Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

A good or even decent Rabanastre usually takes 30ish minutes. I've spent over an hour in there on a few occasions because people have no idea what they're doing. In what universe have these players not wasted my time when replace them would speed up the raid by more than double?

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if Rabanastre is that easy to fill with competent people, you should be doing PF for it instead of DF.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

Are you joking? It is perfectly reasonable to expect people to behave as functioning and contributing members of a team. It's rather silly to say "some people will inevitably fail to meet what's expected of them, so you can't have any expectations of people anymore." You're not just lowering the bar, you're eliminating it. You are part of the problem.

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I'm not removing "the" bar, I'm raising "your" bar.

Tell me, what are you going to do about Johnny "only spams bootshine no matter what anyone says" Smith? Kick him from the party if you must, but you'll find complaining him out of existence to be unfruitful.

You were complaining a minute ago about players not having minimum understanding of the game when they queue for group content and went as far to say that they shouldnt queue. There is irony here in that you pug, but dont seem to have a minimum understand of what pugging is. By your own logic, you have no business pugging right?

Even if just 1% of the player population was a horror story, you are still subject to someone from that 1% becoming a party member should you decide to pug. In a pug, you have no control over who will be in your party and it is reasonable to expect that someone will not meet your expectations at sometime. Instead of whining about it on the forums, you can do something about by not pugging or by just accepting the fact that you will receive bad party members.

The pain is when the good players stop pugging and the less skilled are bereft of people to carry them, whining for nerfs happens and the game becomes even easier.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

If I can do 6 mins v1s runs vs 10 min ones, I lose 4 min right? I can do 5 runs instead 3. Farming- get stuff done soon as possible and get back in soon as possible. I can wipe to zurvan for 45 mins and get 1 kill, that's another waste of time. I'm pretty sure being killed by the boss mulitply times or kill the boss every 2-3 runs, hell even taking 5 min longer per fight is a waste of time.
You know, it's like what the person said ''its just a game not a job'' well figure it out, I work and I do other things EVERYDAY outside the game, I'm productive irl, so when I play the game I want to be productive too, because it's only a small time of my day that I can play. Trying doesn't make it a job, being better at the game doesnt make it a job, playing as a team member isnt job. What makes it a job is that I have to strive 3 times harder for the sake of the person whos unwilling to learn and try to get better

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whether you cleared 5x in an hour or wiped for the full hour, you were playing the same content you intended to play for 60 minutes. equating your game time to productivity makes it sound like you're treating it like a job and not a game.

you didn't lose 4 minutes you were still playing v1s. if productivity is the only thing that matters, don't do it with randoms. if you're not willing to put in the work to put together a group that gives you the amount of productivity you want, you can't expect that level of productivity.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Because you decided to feel that way.

Honestly, you can feel however you want to about anything. You can choose to tolerate or reject any behavior you feel like. I think the important thing to understand is that it's pretty unreasonable to expect random players who have different backgrounds, mmo experience, insecurity levels, etc to meet your personal minimum standards of performance and security 100% of the time. It's just not going to happen in a pug.

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It’s not exactly “high standards” to expect players to perform the bare minimum of their job or to hit more than just one button (see OP’s Butcher Block AND Butcher Block ONLY example).

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

whether you cleared 5x in an hour or wiped for the full hour, you were playing the same content you intended to play for 60 minutes. equating your game time to productivity makes it sound like you're treating it like a job and not a game.

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I’m sorry that I would like to have 5 clears in the span of an hour when I’m farming something, instead of just a singular clear. I’m also sorry that I don’t want to spend an entire lockout wiping to a fight that I am not progging but trying to farm instead of clearing it several times in the span of one total lockout. My bad. Productivity/Efficiency when it comes to clearing and farming content does not equate to treating the game like a job; it’s about making the most out of the time you have to play. For people farming, “making the most” out of their playtime is not getting a single clear in a span of 1 hour, but multiple clears.

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you didn't lose 4 minutes you were still playing v1s. if productivity is the only thing that matters, don't do it with randoms. if you're not willing to put in the work to put together a group that gives you the amount of productivity you want, you can't expect that level of productivity.

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You lose almost a full second run. V1S is easily downed in 5~6 minutes. Spending 10 minutes for one clear is a waste of almost an entire second clear. The idea of “putting a group together” can mean either a static, or a PF, where when you list something as a “farm”, there is a minimum expectation that the people joining are competent when it comes to clearing the content quickly and efficiently.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

whether you cleared 5x in an hour or wiped for the full hour, you were playing the same content you intended to play for 60 minutes. equating your game time to productivity makes it sound like you're treating it like a job and not a game.

you didn't lose 4 minutes you were still playing v1s. if productivity is the only thing that matters, don't do it with randoms. if you're not willing to put in the work to put together a group that gives you the amount of productivity you want, you can't expect that level of productivity.

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You clearly didnt get anything I said.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

whether you cleared 5x in an hour or wiped for the full hour, you were playing the same content you intended to play for 60 minutes. equating your game time to productivity makes it sound like you're treating it like a job and not a game.

you didn't lose 4 minutes you were still playing v1s. if productivity is the only thing that matters, don't do it with randoms. if you're not willing to put in the work to put together a group that gives you the amount of productivity you want, you can't expect that level of productivity.

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By that logic, I can spam Blizzard II endless and defend it through the nebulous term "fun". For a real life equivalent, are you content with someone randomly skating around in a hockey game—making little effort to actually score? Would criticising their lack of equal participation be turning hockey into a job?

And people do make their PFs. These players promptly join despite it clearly labeled "farm," thus applying a general expectation, which they ultimately fail at. So... what's the excuse then?

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Originally Posted by winsock

What you want is unreasonable to expect, so your argument is pointless.

As with any group-based activity in life, there is no guarantee that people for that group-based activity are going to have that minimum level of competency/contribution you are referring to; as such, it is unreasonable to expect a pug to possess this level of competence 100% of the time. If you cannot accept this truth of pugging, you have the option of not pugging.

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By the time players are reaching higher levels of content, it shouldn't be physically possible for my examples to reach that content without being hand held through it. I don't know how someone gets to Snowcloak with only butcher's block. I don't know how people make it into expert with only thunder IV. I don't know how I can get a healer that has full 340 in Shinryu EX, but barely heals anybody.

As I've stated already, I am NOT expecting some grand play. I just think it's terrible design for someone to be able to reach higher levels of content without pressing more than 1 button.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It’s not exactly “high standards” to expect players to perform the bare minimum of their job or to hit more than just one button (see OP’s Butcher Block AND Butcher Block ONLY example).

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Also This. ^ That's my expectation. Bare minimum of their job. I expect tanks to hold threat. I expect healers to keep everyone alive. I expect DPS to press DPS buttons. Mistakes happen and people aren't perfect, I get that. If you someone wants to explain to me though why pressing only Butcher's Block is super duper fun, I'd love to hear it. I like Dragon Kick on Monk a lot, but I don't spam it to death, because I'm gonna see my cool attack anyways doing combo's and just spamming it makes the fight take forever.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It’s not exactly “high standards” to expect players to perform the bare minimum of their job or to hit more than just one button (see OP’s Butcher Block AND Butcher Block ONLY example).

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It's not whether the standards are high or low, it's whether or not they are reasonable standards to hold everyone to.

Consider the following players:
A) experienced ffxiv tank rolls a new tank character on a new server
B) new ffxiv tank player, but veteran tank in countless mmos
C) veteran ffxiv player, but completely new to tanking
D) completely new to mmos
E) completely new to video games
^ these players will all be very different skill-wise at level 30.

Is it really that unreasonable for someone completely new to videogames to wrongly assume that "cooler animation" equals "unconditionally better"?
Is it really reasonable to expect that no one make that mistake?

Yet, they will likely all make it to lvl 30 because the game's bare minimum standards are not the same as your minimum standards.


And what are you going to do about it? Stop pugging? Kick from party and move on? or rant on the forums about the younger generation?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

f George Carlin: "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that".

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This is such an awesome quote, and totally apropos.

Im usually pretty hard on myself when it comes to my performance in games. I will take the criticism when it is given (usually don't get any ^^) but also hold my self to the standard of not being "that guy/gal" when I join a party. I usually announce that I haven't tanked/healed a dungeon/boss. No one is perfect and most normal people don't except perfect play.

It is very concerning how people can really be so horrid at MMOs. This game isn't really that hard most of the way though, and then certain challenges separate the men/women from the boys/girls. Titan EX being the first example.

People still have no idea what to do there and still refuse help/assistance when offered.