Recognizing parasistic game design decision

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Some people seem confused or did not watch the video obviously. Parasitic game design is a very broad term. If content is created for the sole purpose of being a time sink and is not added to later on and effectively abandoned then under the strict definition used in the video multiple areas of FF14 fall under. Eureka without a doubt falls under this as once Stormblood finished they stopped caring about it completely. Bozdja and Zadnor both fall under this definition until you realize one slight change and that was the ability to use it to level from 71 to 80.

The goal of the thread is to recognize features that exist and call them out if they ever try to put them in this MMO. I have a lot of faith in Yoshi P and his dev team but I have very little faith in Square Enix as a company given their track record over the last 10 years.

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These in and of themselves are not bad though. You are trying to paint them as universally bad.

Your examples weren't just stopped because the hell of it. They were stopped because their stories were completed. They literally served their purpose and continue to serve their purpose even after the game has moved on. The only time these systems are bad is if they heavily influence the rest of the game and are made useless by the next release. None of the systems you list for FFXIV do this. Eureka, not useless due to some great glams and the challenge groups that do BA (seriously there are discord dedicated to it). Bozja and Zadnor are the some on that front. Deep Dungeons continue to serve the purpose of leveling tools and way to try out new classes, along with titles, glams and other drops. And none of it is needed to progress.

The Echo was added to Eureka in 5.1 IIRC, meaning they did update the zones. There were some other changes as well, though I don't remember them off the top of my head.

However, in the end, does it matter? They are just other things you can spend your time doing. Does it power up your character outside the content? No, but that doesn't matter. Not everything has to do with making you stronger in all content, sometimes, you just need to break off and do something different.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Some people seem confused or did not watch the video obviously. Parasitic game design is a very broad term. If content is created for the sole purpose of being a time sink and is not added to later on and effectively abandoned then under the strict definition used in the video multiple areas of FF14 fall under. Eureka without a doubt falls under this as once Stormblood finished they stopped caring about it completely. Bozdja and Zadnor both fall under this definition until you realize one slight change and that was the ability to use it to level from 71 to 80. .

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You're the one who did not watch the video if you're still making that claim. That was just one characteristic of parasitic game design, but the video goes on to clarify that not all throwaway content is parasitic. If it doesn't modify the core gameplay, then it's not a parasitic system; it's a minigame. You're confusing the two concepts. None of the content that you're calling out is temporarily changing the core gameplay in any way the way that parasitic systems do. Eureka has no relevance outside of Eureka, so it's a minigame. If Eureka were to have provided a crucial power boost for the expansion's duration before being completely discarded in the follow up, then it would have been parasitic. It didn't do that. It's simply a minigame that you can still do to this day.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

You're the one who did not watch the video if you're still making that claim. That was just one characteristic of parasitic game design, but the video goes on to clarify that not all throwaway content is parasitic. If it doesn't modify the core gameplay, then it's not a parasitic system; it's a minigame. You're confusing the two concepts. None of the content that you're calling out is temporarily changing the core gameplay in any way the way that parasitic systems do. Eureka has no relevance outside of Eureka, so it's a minigame. If Eureka were to have provided a crucial power boost for the expansion's duration before being completely discarded in the follow up, then it would have been parasitic. It didn't do that. It's simply a minigame that you can still do to this day.

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Temporarily they do have core features, like if you want the most powerful weapon (only slightly lol) you do need to do Eureka. Squadrons for a short period are some seriously good exp. (The point not to argue having temporary core features is a problem, just that they have and then lose, for some individuals, their core features as you progress through them- becoming throw away content for some players, unless you're explicitly and only addressing borrowed power which is reaaaaalllllyy throw away, but the video discuses other systems besides that which don't fit this story as well).

I think everyone is pretty agreed on borrowed power being just one heck of a no system, but it's why I said I think including Garrisons or some of Warframe's content island concepts into the discussion instantly made everything far more murky.

Garrisons still provide things, like achievements, unique items, and gold- gold always has a purpose. In an weak sense Garrisons now act fat retainers. They still provide passive income, probably on the scale that our retainers do now (though they used to be insane gold generators). Borrowed power just leaps off a cliff at the end of an expansion, I have no defense for that system- Garrisons however is still a content that still has 'some' benefits. Just like many FFXIV systems that are pushed off into a corner. Similarly many content islands in Warframe have benefits to the core game, though not neatly tied back in- really weak tie ins. Like glamour, or rarely a warframe itself. Those content islands do have value even long after they're gone, though they don't tie very well back into the core structure.

If we removed content islands and garrisons, like systems, and JUST discussed borrowed power I would say this thread is far more black and white. But I find it a bit disgruntling the hop back and forth, almost limbo like procedures, some people are using to label some systems parasitic (I think the term used previously "supplemental" works better in many cases, leave parasitic for specifically borrowed power) meanwhile suggesting FFXIV has none.. even though there are many similar situations of fates of content (of course some that are still appreciates, some people still enjoy garrisons- though clearly the content as a whole was rolled out very negatively lol.. and people are upset that it's not updated anymore too).


I don't agree comparing Borrowed Power to Blue Mage, or some other things, but given what the video has stated there is enough wiggle room to slap a lot of things to that title of parasitic. It's not fair to label Garrisons parasitic (when they still have value that absolutely does translate back into the core experience, meanwhile preventing some FFXIV systems that do very similar temporarily lived tasks, some clearly by design (doing their supplemental job, which makes labeling them parasitic feel a little weird sometimes when they feel feature complete and just 'done').

Borrowed power even does offer a short period of gameplay core mechanical feature, but then it's stolen away- which is clearly one of the most annoying parts of it. Wasted effort, the feeling at least, and sadness when something you really liked came together and then was lost. Clearly in Eureka if you earn that power you don't get it else where but you do keep it when you return to that content- that's a bit different already (though both systems do help you acquire new gear and such, though borrowed power is far more mandatory). Though part of the video was talking about a short lived "trend", so (borrowed power, even if it offers some temporary core help) still fits the definition set up by the video just fine.

It's things like content islands or Garrisons which can, even later, still be of use to the player, and if those count, then we've a lot more that fits this definition. While I think the video is well spoken I don't really like the grayness that goes between mini-game, completed supplemental content (Eureka), and something like Garrison (or perhaps it's not grayness, and it was all intentional but that means a lot of people are mistaking FFXIV for not having these systems when it at least has a few)- it (Garrisons for example) still has purpose with achievements, glamours, and gold, it's just poorly treated content. Doesn't really feel quite the same as borrowed power, Garrisons still has purpose to some players (like content islands), if the definition is big systems that branch off of the core system (utilizing those other systems and hardly giving back, yet gold and gear still count it into this definition), and perhaps adding the addendum of left alone after creation, then obviously many systems in FFXIV meet this definition (even if some of them are appreciated). If it's they have no use what so ever, then Garrisons (even though not well received) doesn't fit this definition, neither do content islands (which are what I'm pretty sure the video was referring to about warframe). Thus I do believe the video implicates some FFXIV systems for better or worse, honestly some of the systems that I think fit the rules set by the video are still fine systems- but people saying they watched the video I'd like to see rules laid out that clearly implicate a garrison or content island but yet forgive say a squadron or eureka. Eureka is basically a content island, many features that a warframe island has there are in our eurekas (though some of the warframe islands are way worse). Some people still love the Eureka islands though, and they do get to keep glamours and money as a result of their experience these islands do have some feedback into the core game (but this concept goes for those garrisons, and content islands, etc- it feels like it approaches double standard to allow the labeling of other game's systems like that but then not our own, even if we enjoy ours and think theirs are not as fun).

There is a gray line that the video details that I think people are using bias to protect their game and yet use that same line to hook in many systems from other games.

Temporary systems and borrowed power aren't inherently bad. Just because something won't be useful forever does mean it's not useful now. Even simple ilevel systems aren't immune from that. "Why should I bother gearing up in 5.5 when EW is coming?" Because even if your gear current gear will be useless in the next expansion you still need it today.

Legion artifacts and the Heart of Azeroth are actually great examples of how to do borrowed power well. Adding new powers mid-expansion makes the players feel stronger in a way that just adding more stats to gear can never match. So what if we lost all the azerites and essences in SL? That doesn't somehow negate how much fun they were at the time.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Temporary systems and borrowed power aren't inherently bad. Just because something won't be useful forever does mean it's not useful now. Even simple ilevel systems aren't immune from that. "Why should I bother gearing up in 5.5 when EW is coming?" Because even if your gear current gear will be useless in the next expansion you still need it today.

Legion artifacts and the Heart of Azeroth are actually great examples of how to do borrowed power well. Adding new powers mid-expansion makes the players feel stronger in a way that just adding more stats to gear can never match. So what if we lost all the azerites and essences in SL? That doesn't somehow negate how much fun they were at the time.

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Legion artifacts were great, in my opinion. Those were borrowed power done right. Azerite armor and the like though...that was terrible. Absolutely terrible. They've basically been doubling/tripling/quadrupling down on the worst aspects of what could otherwise be fine systems for years and then seem genuinely shocked when people get mad.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Legion artifacts were great, in my opinion. Those were borrowed power done right. Azerite armor and the like though...that was terrible. Absolutely terrible. They've basically been doubling/tripling/quadrupling down on the worst aspects of what could otherwise be fine systems for years and then seem genuinely shocked when people get mad.

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Having serious loss aversion it all sounds blarg to me . . . lol, but I think it's interesting to see here too some like the systems.

Do you think these systems would be better if they stay but only for their content space? Similar to how Eureka(s) work? (To be frank I tried to google this a few times and didn't come up with answers that didn't relate to long videos I didn't want to watch at the moment lol, half suspecting it was already the case but reading how you give up the legion artifact for story reasons made me think it's not >.<).

Also since I've only read about these systems, is the main reason the later ones are worse is how you empower them and some of their functions? Just trying to grow knowledge from those who played it. As I said "imo" they all sound "no thanks" but that's mainly due to my loss aversion (also my suggestion on why some of Eureka-content-consumable skills might be better used if it was "use X times to learn" or something, as you could overcome some casual player's loss aversion by the greener pastures over the bend (rather than "eh someone else will do it", plays also into collect-a-holics lol), Eureka growth systems don't bother me since they're technically not lost just... focused into a specific content only.

Everything looks parasitic when every functional reward actually becomes useless as time moves on.

The only thing keeping people playing is novelty and the threat of losing their housing - because there's no tangible reward that functionally makes your character better for more than a few months at a time. XIV's design could be said to be the peak of parasitic game design.

Yoshi seems to think that people will stop playing if they acquire BiS - when this isn't the case at all, but by making BiS something you only acquire at the very end of an expansion you will ensure that people don't play much once they get it since there is NOTHING TO USE THE BIS ON.


It's time we acquired the means to max ourselves out with insane grinds like waiting for a 10 minute 20% chance gather window to get an item that allows us to fight a super-boss, RIGHT on Expansion release, and then allow us to enjoy the fruits of our work for the entire Expac.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Also since I've only read about these systems, is the main reason the later ones are worse is how you empower them and some of their functions? Just trying to grow knowledge from those who played it.

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A lot of the WoW complaints about artifacts and the Heart are exaggerated. People talk about an 'infinite grind' but that's only sort of true. The power was designed to be collected almost passively over time rather than something you actively farmed. You COULD hardcore farm it but there was minimal benefit in doing so. Think of it like tomestones in XIV. You CAN spam dungeons to cap out within hours of the reset, but there's no huge benefit to doing so compared to capping slowly throughout the week.

As for the specific differences between artifacts and the heart, it's about the longevity. Legion artifacts were a single item that upgraded through the whole expansion. The Heart on the other hand was just part of bigger system that required frequent collection and then abandonment of other gear. Plus it also had several side systems like Benthic and Corrupted gear alongside it. Basically BfA was just a huge mess in terms of gearing. Artifacts weren't perfect but the system was MUCH more simple and easy to interact with.

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

These in and of themselves are not bad though. You are trying to paint them as universally bad.

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ok then name a reason why Eureka stopped at Baldesian Arsenal and nothing new was added to Eureka in Shadowbringers or Endwalker? It is effectively a 60 level grind fest for a single mount that could be deleted from the MMO and noone would notice.

Nothing new is going to be added to Bozdja or Zadnor either. In a few expansions noone will be able to get groups to do Delubrum as unlock BA there is no unique mount that looks cool and the Savage one is meh at best.

It all falls under the definition given in the video of content created to expire.