AOE Spam Fest <Please remove it>

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

No, you missed the point of his argument that was being defused. He was stating that multiple mobs was not "Final Fantasy" because he diddn't like the fact that it was harder to keep track of when it is was real time.
Yet, multiple mobs was still a stable of Final Fantasy 12, which is also a 3d continual time game.

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I guess Ill set the record straight on what -my- point was. To quote myself from earlier in the thread.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

Some of you seem to be missing the point. Its not about how many monsters you fight, its about keeping control of the ones you do. Spamming abilities on monsters that you aren't even sure of their exact location because of the clusterfuck going on isn't Final Fantasy. Most of the Final Fantasies are turn based so it doesn't matter how many enemies you are fighting.

In case some of you weren't aware, trash pulls are actually allowed to be difficult content and not something that is just in the way of your reward. I'd rather have fight two or three challenging trash monsters than 8+ monsters that make it nearly impossible to determine who is hitting what.

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I never, not once, said that multiple monsters wasn't something that Final Fantasy games do. I said that spamfest wasn't something that Final Fantasy games do.

As for your example of fighting in previous titles, even if Lux_Rayna wasn't spot on, those tactics tend to be for end game leveling up or simply when you are getting too strong for the monsters you are fighting. When you are playing through those games, you don't spam your AOE abilities without care of what is the most important monster to kill first.

And for FF12, you can easily keep track of what the character you are playing as is doing in that game. I don't expect to be able to see every ability that every teammate does, but at least knowing what monster I am hitting would be nice.

The only problem I have with so many mobs is the fact that AOE wise all the classes/jobs are not equal. Take for instance a monk compared to a black Mage. the difference is huge in terms of AOE dmg output. Hopefully they add more AOE attacks for monks at higher levels (even if that makes little sense) cuz right now I wouldnt exactly call the game balanced on terms of AOE attacks between different jobs.

Yeah I just started FF1 again yesterday, OMW to first castle to save the princess I encountered 8 mobs in one battle. Fought 3 wolfs, 3 gremlin things, and 2 skeleton soldiers of course I got my ass handed to me.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

.. are you even trying to fight monsters above your level at all?

Again, this is the equivilant of people complaining that Decent Challenge monsters are too easy, completely ignoring the even match, tough, very tough, and incredibly tough monsters all together.

Go to Northern Thanalan and take on the camps of 54-59 Diremites.

Or the southern tip of Southern Thanalan and tick off the 57-59 Sphere Doblyns (47,53).

If you've got a well geared group they should be manageable, but if you mess up, they're going to mess you up.

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Unless you are talking about killing lvl 58 monsters for the simple joy of killing them, who cares what lvl 50 players can do. When you compare exp rates of monsters 6+ over the highest party member to 3-4+, you are going to be getting a lot less exp from monsters 6+ levels over. Unless you could handle a 4 link, the 3-4+ range is always going to be better because of the exp multiplier. I'm not even sure if a group leveling up could handle two monsters that are 8 levels over their group and when you only get 1k exp in the same time you could get 4k, its stupid not to use the spamfest tactics.

If you want to compare exp rate:challenge in relation to FFXI, there were no link multipliers and you couldn't chain monsters below even match. I'm sure groups would have used the same tactics in FFXI if they could get the same, if not more exp, per kill from fighting decent matches compared to incredibly tough.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

Unless you are talking about killing lvl 58 monsters for the simple joy of killing them, who cares what lvl 50 players can do. When you compare exp rates of monsters 6+ over the highest party member to 3-4+, you are going to be getting a lot less exp from monsters 6+ levels over. Unless you could handle a 4 link, the 3-4+ range is always going to be better because of the exp multiplier. I'm not even sure if a group leveling up could handle two monsters that are 8 levels over their group and when you only get 1k exp in the same time you could get 4k, its stupid not to use the spamfest tactics.

If you want to compare exp rate:challenge in relation to FFXI, there were no link multipliers and you couldn't chain monsters below even match. I'm sure groups would have used the same tactics in FFXI if they could get the same, if not more exp, per kill from fighting decent matches compared to incredibly tough.

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Go kill an H-1 Lv. 63-64 armor in the new stronghold and tell me how that went. It's for keys you can make gears of it!

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Originally Posted by Firon

Go kill an H-1 Lv. 63-64 armor in the new stronghold and tell me how that went. It's for keys you can make gears of it!

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That is supposed to be challenging, not used for xp. Not sure what you are trying to prove with that statement.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

Unless you are talking about killing lvl 58 monsters for the simple joy of killing them, who cares what lvl 50 players can do. When you compare exp rates of monsters 6+ over the highest party member to 3-4+, you are going to be getting a lot less exp from monsters 6+ levels over. Unless you could handle a 4 link, the 3-4+ range is always going to be better because of the exp multiplier. I'm not even sure if a group leveling up could handle two monsters that are 8 levels over their group and when you only get 1k exp in the same time you could get 4k, its stupid not to use the spamfest tactics.

If you want to compare exp rate:challenge in relation to FFXI, there were no link multipliers and you couldn't chain monsters below even match. I'm sure groups would have used the same tactics in FFXI if they could get the same, if not more exp, per kill from fighting decent matches compared to incredibly tough.

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But between that stance and the one you just previously clarified, you've stated a "I want to keep my cake and eat it too." Argument.

If you're wanting fights that are slower paced and you want have a full standing ideal control over, you're going to lose out on EXP rate. Even if you toughen the monsters in general, it will only serve to change which monsters or which means players will exploit the system to kill the monsters for the best XP yeild.

To create an alternate system of leader + Links (Tougher mobs vs weaker)which wound up being canceled because it narrowed the use of the camps drastically. Now we have groups of monsters that link depending on the strength of your party.

The issue you're having, spam-happy camps where you cannot find or maintain a certain target, is actually the result of several other problems collecting together to create your issue.

First off, your ability to see what is going on in battle - is mostly a UI issue. This can be somewhat controlled with proper use of Chat Filters, but mostly you'll see an improvement in targeting, monster hate understanding and the general flow of the battle once 2.0 hits.

Now your issue with enemies dieing too fast is a matter primarily of target choice. Weaker monsters die fast to AoEs and players who want to see an easy means of getting XP or Spirit bond will always choose the path of least resistance.

However, buttoning up these avenues is not something Yoshi, nor a good number of the players, support. So instead of narrowing the field of choices, the solution should be providing alternative choices - something that is more tacticly orientated that has a comparable reward system.

Primarily what we have for that right now is Raids, and that needs to be expanded upon. The problem with the arguments you are making for your desires on the game is that you're trying to back it up with reasoning that are flawed and unimaginative, not the raw desire that you want something different from AoEs.

You made that mistake right at your thread title. Flat out removing content is never a nice thing to do, period. Ideally what you want to do is create more options for people who have different playstyles and desires, so that like-minded players can find one another and do the things they enjoy together.

We can argue on what someone could or could not keep track of, or whether or not you decided to AoE farm in a Final Fantasy game or not (I distinctly recall a certain camp near the elf kingdom in FF1 in which my primary means of getting XP was AoE blasting a bunch of weak monsters over and over again.) But the primary point behind that argument is that people's desires and play methods widely differ - as wide as their differing opinions on what makes a Final Fantasy.

I'd like to get you to agree as far as that point - instead of removing content in existence, to add another layer to the game that accommodates your desires, before progressing here. Otherwise what you are asking is to limit the experience for other players as opposed to enrich it - a point that hits a conversational brick wall with me.

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Originally Posted by Skies

Biggs.
After you die for the 12th time to a Djigga's poison or the 20th time to a Snurble's Dia you come tell me that DoTs on a player don't matter, or when your archer gets bound when he pulls an aggro by accident and dies because of it.
Seriously!

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If all that is as serious as you say, then explain to me why noone spends any effort making medicines to combat those things, or bothers using materia that bolsters the defense against the very things your saying. I am not claiming these things NEVER happen, I am stating that they happen so infrequently there is no reason to plan ahead of time for them. When is the last time you used an antidote or thought about beefing your boots up with chocobo down materia? The fact is, you haven't, because there is no reason too.

No where in my post did I say these things don't exist in the game, only that they are used so sparsly and with such little effect, most of the player base doesn't go into the field concerned with what will happen if they get paralyzed in a fight or poisoned when out on there on own.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

You do realize that very tough and incredibly tough monsters in FFXI were, a minimum of six levels over the player fighting them, correct.

The gist of what you are saying is "Fighting Decent Challenge Mobs is trite and boring." To which I would agree, BECAUSE YOURE FIGHTING DECENT CHALLENGE MONSTERS!!!"

NEVER has a DC been an issue to fight when properly geared and subbed in FFXI, especially in situations that you would solo!!!!!

Why is this concept so hard to understand!? You are complaining about a field of monsters not designed to be engaged with in a group! Those that are, actually meet your demands.

You are stating one thing and doing another. Complaining about the lack of challenge without seeking it.

As you level climb, do a solo leve 2 levels above yours and survive, if you can do that with ease, try three.

In parties, minimum of six levels above you.

You will see the difference. Attacking weak monsters and claiming there is no challenge in the game is not constructive thinking at all.

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First, you don't need to give me the gist of what I am saying, I know what I said. Second, you make a HUGE amount of assumptions about how I play the game without knowing a single thing about me. Third, for the purpose of my post, pretend I was only talking about mobs you would solo or party against for xp. When I said "obviously higher mobs" in my op i was referring to things 12 levels or higher that no one person or party would have any business messing with. I am well aware that DC mobs aren't an issue, so lets put this another way:

Say your party pulls a group of beastmen that contain the jobs of archer, conj, and warrior. Now ideally the archer would use bind effects on top of its normal damage output, thereby mucking up either the tank or one of the healers in your party, the conj would cast cure spells to keep its party members alive longer, and the warrior would dive right into AOE DD's that would hit more than just the party's tank. The fact is all of these things DO happen already, however they aren't done in any way that really actually hinders your party for more than a few seconds. The conj mob ussually only cures itself, the bind effect caused by archers lasts for all of about 10 seconds, and (most of the time) war style mobs only use single target DD skills. These things are in the game, but not at any level that requires any sort of tactic besides spam AOE move, and wait out DOT effects for 10 seconds. Not challenging. Not stimulating. And after a few dozen times, not really all that fun.

I feel a little alone when I say this, but I love the amount of mobs you fight in FFXIV. I also enjoy endless combo chains as a dragoon.

Biggs, I apologize. The first part of my post was directed at you, the rest was a rant in general and not.

Now onto the subject matter.

No matter what you do, the fights when repeated ad naseum will dissolve yourself into a grind. Any player with a modicum of experience in FFXI or any other grind-based MMO will understand this. Also, if you've enough sense to pay attention to the trends, you realize that no matter what fights are 'interesting' people will always pick the safest, most mundane, and most profitable means of gaining XP/Hr with the least amount of effort - period, end of discussion.

You do not grind for stimulation, you grind to push out XP and to get levels. That's it. It's never been and can never be an entertaining proposition as it is presented in any of your arguments.

To also speak on the subject of beastmen camps. It all depends on what beastmen camps you chose. For example, if you attack a NM surrounded by a pack of mages, and your tank is too close to your party, you're going to have a bad time due to Spell spam. The fights in lower end strongholds do wind up being chaotic, but to some, that's half the fun of it. Now, you do that for four hours on end, of course you're going to get bored of it. And if you do ONLY that, you're going to get bored sick of it and not want to do it again.

Some people, however, are find with those camps as is. And for good reason. For those who DO NOT AoE spam, due to availability (Say it's just a pair of people going in quick to grab a few tapers) the fights are much more involved, entertaining, an accessible. And the deeper you go in, the more difficult those fights even with parties, as more NMs, and stronger mob variants become available.

You make these fights any more in depth then the current trend, I guarantee you that they will get skipped for something easier. Look how quickly Castra Novum became a no-man's land, in spite of the valuables that are there.

You can't excerpt the level of control you're asking for in an open environment an expect it to be successful. Additionally attempting to create that in an open environment on the level which you are requesting, which is a global change for all monsters, would in fact be a game-breaker for many. Again, taking away options isn't healthy unless it's a blatant exploit. And I wouldn't call AoE Burns an exploit - especially seeming Yoshi has already stated support for power leveling, which is far more on the darker shade of grey.

I do agree that there should be an outlet for the desire to XP as a party, in situations that has you deeply engaged into the combat. I do not agree that it should come at the cost of current methods that players chose.