Dark Knight and Incoming Live Letter 4.2 on 12/15/17

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

I believe it's something like 20x 50 potency for Unleash, and 5x 120 potency for Abyssal. But yet again, it's an avenue Dark Knights must sacrifice their efficiency to even be at a baseline level with the other tanks.
One problem I just noticed over reading reactions on the Japanese tank forum, it is not that they feel differently about Dark Knight...on the contrary, almost every concern we have is echoed there in multiple Dark Knight threads. However the Warrior thread is a massive 401 pages and they seem to be rejoicing about 4.2 possibly addressing their "distinct gap beneath Paladin" without mentioning Dark Knight at all.

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Further evidence that the Japanese players are favored over everyone else, even though we're bigger by far. I hate being the step-child.

You're right, Power Slash is unique in that regard, but remember that Warriors and Paladins will be shoring up their own enmity (or creeping up on a poor Dark Knight) through repeated Circle of Scorns, Shield Swipes, Onslaughts, etc. Dark Knight relies on Power Slash, something they really don't want to use because its only effect is enmity. And it doesn't give back any resource like Butcher's Block either.

But I think you have a point, I feel like the way you're seeing the interaction between Dark Arts and the rest of Dark Knight's kit is how the development team might be considering it and intending it, too. This does not make for a coherent overall class, though.

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Originally Posted by Aana

TLDR: Drks base enmity is lower because they 'can' spike it to a whopping 3300 on a single GCD. ~1.7x more than halone or BB.

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It's not really 'whopping' once you consider that WAR and PLD have enmity multipliers outside of their actual enmity combo, and DRK doesn't. That 1650 enmity-potency they get from Dark Arts is pretty meager when you stack it up against a Warrior dealing 2600 enmity-potency in its opener with the two Onslaughts that are part of its max-DPS rotation, on top of an instant 600 enmity-potency on the pull using Equilibrium. That's twice the enmity that the DRK is getting from Dark Arts, and it's part of Warrior's optimum DPS opener. And DRK has to commit to losing 120 potency on a Power Slash combo before they even have the option to spend the additional 140 potency on DA Power Slash.

Paladin is at a pretty significant advantage in that field too; 450 enmity-potency from every Shield Swipe (usable potentially every 15 seconds), and 300 enmity-potency from every Circle of Scorn (25 seconds) starts to add up really quickly. It's basically the equivalent of the DRK getting that DA worth of enmity every minute or so - except, again, using those skills as often as possible is part of PLD's max-DPS rotation.


I don't think the idea of having to pay an opportunity cost for enmity is a bad one, or even really incompatible with the game's DPS-first/speedrun playstyle - but if only one class is really going to be forced to pay that opportunity cost, the cost needs to be lower, and/or the reward for doing so needs to be massively better in terms of enmity than what the other tanks can accomplish, not just "Yeah, it's kind of good sometimes if you tilt your head and squint."

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Originally Posted by Aana

SE decided to throw all their eggs in the dark arts basket. The theory actually sounds nice. Drk base capabilities are tuned lower than war/pld, but are handed this 1 size fits all tool dark arts. You control the flow to shore up any weakness on the fly in real time decisions. Need some HP? DAAD or DASE. Need some magic mitigation? DADM. Physical? DADP. Want some damage? DABS/DACS. Oh your enmity needs a boost: Power Slash (Dark Arts) 5.5x + Potency 1650 + 1650 Potency. (BB 1960, Halone 1890).

TLDR: Drks base enmity is lower because they 'can' spike it to a whopping 3300 on a single GCD. ~1.7x more than halone or BB. That's really insane. Also with no wind up combo like eye. Drk has serious enmity potential but its an opportunity cost. But with circle shirk and DPS meta its never worth doing. But that's essentially the same problem drk has in every category. DA makes up for drks individual weaknesses, but as a limited resource it cant fix everything at once so people just use it to equalize the damage and everything other facet suffers. In this case, enmity. In the next complaining post sustain. In the next mitigation. Etc. The tool cant handle everything it was envisioned to maintain simultaneously.

The real time flowing concept to put your resources where you need them when you need them into various mitigation, damage, sustain, enmity, etc is pretty sweet. The numbers+the DPS meta just don't play in its favor but its 'cool' imo.

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Actually the main issue "usually" is that it cuts into DPS.
Argueing threat vs mitigation usually isnt something most ppl worry too much about.

So technically the fix would be to make DA only affect DPS, and Blood Gauge ONLY affect threat/mitigation.
If your threat/mitigation gauge doesnt take away from ur DPS gauge, then the design of DRK stops being so bad.
Of course, now you need 2 different versions of Dark Arts, which is where the real problem lies next. (a lot less tidy than what they tried to do, despite being more effective)

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

You're right, Power Slash is unique in that regard, but remember that Warriors and Paladins will be shoring up their own enmity (or creeping up on a poor Dark Knight) through repeated Circle of Scorns, Shield Swipes, Onslaughts, etc. Dark Knight relies on Power Slash, something they really don't want to use because its only effect is enmity. And it doesn't give back any resource like Butcher's Block either.

But I think you have a point, I feel like the way you're seeing the interaction between Dark Arts and the rest of Dark Knight's kit is how the development team might be considering it and intending it, too. This does not make for a coherent overall class, though.

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Coherency is the problem.
"Hey guys, lets give DRK a skill that restores MP on being hit. But if they're being hit too hard let's take half of their MP to blind their enemies. Oh but then they won't be getting hit as much, so there's less MP regenerated... Well, they can just Soul Survivor a single enemy then! But that only lasts for ~15 seconds, if the target dies, every 120s. Oh I know then, let's add an MP Regen to Quietus! But that costs 50 blood. Oh, let's have Salted Earth passively generate 1 blood, and also Blood Price! But wait, if you use BP to generate blood, and MP, but you're blinding the enemies to avoid being hit that negatively impacts both resource generations... Well, our work here is done. Let's give WAR a party shield guys, that's where our work is needed most."

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

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Originally Posted by Crater

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Don't misunderstand. I'm not defending drks current lowered state, just describing what I 'think' the developers envisioned when they designed stormblood Drk.

War/Pld have regular tools to shore up enmity over time. Of course. But if drk 'wanted' to and just spam DA power slash they would easily outstrip both tanks enmity. Just like if they spam it for 30% magic resist they can out magic mitigate. Etc. But leaning that hard in a direction hurts you somewhere else. The design philosophy (as I see it) is Drk is the flexible class. But just like every other game the base efficiency of the real time flexible class/card/item is that it is weaker than a static unchanging equivalent and, just like those other games, buffing that type of flexibility can quickly get out of hand and explains (my guesstimate) as to why SE is so reluctant to buff drk.

But as it stands, that flexibility isn't a valuable trait so you just have a slightly weaker class.

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

But I think you have a point, I feel like the way you're seeing the interaction between Dark Arts and the rest of Dark Knight's kit is how the development team might be considering it and intending it, too. This does not make for a coherent overall class, though.

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Basically that. I'm not saying drk is fine. I'm saying the 'cool' concept the devs came up with is falling flat in practice. Drks higher potential enmity falling apart in practice is just a clear example of that for me. But its the same story for every facet of drk. DA and TBN being highly flexible 1 size fits all tools is also the reason drk cant keep up. They have to pick 1 thing to lean into making it a game of scarcity instead of gameplay focused on directing your flow in real time as it was (probably) intended.

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Originally Posted by Crater

It's not really 'whopping' once you consider that WAR and PLD have enmity multipliers outside of their actual enmity combo, and DRK doesn't. That 1650 enmity-potency they get from Dark Arts is pretty meager when you stack it up against a Warrior dealing 2600 enmity-potency in its opener with the two Onslaughts that are part of its max-DPS rotation, on top of an instant 600 enmity-potency on the pull using Equilibrium. That's twice the enmity that the DRK is getting from Dark Arts, and it's part of Warrior's optimum DPS opener. And DRK has to commit to losing 120 potency on a Power Slash combo before they even have the option to spend the additional 140 potency on DA Power Slash.

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You're comparing a powered up 1 GCD attack to a 30 or 60 sec sequence of attacks.. Of course the grand total is going to favor the longer duration.

Neither Rage of Halone or Butcher's Block are optimal for DPS, so it follows that Power Slash wouldn't be either. IMO comparing DRK's enmity combo to the other tanks oGCDs that generate enmity is a bit disingenuous. Apples to oranges. The rate at which you could use DAPS is much, much higher than either of the other tanks can use those oGCDs. And it's twice as effective, right? So they'd only need to do it half as much (in a situation where'd we'd have to actually spam hate combo, which, I guess unfortunately for DRK doesn't exist).

I previously worked up some math before on butchers vs halone, I mean everyone talks about how bad it is for PLD to use Halone so I just wanted to get an idea. But aside from the difference in raw combo damage, and I think this is applicable to DRK as well, the MP cost is something that Warrior simply doesn't have to worry about. At the end of the day, just let the war MT. They are obviously designed for it, which is quite possibly the best thing for both PLD and DRK currently.

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Originally Posted by Aana

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Yes, this is the risk reward issue at the heart of dark knight. You decide in real time what to spend your resources on, and its limited. I agree 100% and you are spot on the issue, the reward is too low. We cannot be break even in all areas because if we need to invest in one direction to break even with all other tanks, then we will be short in all areas once we invest towards anything else. This is 100% the issue. This is my issue with TBN, our mitigation, and our DPS everything dark knight. I'm just really happy for this moment.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Neither Rage of Halone or Butcher's Block are optimal for DPS, so it follows that Power Slash wouldn't be either. IMO comparing DRK's enmity combo to the other tanks oGCDs that generate enmity is a bit disingenuous. Apples to oranges.

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Okay but if I only have a stack of apples, and you have a stack of apples and a stack of oranges, and presumably we want things to be "fair", then at the very least, my stack of apples needs to be as big as your stack of apples combined with your stack of oranges. Right?

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Originally Posted by Crater

Okay but if I only have a stack of apples, and you have a stack of apples and a stack of oranges, and presumably we want things to be "fair", then at the very least, my stack of apples needs to be as big as your stack of apples combined with your stack of oranges. Right?

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I would rather they just give dark some oranges. Salted Earth seems like a good place, who doesn't like salty oranges.