Tank Stances, Traited

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's more complicated than that. The main point is not that tanks can survive without the tank stance, but that, by staying in tank stance, they reduce their DPS, thus, the overall raid DPS, for a surplus of mitigation that don't really impact healing requirements.
The idea behind a stronger tank stance is mainly to create a larger gap between healing a DPS-stance tank or a tank-stance tank, to the point that what DPS the tank loses is compensated by what DPS the healers can afford.

And you could also increase enemy damage so that keeping a tank alive in tank stance would stlll not be trivial.

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The problem with your idea Reynhart, is that to make damage consistently dangerous to a tank that is getting -50% damage, you are making everything absolutely DEADLY to everyone else who would get near an attack from that same boss.
This is a horrible way to balance the tanks, and to encourage tank stances...

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Originally Posted by Selova

Terrible idea. Part of the fun of tanking is switching between the two stances

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Not for every player, and like Shao32 said, we're not "stance dancing" anyway.

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Originally Posted by frostmagemari

The problem with your idea Reynhart, is that to make damage consistently dangerous to a tank that is getting -50% damage, you are making everything absolutely DEADLY to everyone else who would get near an attack from that same boss.

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Other jobs are not supposed to take hits directly from the boss, so I'd say it's not really relevant (And frankly, direct hits are already deadly). AoEs are rarely dangerous by themselves for tanks, even out of tank stance, because the gap in HP means that if the tank dies, everybody else will.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Other jobs are not supposed to take hits directly from the boss, so I'd say it's not really relevant (And frankly, direct hits are already deadly). AoEs are rarely dangerous by themselves for tanks, even out of tank stance, because the gap in HP means that if the tank dies, everybody else will.

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But you want to up the damage from the boss to make things dangerous for them even if they have the -50% damage reduction. YOUR criteria make the AoE's dangerous to the tanks because YOU want the boss to still be dangerous at -50% damage reduction. YOUR criteria makes it so that any attack by the boss (AoE or not) is dangerous to the tank, which makes those attacks deadly against non tanks.
At least stay consistent with your own idea instead of dancing around; you can't voice and idea for something and then when someone pokes holes in your idea, you retreat back to the current way things operate to defend yourself.

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Originally Posted by frostmagemari

At least stay consistent with your own idea instead of dancing around; you can't voice and idea for something and then when someone pokes holes in your idea, you retreat back to the current way things operate to defend yourself.

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I am, just go look at page 3 on this very thread:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The problem with the tank stance is that its effect is too low, so you can afford to skip it significantly. If you want to remove stance dancing, (which is basically what would happend with tank traits), just make tank stance reduce damage by 50% (Or doubles WAR's HP/healing received) and increase single target and cleave damage from bosses, while not touching raidwide damage.

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And, again, current direct hits and cleave are already deadly for non tanks.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And, again, current direct hits and cleave are already deadly for non tanks.

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No, they are not. They are DANGEROUS but only deadly if the dps/healer does not move away. Under your "ideas", stepping anywhere close would be an insta-gib to anyone but the tank.

Furthermore, you can't only increase single target/cleave damage, because if you only increase the single target damage that trivializes all other damage and a tank can just ignore mechanics.
Seriously.. your ideas DO NOT work. They do not even work within the confines of their own described situation.

To be fair this a dead horse, SE has no real viable option to make tank stance worth a damn in this game. The game has been based around tank busters for far too long to switch things up now. If you want to play a tank with the mindset of having to always watch aggro and were auto attacks hit are not fluff dmg, think it is time for you to find a new game.

People enjoy the tanking aspect of this game, if you do not stop trying to change it and just move on and find a new game.

Tank stance will never be a thing, unless they do a complete overall on encounter design and damage output. Which I do not see that happening no matter how much Yoshi hates the idea of tanking in dps stances, even he knows that they have no viable way to force tank stance.

What I mean by tank stance will never be a thing is that while you can stay in tank stance, but just prepare to get shit for it that is all, so if you want to use tank stance just use it, but do not force it on every other tank player.

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Originally Posted by frostmagemari

They are DANGEROUS but only deadly if the dps/healer does not move away.

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If you're targeted by a cleave, a tankbuster or another big hit like tail swipe, you can't just move away. And if you're talking about marked attacks, since when are they "single target attacks, direct hits or cleaves" ?

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Originally Posted by frostmagemari

Furthermore, you can't only increase single target/cleave damage, because if you only increase the single target damage that trivializes all other damage and a tank can just ignore mechanics.

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No, it doesn't work that way. First of all, most of the time damage is not the main issue with mechanics. You still won't want any vulnerability debuff, or being frozen, and basically any avoidable damage you chose to ignore will just put more unecessary stress on your healer. What makes damage from AoE dangerous for the tank is that most of the time you've already lost lots of HP with single target hits.

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Originally Posted by Awha

The game has been based around tank busters for far too long to switch things up now.

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You don't have to change this pattern. Again, the main issue is that the difference between healing a tank in tank stance and healing a tank in DPS stance is too small. Make this difference higher and you'll change how much healer can DPS to compensate what the tank loses.

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Originally Posted by Awha

People enjoy the tanking aspect of this game, if you do not stop trying to change it and just move on and find a new game.

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Not all of them, so there's no reason that this should the only effective way of tanking, especially when the dev team has stated that this is not what they have in mind when they design content.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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Here is the thing even the developers you have been on record saying they dislike the idea behind tanks tanking in a dps stance, have yet to do anything to really change that aspect of the game, in fact one could say they made it easier. So clearly even they know that their options are rather limited. Clearly not everyone enjoys the current tanking setup, but I am willing to guess those people are in the minority, and even so nothing in game wise is preventing people from tanking in a tank stance, yet your idea is to make it so the game forces a certain playstyle on tanks.

I said ingame, player ideals can be ignored, ingame mechanics not so much. So you are okay with the game forcing players to play the game a certain way all because you dislike the idea behind tanks be able to tank in dps stance? As it stands now players have the choice to tank in either stance, if they go through with your idea you are limiting the options of players.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Clearly not everyone enjoys the current tanking setup, but I am willing to guess those people are in the minority

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Considering that stance dancing is only meaningful in Savage content, the majority of the people absolutely don't care. We're two minorities, and we don't have enough sample to prove who likes it and who doesn't, considering the game currently doesn't give you much of a choice. (For example, I don't like but I do it because not doing it is currently holding back my team)

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Originally Posted by Awha

And even so nothing in game wise is preventing people from tanking in a tank stance, yet your idea is to make it so the game forces a certain playstyle on tanks.

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No, it doesn't. It only widens the healing requirements. Technicaly, you don't necessarily have to increase any boss damage, because, even if your tank is harder to kill, it won't change the mechanics you have to deal with and the raid DPS you need to achieve to beat enrage. It would just shift a portion of the DPS from the main tank to a healer. I personally feel that with a 100% DPS stance tank, a healer should have very little room to DPS, thus why I think a little increase boss in damage could be done, but it's not my main concern.

This way, you could pair "turtle tanks" with "healers who love to DPS" and "aggressive tanks" with "healers who don't want DPS", making room for each divisive playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If you're targeted by a cleave, a tankbuster or another big hit like tail swipe, you can't just move away. And if you're talking about marked attacks, since when are they "single target attacks, direct hits or cleaves" ?

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i don't know if you're willfully ignorant or if it just comes natural.
I'm not talking about marked attacks.
A single cleave or swipe is not going to be fatal to any player, but repeatedly standing the area in which those occur will be. That is what i meant by "if they do not move away"
I did not think i needed to explain this, but i apparently i have to to you.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, it doesn't work that way. First of all, most of the time damage is not the main issue with mechanics. You still won't want any vulnerability debuff, or being frozen, and basically any avoidable damage you chose to ignore will just put more unecessary stress on your healer. What makes damage from AoE dangerous for the tank is that most of the time you've already lost lots of HP with single target hits.

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So, in your mind.. if it doesn't debuff in some way, not moving out of the AoE and just keeping swinging because it isn't going to do any damage to you (especially if you increase the prevented damage via tank stance but don't increase AoE damage) isn't ignoring a mechanic?
And you can't tell me that you would still want to avoid it, because you wouldn't. You wouldn't have to put in the effort because the damage it does to you would be negligible, and the tanking community has already shown that if the damage incurred is negligible, they would prefer to dps over mitigate (that's how this whole discussion got started because tanks would rather have higher constant dps than higher mitigation at the cost of dps).