Alot of hate on new job iterations o.O

The only new job iteration I'm notably unhappy with is SCH, because in my eyes the funnest parts of the job were taken. That's just my opinion of course, not everyone will agree.

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Originally Posted by Poppet

Even with Stormblood being so-so story wise it was still balanced amazingly well. The story and everything was done so well this expansion but job balance was a second thought.

EGI person, MNK, AST and BRD got absolutely butchered despite them being the best they ever were in Stormblood. It's kind of insulting what they did to them. The hate for their reworks is pretty justified.

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BRD absolutely did not get "butchered", the quality of the core gameplay is still there, the problem is that 3 minute battle voice is a terrible stand-in for the lore identity of singing to support your allies.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

BRD absolutely did not get "butchered", the quality of the core gameplay is still there, the problem is that 3 minute battle voice is a terrible stand-in for the lore identity of singing to support your allies.

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While BRD's gameplay is still relatively the same, the direction changed. Utility was heavily removed with no stand-in and getting new abilities to focus solely on DPS, which is against BRD's lore and original class concept (Red job support hybrid), means that BRD's identity was lost for ShB. To me this is effectively "butchered".

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

While BRD's gameplay is still relatively the same, the direction changed. Utility was heavily removed with no stand-in and getting new abilities to focus solely on DPS, which is against BRD's lore and original class concept (Red job support hybrid), means that BRD's identity was lost for ShB. To me this is effectively "butchered".

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It has more utility than Dancer. It just doesn't have -damage- boosts.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

It has more utility than Dancer. It just doesn't have -damage- boosts.

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Absolutely incorrect from a pure simple amount of utility abilities to the actual impact of said abilities overall.

BRD Utility:

Battle Voice- 3 min
Nature's Minne- 90 seconds
Trobadour- 3 min
Warden's Paen- 45 seconds

DNC Utility:

Standard Finish- Always on
Technical Finish- 2 min
Devilment- 2 min
Curing Waltz- 1 min
Shield Samba- 3 min

In terms of Personal and Raid DPS boosting, Standard Finish alone will provide more dps boost to the team over it's duration then Battle voice. Technical Finish and Devilment make it a laugher. Curing Waltz will provide much more healing potential in all but the most high level situations in raid when you sync up with your healers, which means the vast majority of players will never get anything out of it, especially since they doubled the cooldown and curing waltz being available more often. Shield Samba and Trobadour are the same ability entirely under different names. All bard has over Dancer in the utility department is Warden's Paen, an ability that hasn't seen any high level usage since silence was Removed from WAR's berserk rotation. Heck if they were going to prune any support ability from Bard, that should have been it.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

Absolutely incorrect from a pure simple amount of utility abilities to the actual impact of said abilities overall.

BRD Utility:

Battle Voice- 3 min
Nature's Minne- 90 seconds
Trobadour- 3 min
Warden's Paen- 45 seconds

DNC Utility:

Standard Finish- Always on
Technical Finish- 2 min
Devilment- 2 min
Curing Waltz- 1 min
Shield Samba- 3 min

In terms of Personal and Raid DPS boosting, Standard Finish alone will provide more dps boost to the team over it's duration then Battle voice. Technical Finish and Devilment make it a laugher. Curing Waltz will provide much more healing potential in all but the most high level situations in raid when you sync up with your healers, which means the vast majority of players will never get anything out of it, especially since they doubled the cooldown and curing waltz being available more often. Shield Samba and Trobadour are the same ability entirely under different names. All bard has over Dancer in the utility department is Warden's Paen, an ability that hasn't seen any high level usage since silence was Removed from WAR's berserk rotation. Heck if they were going to prune any support ability from Bard, that should have been it.

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3 of those are -damage boosts-.

I know some people like to say "Party Utility" when they really mean damage boosts, but that's damage. It's bottom line.

It's not utility.

This is the nature of changes in video games and in general. You are more likely to see or be exposed to the hate than the love especially in this age of rage culture being popular. That being said we are in the first month of a new big expansions, there are going to be things people love and things people hate but it's up to us to give the feedback regardless to help this game keep rocking and rolling.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

3 of those are -damage boosts-.

I know some people like to say "Party Utility" when they really mean damage boosts, but that's damage. It's bottom line.

It's not utility.

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Would it help if people called it "party support"? Because I'm pretty that's what everybody means in this particular context. Any supportive action that affects one or more other party members, both damage and not-damage included.

I get where you're coming from, but I think you're in the minority here. "party utility" is generally going to refer to any and all supportive effects.

Can’t say I speak for anyone else but I don’t think is anyone is claiming there’s anything wrong with Bard’s damage dealing kit or mechanics. It’s just that it’s been gradually taking a U-Turn from a supportive job to a Black Mage / Samurai Style ‘selfish dps’, (which I believe is also the identity for Machinist), and with the removal of a slew of utility like Requiem / Role Skills / Double Minne Cooldown and even silly things like that 3% crit buff or the different Troubadour effects we haven’t been given anything new to fill those now blank ‘supportive’ ability slots. Personally I don’t think utility necessarily needs to be a straight up damage buff either I mean, everyone seems to really prefer the old Astrologian card effects to the straight up damage buffs.

The tl;dr is that I don’t think anyone is saying there are major issues with Bard’s damage dealing, just that the supportive aspect of the job is now feels lacking compared to before (not compared to Dancer)

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Originally Posted by Sinh119

Seemingly unpopular opinion here, but I’m really liking Summoner right now. I haven’t had any difficulty managing egi-assaults and I found I can pump out really good numbers. Phoenix is amazing to use, and I really like that using Ruin actually feels impactful now. My only complaint is that Demi-Bahamut feels a bit awkward to use, but overall I’m enjoying the changes. I’ve heard a lot of complaints about us being a ruin mage, about having to stare at the hotbar constantly, about having to work far harder for mediocre output etc... but I haven’t noticed any of those things. I don’t doubt that people are having issues with the job design this expansion, but I don’t think the negative feedback is as widespread as the official forums would have you believe for any job. Remember the official forums sole purpose is for feedback, so negative criticism is far more prominently featured than it would be on another medium.

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Have you played Summoner in high-end content? Against a target dummy the class is fine, but it struggles heavily against other things, such as boss mechanics. On Titania especially, the bars get massively delayed, and the class is punished massively for any and all movement it has to do because of how limited its ruin 4s are compared to just how much movement it has.

Any movement that happens outside of DWT is massively punished, and movement during DB or DP is extremely punished as well, through no fault of the summoner regardless of how well you position or play. Simply because the pet will move before it autos, and it will drop auto attacks because of this.

The class lacks real flow, and it comes out most once it's introduced into boss mechanics and you realize just why certain mechanics ruin its overall flow, and 60% of the problem is from cooldowns desyncing, 20% from DP/DB dropping autos, and the rest from spamming way too many oGCDs.

Hell, if you played the class you'd realize the natural place to use devotion is during DWT, but if you do, your next devotion is guaranteed to be during FBT, when you literally cannot use it because DP is up, forcing you to save the cooldown.

You can like the class, you can have fun with it, but I can guarantee you that you're being personally affected by all of these issues regardless of whether you realize it.