Paladin Reworks??

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Sorry but your point is irrelevant in regards to times affecting 90second burst jobs, as fight design in ShB allowed for fights where burst job like Warrior and Dark Knight to have a stronger showing where there was more downtime during fights, versus fights with full uptime gave sustain jobs like Paladin had a stronger showing. Then GNB being more hybrid of the two types, but leaning more to sustain.

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I'm not denying that, try to read more carefully... I'm saying with various burst windows, a class can be penalized, not for being a burst class or sustained damage class, but because of its very own timer that aligns poorly with the boss itself. If you still don't get what I mean, I guess that's alright, but I'm not sure how I can say it more clearly.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Overall having various buffs windows was not a bad thing, allowed for creativity, allowed for more engaging planning, and allowed for both burst and sustain damage type jobs to be effective. 2 minute buff meta is more punishing, 1 death can throw everything out of alignment, having certain mechanics happen during buff windows can lead to janky alignment issues, p7s for example where some fail to hold buffs before being yeeted up at the 6minute buff window, while others don't, causing a weaker 6 minute and subsequent 2 minute windows. While before this 2 minute meta it wasn't as bad since you could still line up buffs with trick attack after deaths or misaligned buff, so you don't lose a use.

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1 death is supposed to throw everything out of alignment. That's also why you're not supposed to die. Having certain mechanics happen during buff windows is supposed to lead to janky alignment, because you're supposed to either solve the mechanics differently to not have that janky alignment, either to delay and burst later, which both take team effort. You can't exactly blame a game where you're supposed to play as 8 for asking you to play as 8. All the variously timed burst does is make it a solo-focused game, which, I'm pretty sure, is what everyone and his cousin is screaming about down there in General Discussion.

At the end of the line, I do not care for either meta, but pretending the 2-min meta is bad because you have to play as a team, not die or "having a 90s timed burst is SO different from having a 120s timed burst" really sounds to me like a tantrum. All I was arguing about was that maybe, since the PLD rework will happen anyway, we should wait and see, but yeah. Whatevs.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Same thing, since some classes will combine better together, because their bursts are aligned, they will have more dps than any other combination. That combination will become mandatory in wanna-be hardcore raid parties, some classes will be excluded, much more severely than MCH is right now, and the balance will be a mess. Sacrificing the "my burst is uniquely timed" part of a class "identity" for preventing such meta is pretty worthwhile, to me.

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Yet since Gordias and Midas, we have never had more class DPS disparity than we do right now. I would argue the two minute burst meta has lead to this awful class balance and jobs like PLD/WAR having less than 10 total worldwide clears in P8s week one, so your stance doesn't hold. You don't need two minute burst meta to balance jobs within each other reasonably; Creator, SB and SHB proved that.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

I've seen and read more people ask for changes for the PLD than people wanting it to stay the same, except on this forum, so yeah, you're not the majority, and therefore, they won't listen to you, especially when most of the work seems already done. If there IS an issue after the rework, and the majority of people agree on that, then you can discuss changes and so on, but right now, it's pointless.

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I've seen a few proposing changes for PLD not because they want PLD to change, but because they're afraid of what SE will do to PLD and want to try to make the changes less bad. Doesn't matter if I'm minority or majority or if the work is already done, voicing my opinion and thoughts is the right thing to do and I will do that no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Yet since Gordias and Midas, we have never had more class DPS disparity than we do right now. I would argue the two minute burst meta has lead to this awful class balance and jobs like PLD/WAR having less than 10 total worldwide clears in P8s week one, so your stance doesn't hold. You don't need two minute burst meta to balance jobs within each other reasonably; Creator, SB and SHB proved that.

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I... uh... yeah. Hmm. That's kinda... yeah. I'll just agree to disagree with you and be on my merry way.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

you're supposed to play as 8 for asking you to play as 8. All the variously timed burst does is make it a solo-focused game, which, I'm pretty sure, is what everyone and his cousin is screaming about down there in General Discussion.

At the end of the line, I do not care for either meta, but pretending the 2-min meta is bad because you have to play as a team, not die or "having a 90s timed burst is SO different from having a 120s timed burst" really sounds to me like a tantrum. All I was arguing about was that maybe, since the PLD rework will happen anyway, we should wait and see, but yeah. Whatevs.

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i agree with this, 2 minute burst are not that bad. its like a basic guide line to balance instead of just make everything spread all way. and just like you said the job identity are not define from 1 2 3 or 2 minute burst time. i understand right now every tank feel the same ( they should differ how tanks mitigate damage ) and changes are scary but if this make job balance are better and game better why not ?

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Originally Posted by krisatriya

but if this make job balance are better and game better why not ?

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Because jobs were more balanced before the two minute meta and more fun. Making jobs less fun while also less balanced is the opposite of better. Even if they try to make it more balanced, if it's at the cost of less fun, that's not better either.

Why not make it more balanced while making it more fun without two minute meta?

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Because jobs were more balanced before the two minute meta and more fun. Making jobs less fun while also less balanced is the opposite of better. Even if they try to make it more balanced, if it's at the cost of less fun, that's not better either.

Why not make it more balanced while making it more fun without two minute meta?

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You clearly don't understand how the focus around 2 min came to be, and don't get there will always be burst phases because that's how buffs work

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Originally Posted by FireMage

You clearly don't understand how the focus around 2 min came to be, and don't get there will always be burst phases because that's how buffs work

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It came to be because many players including my self kept asking for "this buff" and "that buff" to be aligned and shifted together into two minutes because we all thought it would make the game better and more fun. Unfortunately, now that we have it, it turns out it did not make the game better, more fun or more balanced and many people, including myself, want it gone.

There will indeed always be burst phases, and that is okay. There were burst phases in HW, SB and SHB. NIN has always been a very good pick in every expansion because of Trick Attack/Mug, but only in EW has every single job been aligned perfectly with it. Even for the jobs that did not align well on 60s/120s burst windows, they were still more balanced than they are now that every job does align well on 60s/120s. More importantly, they were more fun to play and more jobs felt more varied than they do currently. While there will always be a meta, some jobs will be better than others, and there will be ideal comps around certain buff timings in the fight design especially, having every job feel exactly the same on the exact same timers is not fun and nor has it made the game more balanced. The game balance is the worst it's been since Gordias.

Fun is subjective, but seeing as you don't know the difference between objective and subjective, I'll let you embarrass your self again.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Fun is subjective

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Precisely, therefore stop bringing it up in matters of objectivity. Also you're flat out lying again by saying the balance is worse now than any part of HW. But hey keep trolling and acting like you know what balance is when you know nothing

I do not recall any instances of Savage raid fights where less than 10 worldwide of any particular job was unable to clear week 1 and the fight needed nerfing in Creator, SB or SHB. Therefore, game balance is the worst it's been since Gordias and Midas. This is a factual and undeniable statement. You are delusional (which everyone knows you already are) if you believe otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I do not recall any instances of Savage raid fights where less than 10 worldwide of any particular job was unable to clear week 1 and the fight needed nerfing in Creator, SB or SHB. Therefore, game balance is the worst it's been since Gordias and Midas. This is a factual and undeniable statement. You are delusional (which everyone knows you already are) if you believe otherwise.

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Hey remember when PLD was flat out bad the whole expansion? Remember MCH being garbage? AST sucking until they made cards good,, and then WHM being effectively shelved once that occured? No one wanting MNK because it contributed nothing but Blunt up? That's already over a third of the total amount of Jobs that had significant issues throughout HW. If you're going to be ignorant, then don't post