Yoshida on "carrying" other people

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

No, the point of roulettes is so that people actually have the ability to get parties together through duty finder matchmaking. Square does not give one care about your rewards nor should they because roulettes are for the benefit of first-timers not for vets.

Once again lazy vets want to take enjoyment from first timers for their own personal benefit. The people roulettes are designed for are running the content to experience the content, and your obsession with trivializing them for speed's sake is the opposite of what roulettes were designed for.

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No, you just want this content tailored to you instead of being tailored to what would be fun for a new player. Do you honestly think new players enjoy spending 60% of their big epic story confrontation dead just so you'll feel like the content was engaging for your skill level? Roulettes are for first timers to get groups; and the rewards exist to get vets to continue running old story content that they're SICK OF. Making it last longer isn't helping anyone.

Like I said multiple times now, if you want this crap to take forever make your own group and go do ultimates or self-impose restrictions on normal. Most people don't want to be doing Orbonne all evening, though.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

No, you just want this content tailored to you instead of being tailored to what would be fun for a new player. Do you honestly think new players enjoy spending 60% of their big epic story confrontation dead just so you'll feel like the content was engaging for your skill level? Roulettes are for first timers to get groups; and the rewards exist to get vets to continue running old story content that they're SICK OF. Making it last longer isn't helping anyone.

Like I said multiple times now, if you want this crap to take forever make your own group and go do ultimates or self-impose restrictions on normal. Most people don't want to be doing Orbonne all evening, though.

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Who put you in charge of deciding what first-timers want? Lots of people are going to be driven away if the game continues to have this reputation of being way too easy and coddling people who want everything handed to them with no effort.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I think this is something that often gets clouded over by overuse of certain buzz words. But there's a big difference between lesser skilled but actually trying. And blatant laziness or the you don't pay my sub mentality.

The problem arises essentially when players don't even try.. to play at even a basicly competent level and expect everyone else to carry them.

Again there's a big difference between carrying someone who's actually trying. And carrying someone who isn't.

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Oh, I agree that there's a difference. However, the effect on having less personal responsibility blurs the lines between the two.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So, "Take your leeches and be glad for them, or lose enjoyably tuned content." Guess that's fair. /s

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I don't know about fair or not, but people who want more "accountability" have them in Extreme/Savage/Ultimate contents. That is why I've always said kicking is a fine solution, especially in more difficult contents. But certain leniency might be appropriate for current Normal/Hard contents.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

I don't think you can just glitch over the bold text either because he is talking about 24 and 48 man raids, not light party content. If I remember right, in other interview he discussion more difficult 4 player content and that the development team find it limiting in the stuff they can add to it. Basically a "Savage" Dungeon would really just be an increase in monster HP and Stats.

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Indeed he is talking about alliance raid in this interview. I'm making the connection on what he said about "personal responsibility" with what he said about making difficult light party content. He said in this interview that the party size of alliance raids makes it easier. Therefore, a light party content would not have that luxury.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

The fact that you equate "lower[ing] the amount of personal responsibility" and "players who aren't as skilled at battle content" with "carrying" is very telling.

There are countless levels of performance in the game, but you sure wouldn't know it from reading the forums, where everyone is either a perfect execution god who never presses the wrong button in a rotation, or they're a leech who just stays on the ground for an entire fight.

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Well, that's the thing. "Carrying," like other words, are subjectively used. Regardless of whether it's because people are not as skilled or as knowledgeable of the fight or any other reason, the result is the same: that some people will have to compensate for others.

If you want to use another word for it, feel free.

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Also, nothing he said has anything to do with adding any other type of content to the game, just that alliance raids will continue to exist.

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If you read again what I said, I'm making the connection with what he is saying here with what he's said in the past.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Again I imagine the intention is the better players guide the less experienced, help them through and they appreciate it and learn from the experience. One reason we have a Mentor system too. NA/EU has taken that as "I play Ice mage and afk and the tryhards can carry me, whatever".

Our way of looking at it is rather toxic, because there's literally nothing in it for the ones carrying except punishment. You learn your class, gear up, practice the fight, do your best and are the reason a run goes smoothly and your "reward" is usually to be looked down on as an "elitist tryhard" and lose out on content you'd enjoy, such as Mythic 4 mans, or watch tanks and healers become gutted, because the community just isn't bothered to try or learn.

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Oh, I agree that it is well intended and the idea is simply about accessibility. That said, while it is not a personal complaint of mine, other people have complained about having to "carry" others that they feel are not putting in the effort. Regardless of whether they're right or not, Yoshida's statement here and the resulting difficulty level of the content still effectively means that "carrying" other people is an expected result. That is just how the content is designed.

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Originally Posted by TroySoFab

At no point did he mention carrying people in content. He just said 24-person raids were designed to be easy and relaxing. Misleading title.

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I simply used a word that people have used as a complaint as the effect is the same.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Who put you in charge of deciding what first-timers want? Lots of people are going to be driven away if the game continues to have this reputation of being way too easy and coddling people who want everything handed to them with no effort.

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Right, because this game is clearly struggling to maintain a solid player-base with that reputation, while hardcore MMO's like Wildstar are the blockbusters. Where did you get the impression that new players enjoy being dead for the majority of these pertinent story battles? New players get to die every 2 minutes to mechanics they don't understand, while groups wipe and bicker because everyone is so profoundly unhappy running this drawn out crap.

It's really not hard to piece together that new players would probably enjoy a smooth, quick run that they actually get to participate in.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Right, because this game is clearly struggling to maintain a solid player-base with that reputation, while hardcore MMO's like Wildstar are the blockbusters. Where did you get the impression that new players enjoy being dead for the majority of these pertinent story battles? New players get to die every 2 minutes to mechanics they don't understand, while groups wipe and bicker because everyone is so profoundly unhappy running this drawn out crap.

It's really not hard to piece together that new players would probably enjoy a smooth, quick run that they actually get to participate in.

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Well if you find yourself dead all the time your first time through casual content then that's a you problem. This stuff isn't even hard. Press your buttons, move out of the bad. It's that simple even you can do it.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's really not hard to piece together that new players would probably enjoy a smooth, quick run that they actually get to participate in.

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I do must repeat what I said at the OP:

I think they have tuned the difficulty well for the most parts. There should still be wipes for contents that are called raids, at least in the beginning, and even dungeons can be dangerous from time to time.

I do not think anyone (new or not) wants the current form of MS Roulette or Cape Westwind to be the norm for even "casual" contents.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Well if you find yourself dead all the time your first time through casual content then that's a you problem. This stuff isn't even hard. Press your buttons, move out of the bad. It's that simple even you can do it.

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lol, well it looks like you've run out of arguments and have resorted to passive aggressive nonsense; god that's a common trend on this forum.

If it's not even hard right now then who cares if we streamline it more so new players can have a faster, more pleasant experience? Are you really so bored you need to drag this "already easy" crap out just to fill your night, and drag the rest of us through it with you?

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

lol, well it looks like you've run out of arguments and have resorted to passive aggressive nonsense; god that's a common trend on this forum.

If it's not even hard right now then who cares if we streamline it more so new players can have a faster, more pleasant experience? Are you really so bored you need to drag this "already easy" crap out just to fill your night, and drag the rest of us down with you?

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There's no common ground to be found at all here so yeah I'm pretty much done trying with you. I recommend doing the right thing and putting a legitimate team effort into team content.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

There's no common ground to be found at all here so yeah I'm pretty much done trying with you. I recommend doing the right thing and putting a legitimate team effort into team content.

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It's STORY content designed for NEW PLAYERS. I get that for some reason you want it to be a massively tedious mess that takes forever, but you can't seriously believe that's what new players would enjoy. Hell, most of the veteran players who do roulettes don't enjoy it; a lot of people just eat the abandon penalty outright when they see it's a raid like Orbonne.

What you enjoy and what's actually good for the game are 2 COMPLETELY different things. Just try to remember that.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Indeed he is talking about alliance raid in this interview. I'm making the connection on what he said about "personal responsibility" with what he said about making difficult light party content. He said in this interview that the party size of alliance raids makes it easier. Therefore, a light party content would not have that luxury.


If you read again what I said, I'm making the connection with what he is saying here with what he's said in the past.

I simply used a word that people have used as a complaint as the effect is the same.

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Except its not. It seems like you are making an apples and oranges comparison here. Alliance raid and a hypothetical Savage dungeon. The entire point of alliance raid is for it to be easy, and for individual performance to not mean so much. If I out dps every dps player on my team as whm, it doesn't matter because the boss will still die in about the same amount of time. If I out dps every dps in a savage or ex trial, things won't go so well. The intent behind each type of content and what is required is different.