tanker. We already have a heavy damage mit tank job (PLD) and a slower mostly burst heal based tank job (WAR). We still do not have a middle of the road between these two extremes. I also believe that such a build would be set up for a far more aggressive play style not just with Darkness but with abilities that damage/debuff any enemy that hits the DRK (The whole "My pain will be your suffering" thing). We have a number of good MMO examples of this set up like the Shadowknight from EQII.

I see it a being very much a "death of a thousands cuts" type tank where for the most part any individual attack (with the exception of Darkness for those strategic burst moments) is relatively minor but with the DRK piling so many on consecutively that it effectively bullies the enemy to death with a barrage of pain. Thing is this would also make a good DPS set up if SE decided to go that route.

I played a DR in FF 11 as well and it was fun. People did ask /WAR before to go as a tank and I didn't have warrior. Also it's not right to blame SE for making Ninja a tank. It's the players that did this. It's the same thing as well with the Red mage. It's not a main healer. It's a battle mage or rather a spell sword

I just had a thought; is there a possibiity that they might go dual one handed weapon? I don't think there is a president for it.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

I just had a thought; is there a possibiity that they might go dual one handed weapon? I don't think there is a president for it.

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Doubt it. Dual wielding will likely be the domain of thieves/ninjas when they finally get added.

As far as Dark Knights go, I'm inclined to believe that it'll be a job associated with either the Marauder or Lancer depending on whether the devs would prefer it to be a dps or tank class.

The dark knight class, in my opinion, seems more likely to be a tank job than dps. This is because every picture that I have ever seen of this class they are typically very heavily armored. That to me seems more tank than dps.

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Originally Posted by Deathscythe343

The dark knight class, in my opinion, seems more likely to be a tank job than dps. This is because every picture that I have ever seen of this class they are typically very heavily armored. That to me seems more tank than dps.

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Wooow.... and read the OP.

That is all I have to say.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Wooow.... and read the OP.

That is all I have to say.

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I believe this is a class that could fill both rolls but to be honest this will most likely be brought into the game as a tank, as a way to remedy the tank shortage issue. Im happy for either, i love Dark knight. Always been my favorite.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Wooow.... and read the OP.

That is all I have to say.

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I did read your first post. You presented a very well thought out argument for how the dark knight job could be brought into the game as a dps. That being said, it still does not change my opinion on the matter. I think that is much more likely that it will be a tank job. They have mentioned the idea of hybrid roles, so it is possible that it may have the option for both.

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Originally Posted by Deathscythe343

I did read your first post. You presented a very well thought out argument for how the dark knight job could be brought into the game as a dps. That being said, it still does not change my opinion on the matter. I think that is much more likely that it will be a tank job. They have mentioned the idea of hybrid roles, so it is possible that it may have the option for both.

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In reality, the only actual instance we have to go off of is FFXI. That's the only game where roles like Tank, Healer, DPS and Support were clearly defined (and even then, it wasn't clear because of how horrible implementation was).

It's more likely it'll be a DPS but there's nothing to say that it can't be a tank.

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Originally Posted by Deathscythe343

I did read your first post. You presented a very well thought out argument for how the dark knight job could be brought into the game as a dps. That being said, it still does not change my opinion on the matter. I think that is much more likely that it will be a tank job. They have mentioned the idea of hybrid roles, so it is possible that it may have the option for both.

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It was statistically a glass canon ever most incarnations, except X-2. Despite its armor it sacrificed Hp to do more damage. In some games where HP and armor were different, the job had very little hp and heavy armor. Yeah they could make it a tank, but it would be like making the summoner into a DoT dps.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

In reality, the only actual instance we have to go off of is FFXI. That's the only game where roles like Tank, Healer, DPS and Support were clearly defined (and even then, it wasn't clear because of how horrible implementation was).

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I have and will dispute that. as mentions above. It has been both a tank and DPS type class. Just for former more often by almost ever case.

Bumping here! I want my DRK back!

I think Ninja will make its appearance before Dark Knight.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

I think Ninja will make its appearance before Dark Knight.

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Probably assassin actually, but yes, DRK not first.

The ninja may not be the only class/job we get when Yugiri starts training people. She mentions moving all of the survivors of her city. There are bound to be a few more people with some tricks up their sleeves.

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Originally Posted by Deathscythe343

The ninja may not be the only class/job we get when Yugiri starts training people. She mentions moving all of the survivors of her city. There are bound to be a few more people with some tricks up their sleeves.

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Yes, I thought of that as well, but that also made me think that this would point to DRK as a tank job because I don't think they will release 2 DPS jobs. It would be a bad idea at least; we do need more tanks and I was hoping a 1 each role release.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Probably assassin actually, but yes, DRK not first.

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Assassin is pretty uncommon in the FF realms, being that it's only in 3 games, playable in 2 of those games. I'd be surprised if they brought in Assassin instead of Ninja.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Assassin is pretty uncommon in the FF realms, being that it's only in 3 games, playable in 2 of those games. I'd be surprised if they brought in Assassin instead of Ninja.

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Well the NPC we saw in the 2.2 storyline is wearing the assassin Iconic outfit. Source. However with that rat tail of her's she is obviously a rat race vs. the common rabbit race.

If they do add in an actual ninja, I think it might actually be a tank, if they already have an assassin job in the game. Historic ninja don't like actually killing and utilised a number of defensive tactics in their acts of escaping. Cool video on it.

Didn't Yoshida say that Ninja will never be tank in this game?

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Historic ninja don't like actually killing and utilised a number of defensive tactics in their acts of escaping.

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They also didn't like being seen, or their presence being known at all. Which is the opposite of what tanks want.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Well the NPC we saw in the 2.2 storyline is wearing the assassin Iconic outfit.

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It's not the Assassin "iconic" outfit (not entirely sure it can be "iconic" given that you're talking about an outfit only used in 2 games where every other implementation looks nothing the same). The assassin outfit you're referring to has a shortcloak, jumper/onesie, separated sleeves/armguards, and a face/head wrap for the mask. Yugiri has a hood, a tunic, bracers, gloves, chainmail pants and boots, and either a pullup from her tunic/undershirt to cover her face or a tighly pulled mask. About the only thing that they have in common is the mask.

Using the outfit as "evidence" that she's an assassin rather than a ninja is ludicrous since it's not even the assassin outfit.

What she's wearing is a closer approximation of the NIN outfit which is generally comprised of a hood, mask, tunic, bracers/armguards, loose pants, and boots. The only thing different about Yugiri's outfit from the traditional NIN outfit is that she has tight pants. She's a NIN, not an assassin.

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If they do add in an actual ninja, I think it might actually be a tank, if they already have an assassin job in the game.

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Yoshi has already said that NIN will never be a tank because the idea is ludicrous on the face of it. NIN were *stealthy* which is completely and totally contradictory to the idea of a tank. Nowhere in the entire FF series can you find an example where NIN was actually intended to be a tank, and the only example where you *can* find wherein NIN was a tank (FFXI), it wasn't because of the developers thinking it was a keen idea; it was because the devs made a stupid mistake by giving NIN too powerful of a personal survival tool, and the player base completely changed their metagame around said ability. In FFXI, the only reason the devs made NIN a straight up tank was because they had to cede to the player metagame; if the players hadn't turned them into tanks and done so to a monumental degree such that they were often the *preferred* tank, the devs would never have allowed NIN to be tanks.

NIN is going to be DPS. There's no question about it.

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Historic ninja don't like actually killing and utilised a number of defensive tactics in their acts of escaping. Cool video on it.

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Are you seriously using a video about video game ninjas as a link to historic ninjas? The "defensive tactics" of the historic ninja were almost entirely evasive techniques; not "dodge the sword" but "run away or hide so that they can't catch me". I really don't see a tank doing that.

I see dark night being a job stemming from the marauder class. The class is already 2 handed so they could have a scythe or great sword. Now obviously we only have 5 slots for a job so keep that in mind and they will still have tank armor which has its benefit as u will see. I'm seeing pug/arc as sub which seems op to me so maybe pug/arc or thm

Souleater next weapon skill 20% hp converted to dmg cannot be used with darkness.

Darkness single atk. Dmg given is absorbed

Crushing blow high dmg+bind

Vehemence 50%dmg up 50 def down

Unholy sacrifice 30% hp sac for high aoe dmg.

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Originally Posted by Roffel

I see dark night being a job stemming from the marauder class. The class is already 2 handed so they could have a scythe or great sword. Now obviously we only have 5 slots for a job so keep that in mind and they will still have tank armor which has its benefit as u will see. I'm seeing pug/arc as sub which seems op to me so maybe pug/arc or thm

Souleater next weapon skill 20% hp converted to dmg cannot be used with darkness.

Darkness single atk. Dmg given is absorbed

Crushing blow high dmg+bind

Vehemence 50%dmg up 50 def down

Unholy sacrifice 30% hp sac for high aoe dmg.

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It would a crying shame if SE doesn't give DRK its own base class.

Why give its own base class when Mrd has all the skills it already has that's menacing? Berserk? Vengeance? Storms blow which increase slashing dmg? It's all right there overpower???

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Originally Posted by Exstal

It would a crying shame if SE doesn't give DRK its own base class.

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I agree with Roffel. Marauder kind of makes sense for this.

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Originally Posted by Roffel

Why give its own base class when Mrd has all the skills it already has that's menacing? Berserk? Vengeance? Storms blow which increase slashing dmg? It's all right there overpower???

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Originally Posted by Deathscythe343

I agree with Roffel. Marauder kind of makes sense for this.

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2 handed axe for Dark Knight seems kind of lame? They (SE) have so much time to create a new cool base class with a completely different skill set from Marauder. Sure, you *can* make Dark Knight from Marauder but why do it when you can make a whole new playstyle.

I believe they should only make 1 class into 2 jobs if that was the intention from the ground up like SCH/SMN. Going back to change or modify is probably more work than it's worth.

Obviously you don't kno the lore of drk. There is only 2 times they had 1 handed weapons and that was tactics and 4. Everywhere else they had gs and scythes. Ur looking for diff when all they were are brutal and evil sacrificing there own life for sheer power. Trying make its own class AND job would be a hell of alot more work then adding 5 job abilities and armor. The skills are there why not just use them. The animation is amazing for Mrd. Mrd has the capibilities of being a great dps give. This would give them that.

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Originally Posted by Roffel

Everywhere else they had gs and scythes.

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On only 1 occasion did DRK have a scythe and that was FFXI. There's better precedent for DRK to use a sword and shield than there is for them using a scythe. Also, you're forgetting FF2, wherein Leon the original dark knight, was a spear/shield specialist. Cecil was also a sword and shield user, rather than a greatsword user and he's basically the foundation of the entire DRK archetype in FF. It's only in the most recent iterations that DRK has become synonymous with greatswords.

I'm not disagreeing with you that they should use greatswords, though. It's just that, if you look at their historical appearances, there's more precedent for them to use 1h and shield than there is to use a 2h sword.

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Trying make its own class AND job would be a hell of alot more work then adding 5 job abilities and armor.

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And yet adding 5 abilities wouldn't really make a DRK based off of GLA that's actually compelling to play. It's one of the reasons why you're not like to see any DPS class based off of GLA (or CNJ): they're too vested in their base role that you're not going to make a compelling DPS playstyle with just 5 abilities, and, if it's not compelling to play, what's the point? A lot of classes are simply too vested in a single role to ever get another job, since it's highly unlikely they'll ever double up on jobs with a given role for a single class. THM, ARC, GLA, and CNJ are all basically locked to a single job. LNC and PGL have some potential to be turned into tanks, and MRD has some potential to be turned into a DPS (it's substantially more problematic than turning LNC/PGL into tanks), but, honestly, it's much more likely that they'll only have double jobs for classes built with it in mind because, elsewise, you're liable to get mechanics that don't work for both or too many abilities that are only useful to one job.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

It's not the Assassin "iconic" outfit (not entirely sure it can be "iconic" given that you're talking about an outfit only used in 2 games where every other implementation looks nothing the same).

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Hold it right there....

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...a-assassin.jpghttp://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...raAssassin.jpghttp://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...in_Brigade.png
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...in_Brigade.png
Source

Zero Argument here. This is the assassin iconic outfit there is zero disputing that fact.
http://cdn.pcgamesn.com/sites/defaul...1394041545.png

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Are you seriously using a video about video game ninjas as a link to historic ninjas? The "defensive tactics" of the historic ninja were almost entirely evasive techniques; not "dodge the sword" but "run away or hide so that they can't catch me". I really don't see a tank doing that.

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If you actually WATCH the video the creator was comparing fake Video Game Ninjas to REAL ones. Better luck next time on this one.

*Trot* *Trot* *Trot*
Hear that? Sounds like goats on YOUR bridge. Better go get'em!

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Yoshi has already said that NIN will never be a tank because the idea is ludicrous on the face of it. NIN were *stealthy* which is completely and totally contradictory to the idea of a tank. Nowhere in the entire FF series can you find an example where NIN was actually intended to be a tank, and the only example where you *can* find wherein NIN was a tank (FFXI), it wasn't because of the developers thinking it was a keen idea; it was because the devs made a stupid mistake by giving NIN too powerful of a personal survival tool, and the player base completely changed their metagame around said ability. In FFXI, the only reason the devs made NIN a straight up tank was because they had to cede to the player metagame; if the players hadn't turned them into tanks and done so to a monumental degree such that they were often the *preferred* tank, the devs would never have allowed NIN to be tanks.

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This is a fair statement, jobs/class appearance has changed depending on the game so the ninja in this game could be snagging the assassin's iconic look to better fit the game. However if this is the standing opinion, we might not get a ninja class in the game by name, but rather the ninja class by name of assassin, but by name alone.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

On only 1 occasion did DRK have a scythe and that was FFXI. There's better precedent for DRK to use a sword and shield than there is for them using a scythe. Also, you're forgetting FF2, wherein Leon the original dark knight, was a spear/shield specialist. Cecil was also a sword and shield user, rather than a greatsword user and he's basically the foundation of the entire DRK archetype in FF. It's only in the most recent iterations that DRK has become synonymous with greatswords.

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Wellll, lets see how that holds up.

FF2: Favored weapons were two handed, specifically Axe and Spear. While not as proficient with it as an axe, his most powerful weapon is a spear.

FF3: Sword and shield were options not sure how useful/prevalent though. Seems equal with others.

F4: Both sword and shield as well as spears where used. Mostly spears favored with the Dark Knight. The Dark Knight art often looked like a dragoon and wielded a spear. In "The After Years" When facing his evil self, the dark knight it is wielding a spear as well.

F10-2: Actually a tank class that can wield a sword 1 handed and 2. But no mention of a shield.

F11: Two handed weapons, Sword and Scythe.

However, judging that the job will probably be from the Gladiator class to keep people from specializing in both Paladin and Dark Knight, there is a good possibility of a shield and sword dark knight. However I still think that a new precedence of a two sword wielding dark knight could be there. Likely hood is not much though.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Zero Argument here. This is the assassin iconic outfit there is zero disputing that fact.

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Saying there is zero disputing it when you're not actually tackling the counterargument doesn't mean that there's no disputing it. It just means that you're ignoring any counterargument because you're too married to your own idea that you can't fathom any possible contradiction.

You must not have read anything I said concerning the actual break down of the outfit because, if you did, you'd see that almost none of their garments actually the same. All you looked at was a vague similarity in the color scheme and a facewrap and immediately concluded that they were the same thing.

Compare Yugiri's hood, mask, loose shirt, and arm guards to this:

http://www.ffcompendium.com/jobimages/3-ninjaarc-a.jpg

Yugiri's outfit is essentially that (the NIN outfit) with a purple color scheme and no embellishment on the hood.

Seriously. Go and break down the specific garments that are being worn between the classic NIN, the FFTA/2 Assassin, and Yugiri. Yugiri's outfit has way more in common with NIN than Assassin. The only major similarity between Yugiri and the Assassin is the ears and the mask (but the head wrap is all Assassin). Everything else is completely different.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Didn't Yoshida say that Ninja will never be tank in this game?
They also didn't like being seen, or their presence being known at all. Which is the opposite of what tanks want.

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True, so that would lend itself to being a stealth support debuff class if they wanted to go strictly historically accurate in a playable version. However the tactics OTHER than being out of sight was a host of defensive tactics which do go in line with being a tank at some odd angle. Both of these would be closer to accurate than an DPS ninja.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

If you actually WATCH the video the creator was comparing fake Video Game Ninjas to REAL ones. Better luck next time on this one.

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I did, and he's still not using real historical ninjas. He's using the modern concept of the ninja that was exaggerated to create the video game ninjas that he's bashing. His concept of a ninja is only marginally more accurate than the ones the video game uses (dangling upside down and crawling around on rooftops is not something that a ninja would do all the time, much less break someone's neck).

His "real" ninjas are all running around in the "trademark" ninja garb in which there is not a lick of evidence that ninja actually wore. He also acts as if ninja were absolutely and totally obsessed with keeping their identities hidden by concealing their faces (seriously, he's massively hung up on this). A vast majority of the time a ninja would be running around looking like a peasant, blending into crowds because it's a helluva lot easier to get away when you look inconspicuous than when you're dressed "like a ninja" (even at night; hiding behind something or looking like an innocent bystander is *infinitely* more effective than trying to hide in shadows), not to mention that a vast majority of ninja work was just like modern day spycraft: gathering information, sabotage, and only *rarely* killing someone (even then, more likely to be accomplished with poison or some other indirect method). Blending into the background is also why the traditional ninja weapons were old farm tools or very small, easily hidden weapons (real shuriken are tiny and the "throwing star" never really used; shuriken were more like large throwing needles or kunai): the ninja would look like a peasant working in the field, harvesting crops rather than an obvious threat.

The "ninja outfit" that he goes on and one about is a construct of popular culture, not history. It was derived from kabuki theater where the stagehands who ran around behind the actors were dressed in black so that they blended in with the black backdrop. Since someone walking up behind an actor kind of signal an impending assassination/attack which ruins the surprise, the "assassin" would be dressed as a stagehand so that everyone ignored him and "kill" the actor with no one suspecting. Since assassinations are pretty popular in historical plays and a technique like that only works until everyone expects it, people started equating an actor dressed in the stagehand's outfit as the stereotypical "ninja", much like people think that spies are like James Bond. The different colored suits were simply reverse extrapolation of the black suit as people tried to account for straight black being bad camouflage (unless you're, you know, in a kabuki theater using a black backdrop).

That video has less to do with historical ninjas (as in "actually happened way back when") than it does with the modern day concept of a ninja extrapolated in reverse by people who love ninjas more than history. It's just like the modern view of the samurai, cowboy, or almost any other popular historical archetype (interesting note: the code of Bushido was actually invented by Japanese Imperialists as propaganda as a way to mythologize their heritage rather than realize that samurai were simply a caste of people with swords that were often little more than celebrated policemen). People are less interested in the bland reality than they are in exaggeration and "rule of cool". The guy obviously *likes* ninjas and has more than a bit of a weeaboo streak in him, but that's basically blinded him to any idea that the ninja might not be as cool as he thought they were.